IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th August 2022, 07:18 PM   #241
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,487
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The question was framed as a daughter trying unsuccessfully to find good work. You really wouldn't offer any suggestions at all to help her, adult or no? I find that hard to believe.
If she asked, I would of course provide my opinion. Unsolicited? No.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Hm. My wife is pretty open about tipping me off to opportunities. You don't work as a team like that? I thought it was pretty normal when sharing a life together.

I recall no such agreement. I super duper don't recall anything about lying. Assuming that no such explicit agreement was undertaken, she would not be involved in any purely mechanical sex with someone else then, yes?
Your marriage does not include an agreement to monogamy? Most do, but open marriages are certainly possible. With such an arrangement it's even more important to discuss and agree to the circumstances under which you will engage in sexual activity with other people. You are, after all, as you say, a team.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again with the contractual agreement that didn't happen. I recall a state license that I had to agree to....um...nothing to get, except a signature and fee. Then there was some excessively vague language in a church with a priest, more about lifelong fidelity than occasional mechanical pipe laying. If you could clarify those T&Cs, I'd appreciate it. If you made them up, we can give it a pass.
It's important to realise that a marriage license is a legally binding contract, the breach of which the state recognises as cause for annulment.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dodge noted. The specific scenarios are just concrete illustration. Some of us prefer that to speaking like a technical manual.
Not a dodge, just a refusal to engage with increasingly implausible hypotheticals.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I am asking, clearly and repeatedly, how and where the lines are drawn. You seem to have one set with a spouse/partner as a third involved party. Based on your consenting adult standard, I don't see why that would come into play. The wife is not a party to the hummer.
Are you and your wife not a team? Are there other things that you're keeping from her? Full and open communication is the most important factor in a healthy relationship, whether formalised by marriage or not. In fact, I think lack of communication is probably the most common reason for relationships to falter.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Society disagrees with you. It sets down laws so that you don't have to give murder or robbery a whirl on your personal learning curve. Some acts don't need to be privately tested at the expense of others.
Right, but legal prostitution, by definition, does not fall under similar laws. It falls under different laws. Your society doesn't agree with me, that is true, since you do not have legal prostitution, and in the extremely limited location where you do, those laws are badly written and worsely executed. But my society has decided that the harms of illegal prostitution far outweigh the harms of legalising it.

Remember, prostitution does not simply have laws legalising it. There are also laws about how, when and where it can be practiced. There are regulations in place specifically to allow brothels to operate under safe working conditions. It's not just "okay it's legal now do whatever". You've got to do it according to the rules.
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 08:56 PM   #242
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section)
Posts: 19,526
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If she asked, I would of course provide my opinion. Unsolicited? No.
Great. So the question is, if your daughter was asking for advice on finding a job to make some bill-paying cash, would you suggest prostitution? You present it here as a great way to make stellar cash with little to no experience, on your own terms. So it's a natural suggestion, yes?

Quote:
Your marriage does not include an agreement to monogamy? Most do, but open marriages are certainly possible. With such an arrangement it's even more important to discuss and agree to the circumstances under which you will engage in sexual activity with other people. You are, after all, as you say, a team.
No such T&C came up, as you present it. You could argue that it is culturally implied that we would be monogamous. In fact, in terms of the State, that's pretty much all there is. A vague sort of 'everybody knows that', and court precedent supporting it.

But without any expressed agreement, the wife is not part of any prostitution arrangement by your criteria. Consent between the parties, of which the uninvolved wife is not one, in this purely impersonal act. No?

Quote:
It's important to realise that a marriage license is a legally binding contract, the breach of which the state recognises as cause for annulment.
Not sure how enforcable any contract would be without disclosed and agreed terms in the States. Pretty sure we are relying on 'everybody knows what the terms are' thinking. Yet the way you describe it, it;s nowhere near as cut and dry.

So you claim the wife is an interested party in this sex she is not having. Ok. Should the clients of prostitutes have to demonstrate spousal agreement/approval? If not, wouldn't the brothel be contributing to marital discord? Again, trying to work out whether this is a net social benefit. There is a lot of portrayal here of the Happy Hooker and her Jolly John, but I have the feeling this is not the case.

Quote:
Not a dodge, just a refusal to engage with increasingly implausible hypotheticals.
Totes a dodge. Eliminate any hypothetical structure, if you like. So:

Is impersonal felatio between close family members acceptable? Why not, if acceptable between complete strangers on a transactional basis?

Quote:
Are you and your wife not a team? Are there other things that you're keeping from her? Full and open communication is the most important factor in a healthy relationship, whether formalised by marriage or not. In fact, I think lack of communication is probably the most common reason for relationships to falter.
I don't recall saying I was keeping anything from my wife. I'm asking you what the terms of your views on extracurricular sex are. So far, you have said anything goes between consenting adults. I would say that the age could be dropped to Age of Consent, bringing the game down to a couple 14 year olds in my US State (i recall that NZ has no specific prohibition against clients under 18, but above the AoC). Except if you are married, then you have to clear it with your honey? And again, if the brothel is dealing with consenting adults, shouldn't the spouse be signing off?

Quote:
Right, but legal prostitution, by definition, does not fall under similar laws. It falls under different laws. Your society doesn't agree with me, that is true, since you do not have legal prostitution, and in the extremely limited location where you do, those laws are badly written and worsely executed. But my society has decided that the harms of illegal prostitution far outweigh the harms of legalising it.
and that's why I'd like some data points on the clients, who don't get mentioned except to say they are consenting adults. Kind of like to know if legalized prostitution is damaging marriages, but being swept aside amidst the pom-poms for rights of progressive sex workers being championed.

Quote:
Remember, prostitution does not simply have laws legalising it. There are also laws about how, when and where it can be practiced. There are regulations in place specifically to allow brothels to operate under safe working conditions. It's not just "okay it's legal now do whatever". You've got to do it according to the rules.
Well...yeah, but that goes for, like...anything. Drink and drive according to the rules and no one gets hurt. But we try to weigh out in advance what is our societal net positive, to determine legality.

So far, from within and without the forum, we have only untoward tales of clients. But not exactly a powerhouse database yet. Do you have any information about the average client? Or is the claim of the benefits of legalization kind of one-sided?
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 09:09 PM   #243
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So far, from within and without the forum, we have only untoward tales of clients. But not exactly a powerhouse database yet. Do you have any information about the average client? Or is the claim of the benefits of legalization kind of one-sided?
...which information about an "average client" do you think we need to know as part of this discussion, and how exactly is that information relevant? And who is claiming the benefits of legalization are "kind of one-sided?"
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 09:24 PM   #244
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section)
Posts: 19,526
banquetbear. when you troll this blatantly...

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...You just want to have guilt-free sex with your wife's sister, and you are pretending that this is "sex work" so that you don't have to deal with the trauma...

...But you are content to fantasize about it on a public message board...
...you really shouldn't expect responses.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 09:43 PM   #245
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...you really shouldn't expect responses.
...not trolling at all.

Those were pretty strange things to be posting on a public message board. None of it had anything to do with legalizing sex work. But if you do decide to share those sorts of things with everyone else here: you really should expect those sorts of responses.

You've taken this thread into the realms of the bizarre. Who cares if you want to rub your sister in law's sore shoulders? That has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 10:33 PM   #246
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,487
Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
You've taken this thread into the realms of the bizarre. Who cares if you want to rub your sister in law's sore shoulders? That has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I completely agree.
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.