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Old 10th August 2022, 02:30 PM   #161
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Who makes up these rules? There is no argument that God gave no free will whatsoever.

I have no time for the notion of God giving man free will.

God supposedly makes all the souls in his soul factory, before they get stuck onto humans, at whatever stage of maturity, the religious think is correct. The maker of the soul is responsible for the ultimate result.
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Old 10th August 2022, 03:59 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have no time for the notion of God giving man free will.

God supposedly makes all the souls in his soul factory, before they get stuck onto humans, at whatever stage of maturity, the religious think is correct. The maker of the soul is responsible for the ultimate result.
We have not got souls:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2011/...-to-quran.html

Peace
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Old 10th August 2022, 04:07 PM   #163
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Emre_1974, please answer the following posts:

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
So it's okay to kill someone because they might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might.
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, there he is a servant directly commissioned by God. It's just like the angels of death. Or doomsday workers.

Otherwise, nobody can slap anybody for their faith:


https://www.answering-christianity.c...p?topic=3774.0
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Who brought up slapping?

Your post does nothing to counter the fact that it's okay to kill someone because they might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might.

I'm not going to go to all the sites that you post. I went to one and that's more than enough.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:20 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have no time for the notion of God giving man free will.
You have no time for the notion of a god at all (other than to conclude that there is no such thing).

The idea that a fictional god can not create people with free will is just silly. Like I say, who makes up these rules?
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Old 11th August 2022, 03:59 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Please explain. I'm not clicking your link.
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Old 11th August 2022, 07:17 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You have no time for the notion of a god at all (other than to conclude that there is no such thing).

The idea that a fictional god can not create people with free will is just silly. Like I say, who makes up these rules?
I see no good reason why a fictional god, or a real one for that matter, could not create people with free will. It seems fundamentally easy to do so. A god can promise anything and any god worthy of the name will make good on it. My argument is, and always has been, that I think the personal, intervening, miracle-producing god that many religions describe has not done this.
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Old 11th August 2022, 08:15 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I see no good reason why a fictional god, or a real one for that matter, could not create people with free will. It seems fundamentally easy to do so. A god can promise anything and any god worthy of the name will make good on it. My argument is, and always has been, that I think the personal, intervening, miracle-producing god that many religions describe has not done this.
If God has not created people with free will then that means that he has programmed every single choice that every individual ever made and will ever make. It means that he created many people for the sole purpose of subjecting them to non-stop infinite torture for all eternity. That sounds rather despicable.

However, I suspect that your reasoning is the reverse of this. It seems like you have decided that God is despicable therefore he did not give people free will.
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Old 11th August 2022, 11:16 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You complete clot head, you rely on a book of nonsense. You say our bodies will be recreated either in heaven or hell on judgement day. But there are a million holes in that theory. For example what happens to a baby that dies, it cannot be judged because it has done nothing. Also would it be reborn as a baby then grow up in the afterlife?. Then there is the problem that if we live for eternity in our physical bodies we would not have enough brain cells to build new memories. Consider if our reanimated self lives for thousands of years, but the brain can only remember the first few hundred years then the memory cells would all be used up.

I am telling you that after many years of receiving messages from my departed relatives, they are alive and well and living in their spirit bodies.

You have been duped by the lies of Muhammad.

There is no heaven or hell, and there will be no judgement day, there is only our state of mind. We evolve over many lifetimes, and ascend to heightened state of evolution where our consciousness rises above the mundane.

Throw away the unholy Quran and study Buddhism or the Upanishads for a change.
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Old 11th August 2022, 11:22 AM   #169
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Old 11th August 2022, 11:26 AM   #170
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Can a Christian please resolve fro me whether you go to Heaven why you die (as JC told the pair He was hanging around with) or do you have to wait around for Judgement Day as The Book of Revelation somewhat inarticulately informs us?
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:09 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You complete clot head, you rely on a book of no.
1- Guilt needs proof, but innocence does not. So babies go to Paradise.

2- The brain and body live forever healthy and young. Even in our mortal universe there are living beings who can remain eternally young. Moreover, the Hereafter Universe, called the Lord's Floor, has different physical laws. The only immortal universe is on the Lord's Floor. It is the only universe that will not be destroyed by the Big Crunch and the living beings and planets in it will remain alive forever as described in the verses.

3- I know all of your spiritist perverted teachings in depth. Why are you postponing the exorcism session to get the demons out of you? You yourself admitted that you have thousands of demons with hot energy inside your body. Also, those so-called spirits you are seeing are demons.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 11th August 2022 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:38 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- Guilt needs proof, but innocence does not. So babies go to Paradise.

2- The brain and body live forever healthy and young. Even in our mortal universe there are living beings who can remain eternally young. Moreover, the Hereafter Universe, called the Lord's Floor, has different physical laws. The only immortal universe is on the Lord's Floor. It is the only universe that will not be destroyed by the Big Crunch and the living beings and planets in it will remain alive forever as described in the verses.

3- I know all of your spiritist perverted teachings in depth. Why are you postponing the exorcism session to get the demons out of you? You yourself admitted that you have thousands of demons with hot energy inside your body. Also, those so-called spirits you are seeing are demons.
Everything you believe is a lie. Mohammad carried out one of the greatest crimes against humanity in human history by creating and spreading his cult. The world would be a better place if he had never existed.
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:18 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If God has not created people with free will then that means that he has programmed every single choice that every individual ever made and will ever make. It means that he created many people for the sole purpose of subjecting them to non-stop infinite torture for all eternity. That sounds rather despicable.

However, I suspect that your reasoning is the reverse of this. It seems like you have decided that God is despicable therefore he did not give people free will.
Not quite.

My assumption is that an all-powerful god of the Jehovah sort, a creator who is, as many Bible followers claim, omni-everything, would be, at the moment of creation, eternal and all knowing, and thus essentially deterministic in a way that (because he's God and knows everything) excludes free will, unless he makes it a precondition of a particular item of creation. But he could endow people with free will at any time. He's God, for God's sake! But whether baked in or given later, I think in inherently contains a promise of "hands off" in life. Expulsions from the garden, floods, suspension of physical law, miracles, etc. all serve to remind us that we're only as free as the invisible hand on the helm wants us to be.

Although it's head of a pin sophistry to argue whether God can create a stone too heavy to lift, I think he can make a promise that is close enough to one he cannot break. Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"

I could hardly think that God is despicable, since I don't think there is one anyway, but I think if there were a God of the sort usually meant when that word is used, he'd probably be just fine. And assuming that god made a world with some purpose other than just looking at himself in the mirror and knowing what's there anyway, I think free will would be an essential ingredient. I just don't think such a god is the one described in the Bible and worshiped by most churches. That one meddles.
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:35 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Can a Christian please resolve fro me whether you go to Heaven why you die (as JC told the pair He was hanging around with) or do you have to wait around for Judgement Day as The Book of Revelation somewhat inarticulately informs us?
I'm not a Christian, but I understand that the idea is that the body 'sleeps' in the ground, while the soul may or may not be in heaven. On Judgement Day, body and soul are reunited on earth. It's a mish-mash of ancient Jewish and pagan ideas about the after-life.
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:36 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not quite.

My assumption is that an all-powerful god of the Jehovah sort, a creator who is, as many Bible followers claim, omni-everything, would be, at the moment of creation, eternal and all knowing, and thus essentially deterministic in a way that (because he's God and knows everything) excludes free will, unless he makes it a precondition of a particular item of creation. But he could endow people with free will at any time. He's God, for God's sake! But whether baked in or given later, I think in inherently contains a promise of "hands off" in life. Expulsions from the garden, floods, suspension of physical law, miracles, etc. all serve to remind us that we're only as free as the invisible hand on the helm wants us to be.

Although it's head of a pin sophistry to argue whether God can create a stone too heavy to lift, I think he can make a promise that is close enough to one he cannot break. Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"

I could hardly think that God is despicable, since I don't think there is one anyway, but I think if there were a God of the sort usually meant when that word is used, he'd probably be just fine. And assuming that god made a world with some purpose other than just looking at himself in the mirror and knowing what's there anyway, I think free will would be an essential ingredient. I just don't think such a god is the one described in the Bible and worshiped by most churches. That one meddles.
Has anybody in this thread actually explained what they mean by non-deterministic free will? Deterministic with some quantum RNG thrown in? Is there something less noble about a process where our decisions are entirely deterministic, vs one where they are a combination of deterministic and random chance?
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:39 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
and;


https://www.answering-christianity.c...p?topic=3772.0
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:41 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"
That reminds me of this story:
https://storiesforpreaching.com.au/s...you-a-rowboat/

A very religious man was once caught in rising floodwaters. He climbed onto the roof of his house and trusted God to rescue him. A neighbour came by in a canoe and said, “The waters will soon be above your house. Hop in and we’ll paddle to safety.”

“No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

A short time later the police came by in a boat. “The waters will soon be above your house. Hop in and we’ll take you to safety.”

“No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

A little time later a rescue services helicopter hovered overhead, let down a rope ladder and said. “The waters will soon be above your house. Climb the ladder and we’ll fly you to safety.”

“No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

All this time the floodwaters continued to rise, until soon they reached above the roof and the religious man drowned. When he arrived at heaven he demanded an audience with God. Ushered into God’s throne room he said, “Lord, why am I here in heaven? I prayed for you to save me, I trusted you to save me from that flood.”

“Yes you did my child” replied the Lord. “And I sent you a canoe, a boat and a helicopter. But you never got in.”


If God sets things up to give us options, whether via natural means or through miracles, is that violating free-will?
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Old 11th August 2022, 04:25 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If God has not created people with free will then that means that he has programmed every single choice that every individual ever made and will ever make. It means that he created many people for the sole purpose of subjecting them to non-stop infinite torture for all eternity. That sounds rather despicable.

However, I suspect that your reasoning is the reverse of this. It seems like you have decided that God is despicable therefore he did not give people free will.
Amusing but misses reality. There is no god and the Universe works at random.
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Old 11th August 2022, 06:33 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
And the sad? amazing? amusing? thing is that Epicurus figured this out over 2000 years ago and idiots have been missing the point ever since.
The most common out I see from apologist is to grasp the second horn of this...tetralemma? and suggest that the evil that exists in the world is, in fact, just the condign amount of evil we deserve.

The next most common is to grasp the first horn and say that God does everything He can to prevent evil, but is helpless against the iron chariots of human free will, so we shouldn't hold the evil that happens against Him.

The *next* most common is No True Evil.

There are others, and mixed forms of the above. Apologetics may not be very cogent or convincing, but it *is* inventive, or at least, prolific.
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Old 11th August 2022, 06:42 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not quite.

My assumption is that an all-powerful god of the Jehovah sort, a creator who is, as many Bible followers claim, omni-everything, would be, at the moment of creation, eternal and all knowing, and thus essentially deterministic in a way that (because he's God and knows everything) excludes free will, unless he makes it a precondition of a particular item of creation. But he could endow people with free will at any time. He's God, for God's sake! But whether baked in or given later, I think in inherently contains a promise of "hands off" in life. Expulsions from the garden, floods, suspension of physical law, miracles, etc. all serve to remind us that we're only as free as the invisible hand on the helm wants us to be.

Although it's head of a pin sophistry to argue whether God can create a stone too heavy to lift, I think he can make a promise that is close enough to one he cannot break. Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"

I could hardly think that God is despicable, since I don't think there is one anyway, but I think if there were a God of the sort usually meant when that word is used, he'd probably be just fine. And assuming that god made a world with some purpose other than just looking at himself in the mirror and knowing what's there anyway, I think free will would be an essential ingredient. I just don't think such a god is the one described in the Bible and worshiped by most churches. That one meddles.
You are starting to remind me of that poster who thinks "free will" means freedom from all suffering. You are deliberately so all over the place that it is impossible to tell what you truly believe. Your rules change from sentence to sentence.

Whatever the "true" nature of the God described in the bible, you have failed to demonstrate that the bible says God did not create people with free will (or did). "Meddling" has nothing to do with free will.
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Old 11th August 2022, 07:24 PM   #181
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Emre_1974, you have posted three time after I have. Because you have willfully ignored both mine and Darat's posts I would like to thank you for confirming that it ok to kill people that might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might cause someone to disbelieve. That sounds evil. I think getting rid of the Quran will help answer the problem of evil.
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Old 11th August 2022, 11:26 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You have no time for the notion of a god at all (other than to conclude that there is no such thing).

The idea that a fictional god can not create people with free will is just silly. Like I say, who makes up these rules?

So, silly is it?

I think it silly to believe a god can make a dodgy soul, that can make the wrong decisions (using said free will) and then hold the soul owner responsible.
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Old Yesterday, 12:51 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So, silly is it?
Yes. Any rule that says you are allowed to imagine a god exists but you are not allowed to imagine that he gave people free will is silly in the extreme.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think it silly to believe a god can make a dodgy soul, that can make the wrong decisions (using said free will) and then hold the soul owner responsible.
People make bad choices all the time - even when they know that the likely consequences will be bad. If somebody killed a loved one of yours, you would not argue that they should get off scott free because they didn't really have free will.
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Old Yesterday, 02:11 AM   #184
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Again;

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, there he is a servant directly commissioned by God. It's just like the angels of death. Or doomsday workers.

Otherwise, nobody can slap anybody for their faith:


https://www.answering-christianity.c...p?topic=3774.0
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Old Yesterday, 03:19 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Again;
Right back at you again, again and again:

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
My Turkish article translated with machine:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611966.0

Peace
I was bored so...

"....his world is the realm of testing, of confronting oneself, and it is also the place where some small punishments or rewards begin to be offered. And every adversity or happiness that happens in this world functions both as a test and as a way of giving the person what they deserve. ..."
Three year old girl, raped multiple times and beheaded: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/so...-girl-in-india

What lesson was she learning, what testing was she undergoing, how did she deserve to be raped and killed?
What lesson was the 3 year old who was raped and then beheaded being taught?
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Old Yesterday, 04:04 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes. Any rule that says you are allowed to imagine a god exists but you are not allowed to imagine that he gave people free will is silly in the extreme.

.
But we are not allowed to imagine just any god,. we are being told exactly what kind of God to believe in, and in the case of Christianity, it's one that has a take-it-or-leave-it attitude towards Free Will.
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Old Yesterday, 08:06 AM   #187
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Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM   #188
Gord_in_Toronto
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
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Old Yesterday, 07:34 PM   #189
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
1- Guilt needs proof, but innocence does not. So babies go to Paradise.

2- The brain and body live forever healthy and young. Even in our mortal universe there are living beings who can remain eternally young. Moreover, the Hereafter Universe, called the Lord's Floor, has different physical laws. The only immortal universe is on the Lord's Floor. It is the only universe that will not be destroyed by the Big Crunch and the living beings and planets in it will remain alive forever as described in the verses.
.

You don't know these things, you are just making them up. As far as I know there is nothing in the Quran about what happens to babies when they die.
Will they grow up to maturity in the afterlife? if so what if they are evil and do bad things, will they remain in paradise? Even if they do will they ever be happy considering they are untried and untested and have had no experience of life?

Nor do I think is there anything about beings remaining eternally young.

If the Quran is what you believe in you have to stick to what it says and not make stuff up.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old Yesterday, 07:45 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Again;
Again:
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Who brought up slapping?

Your post does nothing to counter the fact that it's okay to kill someone because they might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might.

I'm not going to go to all the sites that you post. I went to one and that's more than enough.
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Old Today, 02:33 AM   #191
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You don't knA.
I said it all from the Quran. You don't know the Quran or scientific developments.

You are a pagan who is a prisoner of the demons inside and around you. (You said yourself that you allow demons with hot energy to enter your body, also, the spirits you say you see/speaking all the time are really demons.).

Peace

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; Today at 03:31 AM.
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Old Today, 03:31 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I said it all from the Quran. You don't know the Quran or scientific developments.

You are a pagan who is a prisoner of the demons inside and around you. (You said yourself that you allow demons with hot energy to enter your body).

Peace
Funny stuff. It's all the made up story of a corrupt trader with deviant sexual interests.
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Old Today, 05:20 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If somebody killed a loved one of yours, you would not argue that they should get off scott free because they didn't really have free will.
How do you know that? Are you saying people act totally predictably?

Really having free will includes arguing that a killer should indeed get off 'Scott free' even though your emotions are crying out for blood. It doesn't mean only doing what psionl0 expects you to do - because that wouldn't be free will at all. It would prove that you are just a mechanism whose actions can be accurately predicted by your nature and environment.

According to the story God gave man free will, then got upset when he asserted it.

"I'm not a control freak," said God, "and I love you. So I won't force you to do what I want. I will trust your judgement and let you make your own decisions."

"What??? You ate from the Tree of Knowledge even after I said it would kill you? And you didn't die, proving that I lied? How dare you decide for yourself what you should do! Get out of my garden! I curse you and all your offspring forever!"

That's totally what a control freak with delusions of grandeur would do though. And God acts totally predictably like this throughout the Bible - suggesting that He doesn't have free will. Which is what you might expect from a fictional character.
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Old Today, 05:46 AM   #194
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What about a baby that killed its sibling in the womb?
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Old Today, 07:42 AM   #195
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I said it all from the Quran. You don't know the Quran or scientific developments.
So which verses in the unholy Quran say anything about what happens to babies after they die?
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old Today, 08:15 AM   #196
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
How do you know that? Are you saying people act totally predictably?

Really having free will includes arguing that a killer should indeed get off 'Scott free' even though your emotions are crying out for blood. It doesn't mean only doing what psionl0 expects you to do - because that wouldn't be free will at all. It would prove that you are just a mechanism whose actions can be accurately predicted by your nature and environment.

According to the story God gave man free will, then got upset when he asserted it.

"I'm not a control freak," said God, "and I love you. So I won't force you to do what I want. I will trust your judgement and let you make your own decisions."

"What??? You ate from the Tree of Knowledge even after I said it would kill you? And you didn't die, proving that I lied? How dare you decide for yourself what you should do! Get out of my garden! I curse you and all your offspring forever!"

That's totally what a control freak with delusions of grandeur would do though. And God acts totally predictably like this throughout the Bible - suggesting that He doesn't have free will. Which is what you might expect from a fictional character.
Somebody else who has no idea of what free will is.

Punishing somebody for making a choice you don't like is not the same as programming them to make a certain choice.

You might think that the Garden of Eden test was unfair but that has nothing to do with whether Adam and Eve exercised their own free will when they ate the fruit.
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Old Today, 09:06 AM   #197
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So which verses in the holy Quran say anything about what happens to babies after they die?
I've told you pages and pages. Only those who have evidence against them, only those who face their own evil will go to hell.

https://www.answering-christianity.c...=3845.msg18321

Those who die as babies or those who are created directly in paradise do not go to hell. Guilt needs proof, but innocence does not need proof.

God knows what you would do if you were tested in this world for eternity on endless options. If you are one of the total bad guys, he gives you a long enough life in this world to gather evidence against you. So he says, "This is what you are," and then you have no appeal in the afterlife. I have explained this extensively, giving pages and pages of verses. I am not going to explain it again here. Read and learn.

Peace

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; Today at 09:08 AM.
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Old Today, 10:24 AM   #198
Darat
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I've told you pages and pages. Only those who have evidence against them, only those who face their own evil will go to hell.

https://www.answering-christianity.c...=3845.msg18321

Those who die as babies or those who are created directly in paradise do not go to hell. Guilt needs proof, but innocence does not need proof.

God knows what you would do if you were tested in this world for eternity on endless options. If you are one of the total bad guys, he gives you a long enough life in this world to gather evidence against you. So he says, "This is what you are," and then you have no appeal in the afterlife. I have explained this extensively, giving pages and pages of verses. I am not going to explain it again here. Read and learn.

Peace
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
My Turkish article translated with machine:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611966.0

Peace
I was bored so...

"....his world is the realm of testing, of confronting oneself, and it is also the place where some small punishments or rewards begin to be offered. And every adversity or happiness that happens in this world functions both as a test and as a way of giving the person what they deserve. ..."
Three year old girl, raped multiple times and beheaded: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/so...-girl-in-india

What lesson was she learning, what testing was she undergoing, how did she deserve to be raped and killed?
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Old Today, 11:15 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
I got soul. And I'm super bad.
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