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Tags abortion issues , abortion laws , Ireland elections , Ireland issues , Ireland politics

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Old 27th May 2018, 10:01 AM   #161
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Two minor points.
1. Does a ~2:1 majority constitute a 'landslide'? I'd reserve that for 3:1 at least.

2. The result is almost exactly an inversion if the result of the 1983 referendum.

BTW, for those of you interested in what happens next; the Returning Officer issues a Provide Referendum Certificate which will be published in Iris Oifigiúil (probably on Tuesday unless a special issue is published but that's unlikely). Then all persons who wish to challenge result (and there's almost always done crank) has seven days to apply to the High Court for leave to present a petition as to why the result should be annulled. Conspiracy just get short shrift.
If any petitions fail or are dismissed the Referendum Certificate issued and sent to the President to be signed into law. That will probably take a week or two.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:08 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Citation required.
A link to the FantasyLand Gazette would suffice, right?

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Two minor points.
1. Does a ~2:1 majority constitute a 'landslide'? I'd reserve that for 3:1 at least.
Apparently 52% is the threshold for 'landslide' now.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:33 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Two minor points.
1. Does a ~2:1 majority constitute a 'landslide'? I'd reserve that for 3:1 at least.
Absolutely a landslide. A battering from which there's no return.

No comment from His Holiness.
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:17 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Absolutely a landslide. A battering from which there's no return.

No comment from His Holiness.
Well yes, it's a major victory for sanity. But we've had referenda pass by 94 and 99%.
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:23 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Citation required.
I was going by Repeal's rhetoric of Abortion being the ultimate expression of feminine empowerment and it being the golden ticket to gender equality. Except 90s Russia had an abortion rate to the point that it was an immediate first resort yet it didn't do much for women. Hell, I would go so far as to say the demographic collapse in that time was a significant contributing factor to Putin's rise to power.

Let's be honest here, I am no fan of the Hypocritical and Abusive Catholic Church, who condemn gay men for existing then go on to enable child abuse. I am no fan of the "all are god's children" then sending a woman to slavery in the magdalene laundries.
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:28 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Yes' seems to be the trendy vote.
Out of all the crap you spew, this is the most condescending and insulting. As though people who disagree with you are just being "trendy"
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:29 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Going by the rhetoric of Abortion being the ultimate expression of feminine empowerment and it being the golden ticket to gender equality, 90s Russia had a hell of a lot of that yet it didn't do much for women.
Still no citations for your assertion of this rhetoric.
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:56 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Out of all the crap you spew, this is the most condescending and insulting. As though people who disagree with you are just being "trendy"
I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall coming down.

Let's face it, the only people who will benefit are those who want an abortion.
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:51 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall coming down.

Let's face it, the only people who will benefit are those who want an abortion.
One, yes I am joyous about a woman having rights to her body.

Two, society benefits as a whole from supporting the rights of others. We don't live in a vacuum.
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Old 27th May 2018, 03:11 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Absolutely a landslide. A battering from which there's no return.

No comment from His Holiness.

The Pope is girding his loins and preparing to endorse abortion methinks. The ones dressed in red all have knives concealed in their frocks, and are waiting for an opportune moment to strike.
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Old 27th May 2018, 03:37 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So Ireland will soon try and beat 90s Russia for Demographic Collapse speedrun - or at least that's the impression I'm getting from the repeal voters? Only, despite abortion being an immediate First Resort and glorified as such in Russia, it didn't usher in gender equality.
No one is claiming that.

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
No, but...
No one is saying that.

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
No, but...

Declared Interest: Pro-Choice for purely pragmatic reasons.
Then why are you attacking people who voted the same way you would have done?
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Old 27th May 2018, 03:41 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post

Let's be honest here, ...
Yes, please be honest. The best way to start is to drop all this twaddle about how the pro-amendment side is trying to copy Russia.
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Old 27th May 2018, 04:04 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
One, yes I am joyous about a woman having rights to her body.

Two, society benefits as a whole from supporting the rights of others. We don't live in a vacuum.
As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?

Or are only highly vocal women who want, "a woman's right to choose" the only voices we should listen to?

That slogan in itself implies a doctor is being 'sexist' if an abortion is refused, because of the law or because of personal ethics, and that the woman's predicament is because of this dreadful 'sexist' society.

But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?
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Old 27th May 2018, 04:12 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?

Or are only highly vocal women who want, "a woman's right to choose" the only voices we should listen to?

That slogan in itself implies a doctor is being 'sexist' if an abortion is refused, because of the law or because of personal ethics, and that the woman's predicament is because of this dreadful 'sexist' society.

But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?
Let’s say in cases where it is forced on women - rape - and the foetus has yet to develop a central nervous system. Whose rights do you favour? The foetus? It has no brain yet! The father? Do you think the rapist should get a say? The government? The Catholic Church? The doctor? I literally want you to explain whose rights should trump those of the woman who has been raped and explain why.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th May 2018, 04:14 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?

Or are only highly vocal women who want, "a woman's right to choose" the only voices we should listen to?

That slogan in itself implies a doctor is being 'sexist' if an abortion is refused, because of the law or because of personal ethics, and that the woman's predicament is because of this dreadful 'sexist' society.

But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?
One strawman argument at a time, please.

Hint: I never suggested any of the above, so I don't feel the need to argue in favor of a position I never held.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:38 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Abortion is common decency? Murder is just plain being polite, I guess.
You've confused two different things there, you know.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:51 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Ironic, because the only part of Ireland where abortion is now illegal is the part where everybody still is a subject of HM the Queen.
It's a minor point, but nobody is any country is a "subject" of HM the Queen.
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Old 27th May 2018, 06:44 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall coming down.

Let's face it, the only people who will benefit are those who want an abortion.
My cousin got pregnant in the 1990s. She was married and was planning a family. However, the foetus had a medical condition (can't remember the details, it's not important) which meant that if it survived to full term, it would be born and would die within hours. There was 0% chance of the baby being viable.

Legally there was nothing she could do to terminate the pregnancy. She could have regular scans to see if the foetus was still alive and could have had it removed if it was dead, but the foetus survived full term. For some reason (don't know her personal situation, doesn't really matter) she chose not to travel abroad to have an abortion but instead carried the foetus to term, and it died almost immediately, as expected.

"Joy" is not the emotion women in her situation would feel if they could legally and safely terminate their pregnancies.

What a situation. To be forced to carry a non-viable foetus to term because some **********-up law considers it to be a full human being with full rights. Yet people on these forums seem to think there's something wrong with remove the extreme legal barriers that would allow a woman to legally and safely terminate the pregnancy in those kind of situations.

If you want another example, look up the "X case" that happened in Ireland during the 1990s, where a 14 year old girl who got pregnant as the result of rape, and had reported felling suicidal because of her situation, but when the police learned that she intended to travel to England to have an abortion, they prevented her from doing so. The situation was ludicrous and tragic and the result of the 8th amendment we have just voted to remove from the constitution.

These are the kind of tragic situations that women are forced to put up with precisely because we have preposterously conservative and extremist laws regarding abortion, because of what is enshrined in our constitution. Removing the 8th amendment will allow for terminating pregnancy to be sensibly legislated for.

I'm shaking my head at yours and others incoherent and rather silly objections to what has been done here in Ireland.

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Old 27th May 2018, 06:53 PM   #179
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Excellent post Jesse.
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Old 27th May 2018, 07:48 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
It's a minor point, but nobody is any country is a "subject" of HM the Queen.
We're citizens now, but there is still a small category of people who are British subjects.
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Old 27th May 2018, 09:08 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
It's a minor point, but nobody is any country is a "subject" of HM the Queen.
Actually, my mother’s British passport says she is a British subject. Mine says I am a citizen.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:11 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Especially given that a majority of the actual voters in Norn Iron support liberalising the abortion laws there.
It's the DUP's control of UKGov that's the obstruction.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aborti...dom#Devolution, it is now fully under NI parliament, no longer UK Parliament/government.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:11 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall
It's a step in the path to treating women as people, not just ambulatory incubators. People with control of their bodies.
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Old 28th May 2018, 01:56 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall coming down.
Hopefully it represents a wall going up separating church from state.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 28th May 2018, 02:14 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It's a step in the path to treating women as people, not just ambulatory incubators. People with control of their bodies.
Yes. That's dangerous thinking right there....
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Old 28th May 2018, 03:03 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Let’s say in cases where it is forced on women - rape - and the foetus has yet to develop a central nervous system. Whose rights do you favour? The foetus? It has no brain yet! The father? Do you think the rapist should get a say? The government? The Catholic Church? The doctor? I literally want you to explain whose rights should trump those of the woman who has been raped and explain why.
OK, so let's look at rape.

(a) who calls this? Does a woman have to prove it was rape, because it can take over a year for a case to come to court, and then only something like 2% of rape complaints end in a conviction.

(b) does this include rape by a husband? Likewise, how does a woman prove rape, given the length of time it takes to charge and convict, if the man pleads not guilty.

(c) why wait until a pregnancy test shows pregnancy? If the 'morning after pill' is not available, then there is nothing to stop a woman asking for a 'scrape' (the lining of the womb scraped)employed to solve a whole range gynaecological problems?

(d) what percentage of pregnancies are due to rape?

(e) do you believe that people conceived of rape (whether husband and wife, date rape or stranger rape) are lesser citizens than 'wanted' babies?

Bear in mind, the question posed was, whose rights was the other poster referring to, when he or she said that everybodys' rights are important and have to be balanced, therefore he or she was joyous at the 'yes' vote.
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Old 28th May 2018, 03:14 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
My cousin got pregnant in the 1990s. She was married and was planning a family. However, the foetus had a medical condition (can't remember the details, it's not important) which meant that if it survived to full term, it would be born and would die within hours. There was 0% chance of the baby being viable.

Legally there was nothing she could do to terminate the pregnancy. She could have regular scans to see if the foetus was still alive and could have had it removed if it was dead, but the foetus survived full term. For some reason (don't know her personal situation, doesn't really matter) she chose not to travel abroad to have an abortion but instead carried the foetus to term, and it died almost immediately, as expected.

"Joy" is not the emotion women in her situation would feel if they could legally and safely terminate their pregnancies.

What a situation. To be forced to carry a non-viable foetus to term because some **********-up law considers it to be a full human being with full rights. Yet people on these forums seem to think there's something wrong with remove the extreme legal barriers that would allow a woman to legally and safely terminate the pregnancy in those kind of situations.

If you want another example, look up the "X case" that happened in Ireland during the 1990s, where a 14 year old girl who got pregnant as the result of rape, and had reported felling suicidal because of her situation, but when the police learned that she intended to travel to England to have an abortion, they prevented her from doing so. The situation was ludicrous and tragic and the result of the 8th amendment we have just voted to remove from the constitution.

These are the kind of tragic situations that women are forced to put up with precisely because we have preposterously conservative and extremist laws regarding abortion, because of what is enshrined in our constitution. Removing the 8th amendment will allow for terminating pregnancy to be sensibly legislated for.

I'm shaking my head at yours and others incoherent and rather silly objections to what has been done here in Ireland.
The vast majority of congenitally deformed foetuses are spontaneously miscarried.

I presume that in your cousin's case, the deformity only became apparent once the pregnancy was quite advanced. In those cases, even if an abortion is carried out, there is still the heartbreak of having to to through an induced delivery, anyway.

There seems to be this idea that somehow the tragedy of a baby suffering from a congenital condition is the fault of 'sexism' which can be solved by abortion on demand.

Truth is, your cousin's situation was always going to be a very sad one.

I am not arguing against a change in the amendment per se, I question whether people have given much thought to the slogans bandied about.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:05 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I was going by Repeal's rhetoric of Abortion being the ultimate expression of feminine empowerment and it being the golden ticket to gender equality.
Citation required.

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Except 90s Russia had an abortion rate to the point that it was an immediate first resort yet it didn't do much for women.
And this has what exactly to do with the 36A referendum?

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Hell, I would go so far as to say the demographic collapse in that time was a significant contributing factor to Putin's rise to power.
So you can provide supporting evidence for this claim too.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:07 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whilst it might save the NHS vast sums of money from the hordes of abortion seekers coming over to England for their operations and plus, the planet is overpopulated,
Irrelevant nonsense.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am not sure people have even thought the issue through.
'Yes' seems to be the trendy vote.
Unlike apparently you many people are able to come to rational, reasoned, conclusions by examining the evidence and think for themselves.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:10 AM   #190
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[quote=Vixen;12307254]As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?
To what extent can the continuation of a pregnancy endanger a woman's life before a medical termination is allowed, in your opinion?
An extra 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?
Sometimes yes. Or are you one of those idiots who believe that rape never causes pregnancy too?
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:12 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Actually, my mother’s British passport says she is a British subject. Mine says I am a citizen.
Don't worry, I'm sure Brexit will fix that.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:15 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aborti...dom#Devolution, it is now fully under NI parliament, no longer UK Parliament/government.
Except there is no NI government. Interestingly there's some suggestions in the UK to hold a referendum in NI too. However May and co are unlikely to demonstrate the necessary moral courage.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:18 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
Yes. That's dangerous thinking right there....
Quite revolutionary back in '83, somewhat less so now.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:19 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?

Or are only highly vocal women who want, "a woman's right to choose" the only voices we should listen to?

That slogan in itself implies a doctor is being 'sexist' if an abortion is refused, because of the law or because of personal ethics, and that the woman's predicament is because of this dreadful 'sexist' society.

But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?
Perhaps you would prefer to see women resorting to unsafe, positively dangerous procedures to abort an unwanted foetus?
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:21 AM   #195
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[quote=catsmate;12307706]
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?
To what extent can the continuation of a pregnancy endanger a woman's life before a medical termination is allowed, in your opinion?
An extra 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?


Sometimes yes. Or are you one of those idiots who believe that rape never causes pregnancy too?
He is an idiot.

However, according to figures there were only 655 rape cases in Ireland in 2017:

Quote:
According to 2017 crime data, released by the Central Statistics Office today, there were 655 instances of rape recorded by the gardaí last year.
http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-...29262-Mar2018/

US statistics (as per your link) shows 5% result in pregnancy.

That would be 32 of those raped women would be pregnant as a result.

So, using 'rape' as the main reason the law should be changed is merely an appeal to people's base emotions. The population of Ireland is 4.78m.

So all the brouhaha about rape is largely a distraction designed to browbeat people.
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Last edited by Vixen; 28th May 2018 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:22 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK, so let's look at rape.
Given your history I'm sure this will be a pile of straw but why not.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
(a) who calls this? Does a woman have to prove it was rape, because it can take over a year for a case to come to court, and then only something like 2% of rape complaints end in a conviction.
The woman makes a declaration and that's accepted.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
(b) does this include rape by a husband?
Of course.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Likewise, how does a woman prove rape, given the length of time it takes to charge and convict, if the man pleads not guilty.
Her statement should suffice.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
(c) why wait until a pregnancy test shows pregnancy? If the 'morning after pill' is not available, then there is nothing to stop a woman asking for a 'scrape' (the lining of the womb scraped)employed to solve a whole range gynaecological problems?
OK

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
(d) what percentage of pregnancies are due to rape?
Well around 6% of rapes end in pregnancy, so given around 1,200 rapes pa in Ireland (actually far more) that's around seventy.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
(e) do you believe that people conceived of rape (whether husband and wife, date rape or stranger rape) are lesser citizens than 'wanted' babies?
An irrelevant strawman. What's important is the physical and psychological damage to the woman whom you're so enthusiastic about forcing to carry her rapist's child.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Bear in mind, the question posed was, whose rights was the other poster referring to, when he or she said that everybodys' rights are important and have to be balanced, therefore he or she was joyous at the 'yes' vote.
Is there a point buried in that waffle?
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:23 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vast majority of congenitally deformed foetuses are spontaneously miscarried.
So? Many aren't.
You may be fine with risking the physical and psychological safety of woman to carry unviable fetuses to term but others are more caring and compassionate.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:24 AM   #198
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[quote=Vixen;12307712]
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

He is an idiot.

However, according to figures there were only 655 rape cases in Ireland in 2017:

http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-...29262-Mar2018/

US statistics (as per your link) shows 5% result in pregnancy.

That would be 32 of those raped women would be pregnant as a result.

So, using 'rape' as the main reason the law should be changed is merely an appeal to people's base emotions. The population of Ireland is 4.78m.

So all the brouhaha about rape is largely a distraction designed to browbeat people.
The RCC figures are notably higher. And forcing thirty women to risk their health each year is unacceptable.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:25 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Perhaps you would prefer to see women resorting to unsafe, positively dangerous procedures to abort an unwanted foetus?
Certainly not.

I am questioning people's mindless support of abortion on demand. If they haven't given it much thought, then they are just being trendy.
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Old 28th May 2018, 04:29 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Given your history I'm sure this will be a pile of straw but why not.


The woman makes a declaration and that's accepted.


Of course.


Her statement should suffice.


OK


Well around 6% of rapes end in pregnancy, so given around 1,200 rapes pa in Ireland (actually far more) that's around seventy.


An irrelevant strawman. What's important is the physical and psychological damage to the woman whom you're so enthusiastic about forcing to carry her rapist's child.


Is there a point buried in that waffle?

I get that people strongly believe in abortion on demand. However, I am sceptical of some of the reasoning. People speak of being 'joyous', for example.

Obviously, it should be available for health reasons (including psychological health) as it is a medical procedure.
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