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Old 25th May 2018, 04:12 AM   #1
Meadmaker
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Good guy with a gun actually stops mass shooting.

It doesn't happen often, but it seems to have happened this time:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/civilian-s...ry?id=55424657


(For those not wanting to click, man walks into restaurant and starts shooting. Civilian with handgun kills shooter.)

Developing story.
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Old 25th May 2018, 05:09 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It doesn't happen often, but it seems to have happened this time:

(For those not wanting to click, man walks into restaurant and starts shooting. Civilian with handgun kills shooter.)

Developing story.
Sounds like he was shot after the fact and was not stopped from mass shooting as the title states. I guess assuming he was leaving the bar to further shoot up the rest of the world, he might have been stopped from a new spate of shootings.
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Old 25th May 2018, 05:10 AM   #3
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Not a whole lot of information yet but from what there is it sounds like he didn't so much stop the shooting as stopped him from getting away. He killed the guy after he was done and on his way out in the parking lot. It's possible he stopped him from continuing elsewhere.

(looks like someone already said pretty much the same thing while I was typing)
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Old 25th May 2018, 05:57 AM   #4
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Cayvmann2 View Post
Sounds like he was shot after the fact and was not stopped from mass shooting as the title states. I guess assuming he was leaving the bar to further shoot up the rest of the world, he might have been stopped from a new spate of shootings.
That's the "developing story" part.

I read a few articles so far about this, and they each paint a somewhat different picture. I first saw some "on the scene" news coverage, and they described a "good Samaritan" who saved lives. Later articles describe things differently.

It does appear that he had fired shots, then left the restaurant, then was confronted and, after a brief verbal encounter, killed. No motive or identity yet.
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Old 25th May 2018, 06:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's the "developing story" part.

I read a few articles so far about this, and they each paint a somewhat different picture. I first saw some "on the scene" news coverage, and they described a "good Samaritan" who saved lives. Later articles describe things differently.

It does appear that he had fired shots, then left the restaurant, then was confronted and, after a brief verbal encounter, killed. No motive or identity yet.
If that's what happened, then maybe the guy will be charged.
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Old 25th May 2018, 06:39 AM   #6
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Anybody hear the words? Did he leave a manifesto? Were there more guns/ammo in his car?
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Old 25th May 2018, 07:11 AM   #7
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If I encounter a guy who just shot a bunch of people and I can stop him, I'm not going to ask "Are you through yet?". I'm stopping him.

And it's also apparent that the shooter wasn't very good at it, as none of his victims died. Maybe he was just practicing for another shooting.
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Old 25th May 2018, 07:24 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Anybody hear the words? Did he leave a manifesto? Were there more guns/ammo in his car?
The words in the confrontation? They were variations on "Drop the gun, now!" He didn't. That didn't turn out well for him.

One report I read said that the gunman was never inside the restaurant. He was near some trees, shooting people at the entrance to the restaurant.

Developing story.
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Old 25th May 2018, 11:53 AM   #9
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Apparently two guys with guns didn't stop any mass shooting, but they did shoot and kill the first shooter after the mass shooting.
To me it seems that the victims might have been better off if the first shooter hadn't had a gun.
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Old 25th May 2018, 01:55 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Apparently two guys with guns didn't stop any mass shooting, but they did shoot and kill the first shooter after the mass shooting.
To me it seems that the victims might have been better off if the first shooter hadn't had a gun.
Heretic!!
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Old 25th May 2018, 06:42 PM   #11
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I wonder what Oklahoma's laws are on Citizens Arrest?

Some places it is totally legal to place a culprit under citizens arrest if you saw a felon committed. Then shoot him for trying to escape? Anyway, that would make it legal to arm yourself and confront him, attempting to do a citizen's duty. And if he wants to commit suicide by citizen, oblige him.
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Old 25th May 2018, 06:46 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I wonder what Oklahoma's laws are on Citizens Arrest?

Some places it is totally legal to place a culprit under citizens arrest if you saw a felon committed. Then shoot him for trying to escape? Anyway, that would make it legal to arm yourself and confront him, attempting to do a citizen's duty. And if he wants to commit suicide by citizen, oblige him.
Shoot his knees out. Let him eat his own gun.........
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Old 25th May 2018, 07:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Apparently two guys with guns didn't stop any mass shooting, but they did shoot and kill the first shooter after the mass shooting.
So if someone were arriving late to the scene, they'd see two shooters shooting someone, and draw out their gun to shoot them, to prevent more shootings! Unfortunately Lydia, who is always late to everything, arrives at just that moment, and shoots that guy. The old man looking out his window was too slow to see all the prior shootings, so he only sees Lydia shooting, and that's why he shoots her. The police, finally arriving, see all the dead bodies and what seems to be sniper in the window, and shoot him. And that one's okay because it's the police doing it, and also the last guy was black so they get away with it.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:08 PM   #14
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From the OP link:
Quote:
The gun rights group also used their tweet to send a message to Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin, who vetoed a bill that would have eliminated the requirement for people to have completed a firearms training course in order to carry guns in public. The NRA supported the proposed bill, but the Republican governor, who has supported concealed carry and open carry laws in the past, vetoed it.
Well there you go, good guy with a gun and 20 years experience in the National Guard including a tour in Afghanistan stops a shooter. Gun groups use the event to try to get a law removed that simply requires people complete a firearms training course in order to have guns in public.

Here's the thing, I'm glad someone was there to stop this guy. I'm glad no one got shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. We'll never rid this country of guns and that's fine, why shoot for the Moon when all you have is a model rocket?

What I'm not fine with is so much resistance to gun regulations that the NRA and/or their members think requiring a firearms training course for gun owners is too much regulation.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:08 PM   #15
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It's not the first time but doesn't fit a popular narrative.

Does it happen in every instance, obviously not. Does it happen? absolutely.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's not the first time but doesn't fit a popular narrative.

Does it happen in every instance, obviously not. Does it happen? absolutely.
I don't think anyone's ever claimed that it never happens. But it certainly doesn't happen nearly often enough to justify using it as an excuse to avoid strengthening gun control laws.
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Old 25th May 2018, 09:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
So if someone were arriving late to the scene, they'd see two shooters shooting someone, and draw out their gun to shoot them, to prevent more shootings! Unfortunately Lydia, who is always late to everything, arrives at just that moment, and shoots that guy. The old man looking out his window was too slow to see all the prior shootings, so he only sees Lydia shooting, and that's why he shoots her. The police, finally arriving, see all the dead bodies and what seems to be sniper in the window, and shoot him. And that one's okay because it's the police doing it, and also the last guy was black so they get away with it.
Funny how it never happens that way. With so many people walking around armed it bothers you this odd situation I always hear never actually happens.
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Old 26th May 2018, 05:37 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Funny how it never happens that way. With so many people walking around armed it bothers you this odd situation I always hear never actually happens.
Oh, it doesn't "bother" me at all. I think the whole point of having a civilization is so everyone can live in fear and walk around armed at all times, just waiting to shoot somebody. Isn't that what progress is all about?
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Old 26th May 2018, 06:12 AM   #19
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I AGREE
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:10 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, it doesn't "bother" me at all. I think the whole point of having a civilization is so everyone can live in fear and walk around armed at all times, just waiting to shoot somebody. Isn't that what progress is all about?

And American progress, because guns equal Freedom, and Freedom equals guns. We'll all be so much freer when everyone can have and carry (or at least purchase) a gun.


Think of how safer (I mean free.) our schools would be if the students were armed. That bullied emo wouldn't be able to even draw his gun.
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:39 AM   #21
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In the linked to news we learn that the shooter went into the restaurant, shot at three people injuring them. Meanwhile two diners went to their cars, got their guns and shot the shooter after he had left the restaurant. They are being hailed as heroes for stopping anything else bad from happening.

So, two guys with guns shot and killed another guy with a gun after he had stopped shooting at people.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:10 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the linked to news we learn that the shooter went into the restaurant, shot at three people injuring them. Meanwhile two diners went to their cars, got their guns and shot the shooter after he had left the restaurant. They are being hailed as heroes for stopping anything else bad from happening.

So, two guys with guns shot and killed another guy with a gun after he had stopped shooting at people
.
None of us know what the criminal shooter intended at that moment - maybe going for a reload, maybe going for a bigger firearm or other additional firearms or an explosive device. The fact that they had already shot what would appear to be strangers in public is reason enough to suspect that the situation would degrade further.

In the US, an individual that has committed certain criminal acts with a weapon resulting in death or serious injury to a victim or victims is considered to be an immediate danger to the public at large.

Force, up to and including lethal force, can be used to restrain or stop that individual, by civilian or LE witnesses to the act.

This isn't some yahoo shooting a driver in a hit and run fender bender.

If the facts are as reported, this appears to be a good shoot.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:28 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the linked to news we learn that the shooter went into the restaurant, shot at three people injuring them. Meanwhile two diners went to their cars, got their guns and shot the shooter after he had left the restaurant. They are being hailed as heroes for stopping anything else bad from happening.

So, two guys with guns shot and killed another guy with a gun after he had stopped shooting at people.
Works for me. But how could anyone know he really stopped? Maybe he went to grab another gun, or shoot different people outside.

And what is the time limit on this?

"Hey wait he stopped shooting!"
POW!
"Oh crap no he didn't, maybe that was his last shot, let me try and cuff him."

Maybe they confronted him and he pointed a gun at them. Me personally, I don't care if they shot him in the back. The bad guy is the bad guy here.

"Oh damn he went outside. It will take me 30 seconds to grab my gun and the time limit is only 15 - better just let him go."
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:06 PM   #24
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OK, so the argument is that anyone who shoots in public is fair game for summary execution. How long after the shooting does that apply? Say the shooter did not shoot anyone else for the next ten minutes? Are they still considered such a risk they can just be shot?
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
OK, so the argument is that anyone who shoots in public is fair game for summary execution. How long after the shooting does that apply? Say the shooter did not shoot anyone else for the next ten minutes? Are they still considered such a risk they can just be shot?
Rule of So, but it's not any sort of "Summary Execution" under U.S. law, it's the stopping, by the use of force or otherwise, by a witness to the crime, of an individual or individuals that have injured or killed a victim, and before some wit throws this out, no, that doesn't entitle a "good guy with a gun" to fire on a uniformed police officer observed using force to stop a criminal suspect. If a witness yells "Boo!" at a shooter and they go TU at that moment, that's great, but most people in a shooting mood need some convincing to surrender or cease and desist. The law generally recognizes that fact

If an individual that was observed by a witness or witnesses, a member of the general public or LE, is encountered and refuses to submit to arrest or disarm force may be used to effect an arrest or to stop the individual in question. It's a valid use of force in the instance of the commission of he crime or in the immediate aftermath of the crime - but the longer the time between the commission of the act and the encounter between witnesses and the subject, the greater the need for a clear threat to be at hand for the use of lethal force.

There is no codified timeline for the use of lethal force in cases like this because of the simple reason that there hasn't been a raft of cases that fit the parameters.
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:44 PM   #26
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The title of the thread is;

"Good guy with a gun actually stops mass shooting"

that is wrong. The guys with the guns did not stop the mass shooting. It had already happened. It was also not a mass shooting by the usual definition.

It is then assumed the shooter is going to continue, but is there any evidence for that

1- in this case?
2- generally?

This is about creating and maintaining a myth that armed civilians make the USA safer. The thread does that just by its title and the news story by reporting the shooters as heroes.

Meanwhile, actual study finds;

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...olence/531297/

"The question of whether armed citizens deter violent crime or exacerbate it has been controversial in academia since at least the mid-1990s—not to mention the debate it continues to fuel in American politics. Conflicting studies have informed polarized lawmakers in the parallel battles over gun regulation....
In the roughly two decades since, additional academic studies have strongly suggested that the opposite is true: that these laws lead to higher rates of violent crime."

The thread title should be "Two civilians kill man after he shoots and injures three in restaurant"
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
OK, so the argument is that anyone who shoots in public is fair game for summary execution. How long after the shooting does that apply? Say the shooter did not shoot anyone else for the next ten minutes? Are they still considered such a risk they can just be shot?
Unfair strawman. No one said he deserved to die. I am anti-gun, in general, but I have no problem with these actions. Standing by and doing nothing is also a choice. Maybe sometimes the right choice, but I don't fault these men for doing something in a situation I have never faced.
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:52 PM   #28
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Who cares, he shot up the place killing no one, he deserves to die. He may have learning difficulties, he may be acting under duress, with his family held hostage, it could be a film or prank. We really don't care about a fair trial when a passing member of the public can easily shoot the 'perp' in the back
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:59 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Works for me. But how could anyone know he really stopped?

How could anyone know that the two good guys with guns weren't going to on a rampage and shoot innocent people the next day?!

I know, it's not bloody likely that they would, but how can we know for sure, right?! How can we know what anybody with a gun is up to?

I think I'd better buy me a gun ...
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
How could anyone know that the two good guys with guns weren't going to on a rampage and shoot innocent people the next day?!

I know, it's not bloody likely that they would, but how can we know for sure, right?! How can we know what anybody with a gun is up to?

I think I'd better buy me a gun ...
Seems everyone involved didn't have too much trouble sorting things out. If you couldn't, that's on you.
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:52 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
How could anyone know that the two good guys with guns weren't going to on a rampage and shoot innocent people the next day?!

I know, it's not bloody likely that they would, but how can we know for sure, right?! How can we know what anybody with a gun is up to?

I think I'd better buy me a gun ...
Rather silly argument. Someone randomly attacks another person, you defend him using your fists. How could anyone know that you weren't a violent rampage monster?

People make judgment calls every day in stress situations. You an argue that they made a mistake- but you can''t reduce it to the ridiculous sum of "nobody knows." Context matters.

If the argument is, NONE of them should have had a gun, fine, that's rational. Your argument wasn't.
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:00 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The title of the thread is;

"Good guy with a gun actually stops mass shooting"

that is wrong. The guys with the guns did not stop the mass shooting. It had already happened. It was also not a mass shooting by the usual definition.
At the time I wrote the thread title, news reports said four injured, which is the most common definition used of "mass shooting". It turns out one of those wasn't injured by gunfire.


I will admit that I am with the people who figure that there's no real problem with the civilians killing the shooter. Bummer. Sort of. But he's obviously dangerous. He still has a gun. They apparently even made some attempt to spare his life by demanding he drop the gun. Ok. Put an end to his miserable existence before he hurts someone else. I'm ok with that.

Does this incident demonstrate that more guns make us safer? I don't think so, but it does show that the situation is more complicated than "guns are bad".

ETA: On this board, I don't think there are many people who think, "Guns are bad", but that's because this board is populated, generally, by people more thoughtful than the average American. Among the general population, I think there are plenty of people who have such monolithic opinions.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 27th May 2018 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 28th May 2018, 12:04 AM   #33
dann
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Seems everyone involved didn't have too much trouble sorting things out. If you couldn't, that's on you.
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Rather silly argument. Someone randomly attacks another person, you defend him using your fists. How could anyone know that you weren't a violent rampage monster?

People make judgment calls every day in stress situations. You an argue that they made a mistake- but you can''t reduce it to the ridiculous sum of "nobody knows." Context matters.

If the argument is, NONE of them should have had a gun, fine, that's rational. Your argument wasn't.

Yes of course, it's a silly "nobody knows" argument. It was poking fun at a silly "nobody knows" argument:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Works for me. But how could anyone know he really stopped?

But apparently you didn't even notice that the two allegedly good shooters didn't actually defend anybody - except, maybe, themselves - which is implied by your attempted analogy: "you defend him".
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Old 28th May 2018, 12:15 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think so, but it does show that the situation is more complicated than "guns are bad".

I don't think anybody here has argued that guns are bad. Guns are guns, and people usually argue that too many people in the USA have guns.

Quote:
ETA: On this board, I don't think there are many people who think, "Guns are bad", but that's because this board is populated, generally, by people more thoughtful than the average American. Among the general population, I think there are plenty of people who have such monolithic opinions.

Guns don't kill people. Gun owners do, however, and they usually do so with guns. That's the purpose of guns. The same way that the purpose of waffle irons is to make waffles.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th May 2018, 01:27 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Unfair strawman. No one said he deserved to die. I am anti-gun, in general, but I have no problem with these actions. Standing by and doing nothing is also a choice. Maybe sometimes the right choice, but I don't fault these men for doing something in a situation I have never faced.
So calling it a summary execution is not a strawman. You have just agreed it was acceptable to shoot him dead after he had committed a crime.
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Old 28th May 2018, 01:37 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
....

I will admit that I am with the people who figure that there's no real problem with the civilians killing the shooter. Bummer. Sort of. But he's obviously dangerous. He still has a gun. They apparently even made some attempt to spare his life by demanding he drop the gun. Ok. Put an end to his miserable existence before he hurts someone else. I'm ok with that.

.....
I am OK, that you are OK with that.

That there is so much support in the US for such actions is one of the reasons why I have been arguing that the USA cannot stop its high rate of gun deaths.

The Wild West posse is alive and well and fully supported.
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Old 28th May 2018, 02:34 AM   #37
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With so many potential bad men with guns, you are never going to have enough police to keep the public safe. Arming the public is the only way to do that. If they are armed you can then make do with fewer police and put the $$$ savings into rewarding those brave soles who take out the bad men. Perhaps put up posters with the bad men's faces in it and offer rewards based on how bad the bad guy is. $10,000 for a bank robber, $3,000 for a robber, $1,000 for a shop lifter and $500 for a jay walker. Think of the savings you would make with fewer prisons, not to mention the boost to the undertaking industry.
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Old 28th May 2018, 03:19 AM   #38
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So calling it a summary execution is not a strawman. You have just agreed it was acceptable to shoot him dead after he had committed a crime.
It depends on how you define 'summary execution', had he dropped the gun I'd certainly agree with you but given he was armed and had already shown his willingness to attack other people I'd consider this to be self defense/defense of others.
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Old 28th May 2018, 03:38 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
OK, so the argument is that anyone who shoots in public is fair game for summary execution. How long after the shooting does that apply? Say the shooter did not shoot anyone else for the next ten minutes? Are they still considered such a risk they can just be shot?
Why are you jumping to "summary execution"? You seem to know lots more about this incident than anyone else or you're using a different definition of summary execution than I'm familiar with.

If the two men who shot the prep had disarmed him then shot him while he was standing in front of them helpless, this would be a good example of summary execution. How do you know the shooter was no longer a threat when he was killed?

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Old 28th May 2018, 06:56 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's not the first time but doesn't fit a popular narrative.

Oh, I don't know... "Good guy with a gun" seems like a pretty popular narrative.
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