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Old 15th April 2019, 07:01 AM   #1561
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But there are no "Leave" voters, in the population or in politics.
There are only different bins of various exit deals.

It would be a very bad referendum if Leave got only one option.
Ranked choice voting, stay in, the deal on the table or no deal. Seems pretty simple.
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Old 15th April 2019, 07:15 AM   #1562
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Quote:
Brexit no-deal planning meant a council destroyed 17,000 of Britain's rarest orchids in one day - and it will take up to eight years for them to grow back.

Volunteers from Kent Wildlife Trust had been lovingly tending the purple carpet of rare bee and common orchids for over 15 years. A spokesperson said they were "devastated" by the news.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...itains-rarest/

What I find more interesting than the story is the fact that the DT chose to report it. Maybe they thought that associating brexit damage with destroyed flowers would help their cause?
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Old 15th April 2019, 07:27 AM   #1563
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ranked choice voting, stay in, the deal on the table or no deal. Seems pretty simple.
Unfortunately, so does the electorate. Anything other than a mark-the-cross-by-the-exact-thing-you-want referendum with only two options will have everyone up in arms about how it's too complicated and prone to abuse because of the way different numbers of ranking points are attached to different choices, or because second choices are ranked the same as first when a vote gets transferred, or because second choices somehow aren't ranked the same according to some piece of bizarre sophistry. And, of course, a simpe yes/no will have everybody equally up in arms over which two choices are on offer, either because theirs isn't included, or because the other one has a chance of beating theirs.

I'm not suggesting that any other idea is better, of course. For quite a long time now there has been no viable course of action available, including the course of not taking any action.

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Old 15th April 2019, 07:54 AM   #1564
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
... I think Brexit would make a fascinating study subject in collective stupidity.

McHrozni
Another good one. I often wonder if any of us is as free of simple biases as he/she thinks. Iirc it's the amygdala that calls the shots, and the rest of the brain makes up excuses that sound reasonable, retrofitting our reactions and swiftly vesting them with nobler motives. Maybe this guy doesn't like the sound of German, or got dumped by his French girlfriend, or watched Master and Commander 150 thousand times....

Taking that back and happily contradicting myself, when there has been time to deliberate, no excuses are valid. The dark side must be calling out to him, Obi-Won.

***
Brexit: As for this reprieve from crashing out, it seems nothing at all will change, especially in light of those articles and polls people linked me to back up a few posts. I sure hope this delay does not mean months of hearing "cannot be dominated by Germans" again, as I fear the Germans have their own weariness of "wayward" partners and may lose their own North Star. Golly, I really dislike the 21st century so far.
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Old 15th April 2019, 08:56 AM   #1565
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess there are people out there who that although it isn't a good outcome or acceptable compromise, no-deal is still better than remaining.

Then again, perhaps people have been providing mutually incompatible answers to questions.
That would fit with Brexit as a whole so probably.
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Old 15th April 2019, 09:11 AM   #1566
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's just as bad, if not worse, in the US.
The US Congress cannot even get a budget done on time. Legally, they have to do it by Sep 30th or the Government shuts down. Inevitably..even when the White House and the Congress are of the same party and are pretty much on the same page they miss it and have to pass stopgap spending measure (callec Contiuing Resolutions or CRs) to keep the Government open.
When Congress and the White House are at odds..we just saw what happened.
No that was when congress and the white house were controlled by the same party.
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Old 15th April 2019, 10:21 PM   #1567
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What is needed is a referendum asking voters if they want another Brexit referendum.


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Old 15th April 2019, 10:55 PM   #1568
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I often wonder if any of us is as free of simple biases as he/she thinks.
I'm certain we're not. Each and every one of us is outright stupid when it comes to some question, issue or problem somewhere. Some have more obviously, while others have fewer, but everyone has a blindspot or three. The best we can do is to be stupid about question that don't matter much.

Which questions are those? That's a whole new rabbit hole, but I can say questions that impact whole societies and continents - like Brexit does - are questions that surely matter a whole lot.

McHrozni
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Old 16th April 2019, 01:56 AM   #1569
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Another good one. I often wonder if any of us is as free of simple biases as he/she thinks. Iirc it's the amygdala that calls the shots, and the rest of the brain makes up excuses that sound reasonable, retrofitting our reactions and swiftly vesting them with nobler motives.

I'm not sure about the amygdala or about trying to assign any physical parts of the brain or specific processes in the brain, but I think that psychologists have shown what a huge factor Confirmation Bias is. And it's extremely difficult for any of us to avoid that.

In almost everything we do, we are constantly looking for explanations based on what we had already believed about all sorts of things.

In part that's probably a natural and inescapable process of how any of us attempts to understand anything. But as we get older, passing from childhood into adult years, it seems as if it's increasingly a false, and partly intentional way of convincing ourselves that each piece of new information confirms that we are indeed correct in what what we had already previously believed to be the truth of the matter.

That's something that's almost impossible for adults to guard against. And imho its an absolutely huge factor in almost everything any of us does, says, or thinks.

But again, that's why science has become so successful, ie because it's methods and processes try always to remove or minimise that effect of confirmation bias, whereas the two earlier believed methods of "knowing", ie religion and philosophy, had for thousands of years made little or no such attempt to guard against confirmation bias. Though even in science, and even at the highest levels, it's still a factor that is very hard to avoid.
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Old 16th April 2019, 04:18 AM   #1570
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More reasons why certain business leaders and entrepreneurs are so strongly pro-Brexit:

Quote:
The European Parliament has approved new EU rules to protect workers in the so-called "gig economy".

The law sets minimum rights and demands increased transparency for those in "on-demand" jobs, such as at Uber or Deliveroo.

It proposes more predictable hours and compensation for cancelled work, and an end to "abusive practices" around casual contracts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947220

Quote:
Whistleblowers across the European Union are set to win greater protections under a new law aimed at encouraging reports of wrongdoing.

The legislation being considered on Tuesday calls for whistleblowers to be shielded from retaliation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47936682
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Old 16th April 2019, 09:11 AM   #1571
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I'm not sure about the amygdala or about trying to assign any physical parts of the brain or specific processes in the brain, but I think that psychologists have shown what a huge factor Confirmation Bias is. And it's extremely difficult for any of us to avoid that.

In almost everything we do, we are constantly looking for explanations based on what we had already believed about all sorts of things.
I can't recall its name offhand (sodding cold) but there is a theory called something like "defensive argument" that proposes that we build an immune system for incoming ideas such that they are tested to a higher standard against older ideas. How this explains people who jump on every loony theory is left as an exercise for the reader.
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Old 16th April 2019, 09:14 AM   #1572
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I can't recall its name offhand (sodding cold) but there is a theory called something like "defensive argument" that proposes that we build an immune system for incoming ideas such that they are tested to a higher standard against older ideas.
I think part of the problem with Brexit is that "Being in the EU" is, for many people, still classed under "incoming ideas," while "Leaving the EU" is seen as "not being in the EU" and is therefore classed under "old ideas"

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Old 16th April 2019, 12:28 PM   #1573
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Channel 4 News investigation reveals how Arron Banks' pro-Brexit group Leave.EU faked a migrant-crossing video and appeared to have staged photos of migrants attacking women in London.

https://www.channel4.com/news/reveal...igrant-footage
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Old 17th April 2019, 05:41 AM   #1574
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Channel 4 News investigation reveals how Arron Banks' pro-Brexit group Leave.EU faked a migrant-crossing video and appeared to have staged photos of migrants attacking women in London.

https://www.channel4.com/news/reveal...igrant-footage
Yeah but remain said....
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:38 AM   #1575
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
More reasons why certain business leaders and entrepreneurs are so strongly pro-Brexit:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947220



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47936682
Why it pays to read past the headlines:

1st link:
Quote:
The UK will only be obliged to implement the law if it is still a member state of the EU three years after the new regulation enters into force. But it has already introduced similar legislation at a national level.
2nd link:
Quote:
The European Commission says just 10 members - France, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Malta, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Sweden and the UK - had a "comprehensive law" protecting whistleblowers.
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Old 17th April 2019, 01:17 PM   #1576
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I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?
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Old 17th April 2019, 01:20 PM   #1577
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?
They're on holiday, recharging their batteries before getting mightily tangled-up again in a few weeks.

I'm also reading that for May to put her 'deal' before parliament again she'd have to start a new session of parliament (otherwise Bercow might shout at her). That would mean an end to the DUP deal, so they might vote down the Queen's speech, with all that entails. Dunno if all that is exactly true.

The holiday home just below our place is owned by a lovely German couple, retired now so they visit at least twice a year. They stopped by for beer and snacks and the guy, Uli, asked me if I was any the wiser about Brexit since we last met last autumn. No, I said, I'm more ignorant. And it's true.
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Old 17th April 2019, 02:37 PM   #1578
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
They're on holiday, recharging their batteries before getting mightily tangled-up again in a few weeks.

I'm also reading that for May to put her 'deal' before parliament again she'd have to start a new session of parliament (otherwise Bercow might shout at her). That would mean an end to the DUP deal, so they might vote down the Queen's speech, with all that entails. Dunno if all that is exactly true.

The holiday home just below our place is owned by a lovely German couple, retired now so they visit at least twice a year. They stopped by for beer and snacks and the guy, Uli, asked me if I was any the wiser about Brexit since we last met last autumn. No, I said, I'm more ignorant. And it's true.
Every bi-weekly Friday telecon I have with Hamburg, my colleagues ask about Brexit. I think they just enjoy my rants - generally saying that of course I haven't a scooby what's going on, because nobody does including our nominal prime minister.
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Old 17th April 2019, 02:52 PM   #1579
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?

I think parliament is due to meet again on 23rd April, so not long to wait until we get all the same proposals and votes all over again (eg, Mrs May's deal seems sure to be revived).
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Old 17th April 2019, 02:59 PM   #1580
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I think parliament is due to meet again on 23rd April, so not long to wait until we get all the same proposals and votes all over again (eg, Mrs May's deal seems sure to be revived).

Will that give them enough time to replenish their reserves of stupid?
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:40 PM   #1581
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I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
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Old 17th April 2019, 06:58 PM   #1582
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?

I've been trying to keep up with it from my feeds from the Guardian. They have one email newsletter that is just for Brexit.

It doesn't help, though. I'm still hopelessly confused, and it keeps on getting worse.

Apparently I'm not alone in this, more than a few Brits in this thread say the same thing.

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Old 17th April 2019, 07:42 PM   #1583
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm still hopelessly confused, and it keeps on getting worse.



You are obviously ready to be a Member of the British Parliament.


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Old 17th April 2019, 07:57 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
You are obviously ready to be a Member of the British Parliament.


Norm

I said I was confused.

Not brain dead.

Sheesh.
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Old 17th April 2019, 09:41 PM   #1585
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
The Express* is good and carries lots of level-headed reporting. I recommend its coverage of Princess Diana (she recently died, apparently). You will also get to.learn about a the severe weather that hasn't yet happened to the UK, as well as learning how Brexit is being betrayed.


*Uncyclopedia had a fairly accurate article about it, which was based on the Wikipedia article on Pepsi, but with "Pepsi" replaced with "Daily Express" and "Coke" replaced with "Daily Mail"
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Old 17th April 2019, 11:19 PM   #1586
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The Express* is good and carries lots of level-headed reporting. I recommend its coverage of Princess Diana (she recently died, apparently). You will also get to.learn about a the severe weather that hasn't yet happened to the UK, as well as learning how Brexit is being betrayed.


*Uncyclopedia had a fairly accurate article about it, which was based on the Wikipedia article on Pepsi, but with "Pepsi" replaced with "Daily Express" and "Coke" replaced with "Daily Mail"
I am not being completely sarcastic here. If you read the Express, you will understand how someone who gets their news from such a publication could still be in favour of Brexit.
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Old Yesterday, 02:15 AM   #1587
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I said I was confused.



Not brain dead.



Sheesh.
Don't worry I've reported him for making such a disgusting personal attack.
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Old Yesterday, 05:46 AM   #1588
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A wishful thought for an Orwellian, doublespeak world.

We all put forward our ideas as to how to argue democracy from first principles, providing definitions for important terms. This provides both semantic tether and logical structure. We then state those principles in terms of political freedom and political equality, now well-differentiated from the loose, even poorly-intentioned, terminology used on both sides of the pond today. Next, we unravel the issue as to whether or not being a minority voting block in a larger voting population is the end of democratic life, and the very definition of "tyranny." If properly done, my view is that every single issue I've heard about Brexit could be resolved in terms of the grounding political philosophy everyone says they wish to honour, but few really do. Then we send a copy to every member of Parliament, Congress, and the EU.

Mo' better wishful:
Those west of Europe might take the chance to see which, if any, logical derivations of human rights includes the right to bear firearms.
Or: We realize than few, if any, believe in democracy beyond being a means to organize in-group, tribal affairs, violating one of its core first principles, which is how we got the last century and this.
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Old Today, 01:08 AM   #1589
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
Try Politico Europe:

https://www.politico.eu/section/brexit/

and Tom McTague's twitter feed.

Tony Connelly of RTE gets a lot of inside detail (although he will never criticise the Irish Government).
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Old Today, 03:15 AM   #1590
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I think parliament is due to meet again on 23rd April, so not long to wait until we get all the same proposals and votes all over again (eg, Mrs May's deal seems sure to be revived).
Not so much survived as everything else turned into significantly more advanced stages of decay.

There is no majority for Bremain, it is the stated goal of two largest parliamentary parties. No deal Brexit in a vote fares even worse than the deal. Obviously Theresa May will continue pushing it, to some extent I fully appreciate why: nothing else is remotely acceptable.

A democrat would call a second referendum between the three choices, but neither she nor Corbyn belong to the delluded sect that think the opinions of people should be taken into account, if there is a chance they might disagree with policy.

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Old Today, 06:10 AM   #1591
Wildy
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Is the reason why it's now October so it'll be spooky?
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Old Today, 08:58 AM   #1592
Information Analyst
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Is the reason why it's now October so it'll be spooky?
It's because they don't want it to run into early November....
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Old Today, 10:41 AM   #1593
catsmate
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Every bi-weekly Friday telecon I have with Hamburg, my colleagues ask about Brexit. I think they just enjoy my rants - generally saying that of course I haven't a scooby what's going on, because nobody does including our nominal prime minister.
Yeah, I have that too.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?
The idiots aren't in parliamentary session.

Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Will that give them enough time to replenish their reserves of stupid?
Judging by the rants of the pro-Brexit EurParl hopefuls; yes, definately.

Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
Start here.
Actually start here. It's a decent summary of UKGov's stupidity, arrogance and ineptitude.
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