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Tags war crime charges , winston churchill , World War II history

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Old 14th September 2017, 08:47 AM   #601
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
No, but it does show it was more complicated than simply going "Hitler bad". Indeed, the blame for the Holocaust goes a long way...Hitler by himself could not have achieved it, and neither could his closest henchmen. There are, indeed, whole books on how it was able to happen, and where things went wrong.

Which is precisely what I've been getting at wrt the Bengal Famine. It took a lot of events, and decisions along the chain (and branches) to create the disaster.
Neither of those in any way absolve or lessen the responsibility of Hitler or Churchill. You're using "it's complicated" not as an inroad to better understand the event in its context (as the "whole books" you refer to do) but as an apologetic shield. No event in a state is entirely the product of one man's actions, so the objection is entirely moot.
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:12 AM   #602
Tolls
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Neither of those in any way absolve or lessen the responsibility of Hitler or Churchill. You're using "it's complicated" not as an inroad to better understand the event in its context (as the "whole books" you refer to do) but as an apologetic shield. No event in a state is entirely the product of one man's actions, so the objection is entirely moot.
No I'm not using it as an "apologetic shield" of any sort.

This started because caveman1917 claimed Churchill was the cause of the famine. He was not, pure and simple. By the time the food transport that is often brought up was diverted the famine had already set in. People were already dying.

That is the argument I am countering here. That is why I keep bringing up that it was more complicated than one man's awful decisions, if people want to understand what happened.
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:32 AM   #603
TubbaBlubba
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The famine didn't occur in a vacuum. British imperial practices and export requirements were a contributing cause. As HoG, Churchill was ultimately responsible.
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:45 AM   #604
Craig B
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
The famine didn't occur in a vacuum. British imperial practices and export requirements were a contributing cause. As HoG, Churchill was ultimately responsible.
That's true, but it doesn't make him personally a murderous maniac killing millions of Bengalis. It means that imperial exploitation, of which Churchill was indeed an enthusiastic proponent, produces atrocious results, including death caused by famine and war. I say it again, Churchill in this respect was a typical imperialist, not personally a murderous psychopath.

If we want to accuse him of war crimes, we need to look at the record of his conduct in wars, and see if he committed any.
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Old 14th September 2017, 10:27 AM   #605
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's true, but it doesn't make him personally a murderous maniac killing millions of Bengalis. It means that imperial exploitation, of which Churchill was indeed an enthusiastic proponent, produces atrocious results, including death caused by famine and war. I say it again, Churchill in this respect was a typical imperialist, not personally a murderous psychopath.
Agreed.
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Old Today, 01:12 PM   #606
Mondial
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In WW1 Churchill was very happy to see the Lusitania go to the bottom because he thought it would bring America into the war on the side of Britain. He was instrumental in setting up the Lusitania to be sunk. As First Lord of the Admiralty he knew that the German naval codes had been broken and was aware that enemy submarines patrolled the area where the Lusitania was sailing. In spite of this he did not provide an escort or tell the captain to change course -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10510
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