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#2001 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,001
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#2002 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6,665
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And I'll be grateful for it! But perhaps that would be in another thread.
I have often taken close up pictures of the Moon with my iPhone, but I have always wondered why the Moon looks so much sharper to the naked eye than on these photos. Now I have read that the eye does not register atmospheric disturbances, but the short exposure time of a camera sees a slightly blurred image, and "professional" amateurs stack at least 40 pictures of the Moon to get a sharp picture. So it is not just in low light situations that stacking is needed. |
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Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none! |
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#2003 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,001
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This would take us a long way from the topic of this thread, and would have little to do with any conspiracy theories, at least directly.
How about I start a thread in the SMM&T board? |
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#2004 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 22,278
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That sounds like a good idea. But while we're on the subject of astronomy, Apollo, and "Why no stars?" we should pause to remember the great Bill Kaysing (not an astronomer) who declared that the lunar surface photos contained no stars because NASA knew they couldn't get the stars in the right places and even amateur astronomers would know instantly that the photos were fake because the stars were in the wrong places. I just have to ask why NASA can't have retained a few of these astronomers to ensure the stars were in the right places in photographs. And why just leaving the stars out altogether was someone's idea of a good solution, if astronomers would supposedly expect to see stars.
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#2005 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,564
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It certainly seems that the people making arguments about stars have very little experience with photography. At night on earth, it takes a long exposure to get stars to show up depending on aperture and sensitivity (or film speed for film photography). Since there is no atmospheric scattering on the moon, it should be possible to take photo of stars during the lunar day, but of course, an exposure that would show stars would completely overexpose sunlit ground, and a photo exposed to show detail on the sunlit ground would not show stars. This should be pretty obvious to anybody with any experience with photography beyond quick snapshots with a point-and-shoot.
Similarly for eyes. I would think that if you were looking through a clear helmet lens (If I am not mistaken, the helmet lenses used on Apollo were darkened to protect the eyes of the astronauts.), if you had your eyes shielded from sunlit ground, and allowed them time to accommodate, I would think that you would be able to see stars on the moon in the daytime. However, if your eyes are adapted to sunlit ground, you're not seeing any stars. OTOH, I remember at least one moon hoaxer who claimed that different shadow angles (due to perspective and irregular terrain) meant that there were two light sources. My immediate reaction to this was, "no, dummy; if there were two light sources, everything would be showing two shadows" (should be obvious to anyone who hasn't spent there entire life in Mom's basement, which is lit by a single light bulb), so we are not dealing with people who know much about anything at all. |
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#2006 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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I ran onto a fella critiquing his video, and I said the same thing about shadows. He asked what my experience was with cameras, "because anyone that had knowledge of photography would know what's wrong with the images". I answered truthfully very little experience and he banned me.
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#2007 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#2008 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,376
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I've pointed out to a number of people advancing that theory that it would actually have been very easy to produce the stars in any faked photos, and they would have matched perfectly because they would have been images of the real stars.
NASA could have easily created a catalog of star images from mountaintop observatories. Knowing the claimed landing sites they could then have selected the correct background stars for any photograph, and easily composited them into the convenient black sky hold-out areas in the images. It would have been one of the easiest and cheapest parts of the whole hoax. |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#2009 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,039
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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#2010 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,986
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one., the hoaxers are smart enough to do all that they did, down to having friggin rockets launch, but they aren't smart enough to out stars in the sky in moon pictures
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"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets |
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#2011 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Niceville, Florida, USA
Posts: 5,740
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This was one of my earliest exposures to moon hoax "theories." When I read Bill Kaysing's claim I got the impression that he believed the star field on the moon would somehow appear different because the stars are being viewed from a different position. This of course ignores the fact that such a difference in position is vanishingly small compared with the distance to even the closest star, and that therefore the appearances of the starfield on both the earth and the moon are identical to the naked eye. |
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"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
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#2012 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,376
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I worked out once that if you reduced 1 AU to 1 foot, Proxima Centauri would be 52 miles away.
I've also run across numerous people who seem to think that with no atmosphere the stars should be "many times brighter than on earth". To which I respond by pointing out that even at sea level, earth's atmosphere is about 98% transparent to visible light, and there is essentially zero perceptible difference between star brightness on the moon and what you'd see on a clear, moonless night on, say Mauna Kea. |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#2013 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 43,373
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#2014 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,120
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Any parallax caused by the moon going around the earth in a half million mile wide orbits rather pales into insignificance compared to the earth and moon's 186 million mile wide orbits of the sun. And even that 6-monthly stellar parallax is so small that there is no chance whatever of its registering on any Apollo photography.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_parallax "The angles involved in these calculations are very small and thus difficult to measure. The nearest star to the Sun (and also the star with the largest parallax), Proxima Centauri, has a parallax of 0.7685 ± 0.0002 arcsec.[4] This angle is approximately that subtended by an object 2 centimeters in diameter located 5.3 kilometers away." For perspective (lol) the cameras used on the moon had a wide angle lens with a field of view of about 90° side to side. That's 324000 arcseconds across the width of a photo. And you'd be looking for at most a 0.001 arcsecond shift in position of proxima centauri from the moon's point of view compared to earth. If you could see it, which you couldn't. And if the alignment was just so, which I have no idea. |
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#2015 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Niceville, Florida, USA
Posts: 5,740
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Yeah, even before I joined the old BA forum, I emailed Jay and asked him "Doesn't the moon pass through the same position previously occupied by the earth (with respect to the sun) several times a year?" Jay responded that in fact the star field looks virtually the same from everywhere in the solar system. |
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"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
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#2016 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 555
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This might keep you happy for a while. If the Moon Were Only 1 Pixel - A Tediously Accurate Scale Model Of The Solar System Scroll right a bit then click on the c to get things moving.
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#2017 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,376
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__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#2018 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,986
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Here's my simplistic version of the solar system. Just treating all orbits as circular, I just wanted to give some perspective of how far away Pluto is. The sun is a speck in the middle. The smallest ring is Mercury
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"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets |
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#2019 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
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__________________
![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#2020 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,033
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A bit of thread necromancy in “honor” of cosmored/fatfreddy/etc.: the strident Apollo hoax true believer who said he lived near Madrid. It so happens the Madrid DSN station was the one that reacquired the Artemis 1 spacecraft after it passed behind the moon, preparing to enter Distant Retrograde Orbit.
That guy was a piece of work. Anyone who disagreed with him for any reason at all was automatically a liar. He literally refused to accept that anyone else could honestly believe the Apollo missions occurred. |
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#2021 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,651
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Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
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#2022 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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#2023 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,819
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There is a well known Australian moon hoax proponent who is part of a Facebook group where many such people gather to show off just how dumb they are.
His current stance is that it is a genuine mission, and is defending it against all-comers, which is massively hilarious. Another admin on that group, who claims to work for the Chinese Space Agency (he doesn't) and is a physicist (he isn't), holds that Artemis is genuine, will land on the moon and once it does NASA will 'come clean' about Apollo. He claims China knows it's a hoax and is going along with it for some nonsense reason or other. The rest of the drooling slack-jawed morons in that group, and elsewhere, are as wrong about this mission as they are every other space bound object, and it's a miracle they can feed themselves unaided. |
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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#2024 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 488
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Oh, but the evidence is already overwhelming. Their real-time website is so CGI generated, it's comical. Seems even cheaper than the Apollo missions' supposed films, except they finally added stars. From: https://www.nasa.gov/specials/trackartemis/ Screenshot (27).jpg Screenshot (28).jpg Okay, back to reality. Even pretending to be a hoax supporter in my first paragraph left me feeling shameful, dirty, and a bit nauseous. This is still a neat site to monitor the progress of the mission. |
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#2025 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,819
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Whenever my dog sees another dog on the TV she instantly starts barking in rage at it, then stops when it goes off screen. Space-deniers when they see the words "telemetry driven animation"...
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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#2026 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,376
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__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#2027 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,819
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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#2028 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 488
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#2029 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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#2030 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,376
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Ah yes, that's it.
Last I saw of him he'd apparently been taking college courses in physics, or something, and was affirming new space exploration missions like the Mars landers, but was still obstinately refusing to admit he got it so embarrassingly wrong about Apollo. |
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Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
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#2031 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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Somewhere on the forums that I visit, an individual suggested a flight back to A12 and capture the Surveyor 3 with the descent stage of the LM still setting on the Moon. I would agree with that, but it is unlikely in my opinion that NASA will undergo a mission to a place it already visited. The only aspect that would be new, bring back pieces of Surveyor 3, again, and pieces of A12 to understand what 50+ years of radiation damage has occurred to both.
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#2032 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,819
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That might have been me on Apollohoax (different name there!). While Apollo 12 isn't as spectacular (or maybe as geologically interesting) as elsewhere, we do have two objects where we know exactly how long they've been there. The chance to study their degradation seems sensible if you're looking at establishing a permanent presence.
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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#2033 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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#2034 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 22,278
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We did a whole massive spacecraft for this back in the early STS era: the Long Duration Exposure Facility (LDEF). Its job was to expose various materials (both human-made and natural) to the space environment for a prescribed period. Then the Challenger accident happened and it had to stay in orbit for far longer than intended.
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#2035 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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https://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/mic/ldef/
Quote:
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#2036 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 22,278
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The LDEF findings are extensive and hard to summarize succinctly. But atomic oxygen emerged as the primary factor in whether materials survived or were degraded to the point of engineering concern. Some materials performed exceptionally well beyond expectations; others did not.
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#2037 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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Oxygen being the extender of the degrader?
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#2038 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,232
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
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#2039 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,033
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Degrader. Atomic oxygen is very reactive. We had a materials science satellite which required exceptional cleanliness on one side; before release, the Shuttle crew would use the arm to point that side into the velocity vector (sort of like sticking your head out of the window of your car while going down the highway) to let the monatomic O “scrub” the area.
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#2040 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,632
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