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Tags Niels Harrit , Peter Mangs , truther violence

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Old 8th February 2013, 07:27 AM   #41
chrismohr
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Helter Skelter DID inspire Charles Manson, he believed the lyrics of that song were coded instructions from the Beatles to kill Sharon Tate, which was my point. The belief that 19 terrorists boarded planes on 9/11 also inspired nut cases to physically attack mosques and Muslims in the U.S. Trying to blame Harrit for a psycho killer who believes 9/11 CD theories is a pretty chilling line of reasoning. I believe Harrit is wrong, but there have been other minority opinions (even some "paranoid" theories) that have panned out. This business of attacking the messengers (even when they are wrong) instead of rebutting their theories does NOT sit well with me.
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Old 8th February 2013, 08:32 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Helter Skelter DID inspire Charles Manson, he believed the lyrics of that song were coded instructions from the Beatles to kill Sharon Tate, which was my point. The belief that 19 terrorists boarded planes on 9/11 also inspired nut cases to physically attack mosques and Muslims in the U.S. Trying to blame Harrit for a psycho killer who believes 9/11 CD theories is a pretty chilling line of reasoning. I believe Harrit is wrong, but there have been other minority opinions (even some "paranoid" theories) that have panned out. This business of attacking the messengers (even when they are wrong) instead of rebutting their theories does NOT sit well with me.
I would like to take this opportunity to agree completely with the above.
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Old 8th February 2013, 10:20 AM   #43
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The killer was inspired by Harrit; to Believe in Harrit's CT

Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Helter Skelter DID inspire Charles Manson, he believed the lyrics of that song were coded instructions from the Beatles to kill Sharon Tate, which was my point. The belief that 19 terrorists boarded planes on 9/11 also inspired nut cases to physically attack mosques and Muslims in the U.S. Trying to blame Harrit for a psycho killer who believes 9/11 CD theories is a pretty chilling line of reasoning. I believe Harrit is wrong, but there have been other minority opinions (even some "paranoid" theories) that have panned out. This business of attacking the messengers (even when they are wrong) instead of rebutting their theories does NOT sit well with me.
My point, the Beatles were not spreading lies. Harrit, spread lies. Did Harrit inspire the murder of minorities like this case. That is far out. But Harrit spreads lies which could support hate. Harrit is not writing song to inspire, Harrit is directly spreading the idea of hate, of blaming unknown people for 911. Did ideas inspire McVeigh?

Charles Manson inspired Charles Manson to make up a delusion about a Beatles song. He failed to ask the Beatles. We can ask Harrit about his lie, and he supports his lie. Ask the Beatles about the song, and they say it was inspired by a game, a slide, it clearly is. Anyone can see it is an analogy to a slide, only Manson's delusional mind could tie the bible to a song about a kids game. Thinks about what a delusional mind can do with lies from Gage, Harrit, and Jones, blaming our government for 911, and taking action like McVeigh, directly linked to the claims of Gage, Jones and Harrit. BINGO

The Beatles were not spreading lies, calling the government complicit in murder. 911 truth is spreading lies, implying the government, "they", did it. Beatles song was about a kids game, nothing about killing. 911 truth is about hate, spreading lies. Like Hitler, spreading lies about Jews.

Don't attack the messenger, Harrit is only spreading lies, don't attack him for spreading lies which might inspire actions based on lies. Harrit is yelling fire in the insane minds of nuts, needing one more push to do something stupid. Don't attack the people promoting paranoid conspiracy theories, they can't do any harm. Did Hitler promoting his paranoid conspiracy theories on Jews do any harm. NO. Let people spread lies unchecked, it is the appeasing thing to do. Be polite to liars, let them speak, do not smack down the lies, let them go as if it is a debate. Who would destroy stuff when inspired by ideas? Not NAZIs.

Spreading lies like Harrit does is dangerous, the same with Jones. To say these failed nuts inspired a killer of minorities is not likely, but these nuts in 911 truth do inspire insane people to do insane things.

911 truth can't inspire people to do anything?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=252986
Inspired by 911 truth. BINGO

I doubt the killer in question used Harrit's paranoid conspiracy theories as a reason to kill minorities - it does not make sense. I think a mind so stupid to kill is ripe for the silly paranoid conspiracy theories Harrit implies, and spreads by his thermite fantasy. The Beatles did not inspire hate with their song, they were not preaching lies. Harrit preaches lies, and spreads his fantasy as if it was true. What action will he inspire with his fake science?

I did not say I did not agree with you for this murderer, as Harrit blames 911 on new unknown murderers based on his lies.

911 did inspire nut cases to blindly attack Islam symbols and people - we have neoNAZIs and bigots all over the US. Our last two elections have brought out the ugly closet bigots. 19 terrorists acts did inspire nuts to do dumb stuff.

Like NAZIs inspired by Hitler, we can't blame Hitler. The people chose to be murderers. When a 911 truth believe breaks the law in the name of 911 truth, we can't blame the messenger for spreading the lies and fantasy which inspired the act.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=252986
She did it, it is not Gage's fault he spreads lies that inspired her, she is crazy like Gage; insane. Ideas can't make people do anything.

Like the fringe thousands Gage inspires, it is limited to believe in a dumbed down fantasy that defies reason. People like those Gage attracts are not thinking for themselves at present. Unlike the Beatles song, Gage directly implies an inside job, like Harrit.
The killer was inspired by Harrit, but most likely, only to believe in fantasy paranoid conspiracies. To believe in Harrit's lies on 911. Unless minorities are a substitute for the 911 famous "they", there is no direct inspiration to kill, only inspiration to believe lies so stupid only Gage, Jones, Harrit, and their followers adopt them.

Who are "they"; when will Harrit name "them" who planted his 100 tons of thermite.

Last edited by beachnut; 8th February 2013 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 8th February 2013, 11:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
This business of attacking the messengers (even when they are wrong) instead of rebutting their theories does NOT sit well with me.
I couldn't disagree with you more.

You can treat them with kid gloves if you want. I will not. They are a direct, tangible threat to our society. They believe that thousands or millions of their fellow citizens are "in on it," and they might act accordingly. More importantly, the ringleaders foment this delusional nonsense with impressionable people, who most likely have a few screws loose already.

You just couldn't be more wrong. Paranoid conspiracy theorists should be attacked relentlessly, mercilessly, without end because they spread lies that poison minds and threaten our society's well being.
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Old 8th February 2013, 12:46 PM   #45
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Interesting conversation. Beachnut I'm glad you at least somewhat agree with me. But to be clear for everyone: Charles Manson believed a Beatles song told him to murder people. John Hinckley saw a provocately dressed Jodi Foster in the movie Taxi Drive and decided to impress her by shooting the President. Niels Harrit believes people rigged the WTC Buildings and were brought down by CD and a murderer believes his theories. Crazy people do crazy things, and what triggers them is not reality-based. Harrit has never advocated going on a killing spree to protest 9/11 CD. He advocates a new investigation and is a nonviolent man. So he has no responsibility and the connection between him and the crazed killed is nonexistent.

There is a even a value in cantankerous people trying to dig up dirt on our society. Very often they are wrong but not always. In the 1980s, I wrote several articles and a book called Central America for the Beginner, carefully documenting the torture and the death squads in those countries. I was right about most of what I said, and years ahead of the traditional media. I was wrong in 1990 when I thought the CIA engineered Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and my research proved my own theory wrong. I believe the 9/11 Truth people are wrong, but not insane or evil. Gage took a huge pay cut, Kevin Ryan and Steven Jones got fired, Harrit put his reputation on the line, and I don't know a single 9/11 Truth person who is enjoying a net benefit from their public stands. Now that I have done all my research I can say with some authority they are wrong, but the next "crazed" theory may yet dig something up, and incorrect theories along the way are the price we pay for this "eternal vigilance".

So let's stop trying to link murdrous madmen with 9/11 Truth advocates. It's irrational. As Oystein's back-of-the-napkin calculations attest, there isn't even a correlation between murderers and 9/11 truth theories.

What I dona't like about 9/11 Truth is that 1) it uses irrational arguments and cloaks them in science 2) it takes good-hearted, well-meaning people and channels the energy of their desire to do good in the world into a cause that has no factual foundation. But even there, not every move to make the world a better place is 100% efficient, as it were. Before Rosa Parks sat down at the front of the bus, I think there were several angry young black males who did the same thing and just got beaten and hauled off to jail. It takes a lot of attempts to have one success in the realm of political justice and fairness.
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Old 9th February 2013, 04:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
2) it takes good-hearted, well-meaning people and channels the energy of their desire to do good in the world into a cause that has no factual foundation.
Well... I'm not sure how many of those there are in the truth movement. A few probably, like Ed Asner and that crazy comedian. But they are the fringe of the fringe these days. It seems to be right-leaning internet slacktivists.

The great virtue of a fake conspiracy is that it calls on you to do nothing.

- George Monbiot

Last edited by carlitos; 9th February 2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:41 AM   #47
chrismohr
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Well... I'm not sure how many of those there are in the truth movement. A few probably, like Ed Asner and that crazy comedian. But they are the fringe of the fringe these days. It seems to be right-leaning internet slacktivists.

The great virtue of a fake conspiracy is that it calls on you to do nothing.

- George Monbiot
Carlitos, Here in Denver/Boulder at least it's mostly lefties who come out to 9/11 Truth meetings, by a factor of at least 3-1. Most are indeed well-meaning, based on extensive personal contact.
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and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
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Old 7th December 2014, 06:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There are lots of Truther Murderers. Here's a partial list:

Sean Fitzgerald: Murdered his father with a knife because he thought his dad was the devil. Member of 9-11 Truth Visibility and We Are Change Colorado (WACCO).

Richard Poplawski: Murdered three cops who had come to his parents' house to answer a domestic disturbance (his mother was kicking him out and he refused to go). Alex Jones fan.

Jared Loughner:



Curtis Maynard:



9-11 Truther, Holocaust Denier, you name it. First class kook.

James Von Brunn: Killed a guard at the Holocaust Museum. White supremacist, Holocaust Denier, and 9-11 Truther.

Kurt Sonnenfeld: Murdered his wife, currently on the lam in Chile. Claims to have video evidence that 9-11 was an inside job.

There are probably some more; the Pentagon shooter a couple years back was a Troofer, but (fortunately) didn't succeed in actually killing anybody.
Originally Posted by Ape of Good Hope View Post
Another sad story to add to the list:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=252708
[Oystein adds: Phillip Marshall]
A recent case of someone who killed first his wife then himself is Tod Fletcher:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/in-memo...2-2014/5407016
Fletcher had been a contributer and helper for David Ray Griffin.
I am hesitant to say "murder" - according to Griffin, Fletcher's wife had already suffered more than 8 years from some sort of "hypersensitivity" which "had escalated to an intolerable degree, as she was made sick by everything in her environment, including her own clothes. Being in agony all the time, Susan needed help to end her life, and Tod did not wish to live on without her."
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Old 22nd December 2014, 03:20 AM   #49
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In slightly the same vein (depending on who you ask ), it appears that the current Danish Minister for Taxation took part in a "Just Asking Questions"-type documentary on 9/11 a few years ago, when he was still a backbencher member of parliament.

Apparently only a single Danish tabloid picked up on it when he was promoted to the post this fall, asking if he still felt that "the American people still haven't gotten the answers they want". He managed to deflect it with an excuse, that he was too busy getting up to speed to answer questions from the press. Nothing further came of it.
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Old 11th December 2016, 07:30 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by BenjaminTR View Post
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
ETA: I vaguely remember a study (? Or hypothesis?) that was discussed here quite a while ago, according to which belief in Conspiracy Theories is positively (and causally?) correlated to the propensity to commit just the kinds of things that are attributed to the mythical conspirators:
- If the CT alleges fraud, then CT believers are more likely to be fraudsters themselves
- If the CT alleged cover-up, then the CT believers are more likely to state that they would cover up conspiracies
- If the CT alleged murder, then the CT believers are more likely to state that they would murder, if they were part of the conspiracy

So it would seem it's the propensity to commit the crimes and deviant behaviour typical for CTs that makes one a CT believer - not the other way round - that belief in CTs makes you commit crimes or engage in deviant behavious.
I believe the study you were thinking of is this one:

http://www.academia.edu/1297450/Does...ss_to_conspire
Since the old link doesn't work any longer, here is one that now works - on the academic page of its lead author Karen Douglas:
Douglas, K., & Sutton, R. (2011). Does it take one to know one? Endorsement of conspiracy theories is influenced by personal willingness to conspire. British Journal Of Social Psychology, 50, 544-552. doi:10.1111/j.2044-8309.2010.02018.x
Online and free: https://kar.kent.ac.uk/26187/1/Dougl...011%20BJSP.pdf
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