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Tags 9/11 conspiracy theories , Bentham journals , nanothermite , Niels Harrit , steven jones , thermite

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Old 18th May 2009, 08:48 AM   #281
A W Smith
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where to get wtc paint sample

Just a walk in the park with a pen knife for some scrapings and a vial to put your paint chip in.
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM11BD
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Old 18th May 2009, 09:25 AM   #282
BigAl
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
Just a walk in the park with a pen knife for some scrapings and a vial to put your paint chip in.
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM11BD
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/m...0f06d3ec93.jpg
There is in Manhattan an I-beam from WTC as a new monument.
It's on Church a block or two above Vesey, on the east side by the church. It's reachable for the purposes of getting a sample.

There is a plaque but I didn't get a chance to read it.
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Old 18th May 2009, 02:05 PM   #283
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Hi all....Im new to this forum so forgive me if this has already been discussed....

Im not quite sure I understand the point of the "resistance" test....they give the equation for resistivity (RA/L) and then tested the red material saying its resistivity was too high....

How many samples did they take for the measurement?
How many different red chips did they test?
What kinds of paint are they comparing this to?
Are they comparing the sample to brand new paint or paint that has been aged?
Could there be contaminates in this .5mm * .5mm are of "red material" that could create a lower than expected resistivity?

There are so many details missing from this test...it seems difficult to gather any data at all from it.

I would never conduct a resistivity test with so little specifics given...its seems like a very poor test indeed.

Does anyone have more information on this test they conducted?

Thanks.
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Old 19th May 2009, 05:04 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by henryco View Post
Molten iron (many microspheres are almost pure iron or iron oxyde) is a proof of extremely high temps: 1400C.
To reach these temps you need to concentrate the heat released by a reaction in a small volume.

- The reaction of a given volume V of Thermite gives enough energy to ideally melt ~ 2V of iron
(16kJ/cc for thermite; 7.8kJ/cc to melt iron: (470 J/(C.kg) x 1500C + 270000J/kg) x 8000/1O^6 kg/cc)

- The reaction of a given volume V of Coal (carbon) gives enough energy to ideally melt ~ 10V of iron
(79kJ/cc i.e ~ 5x more than thermite)

But each C atom needs an oxygen molecule from the air thus a volume V of Carbon needs
32/12 (ratio of molar masses ) times 2267/1.43 (ratio of densities) times 5 (20% of oxygen in the air) = ~ 20000 V of air.

Therefore when a very small organic or pure carbon particle burns in the air, its energy is released very fast (because it is very small i.e big S/V ratio ) but this energy is released in a huge volume ~ 20000 V so a tiny iron particle (volume V also) around can only get ~1/20000 of this total energy. So it cannot reach the temps able to melt it (see above) . Thus for quite obvious reasons coal or any organic stuff that needs the air oxygen can only melt iron when the heat is accumulated in time and concentrated in space as in a blast furnace.

Let us investigate the extreme case of an organic and iron microparticles confined together into a very small chamber (comparable to their size) and submitted to an air flow ~ thousands of V on a very short time scale (because you must be faster than the dissipative effects which are also very effective for such microparticles ).
But then the particles must also retain much of the heat which is hardly believable ( the air flow would at the same time produce energy lost at high rates). So even this extreme scenario is untenable.

Therefore i see no way to reach the temps of molten iron for such a reaction at the microscopic scale. The reductant and oxydiser (good english ?) must be together in the chips allowing the heat to be released concentrated in a small volume as for a thermitic reaction: high density of energy needed! organic stuff +oxygen = very low energy density because huge volume!

I really need no more to be convinced that the chips are highly energetics by themselves and knowing their composition and the composition of the residuals the evidence is clearly for a Fe2O3 +Al thermitic reaction.


Fred
Very interesting post. I myself had suggested, in one of the physforum.com 911 mega-threads, that most of the heat generated by the WTC fires was lost via venting through broken windows.

However, in large fires, you have major heat transfer through radiation. Counteracting that, in terms of radiative head absorbed by a column, is radiative heat absorbed by smoke.

The problem is really horribly complex. I attended a lecture once on advanced computer analysis of a flame, and they even created a genetic algorithm for one piece of the problem.

Anyway, the point is made that simplistic comparisons to more energy-dense materials like paper, are silly. Do you mind if I copy your post, verbatim, to the911forum.freeforums.org?
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Old 19th May 2009, 02:39 PM   #285
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I haven't been able to study the paper thoroughly yet but just wanted to make one point about the DSC analysis.

10 degrees celcius per minute as heating rate strikes me as way too fast for a sample of unknown substance. Especially as it is not conducted in inert atmosphere and there is (as far as I understand) an unknown organic matrix.

In my lab we analyse samples for ignition temperature on a daily basis. Now it is normal to use 10 degrees per minute as heating rate in industrial labs as the one I'm connected to. But for more accurate measurments it's recommended to go as low as 0,5 degrees per minute. But you don't have time for that on a daily basis for obvious reasons.

I'll see if I got time to study it more.
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Old 19th May 2009, 03:26 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by henryco View Post
Thus for quite obvious reasons coal or any organic stuff that needs the air oxygen can only melt iron when the heat is accumulated in time and concentrated in space as in a blast furnace.
Well that would go for liquified iron, however "molten" is usually used as a colloqial term describing something that is starting to lose its initial integrity and change throuh heat, bending or behaving like cookie-dough, licorice etc.
It's something any swordsmith could traditionally expect if leaving the sword too long in the burning coals et al. If they did, and then struck that hammer on that steel, or iron, you could at times get something of an explosion were parts of the material were released with force like projectiled dripplets.

I'm not a building though, just a smithy.
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Old 20th May 2009, 06:57 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Do you mind if I copy your post, verbatim, to the911forum.freeforums.org?
of course you can copy it , if it helps or if someone else can find the bug in what i say i'll be interested...

the complications are expected when you want to reach an accurate picture of what is going on, not when the energy densities are orders of magnitude below the necessary threshold...

fred
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Old 20th May 2009, 09:09 AM   #288
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Metamars : and your comments about that paint ?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=168

It gives the same energy than thermite !

Is it not amazing ?

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Old 29th May 2009, 08:38 AM   #289
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I've still got a few questions regarding the 'thermitic material' in the red/grey chips. I'd appreciate any specific answers to them!

1) Does anyone know what the ignition temp of nanothermites or nanothermite sol-gels are? Kevin Ryan claims that the red/grey chips combusted at the same temperature as those.

2) Jones et al. are claiming that the formation of 'iron-rich' spheres' after ignition of the chips proves that combustion temperature was at least 1400 C. Can anyone provide good evidence to disprove that claim?

3) methyl ethyl ketone was used as a solvent to demonstrate the difference between ordinary paints and the red/grey chips. According to Steven Jones, while paint samples did dissolve, the chips did not. But apparently there was some dissolution of the chips after all, as the materials did separate out to a degree - how does one interpret such behavior?

4) The (mass?) of red/grey chips is approx. = .1% of dust in samples collected. Any good ideas what the total amount of the chip material might have been? I know the WTC dust contained many different materials, according to the USGS 'plaster, paint, foam, glass fibers and fragments, fiberglass, cement, vermiculite (used as a fire retardant instead of asbestos), chrysotile (asbestos), cotton fibers and lint, tarry and charred wood, and soot.' (Chemical and Engineering News, 2003 http://pubs.acs.org/cen/NCW/8142aerosols.html )

The article above cites 'more than 1 million tons of dust enveloped lower Manhattan'. I'm not sure how accurate that figure is, but .1% of that would be 1000 tons! That's a huge amount of material, certainly not plausible for nanothermite as envisioned by Jones et al.
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Old 30th May 2009, 06:46 PM   #290
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The lack of chemical knowledge by Jones, et. al. is astounding. The use of a solvent such as MEK instead of methylene chloride, DMF, or DMF-DMSO to attack the organic matrix further confirms that no chemists were involved in the analyses. Couple that with the ridiculous conductivity test [have conductivity meter, need work] and one can see why no real journal would publish this trash.
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Old 3rd June 2009, 12:59 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
2) Jones et al. are claiming that the formation of 'iron-rich' spheres' after ignition of the chips proves that combustion temperature was at least 1400 C. Can anyone provide good evidence to disprove that claim?
To form spheres like those described by Jones the material should have been exposed to temperatures close to or above the melting point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jones et al never showed that the spheres were not present before the combustion. This is something they perhaps should address.

Quote:
4) The (mass?) of red/grey chips is approx. = .1% of dust in samples collected. Any good ideas what the total amount of the chip material might have been?
It's impossible to tell from this paper. With the totally random and undocumented sampling procedure you can't tell wether these samples are representative or not.
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Old 3rd June 2009, 05:08 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Leviath View Post
To form spheres like those described by Jones the material should have been exposed to temperatures close to or above the melting point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jones et al never showed that the spheres were not present before the combustion. This is something they perhaps should address.


It's impossible to tell from this paper. With the totally random and undocumented sampling procedure you can't tell wether these samples are representative or not.

I've been a member of this forum for two months. I came in when the discussion about Jones's paint chips was just getting started. One thing we can do here is post a reminder every month that Jones and his accomplices have not yet seen fit to submit their samples to any independent lab for testing. April has passed, and May has passed. I would bet that we will be ticking off the months far into the future.
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Old 3rd June 2009, 07:53 AM   #293
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Not that I am a defender of the Jones paper, as I think it is incredibly poor in terms of its scientific content, approach, or lack there of, but from the paper, page 19 (journal page#):

Quote:
In the post-DSC residue, charred-porous material and
numerous microspheres and spheroids were observed.
Many
of these were analyzed, and it was found that some were
iron-rich, which appear shiny and silvery in the optical microscope,
and some were silicon-rich, which appear transparent
or translucent when viewed with white light; see photographs
taken using a Nikon microscope (Fig. 20).
The abundant iron-rich spheres are of particular interest
in this study; none were observed in these particular chips
prior to DSC-heating.
Spheres rich in iron already demonstrate
the occurrence of very high temperatures, well above
the 700 C temperature reached in the DSC, in view of the
high melting point of iron and iron oxide [5]. Such high temperatures
indicate that a chemical reaction occurred.
So according to them, the spheres were not there (in the chips, they do not say anything about them being the dust or not) prior to heating.

TAM
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Old 3rd June 2009, 08:03 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Not that I am a defender of the Jones paper, as I think it is incredibly poor in terms of its scientific content, approach, or lack there of, but from the paper, page 19 (journal page#):



So according to them, the spheres were not there (in the chips, they do not say anything about them being the dust or not) prior to heating.

TAM
This is true, but if we presume they were indeed formed during heating, then Sunstealer's observation that the spheres are rather heterogenous must be taken into account. The reason for that is because the melting point would probably be considerably lower than it would be had the spheres been truly homogenous iron.

From my point of view, though, I'd like some corroboration that the spheres were not already present and simply not easily observable in the dust. I know that sounds suspicious, but given most of the authors prior works, it's a fair challenge. If it turns out that they truly were not present previously, then I'd like to see some further analysis of said spheres, not mere assertions built on the former Jones paper.
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Old 3rd June 2009, 11:42 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
This is true, but if we presume they were indeed formed during heating, then Sunstealer's observation that the spheres are rather heterogenous must be taken into account. The reason for that is because the melting point would probably be considerably lower than it would be had the spheres been truly homogenous iron.

From my point of view, though, I'd like some corroboration that the spheres were not already present and simply not easily observable in the dust. I know that sounds suspicious, but given most of the authors prior works, it's a fair challenge. If it turns out that they truly were not present previously, then I'd like to see some further analysis of said spheres, not mere assertions built on the former Jones paper.
100% agree. As a matter of fact, I feel all of his paper and it's results are suspect, and unproven, until verified by a TRULY INDEPENDENT (no contact or relationship with Jones or any of the paper's authors) lab. What is amazing, is the silence about this paper now.

TAM
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Old 8th June 2009, 01:35 AM   #296
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I have spent much time trying to find again the kind of bi-layered red/grey staff i had shown in my presentation...in vain !
I could only find numerous red only chips which most probably have nothing to do with the grey/red chips of Harrit and co photos. These do not seem to produce any
iron microsphere below 500C (actually not big enough to be seen with the optical microscope, i'll try the electronic microscopy soon) and they crush when i try to catch them with my needle while i was told that the genuine chips are much more resistant...

Since according the authors the proportion of the "genuine chips" in the samples is large, i suspect there is something wrong with my samples: either falsified or not representative... or:
It's also possible that i have lost the most interesting material when i first extracted a few monthes ago the more magnetic particles : the one i extract now are less magnetic (for instance i see much less iron microspheres than i did) and only a much more powerful magnet allows me to extract them.

I would need another sample!

i have a third one which i did not pay enough attention because it was collected with a vacuum cleaner in an appartment (so great contamination by other staff than WTC dust). In this sample i can see many dark grey staffs with irregular red spots but these are so tiny particles that i can hardly extract them for testing in my small furnace. I'm going to try again...


Fred
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Old 8th June 2009, 04:13 AM   #297
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My suggestion Fred/Henry, in the name of science.

Get samples from someone independent of Jones. I am sure there are a number of other sources out there who have samples of WTC dust. If what Jones says is true, the red/grey chips should be found in any of the samples, in some quantity.

Just a suggestion.

TAM
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Old 8th June 2009, 06:58 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
My suggestion Fred/Henry, in the name of science.

Get samples from someone independent of Jones. I am sure there are a number of other sources out there who have samples of WTC dust. If what Jones says is true, the red/grey chips should be found in any of the samples, in some quantity.

Just a suggestion.

TAM
But my samples are not from Jones as far as i have understood. Each were sent independently (a different person) from the others. The common denominator is a tract in NY asking people if they have dust to send it for a scientific investigation related to health issues...
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Old 8th June 2009, 08:13 AM   #299
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So you received multiple samples, from multiple sources, not from Jones? Were the samples from the same people who sent Jones his samples?

My point is this. There are other labs, other institutions, who have conducted numerous tests on WTC dust. They are, in all likelihood, completely independent of Jones and the people he obtained his samples from. There for, to insure COMPLETE Independence from Jones, in terms of sample sourcing, the best thing would be to contact one of these researchers/labs, and ask for a sample of their collected dust.

If the red/grey chips show up in their samples, you can at least make a claim that these samples are found consistently through ALL WTC dust samples, not just those from Jones (or those who sent him the samples). If the red/grey chips are not found in these independent samples, then you have to wonder, BIG TIME, why the chips would be in Jones samples, and not in independent samples.

TAM
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Old 8th June 2009, 11:30 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by FineWine View Post
I've been a member of this forum for two months. I came in when the discussion about Jones's paint chips was just getting started. One thing we can do here is post a reminder every month that Jones and his accomplices have not yet seen fit to submit their samples to any independent lab for testing. April has passed, and May has passed. I would bet that we will be ticking off the months far into the future.
Dont expect anything anytime soon....

To be honest Im still trying to figure out WTF was the "resistivity" test supposed to prove...

I couldn't stop laughing when I read that particular paragraph in the Jones paper....what a load of crap.
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Old 8th June 2009, 11:45 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So you received multiple samples, from multiple sources, not from Jones?
exactly
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Were the samples from the same people who sent Jones his samples?
No
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Old 9th June 2009, 04:12 AM   #302
T.A.M.
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Originally Posted by henryco View Post
exactly


No
So did these "people" who sent you samples (I am assuming they sent them to you and not Jones), did they give you,

(A) contact information (or were the packages sent anonymously)?
(B) Did they give you any detail as to where they collected the dust, how they collected, and how long ago?

And are you saying that in these independent samples you originally found the red/grey chips, but now you cannot?

Thanks

TAM
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Old 9th June 2009, 04:17 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by henryco View Post
I have spent much time trying to find again the kind of bi-layered red/grey staff i had shown in my presentation...in vain !
I could only find numerous red only chips which most probably have nothing to do with the grey/red chips of Harrit and co photos. These do not seem to produce any
iron microsphere below 500C (actually not big enough to be seen with the optical microscope, i'll try the electronic microscopy soon) and they crush when i try to catch them with my needle while i was told that the genuine chips are much more resistant...

Since according the authors the proportion of the "genuine chips" in the samples is large, i suspect there is something wrong with my samples: either falsified or not representative... or:
It's also possible that i have lost the most interesting material when i first extracted a few monthes ago the more magnetic particles : the one i extract now are less magnetic (for instance i see much less iron microspheres than i did) and only a much more powerful magnet allows me to extract them.

I would need another sample!

i have a third one which i did not pay enough attention because it was collected with a vacuum cleaner in an appartment (so great contamination by other staff than WTC dust). In this sample i can see many dark grey staffs with irregular red spots but these are so tiny particles that i can hardly extract them for testing in my small furnace. I'm going to try again...


Fred
You were told the other chips were much more resistent? I am confused henry. In any of the samples you were sent, did you EVER, yourself, find any of these chips? I am asking because you say you were told the chips were much more resistent, but if you had handled and experimented on the chips themselves, first hand, would you not know that they were more resistant yourself?

I am just trying to get a grasp of your work, what you have done, who provided you with the original material, were there red/grey chips in any of your samples at any time, etc...

Please clarify...thanks

TAM
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Old 9th June 2009, 11:47 AM   #304
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I thought this paper was the 'smoking gun', the thing that was going to finally prove the 'inside job', it was going to be a huge deal, embraced by the scientific community, blown up all over the media and accepted by the world, vindicating the 911 cult minions once and for all...

Gee what happen to all that? hmmm i wonder... LOL
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Old 10th June 2009, 03:51 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So did these "people" who sent you samples (I am assuming they sent them to you and not Jones), did they give you,

(A) contact information (or were the packages sent anonymously)?
(B) Did they give you any detail as to where they collected the dust, how they collected, and how long ago?

And are you saying that in these independent samples you originally found the red/grey chips, but now you cannot?

Thanks

TAM
(A) yes (adress or email)
(B) yes : all useful details provided

I found one red/gray chip, the one i studied in details and presented some time ago on my website. I cannot find others (!?) , though i cannot exclude that some rare tiny red staff in my samples could be from red/gray chips ... .

I can only agree with other searchers that the red only chips are very fragile
As for the genuine red/grey ones i dont know...(didnt test that with the single one i had found and studied)...
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Old 10th June 2009, 04:05 PM   #306
T.A.M.
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Originally Posted by henryco View Post
(A) yes (adress or email)
(B) yes : all useful details provided

I found one red/gray chip, the one i studied in details and presented some time ago on my website. I cannot find others (!?) , though i cannot exclude that some rare tiny red staff in my samples could be from red/gray chips ... .

I can only agree with other searchers that the red only chips are very fragile
As for the genuine red/grey ones i dont know...(didnt test that with the single one i had found and studied)...
So you found ONE chip? in all of the different samples you had, you found ONE chip that was red/grey? That doesn't sound like Jones' stuff. He was finding them in all the samples, wasn't he?

All of your findings were based on one chip? So did you do an MEK wash? Once you did, it was game over for repeating anything I guess.

Sounds to me like you need to get some fresh samples. I am sure that there are many labs who analyzed the dust, who might donate some to you, if you ask.

So how did they know to send them to you themselves? Did you leave your name and address on this "Tract" you speak of? Can you clarify how you SEQUESTERED the samples in the first place?

Thanks.

TAM
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Old 11th June 2009, 03:46 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So you found ONE chip? in all of the different samples you had, you found ONE chip that was red/grey? That doesn't sound like Jones' stuff. He was finding them in all the samples, wasn't he?
All of your findings were based on one chip?
yes, but there can be a simple explanation. The first extraction of iron rich material with a magnet i did probably selected the most interesting material ... (microspheres and gray part of the chips very magnetic) . But i only used it to search for the microspheres. ..i thought i would just need to reextract later some more material to look for the chips...but i certainly lost the most interesting chips with this first extraction.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So did you do an MEK wash? Once you did, it was game over for repeating anything I guess.
no MEK wash.
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Sounds to me like you need to get some fresh samples.
exactly
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I am sure that there are many labs who analyzed the dust, who might donate some to you, if you ask.
not so sure!
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So how did they know to send them to you themselves? Did you leave your name and address on this "Tract" you speak of? Can you clarify how you SEQUESTERED the samples in the first place?
All searchers interested left their coordinates, to later be sent the samples. I also directly call for samples on my website.
I sequester the iron rich particles with a magnet

best

Fred

PS: anyone can do that: buy a 100 USD student microscope and a magnet.
select the interesting staff, put it in a kiln (just need to know
someone who is doing ceramics or pottery ), see if it generates iron microspheres...
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Old 11th June 2009, 04:06 AM   #308
T.A.M.
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Fred;

Given all of the other examinations of the WTC dust by other labs, why do you think there is no mention of these mysterious red/grey chips by any other lab? There is no mention of their existence, let alone what they might be.

Do you think (A) they intentionally ignored them, (B) they felt they were paint chips, and hence labeled them as such, or (C) there samples probably did not contain the chips.

Thanks

TAM
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Old 11th June 2009, 07:15 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by henryco View Post
yes, but there can be a simple explanation. The first extraction of iron rich material with a magnet i did probably selected the most interesting material ... (microspheres and gray part of the chips very magnetic) . But i only used it to search for the microspheres. ..i thought i would just need to reextract later some more material to look for the chips...but i certainly lost the most interesting chips with this first extraction.
the second more likely explanation is that my sample was falsified by people
who dont want me to find the red/gray chips in it: easy to do: extract the genuine red/gray chips of interest from a 911 sample and put in place many red only chips of the kind you can find on a 911 monument in NY (redpaint chips) and send it to me.

Fortunately there was at least one big red/gray chip remaining in the sample
probably a genuine one since it had all the properties mentionned by Harrit, Jones and co, as far as i could check , but unfortunately i could not perform the ignition test to have the complete evidence that it was highly energetic.

I need new samples!
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Old 11th June 2009, 10:56 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Platypus View Post
I thought this paper was the 'smoking gun', the thing that was going to finally prove the 'inside job', it was going to be a huge deal, embraced by the scientific community, blown up all over the media and accepted by the world, vindicating the 911 cult minions once and for all...

Gee what happen to all that? hmmm i wonder... LOL


Nice post by Volatile 6-11-09

Great bit on the New Scientist today about just how reputable and rigorous Bentham are:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...d-journal.html

"Davis teamed up with Kent Anderson, a member of the publishing team at The New England Journal of Medicine, to put Bentham's editorial standards to the test. The pair turned to SCIgen, a program that generates nonsensical computer science papers, and submitted the resulting paper to The Open Information Science Journal, published by Bentham."

Guess what happened next...
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Old 11th June 2009, 12:52 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Fred;

Given all of the other examinations of the WTC dust by other labs, why do you think there is no mention of these mysterious red/grey chips by any other lab? There is no mention of their existence, let alone what they might be.

Do you think (A) they intentionally ignored them, (B) they felt they were paint chips, and hence labeled them as such, or (C) there samples probably did not contain the chips.

Thanks

TAM
B is a likely scenario: in order to conclude that these are not just redpaint chips you need further analysis to find evidence for elemental Al and you need to test them at ignition. You would do these tests only if you a priori suspect thermite ... but probably these lab were not ready to even imagine such a possibility.

I also believe in D: labs didnt find them.
Indeed, the labs did not concentrate on the iron rich part of the dust. If you dont do so you can easily miss the particles of interest.
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Old 12th June 2009, 04:04 AM   #312
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I wonder if these chips were not simply red paint on a metallic or grey primer. The primer could be of tougher texture, and would have been less exposed to the elements etc... so might have been what made the red/grey chips resilient, but the red chips you have found (perhaps the red paint with no primer attached) are very fragile.

I also find it hard to believe, given the very thorough analysis I have read by a number of these labs, that they would miss these chips. Paint (lead and nolead) are mentioned in these analysis as a major component of the dust, yet Jones paper, he does not mention finding paint at all...does that not seem odd???

Fred. Next time you get samples, look for paint as well as thermite, and see what you come up with.

TAM
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Old 12th June 2009, 04:47 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I wonder if these chips were not simply red paint on a metallic or grey primer. The primer could be of tougher texture, and would have been less exposed to the elements etc... so might have been what made the red/grey chips resilient, but the red chips you have found (perhaps the red paint with no primer attached) are very fragile.

I also find it hard to believe, given the very thorough analysis I have read by a number of these labs, that they would miss these chips. Paint (lead and nolead) are mentioned in these analysis as a major component of the dust, yet Jones paper, he does not mention finding paint at all...does that not seem odd???
Fred. Next time you get samples, look for paint as well as thermite, and see what you come up with.

TAM
It may be of little relevence but here goes.

I fabricated and formed many steel objects/structures in the early 80's. Mainly decorative wrought iron works, steel gates, steel fencing, security grills etc as well as manufacturing larger 'i' beam and 'girder' frames for larger structures.

The metal protection and cosmetics was always completed using paints.

The finished product and bare material was initially coated in what we called 'Red Lead' or 'Red oxide' - Red Paint. To us this was effectively to prevent rust. Once dried we would then apply a grey primer, somtimes a few coats. This would mostly be done using a brush, however larger pieces where sometimes sprayed. No technical or scientific values involved in how thick, just get it on.

The customer would then determine the final colour if a gate or railing. The 'i' beams or 'girders' where painted red with a differnt paint.

Not sure if that helps at all.
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Old 12th June 2009, 05:45 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post

I also find it hard to believe, given the very thorough analysis I have read by a number of these labs, that they would miss these chips. Paint (lead and nolead) are mentioned in these analysis as a major component of the dust, yet Jones paper, he does not mention finding paint at all...does that not seem odd???

Fred. Next time you get samples, look for paint as well as thermite, and see what you come up with.

TAM
OK , apart from the USGS do you have links where i could read the other labs results
regarding the dust analysis?
thanks

F
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Old 12th June 2009, 11:41 AM   #315
T.A.M.
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http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1241534
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1240917
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1031/pd...5_1031_508.pdf (PDF)
http://journals.cambridge.org/action...ine&aid=239769

For starters. I am sure a good search with google scholar will help more.

Can't guarantee you can get all of them without a subscription, but I know a couple of them are free.

TAM
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Old 12th June 2009, 01:22 PM   #316
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Can someone clarify if the steel structural columns, beams, trusses etc that went in to make up the WTC where infact coated with a protective rust resiliant paint, either prior to instalation or once in situ.

Can someone also clarify whether or not a grey primer was also used to coat these steel structural elements of WTC.

If a grey layer of primer wasnt present on construction then the samples the mad prof produced cant have come from said steel structure.

I would also pose the question as to why any grey 'primer' would have been used at all. Having never set foot inside WTC i am not sure if any steel structure was actually visible, unless for architectural cosmetics. If not, then i would ask why the need for primer? Primer is a key for another layer of paint. Red lead or red oxide would be used to coat the bare material as a protective barrier against corrosion and applied directly to the steel. Primer would only be added ontop of red lead/oxide if a third 'cosmetic' colored paint was required.

Essentially, i see no reason why any steel members would need anything other than a red lead/oxide coating if hidden from view.

Please forgive my ignorance if this is of no relevence or if i have missed something. I am just a simple....................
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Old 16th June 2009, 07:24 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1241534
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1240917
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1031/pd...5_1031_508.pdf (PDF)
http://journals.cambridge.org/action...ine&aid=239769

For starters. I am sure a good search with google scholar will help more.

Can't guarantee you can get all of them without a subscription, but I know a couple of them are free.

TAM
Thanks but i noticed no new very meaningful info for me...

I have analyzed the false red only chips at the electronic microscope: these contain Aluminum, Iron, oxygen and carbon in quite the same proportions as the true red/gray chips and these are very numerous in my samples while the red/gray one shoud be numerous according the article ! mine never produce molten iron when heated even up to 900C! they are not two sided and the aspect is very different (not homogeous) from the one of the red part in the articles photos.

So my conviction is that my samples were falsified: the material of interest was removed and a kind of paint that can mimic efficiently the red/gray chips was put in place (many such chips) but the real ones were not removed with 100% efficiency since i was able to find at least a single one a few monthes ago.

I believe the control, manipulation and substitution must take place at the level of our post offices here in France. I noticed very suspect and systematic abnormal delays at my own post office.

So if you have new samples to send to me, you should pass them to someone that will give them to me directly ... (no email please ! )

I dont know if the falsification is from the criminals friends or some of the truthers who dont want me to be associated with this research...

Fred H-C
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Old 16th June 2009, 12:24 PM   #318
T.A.M.
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Originally Posted by henryco View Post
Thanks but i noticed no new very meaningful info for me...

I have analyzed the false red only chips at the electronic microscope: these contain Aluminum, Iron, oxygen and carbon in quite the same proportions as the true red/gray chips and these are very numerous in my samples while the red/gray one shoud be numerous according the article ! mine never produce molten iron when heated even up to 900C! they are not two sided and the aspect is very different (not homogeous) from the one of the red part in the articles photos.

So my conviction is that my samples were falsified: the material of interest was removed and a kind of paint that can mimic efficiently the red/gray chips was put in place (many such chips) but the real ones were not removed with 100% efficiency since i was able to find at least a single one a few monthes ago.

I believe the control, manipulation and substitution must take place at the level of our post offices here in France. I noticed very suspect and systematic abnormal delays at my own post office.

So if you have new samples to send to me, you should pass them to someone that will give them to me directly ... (no email please ! )

I dont know if the falsification is from the criminals friends or some of the truthers who dont want me to be associated with this research...

Fred H-C
Fred;

Up until now your explanations and dialogue have seemed reasonable, and rational. Now, however, I think things are turning.

Are you suggesting that your samples had an "abundance" of the chips that Jones discusses, the alleged "Thermite" chips, but that someone purposely took your mail, opened it, removed these chips, and replaced them with "red only" chips that would not react like the original chips?

If this is your reasoning, then I am afraid I will have to consider your position, and paranoia on par with Jones et al, and unless something changes, the dialog ends here.

TAM
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Old 17th June 2009, 04:23 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Fred;

Up until now your explanations and dialogue have seemed reasonable, and rational. Now, however, I think things are turning.

Are you suggesting that your samples had an "abundance" of the chips that Jones discusses, the alleged "Thermite" chips, but that someone purposely took your mail, opened it, removed these chips, and replaced them with "red only" chips that would not react like the original chips?

If this is your reasoning, then I am afraid I will have to consider your position, and paranoia on par with Jones et al, and unless something changes, the dialog ends here.

TAM
T.A.M
My samples are full of chips which have nothing to do with the chips described in the articles. These are almost perfect doubles:
1) same appearance on one face : same red color!
2) same range of sizes
3) same composition: Carbon, oxygen, Iron, Aluminum, Silicium in the same proportion

almost because

1) Dont produce molten iron even when heated to more than 900C
2) Have the same chemical composition after being heated to more than 900C
3) Not double sided: red /red rather than red/shiny grey

According to the articles the red/grey chips should be numerous while in my articles the
red/red chips are more numerous...so i'm afraid there are only two possible ways for understanding this:

1) The red-gray chips were completely invented or the th truthers were provided with
fake samples to deceive them
2) My red-red chips were added and the genuine red/gray ones removed...

I dont know which way to understand these facts is the most paranoiac one...probably you know better than me.

To be Honest i should also follow a little bit the first paranoia way:

If 911 was an inside job, its not a problem to make the common citizen believe that Al Qaeda did it. If i were one of the perpetrators i could even travel and give conferences in the USA and in Europe with wonderful powerpoints (the architectes and ingeniers one for instance) and movies (for instance the italian movie: Zero) showing that 911 was an inside job, just for fun and to make money... indeed people are totally under control through the control of the medias. The important thing if you do that is to be sure that there are enough (not so many) absurd or silly claims in your presentation so that any honest expert in the concerned fields can explain why your are just an idiot conspirationist....and you can be sure the subject will remain as exotic as the UFOs, for long...

Much more problematic is to also deceive intelligence agencies from other countries : impossible ! these have their experts and the collapse of WTC7 is much more than sufficient to convince them that there is something wrong with the official story. But another kind of deception can take place which goal would be to hide the exact type of secret technology that was used to bring down the towers. Nanothermite or another technology based on the understanding kept secret for years by militaries of the new physics behind cold fusion for example?

Many features, in particular pure iron spheroids which crackled surfaces cooled down very rapidly are also commonly seen in experiments involving very powerful electric discharges ( The new physics that occurs there is the same as behind the historical electrolysis experiment that have shown extra production of heat: in these micro-discharges are also involved, in the palladium porous structure). These discharges produce what is often called "strange radiations": nobody (at least among searchers working in public labs today) understands this physics and these objects. These were discovered by many searchers independently all over the world and given different names (ectons, micro lighting-balls, Electrum Validum...and of course strange radiations) : much bigger ones are also naturally produced by much more powerful electric discharges in the atmosphere: lighting balls.
Some time ago i believed powerful discharges was used at the WTC using capacitors. The discharges may have been triggered by the piezoelectric effect: as you can see in the USGS data: the girder coatings have Titanium but also Baryum and strontium and i think its very hard to understand the high levels of baryum and strontium (quite the same) in these coatings.
As you know high capacitors commonly use baryum titanate often mixed with strontium titanate. My understanding for a long time was that the weakening and superficial melting of the column was obtained thanks to these discharges and the very large fluxes of the strange radiations they produced heating them very efficiently. But i progressively gave up the idea because of the discoveries of nanothermite red/gray chips.
The problem is now that i cant find them so i can suspect again that nanothermite was completely invented to hide the other technology which secret is believed crucial (as you probably know it was demonstrated by a Russian team that the half life of Uranium radionucleides is modified in presence of the strange radiations so you can imagine why it is kept secret!).

Nanothermite or something else?:
For anybody in the USA reading my post and whishing to understand better what happened on 911, it's very important to realize that checking the red/gray chips hypothesis is something anybody can do at home: its straightforward!

If you personally know a new_Yorker who still has WTC dust contact him (independently, discretely, no email , no phone). Then you just need a small magnet , a needle, a 50 dollars microscope and a kiln (or know someone who is doing pottery or ceramics). Find the red/gray chip yourself, heat it yourself in your kiln, check yourself the appearance of the metallic microspheres at less than 500C...and help me do the same.
This is crucial to help me choose between my two paranoias !!

best

Fred






De : Frdric Henry-Couannier <fhenryco@yahoo.fr>
: Gregg Roberts <groberts@ae911truth.org>; Frank Legge <flegge@iinet.net.au>
Cc : harrit@fys.ku.dk; Steven <hardevidence@gmail.com>; Keogh Justin <justin.keogh@gmail.com>; Larsen Brad <brlbu@sisna.com>; Ryan Kevin <kncryan@msn.com>; A Carson <azcarson@gmail.com>; Shane Geiger <shane.geiger@gmail.com>
Envoy le : Mercredi, 17 Juin 2009, 11h10mn 59s
Objet : Re : Re : Problem !

The most recent sample i received with nothing but red-only chips (or may be red/orange as Keven says) inside was from Steve White (collected in a loft at 18 Warren street).

I'm wondering how many among you did themselves the crucial ignition test and have noticed themselves the appearance of iron microspheres...please clarify

Best

F
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Old 17th June 2009, 06:40 AM   #320
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Do you accuse the main French Post Company to have altered the samples you received?
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