ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Laclede primer , nanothermite , Niels Harrit , paint chips , tnemec , wtc

Reply
Old 16th August 2011, 04:12 AM   #161
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
As for grey layers - this is again an issue for Sunstealer. We only know from XDES that they contain iron, oxygen and a little of carbon.

But let say we are able to prove somehow that these grey layers were parts of WTC floor joist oxidized steel (painted by red primer by Laclede company). We know all these truther folks: they would very soon come with a new bizzare hypothesis that at least some of these joists were in fact "painted" with nanot...t" and red chips studied by Harrit were indeed not ordinary paint but highly explosive super duper hyperpaint particles) "This part of the inside job/CD preparation was especially tricky," they would say, "since nanothermite looked like ordinary red primer." As usually, they would not care about such "details" like how these joists hidden between floors and ceilings were massively painted with nanorhermite. But perhaps, I am making truthers even more crazy than they usually are in this case)

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 16th August 2011 at 04:19 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 04:30 AM   #162
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,120
Let's not worry about what truthers will say or think. Let's just write a very solid, convincing paper
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 07:45 AM   #163
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
I still wonder why Harrit et al. published XEDS spectra in such comparatively low resolution since this team apparently had better, original spectra (e.g. Fig. 5, Harrit's whitepaper). I understand why Harrit expanded a spectrum of chip (a) in his explanation WHY THE RED/GRAY CHIPS ARE NOT PRIMER PAINT: there was probably the lowest content of chromium in the chip (no visible bump on the baseline at 5.4 KeV), and chromium was unwanted element in this fig, since it was present in the Tnemec paint (zinc chromate). Why to magnify this stuff? But as regards the original Bentham paper, spectra are not well resolved (peaks of metals and other elements are too little because of huge peaks of carbon).

I will anyway try to find if expanded XEDS spectra of chips (b) to (d) can be available, e.g. in some lecture of Jones or Harrit. Remember the chip (e) and Sunstealer!

Anyway all this requires a quite good connection and my connection to JREF was again lost for almost 1 hour. Perhaps some massive attack of truthers? Or maybe even JREF inside job?

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 16th August 2011 at 08:45 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 07:52 AM   #164
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,120
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
...Anyway all this requires a quite good connection and my connection to JREF was again lost for almost 1 hour. Perhaps some massive attack of truthers? Or maybe even JREF inside job?
This seems to happen every afternoon (in Europe).
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 10:00 AM   #165
Marokkaan
Graduate Poster
 
Marokkaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Ivan,

some more ideas what we can do:

The gray layer has so far received no attention in this thread, and very little attention by Harrit e.al.
If we find more information on what the LaClede paint was painted on (type of steel), then maybe we can predict what we'd expect to find, and compare with the data by Harrit, however little that is.

I think we have by now collected enough observations and ideas for a first draft or summary of a "paper". Well, blog post. If I find the time and consentration...


Hey, have any of you guys noticed that our resident truthers (tmd, Marokaan, RedIbis...) and 9/11-agnostics (femr2, ...) are staying out of this thread? Sole exception is Bill Smith, who carefully avoids adressing the evidence we are collecting
Believe me i support the attention at the red/gray chips.

So i can not wait until you guys showing a peer reviewed article to refute the findings of harrit et al
Marokkaan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 11:15 AM   #166
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,120
Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
Believe me i support the attention at the red/gray chips.

So i can not wait until you guys showing a peer reviewed article to refute the findings of harrit et al
Why do you expect a peer reviewed article? Harrit's paper wasn't peer reviewed.


Oh - I think I know: You do believe it was peer reviewed, don't you? Well, buddy, you were lied to, and you are believing a lie then.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 12:38 PM   #167
Marokkaan
Graduate Poster
 
Marokkaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Why do you expect a peer reviewed article? Harrit's paper wasn't peer reviewed.


Oh - I think I know: You do believe it was peer reviewed, don't you? Well, buddy, you were lied to, and you are believing a lie then.
Well show me you can make a peer reviewed article, and embarrass those truthers
Marokkaan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 09:54 PM   #168
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
So, basically, we can not expect any Sr signal in any other XEDS spectra of red chips, since there is always a "pathological overlap" of Sr and Si signal, as Almond pointed out in his outstanding contribution #156.

But we can still look for the XEDS spectra containing better visible Cr signal at 5.4 KeV. Remembering chip (e) and Sunstealer, I have just looked at the same Steven Jones' lecture, in which Sunstealer found his proof that chip (e) was a particle of Tnemec primer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPSSyDnQkR0#at=120.

Here, at the time 4:22, we can see an XEDS spectrum of some red chip (surface not cleaned) measured by a truther Mark Basile. The chromium peak is clearly visible there. There are, however, also other elements detected in the spectrum: Ca, K, S, Na, Ti and even Cu. All these elements (including chromium) could be present in the accidental contaminants on the uncleaned surface, so this is probably not the good proof of chromium as a component of the chip. But even so, it seems that Mark Basile could provide us with some more interesting spectra.

Here is a Mark Basile lecture "911 Dust Analysis Raises Questions‬" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...hXrmMRPc#at=17. At the time 39:30, we can see another XEDS spectrum of some red-grey chip (here freshly broken one). Chromium peak was again marked there (together with some very common elements like Ca, Na and S). M. Basile even calculated the concentration of all elements somehow and found that there was about 0.18 wt% of chromium and about 2 wt% of iron. (Btw, there was about 73 wt% of carbon found in this particular chip, which, by itself, seems to deconstruct a possibility that this chip could be any thermite, as was noted by leftysergeant). Pehaps this provides us with an another partial info on chromium presence, but further XEDS spectra of red(-grey) chips are still highly needed...

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 16th August 2011 at 10:16 PM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 11:46 PM   #169
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,120
Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
Well show me you can make a peer reviewed article, and embarrass those truthers
You replied, but forgot to answer the question: Why?
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2011, 11:49 PM   #170
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,120
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
...I have just looked at the same Steven Jones' lecture, in which Sunstealer found his proof that chip (e) was a particle of Tnemec primer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPSSyDnQkR0#at=120.

Here, at the time 4:22, we can see an XEDS spectrum of some red chip (surface not cleaned) measured by a truther Mark Basile. ...

Here is a Mark Basile lecture "911 Dust Analysis Raises Questions‬" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...hXrmMRPc#at=17. At the time 39:30, we can see another XEDS spectrum of some red-grey chip ...
Ivan, you're amazing

I wonder if these guys ever put those presentations (I mean the powerpoints, PDFs or whatever format for written text and images they like) out on the internet, and nut just low-fi youtubes of them.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 02:00 AM   #171
Marokkaan
Graduate Poster
 
Marokkaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You replied, but forgot to answer the question: Why?
You dont know even why? Even when i told you the reason?
Marokkaan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 02:39 AM   #172
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Why do you expect a peer reviewed article? Harrit's paper wasn't peer reviewed.


Oh - I think I know: You do believe it was peer reviewed, don't you? Well, buddy, you were lied to, and you are believing a lie then.
You mentioned the grey layer. Can you list any known characteristics of the material and any observationa you have about it ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 02:51 AM   #173
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
As for grey layers - this is again an issue for Sunstealer. We only know from XDES that they contain iron, oxygen and a little of carbon.

But let say we are able to prove somehow that these grey layers were parts of WTC floor joist oxidized steel (painted by red primer by Laclede company). We know all these truther folks: they would very soon come with a new bizzare hypothesis that at least some of these joists were in fact "painted" with nanot...t" and red chips studied by Harrit were indeed not ordinary paint but highly explosive super duper hyperpaint particles) "This part of the inside job/CD preparation was especially tricky," they would say, "since nanothermite looked like ordinary red primer." As usually, they would not care about such "details" like how these joists hidden between floors and ceilings were massively painted with nanorhermite. But perhaps, I am making truthers even more crazy than they usually are in this case)
I did actually do some investigation into the gray layer in chips a-d. I'm leaning towards oxidised steel due to the characteristic shape of the spectra in comparison to others, although it could be an micaceous iron oxide which is used as an undercoat. I'll try to find that later.

It's very telling that the truthers including Harrit et al ignore this layer. Hell even in their very own paper they show different gray layers that aren't of the same chemical make up. It's bizarre. (See Fig 31 and 33 in comparison with samples a-d)

The only source for steel that I can think of is from Henryco, the french truther. If you look at Henryco's EDX work you can see he's analysed some of the red gray chips. His chips had 3 layers - the red layer, the gray layer and a third layer which looks very crystalline and appears to be the parent material. Unfortunately his powerpoint presentation is poor. He marks the spots at which his analysis took place on the sample, but in the following slides the number for each spot is missing - it's cut off from each slide due to him not resizing the spectra graphs properly (top rhs). I asked him about this, but he didn't understand so there is no correlation between graphs and samples. He also didn't break his samples in half so there's likely to be contamination.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 02:56 AM   #174
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
I still wonder why Harrit et al. published XEDS spectra in such comparatively low resolution since this team apparently had better, original spectra (e.g. Fig. 5, Harrit's whitepaper). I understand why Harrit expanded a spectrum of chip (a) in his explanation WHY THE RED/GRAY CHIPS ARE NOT PRIMER PAINT: there was probably the lowest content of chromium in the chip (no visible bump on the baseline at 5.4 KeV), and chromium was unwanted element in this fig, since it was present in the Tnemec paint (zinc chromate). Why to magnify this stuff? But as regards the original Bentham paper, spectra are not well resolved (peaks of metals and other elements are too little because of huge peaks of carbon).
I suspect the low resolution was to save space so that they could cram in all the other crap like MEK, resistance, torch ignition "experiments". It really is a poorly focused paper.

Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
I will anyway try to find if expanded XEDS spectra of chips (b) to (d) can be available, e.g. in some lecture of Jones or Harrit. Remember the chip (e) and Sunstealer!
Yes I came via that through shear luck. I think it was Bill Smith that posted that vid. Ironic eh?

I admire you for being able to watch these videos to look out for clues. I can't do it - the stupid hurts too much.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 03:23 AM   #175
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
So, basically, we can not expect any Sr signal in any other XEDS spectra of red chips, since there is always a "pathological overlap" of Sr and Si signal, as Almond pointed out in his outstanding contribution #156.
Yes I'll have to have a think about that post. I'm surprised that Sr doesn't appear at the lower KeV. I'm startled at how well the Monte Carlo simulation fits from Al down to Sr. Great work.

Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Here, at the time 4:22, we can see an XEDS spectrum of some red chip (surface not cleaned) measured by a truther Mark Basile. The chromium peak is clearly visible there. There are, however, also other elements detected in the spectrum: Ca, K, S, Na, Ti and even Cu. All these elements (including chromium) could be present in the accidental contaminants on the uncleaned surface, so this is probably not the good proof of chromium as a component of the chip. But even so, it seems that Mark Basile could provide us with some more interesting spectra.

Here is a Mark Basile lecture "911 Dust Analysis Raises Questions‬" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...hXrmMRPc#at=17. At the time 39:30, we can see another XEDS spectrum of some red-grey chip (here freshly broken one). Chromium peak was again marked there (together with some very common elements like Ca, Na and S). M. Basile even calculated the concentration of all elements somehow and found that there was about 0.18 wt% of chromium and about 2 wt% of iron. (Btw, there was about 73 wt% of carbon found in this particular chip, which, by itself, seems to deconstruct a possibility that this chip could be any thermite, as was noted by leftysergeant). Pehaps this provides us with an another partial info on chromium presence, but further XEDS spectra of red(-grey) chips are still highly needed...
Omg he thinks this is thermite? Roflmao. Here's the slide.





Words just fail me, I mean they really do - and truthers swallow this utter, utter crap? He's got a quantitative analysis from EDX (and we have to be a little careful with that) which shows there is next to no possible reactive material in the sample yet still believes it's nanothermite.

Welcome to the worlds most inefficient nanothermite! /snigger.

Great work Ivan, brilliant - proving truthers wrong with their own data is fantastic. I'm gob-smacked at their stupidity, really am. Amazing. /shakes head.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 03:25 AM   #176
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You replied, but forgot to answer the question: Why?
I wouldn't bother engaging the truthers in this thread, the material in it is way, way over their heads. There is nothing they can contribute. I'm far more interested in the actual data.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 03:46 AM   #177
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
I did actually do some investigation into the gray layer in chips a-d. I'm leaning towards oxidised steel due to the characteristic shape of the spectra in comparison to others, although it could be an micaceous iron oxide which is used as an undercoat. I'll try to find that later.

It's very telling that the truthers including Harrit et al ignore this layer. Hell even in their very own paper they show different gray layers that aren't of the same chemical make up. It's bizarre. (See Fig 31 and 33 in comparison with samples a-d)

The only source for steel that I can think of is from Henryco, the french truther. If you look at Henryco's EDX work you can see he's analysed some of the red gray chips. His chips had 3 layers - the red layer, the gray layer and a third layer which looks very crystalline and appears to be the parent material. Unfortunately his powerpoint presentation is poor. He marks the spots at which his analysis took place on the sample, but in the following slides the number for each spot is missing - it's cut off from each slide due to him not resizing the spectra graphs properly (top rhs). I asked him about this, but he didn't understand so there is no correlation between graphs and samples. He also didn't break his samples in half so there's likely to be contamination.
I remember Jones saying that the grey material was very tough. He seemed to stress that point but said no more about it. And I seem to remember somebody (maybe Jones at another point) speculating that the grey material might have been part of some kind of casing.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 03:50 AM   #178
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,120
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
I did actually do some investigation into the gray layer in chips a-d. I'm leaning towards oxidised steel due to the characteristic shape of the spectra in comparison to others, although it could be an micaceous iron oxide which is used as an undercoat. I'll try to find that later.
...
I have some links in my blog:
http://oystein-debate.blogspot.com/2...dal-paper.html
Here's what you wrote in april 2009 on the grey layer: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...13#post4589113

A grey layer of anti-corrosive primer under a red layer of primer paint of course poses a problem for the LaClede joist theory: According to specs, there should only be a red layer, and under it only steel.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 04:42 AM   #179
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I have some links in my blog:
http://oystein-debate.blogspot.com/2...dal-paper.html
Here's what you wrote in april 2009 on the grey layer: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...13#post4589113

A grey layer of anti-corrosive primer under a red layer of primer paint of course poses a problem for the LaClede joist theory: According to specs, there should only be a red layer, and under it only steel.
I revised my position a bit later on that with regard to MIO, I think I may have jumped the gun. It seemed to fit the bill very well at the time and I was pretty damn sure of it. However, on further examination I later thought it was more likely to be oxidised steel. Here is the comparison with the EDX spectra from the work on corroded steel.



I've also, in recent days been looking at iron oxide and steel spectra

http://www.springerimages.com/Images...0-011-0290-3-4
http://www.springerimages.com/Images...9-010-9633-1-4
http://met-tech.com/short-term-overh...ater-tube.html
http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/htm.../43003711.html
http://www.springerimages.com/Images...0-011-0290-3-5
http://www.cleancontrolling.de/popup...3&nr=2&lang=en
http://www.cleancontrolling.de/popup...0&nr=2&lang=en
http://www.cleancontrolling.de/popup...9&nr=2&lang=en
http://www.cleancontrolling.de/popup...2&nr=2&lang=en


And a picture of deposited iron oxide - photo 10.
http://geraldjeka.synthasite.com/fai...ory-images.php

There is a characteristic "bremsstrahlung" between 1 and 6 KeV for all of these that match with the Harrit et al paper although Cr, Ni and Mn will have peaks for stainless steel and other contaminants due to corrosion in the above.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 04:47 AM   #180
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I remember Jones saying that the grey material was very tough. He seemed to stress that point but said no more about it. And I seem to remember somebody (maybe Jones at another point) speculating that the grey material might have been part of some kind of casing.
The word "tough" has a very specific meaning in materials science.When you look at the SEM photos of the gray layer it can't be "tough". Infact it's obvious it's a brittle material, the fractures ans the fracture surface indicate that - the exact opposite of toughness. Again it shows that Jones doesn't know what he's talking about.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 05:08 AM   #181
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
The word "tough" has a very specific meaning in materials science.When you look at the SEM photos of the gray layer it can't be "tough". Infact it's obvious it's a brittle material, the fractures ans the fracture surface indicate that - the exact opposite of toughness. Again it shows that Jones doesn't know what he's talking about.
Have any flecks of the red material been found without the grey layer ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 06:26 AM   #182
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Thanks, Sunstealer and Oystein, for your appreciation of my googling)

Back to the binder (which is mostly some organic polymer - carbon stuff -, more specifically some epoxide resin in the case of Laclede primer):

In the Mark Basile data on a red-grey chip #13 (btw, he called it “Lucky Thirteen” in the lecture), I have found the very first attempt to determine the concentrations of elements present in the red chips. I am aware that these numbers could be only approximate and peaks heights depend on many factors, but still: the content of carbon looks to be enormous and the content of iron and aluminum is ridiculously low for any thermite.

But the same should be valid even for chips (a) to (d) in the Bentham paper, since their XEDS spectra (peaks of the main elements like C, O, Fe, Al and Si) are qualitatively similar to the “Lucky Thirteen” spectrum: in all of the spectra, carbon strongly prevails as a chemical element. So even Harrit's beloved chips (a) to (d) cannot be particles of thermite from this point of view. In the thermite, reacting particles must be in an intimate contact and cannot be separated by a huge amount of a non-reacting binder. Such a high content of the organic binder is very typical just for paints (or some glues, btw).

Almond, could you please perform another simulation of XEDS spectra of Laclede primer, now considering also carbon and oxygen (I still suppose that you omitted oxygen in the first simulation, didn't you?)?

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 17th August 2011 at 07:55 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 06:50 AM   #183
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Have any flecks of the red material been found without the grey layer ?
I am not sure for Bentham paper, but HenryCo wrote in his analysis http://www.darksideofgravity.com/marseille_gb.pdf that both red-grey chips and "redred" chips (red on both sides) were found. There is also a photo of the red layer just separating from the grey layer with the comment: "Photo from an independent searcher showing the red layer from a red/gray chip separating from the gray layer: possible origin of red chips." I think all this is consistent with the hypothesis of the primer painted on some steel (slightly corroded in the course of time), since we can not expect that paint (inevitably brittle after those many years) could stick on the steel forever, namely during such cataclysmic events like collapses of the Towers

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 17th August 2011 at 07:05 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 07:07 AM   #184
Marokkaan
Graduate Poster
 
Marokkaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,083
I hope the experts here will search the right primer paint that can cause the same effect like, these videoclips!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eLuyOqWER4

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pFb...layer_embedded
Marokkaan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 07:16 AM   #185
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
I hope the experts here will search the right primer paint that can cause the same effect like, these videoclips!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eLuyOqWER4

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pFb...layer_embedded
This is what we plan, Marokkaan: to perform some tests on the thermal behaviour of the Laclede primer paint. Concerning this video, it does not prove anything thermitic, since experiment was not carried out under argon (or under nitrogen or vacuum). Since even Mark Basile (or whoever this experimenter was) probably cannot survive in the argon (or any other inert atmosphere), I guess that this ignition experiment was performed in the ordinary air (with a lot of oxygen in it)

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 17th August 2011 at 07:46 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 08:29 AM   #186
Marokkaan
Graduate Poster
 
Marokkaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
This is what we plan, Marokkaan: to perform some tests on the thermal behaviour of the Laclede primer paint. Concerning this video, it does not prove anything thermitic, since experiment was not carried out under argon (or under nitrogen or vacuum). Since even Mark Basile (or whoever this experimenter was) probably cannot survive in the argon (or any other inert atmosphere), I guess that this ignition experiment was performed in the ordinary air (with a lot of oxygen in it)
Great, i hope soon you have some results, good luck.
Marokkaan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 08:39 AM   #187
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Given that this video is said to be the ignition of a thermitic sample from the WTC dust. would this be an example of purely incendiary nanothermite or the explosive variety ? It seems to swell and give off some gas when it ignites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pFb...layer_embedded
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 17th August 2011 at 08:41 AM.
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 09:57 AM   #188
The Almond
Graduate Poster
 
The Almond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,015
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Almond, could you please perform another simulation of XEDS spectra of Laclede primer, now considering also carbon and oxygen (I still suppose that you omitted oxygen in the first simulation, didn't you?)?
Ok, so in the first simulation, I did NOT exclude O from the analysis. Cr L peaks and the O K peak overlap almost perfectly. That big honking peak around 500 eV is the combination of Cr L and O K. As for simulating the system with carbon, I am hesitant to do so for the following reasons:

1) O and C are notoriously hard to simulate correctly. When I compare my monte carlo simulations to actual experiments, I can get most elements spot on (relative error ~ 5%), but even under ideal conditions, C and O tend to have relative errors on the order of 50% to 100%. The short, non-technical reason for these errors is that the fundamental X-ray physics at low energies is not very well known or understood.

2) Without representing the actual materials involved, the simulation isn't even a good guess. Harrit et al are using particles affixed to carbon stubs in an instrument with presumably high carbon contamination. So some of the carbon signal is actually coming from inside the instrument, and has nothing to do with the sample at all. Other parts of it might be coming from the carbon tape around the particles. To simulate the experiment accurately, we would need to know the precise operating conditions and baseline carbon contamination of the instrument we're using to measure it.

3) Pigments in epoxy represent a very complicated problem for electron probe analysis. While we might think of the two materials as intimately mixed at the macro scale, the truth is that, on the scale of single microns, you will have particles of heavier elements (pigments) in a binder of light elements (presumably, C, O, S, Cl, etc). Again, the non-technical reason this is complicated is that you have too many variables to solve for and not enough equations to do it.

That being said, I was looking at the spectrum of "suspected thermite" that Sunstealer posted, and I noticed the tail on the Si peak. It's very subtle, but if your job is to look at EDX spectra all day, you start to notice these things. I think these simulations might help our discussion:


What I've done here is simulate 3 imaginary compounds. The first is pure silicon (red line), the second is 90% Si with 10% Sr (green line), and the third is 80% Si and 20% Sr (blue line). Pay special attention to the shape of the peak between 1800 eV and 1900 eV. Do you notice the tailing? The effect of Sr is to increase the length of the tail on the Si peak. Even 20% Sr does not show up as a unique peak, but as this long tail. I think I see the same effect in Sunstealer's post of the Red/Grey layer #13.
__________________
"Perfection, even in stupidity, is difficult to achieve without a conscious effort."--pomeroo, JREF Forum Member

Last edited by The Almond; 17th August 2011 at 09:59 AM.
The Almond is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 01:36 PM   #189
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,120
Almond, Ivan, Sunstealer: When I opened this thread, I did not even hope to get such productive results after only 5 pages!

Thanks a lot!
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 01:44 PM   #190
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,303
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Almond, Ivan, Sunstealer: When I opened this thread, I did not even hope to get such productive results after only 5 pages!

Thanks a lot!
I agree. Although this is way over my head, I'm loving sucking up a perfect example of "E" in JREF.



(I think I'm spending just as much time looking **** up as reading this thread )
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 02:11 PM   #191
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by The Almond View Post
What I've done here is simulate 3 imaginary compounds. The first is pure silicon (red line), the second is 90% Si with 10% Sr (green line), and the third is 80% Si and 20% Sr (blue line). Pay special attention to the shape of the peak between 1800 eV and 1900 eV. Do you notice the tailing? The effect of Sr is to increase the length of the tail on the Si peak. Even 20% Sr does not show up as a unique peak, but as this long tail. I think I see the same effect in Sunstealer's post of the Red/Grey layer #13.
Quite surprised and interested by that, I would have expected atleast some indication of a double peak - this is a fine demonstration as to the limitations and subtleties of EDX. I do see the tail on the Si peak for chip #13 in the slide above. Curiouser and curiouser.

Excellent work The Almond.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2011, 06:11 PM   #192
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
15 seconds into this Jones vid you can see a EDX spectrum of some steel they melted with an oxyacetylene torch. And at 5.10 he seems to say that this steel sample was from WTC and was from a memorial. It's identical to the spectra in samples a-d for the gray layer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClmbPpptV54

Last edited by Sunstealer; 17th August 2011 at 06:13 PM.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 12:01 AM   #193
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Marokkaan View Post
Great, i hope soon you have some results, good luck.
Thanks, Marokkaan, for your fullhearted wish

Meanwhile… some hints for you.
Are you living in the Earth with its atmosphere rich in oxygen?

Have you ever done such a job like burning an old paint off the steel or other metal with a propane torch?
If yes, you might notice that some particles of the paint sparkle when exposed to the flame, frequently with some time delay. I guess that having microscopic eyes at these moments, you might notice burning of the particles accompanied with some smoke release – similar effects as observed for the Mark Basile red chip.

If you have an electric stove at your home, turn it on and heat it up to the temperatures ca 400 – 500 degrees of C (very deep red/purple color I guess, http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=140). (These are the temperatures at which the alleged nanothermite was ignited under air in the Bentham paper under discussion.) When you put particles of some organic matter on the stove (spices, flour, wood dust, etc.) they again quickly burn/sparkle with a release of some tiny smoke.

On the other hand, when performing the same “stove experiment”, let say, on the Moon (without any oxygen available), the same particles would be only heated up to the temperature of the stove and no sparkling/burning would be observed. But, when you put the particles of nanothermite (with a sufficiently low ignition temperature) on that stove, they would ignite even on the Moon.

(In summary: Do you understand our claim that any such experiment performed under air cannot prove thermite?)

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 18th August 2011 at 12:12 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 02:34 AM   #194
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Your contributions are extremely valuable, Almond)

So you included oxygen in your simulation… Why the peak at ca 0.5 KeV (the overlap of Cr and O signals) is labeled as Cr and not O? (Is there any reason/rule for it?)

So I understand now that it is not easy to determine carbon in such a mixture and at such conditions. Anyway, I would like to add here some basic info about (carbon-based) binder in the Laclede primer. I suppose that its declared content in the paint (71.5 wt%) applies to the dry paint. (It seems to me that there is no reason why this percentage should refer to the wet paint.) Let me do some (very approximate) calculations on its elemental composition.

The main component of epoxy resins is usually an oligomer of Bisphenol A (see Wikipedia, entries “Bisphenol A” and “Epoxy”). Wiki says that the polymerization degree of this oligomeric precursor is in the range from 0 (monomer) to 20 (oligomer with 20 repeating unit). I will take an average value of 10 repeating units for further considerations. Anyway, the elemental composition (wt% of elements) of the repeating Bisphenol A unit with a molecular formula C17H18O3 is:

C 76%, H 7%, O 17%

The common hardener (crosslinking agent) of epoxide resin is triethylene tetramine with a molecular formula C6H18N4. Its elemental composition is:

C 50%, H 12%, N 38%

Theoretically, one amine group of triethylene tetramine can react with one terminal epoxy group of the Bisphenol A oligomer (forming crosslinking site), but this is just a plain theory. For the sake of simplicity, let me suppose that one molecule of this hardener reacts with one molecule of the oligomer with 10 repeating units. Than, hardener adds 10 % of its molar mass to the composition of the forming crosslinked resin.

In this case, the overall sum of the weights of elements is C: 76 + 50/10 = 81 %; H 7 + 12/10 = 8.2 %; O: 17%; N: 38/10 = 3.8 %. The sum now is 110 %. After “normalization” to 100 % I get:

C 73.5 %, H 7.5 %, O 15.5 %, N 3.5%.

Ergh… some input values are so uncertain that all this is just some very rough guess, but still: we can suppose that the hardener does not change the molecular composition of the cured resin dramatically and there is about 70 wt% of carbon and 15 wt% of oxygen in that epoxy binder.

Now, let me put the Oystein's results on the pigment composition here:

O: 40.7%
Fe: 38.5%
Si: 8.9%
Al: 8.6%
Sr: 1,7%
Cr: 1.0%

Pigment constitutes ca 29 % of the dry paint and the weight ratio between the binder and pigment is 71/29 = 2.44. In this ratio, we should add the carbon and oxygen from the binder to the overall composition.
This means that carbon from the binder adds 70 x 2.44 = 171 % to the overall weight.
Oxygen adds another 15 x 2.44 = 37 %. Now, we got the total sum of weight per cent of elements under interest (detectable by XEDS) 100 + 171 + 37 = 308 %.

After “normalization” to 100 % I got this overall composition of the Laclede paint:

C 55 %
O (from the pigment) 13 %
O (from the binder) 12 %
Fe 12.5 %
Si 3 %
Al 2.8 %
Sr 0.5 %
Cr 0.3 %
(The total sum is 99.1 %, reasonable result when taking into account approximate percentage values)

It seems (among other things) that the strontium content in this paint is quite low and it would not be easy to determine it even if its L-peak does not interfere with the Si peak (?)

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 18th August 2011 at 02:52 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 02:49 AM   #195
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Almond: (judging from your new interesting simulation) since the ratio between Sr and Si is ca 1:10 in the Laclede paint, the tail visible in the XEDS spectrum of the "Lucky Thirteen" chip can be attributed to the Sr, is this right? But can it serve even as a some kind of proof? (Probably not, I fear:

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 18th August 2011 at 02:58 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 03:04 AM   #196
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Ivan,

some more ideas what we can do:

The gray layer has so far received no attention in this thread, and very little attention by Harrit e.al.
If we find more information on what the LaClede paint was painted on (type of steel), then maybe we can predict what we'd expect to find, and compare with the data by Harrit, however little that is.
I did a bit of research on this.

I had a look at the NIST report regarding truss materials - here are extracts relevant to Laclede Steel.

Quote:
NIST NCSTAR1-3

E1.1 Building Design and Steel Specifications

Building plans and material specifications from the construction era provided a starting point for the study. Thousands of pages of design documents were reviewed. Most valuable were the structural steel design drawings for the WTC towers provided by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. In addition, Laclede Steel Company, the fabricator of the floor trusses, provided construction-era documents that showed, amongst other information, that steels with higher strength than specified were used in the floor truss systems. Numerous other sources, including Yawata (now Nippon) Steel documents on perimeter column steel, provided essential insights into the steel fabrication and properties.



E.4 Mechanical Properties

The strength of the steel in the floor trusses was higher than called for in the original specifications. Many of the truss steels that were specified as low strength A 36 were supplied as high-strength, low-alloy steels with much higher strengths. Laclede Steel Company’s substitution of 50 ksi yield strength steel for A 36 in the lower chord of the trusses is expected to have provided significantly improved performance at high temperature.


E.5 Physical Properties

Floor truss rods and chords, manufactured by Laclede Steel Co., met chemistry specifications for ASTM A 242. Contemporaneous construction documents indicated that Laclede Steel Co. routinely upgraded A 36 components to A 242 steel.

A majority of the other structural components (floor truss seats, diagonal bracing straps, gusset plates, core channels, etc.) met chemistry specifications for ASTM A 36 grade steel, which was the default steel when strengths were not specified on the design drawings.

Here are rough chemical compositions for relevant steels.

ASTM A242

0.15C 1.00Mn 0.15P 0.05S 0.20Cu

ASTM A36

0.29C 0.6-0.9Mn 0.04P 0.05S 0.40Si (Can have Max 0.2Cu too).

Further detail - http://www.russelmetals.com/pdf/engl...eel_Plates.pdf

Quote:
MATERIALS AND EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURE

The FEMA team obtained the structural steel examined in this study. The steel from WTC 7 was ASTM A36. The nominal composition of A36 is 0.28% C max, 0.8-1.2% Mn, 0.04% P, 0.05% S, 0.15-0.3% Si balance Fe. The as-fabricated wide flange beam analyzed had a microstructure that consisted of a banded hot worked mixture of ferrite and pearlite as shown in Fig. 1. The structural steel column that was examined was from either WTC 1 or 2 and was known to be a high strength structural steel, and not A36. Since chemistry control for structural steels is generally quite liberal, the exact ASTM designation was not known. The nominal composition of this steel is 0.15% C max, 1.00% Mn max, 0.04% P max, 0.04% S max, 0.2% Cu min with a possible Si addition and residual amounts of gases, such as N and O, and elements (small amounts of these could be deliberate additions, depending upon the grade and steelmaker) such as Cr, Mo, Ti, V, Nb and Zr (with the balance being Fe) similar to an ASTM A242 grade high-strength, low-alloy (HSLA) steel. The as-fabricated column microstructure consisted of a banded hot worked mixture of ferrite and pearlite as shown in Fig. 2. The grain size is somewhat coarser and there is substantially less pearlite than observed in the A36 steel. Also, a fine dispersed phase is observed in the ferrite regions at higher magnification.
http://www.georgevandervoort.com/fa_...ade_Center.pdf

So it would appear that we are looking at ASTM A36 or ASTM A242 - the two are very similar in chemical composition except A242 has half the carbon of A36. I'd be surprised if you could tell them apart with EDX due to natural fluctuations in the steel-making process and different manufacturers.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 04:04 AM   #197
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Let me now again summarize an approximate composition of the Laclede primer and compare it to the table on the slide from Mark Basile's lecture (see post #175) :


.......................Laclede primer paint................... "Lucky Thirteen" chip
__________________________________________________ ______________
C...............................55 %........................................72 %
O (from the pigment).....13 %
O (from the binder)........12 %.......................................20 % (total O)
Fe.............................12.5 %.......................................2.2 %
Si............................... .3 %........................................1.5 %
Al...............................2.8 %.......................................1.5 %
Sr...............................0.5 %........................................ -
Cr...............................0.3 %.......................................0.2 %

Taking into account a difference in the carbon content (which is not easy to determine, as explained by Almond), the composition of these two things seems to be roughly similar - except the big difference in the iron content. But this was just a remark, I am just playing somehow with the available data)

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 18th August 2011 at 04:16 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 04:41 AM   #198
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Have you ever done such a job like burning an old paint off the steel or other metal with a propane torch?
I have done fire watch over welders working on fishing boats. The chip that was ignited by the torch in the first video looked just like the paint chips I have seen hit with a welding torch on the boats. (That they behave like that is part of why we have to do fire watch when somebody is welding.)

Quote:
If you have an electric stove at your home, turn it on and heat it up to the temperatures ca 400 – 500 degrees of C (very deep red/purple color I guess, http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=140). (These are the temperatures at which the alleged nanothermite was ignited under air in the Bentham paper under discussion.) When you put particles of some organic matter on the stove (spices, flour, wood dust, etc.) they again quickly burn/sparkle with a release of some tiny smoke.
Black pepper works really well. If it is coarse enough, you will also get a distinct "POP" when each grain catches fire.

Quote:
(In summary: Do you understand our claim that any such experiment performed under air cannot prove thermite?)
Given what we know about paint under a wleding torch and pepper on a stove, we can say that it sort of disproves thermite. The flamed chip did not burn even as brightly as a cumin seed.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 04:47 AM   #199
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Given that this video is said to be the ignition of a thermitic sample from the WTC dust. would this be an example of purely incendiary nanothermite or the explosive variety ?
No, it is an example of ********.

Quote:
It seems to swell and give off some gas when it ignites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pFb...layer_embedded
Yup. Just like ever kind of paint I have ever seen burn. And, unlike any theoretically possible thermite, it produces no significant light. It leaves a residue.

It's bleedin' paint.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2011, 05:43 AM   #200
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
...

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 18th August 2011 at 07:34 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.