ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Laclede primer , nanothermite , Niels Harrit , paint chips , tnemec , wtc

Reply
Old 24th August 2011, 04:39 AM   #281
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
This thread is a good example of the obvious reasons why Jones doesn't want independent verification of his experiments...
More importantly, it shows why every problem which raises any questions should be examined by persons with the broadest possible repetoire of skills and experience.

Most of the people on Jones' side are analytical chemists, and not among the brightest in their fields.

I don't think that Jones, Harrit or Ryan want to ask themselves any inconvenient questions.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 05:14 AM   #282
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,219
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
...
Anyway, a question for administrator: can I edit again the post #256 somehow?
You could write directly to Myriad or LashL and ask them to do the editing for you. Don't count on any moderator to read every post in the forum.
I don't think however that they'll oblige.
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 05:15 AM   #283
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,219
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
...
Most of the people on Jones' side are analytical chemists, and not among the brightest in their fields.
...
You forgot a "not", didn't you??
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 05:18 AM   #284
twinstead
Penultimate Amazing
 
twinstead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,368
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
I don't think that Jones, Harrit or Ryan want to ask themselves any inconvenient questions.
But isn't asking oneself the inconvenient questions one of the cornerstones of the scientific process?
__________________
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison
twinstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 05:22 AM   #285
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Given that the floor elements all took the express route down the inside of the towers, you shouild expect nearly all of it to have been ground away. This was the devil's own rock tumbler, with multi-ton pieces of grit slamming into the metal elements. I doubt that much paint was left on any of them by the time they reached the end of that maelstrom.

I am certain that it is mostly rust. If you look at the end of that top rail next to the bunched-up laces on the left edge, you will see that there is a dark area with slightly rusty margins. The paint has been stripped completely away, exposing the black oxide that coated the steel before it was painted. Heat and steam converted most of this black oxide to the red form (will some chemist help me out here? I am looking at it from the background of a casual construction and foundary worker.)

On the other hand, it is also a good match with the sort of colors you will see in steel recovered from a really hot fire scene days afterward.

I really doubt that any great amount of the pigment remains on the steel.
If almost all Laclede paint is supposed to be stripped away from the steel during collapses... this is an additional reason why to do some research on its imitation But still, research on some remaining particles of the original paint would be better) Concerning black and red iron oxide forms, I do not know at the moment (as a polymer chemist).
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 05:24 AM   #286
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
But isn't asking oneself the inconvenient questions one of the cornerstones of the scientific process?
Which is why those three clowns get no respect here.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 08:43 AM   #287
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Leftysergeant: I am not sure if these chemists are really bad, they seem to me to be just tragically biased in this case.

- Looking to my visual documentation, I should buy a better camera. Up to now, my expenses in this case were 60 Czech Crowns (ca 3 US Dollars) for the epoxide adhesive, I should spend more money here)

- Today, I gave samples of my Laclede imitation to TGA measurements (both under air and under nitrogen), up to 700 oC (the end temperature of Harritīs DSC curves) and one sample will be heated in the special oven up to 700 oC under air. We will have a look on them by some good microscope. EDAX is available here...

- But do not expect too much since I simply cannot afford any really extensive research in this matter. Just several samples are allowed for me...

- To my surprise: there are 3 DSC devices in our institute, but none of them is running under air. All of them rutinelly use inert atmosphere. It seems that I have got a completely opposite problem here than Harritīs team had... No DSC measurements under air easily available

- Concerning sample of Laclede imitation heated up to 700 oC (heated but not exposed to flame) under air, I am basically looking for the iron-rich microspheres formed during alleged t....ic reaction described by Harrit and Jones. If present, this could be great, kind of proof I think. If missing in the Laclede imitation "ash", no wonder - even Henryco had not clearly found them in the burned red chips.

- In my first Laclede imitation preparation, dark red-brownish iron oxide was used. Do not expect, therefore, brightly red chips in any (possible) color video, photo or microphoto All of them will be simply dark red-brownish because of iron oxide used....

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 24th August 2011 at 08:58 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 09:35 AM   #288
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Leftysergeant: I am not sure if these chemists are really bad, they seem to me to be just tragically biased in this case.

- Looking to my visual documentation, I should buy a better camera. Up to now, my expenses in this case were 60 Czech Crowns (ca 3 US Dollars) for the epoxide adhesive, I should spend more money here)

- Today, I gave samples of my Laclede imitation to TGA measurements (both under air and under nitrogen), up to 700 oC (the end temperature of Harritīs DSC curves) and one sample will be heated in the special oven up to 700 oC under air. We will have a look on them by some good microscope. EDAX is available here...

- But do not expect too much since I simply cannot afford any really extensive research in this matter. Just several samples are allowed for me...

- To my surprise: there are 3 DSC devices in our institute, but none of them is running under air. All of them rutinelly use inert atmosphere. It seems that I have got a completely opposite problem here than Harritīs team had... No DSC measurements under air easily available

- Concerning sample of Laclede imitation heated up to 700 oC (heated but not exposed to flame) under air, I am basically looking for the iron-rich microspheres formed during alleged t....ic reaction described by Harrit and Jones. If present, this could be great, kind of proof I think. If missing in the Laclede imitation "ash", no wonder - even Henryco had not clearly found them in the burned red chips.

- In my first Laclede imitation preparation, dark red-brownish iron oxide was used. Do not expect, therefore, brightly red chips in any (possible) color video, photo or microphoto All of them will be simply dark red-brownish because of iron oxide used....
It's the gray layer iron oxide that forms the majority of the spheres in the Harrit et al paper. Fig 20 and 23 show post DSC residue where it's clear that a lot of the red material remains but the gray layer has formed spheres. I would expect some in your experiment though. Fingers crossed.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 09:37 AM   #289
alienentity
Illuminator
 
alienentity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,325
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
..

- To my surprise: there are 3 DSC devices in our institute, but none of them is running under air. All of them rutinelly use inert atmosphere. It seems that I have got a completely opposite problem here than Harritīs team had... No DSC measurements under air easily available
Maybe you should send a sample off to Jeff Farrer at BYU. They routinely use air in their DSC machines...

I'm with you on the qualifications of the chemists in the Jones/Harrit team. I looked at the list of publications of Harrit recently, and I see nothing in his history to indicate that he has expertise in nanothermitic materials.
http://aneta.org/NielsHarrit_org/
Certainly Steven Jones does not have such expertise.

However, IIRC, neither Mssrs Jones and Harrit initially came to doubt the mainstream consensus on 9/11 until they were influenced by David Ray Griffin, and at least one of them (I think Harrit) found the collapse of WTC 7 suspicious.
That is, neither came to their suspicions thru scientific inquiry in their areas of expertise. Rather they acted as laymen, then used their scientific training to construct rationales for these opinions.

This confirmation bias is the main problem, IMO.
__________________
Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!'
000063 - 'Problem with the Truthers' theories is that anyone with enough power to pull it off doesn't need to in the first place.'
mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'
alienentity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 03:29 PM   #290
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You forgot a "not", didn't you??
I am saying that they are analytical chemists (though this may not be exactly the right word) in that they have some capacity to figure out what is in a substance. They are just clueless as to how it should behave in the real world.

They can compile statistics, but they do not interpret the statistics well.

They do seem to have come to the conclusion, after a lot of screwing around, that one of their chips was Tmenec. Tmenec forms a remarkably small proportion of the total WTC dust. Were it the only kind of paint used on the structural steel, this would immediately look wrong, given the degree to which the collapse apparently ground the LaClede paint from the floor trusses.

The Jones team forgot to ask first what should have been present in the dust and in what quantities. They have, instead, just reported what they found and what they take it to represent.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 10:43 PM   #291
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Hi pteridine,
I don't think I have seen you around here, so happy to see you in my thread, especially since you seem to have a good grasp on the topic!
The information about Al stages is news to me. Not sure if anybody has thought of this before, and if and how we can eliminate that as a problem. I think I remember that C coating of ...whatever... poses a problem for determining C content. Does that ring a bell?

Anyway, the goal here is not to identify all the flaws that Jones, Harrit and co committed on their way to a moronic conclusions, but to make the best of their work and identify the paint. I think we are already quite certain that the gray layer is oxidized, flaked-off steel. If we could identify the type of steel ... but I think data resolution is too bad for that. As a second best option, we should formulate a theory about the gray layer ("it's Axx steel that oxidized when... and spalled off such and such..."), then, using literature, make predictions about how that would look like in the experiments that were in fact done: EDS spectra, microscopic appearance, electrical resistance, magnetism, ... If we find our predictions are a good fit with experiment, our theory is viable - and the only theory out there, afaik.
All such indirect metallurgic research would be useful.
Even my little indirect (but otherwise real) research on Laclede imitation could be useful, if I am lucky enough. (If not, does not matter, I have spent just several hours on the preparation of samples).

But still: having at hand just several real chips of genuine Laclede paint on the rusted steel would be much more useful. If such samples look as chips (a) to (d) under microscope and have the same/very similar XEDS signatures, these would be proofs good enough.

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 24th August 2011 at 11:01 PM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 11:05 PM   #292
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,219
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
I am saying that they are analytical chemists (though this may not be exactly the right word) in that they have some capacity to figure out what is in a substance. They are just clueless as to how it should behave in the real world.
We have 3 physicists, 1 business analyst, 1 with a degree in agriculture, 1 geologist, and only 2 actual chemists on that team.

Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
They can compile statistics, but they do not interpret the statistics well.

They do seem to have come to the conclusion, after a lot of screwing around, that one of their chips was Tmenec.
Huh? When? Where?

Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Tmenec forms a remarkably small proportion of the total WTC dust. Were it the only kind of paint used on the structural steel, this would immediately look wrong, given the degree to which the collapse apparently ground the LaClede paint from the floor trusses.
What do you base this claim on?

Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
The Jones team forgot to ask first what should have been present in the dust and in what quantities. They have, instead, just reported what they found and what they take it to represent.
I see no fundamental problem with that. For all I care, this is just a fun quest to identify the identity of certain randomly picked particles. Doesn't have to matter where they are from or why we are looking at them in the first place. We could think of this as some kind of homework assignment in school, with no connection to real world events.
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2011, 11:09 PM   #293
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,219
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
All such indirect metallurgic research would be useful.
Even my little indirect (but otherwise real) research on Laclede imitation could be useful, if I am lucky enough. (If not, does not matter, I have spent just several hours on the preparation of samples).

But still: having at hand just several real chips of genuine Laclede paint on the rusted steel would be much more useful. If such samples look as chips (a) to (d) under microscope and have the same/very similar XEDS signatures, these would be proofs good enough.
I am currently not able to focus on this, and will be gone travelling from today till monday.
If nobody steps in, I'll try to find out who to write to (at NIST?) to ask if and where some floor truss remains are saved, and how paint samples can be secured from there.
We'd then need someone to actually go there...
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2011, 12:34 AM   #294
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I am currently not able to focus on this, and will be gone travelling from today till monday.
If nobody steps in, I'll try to find out who to write to (at NIST?) to ask if and where some floor truss remains are saved, and how paint samples can be secured from there.
We'd then need someone to actually go there...
This would be really great (such a direct inquiry to NIST). I am also going to be rather busy because of some planned traveling (a visit of polymer conference in Turkey from 2nd to 9th September) so not much time remaining to beat nanothermite people already before a tenth anniversary of 9/11 attacks of islamists

Meanwhile... I have spent some time this morning with NCSTAR1-3c Report (http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=101019). It seems that not much paint had been left not only on floor trusses, but even on core columns (?)

There is a Table 6-2 on the analyses of structural elements. One of them was floor truss labeled C-115. There is a note: "No paint available for analysis". But this truss was probably subjected to high temperature.

On the other hand (for Sunstealer) there are interesting microphotos of steel of this floor truss - Fig. 6-24 to 6-28.

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 25th August 2011 at 02:13 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2011, 02:59 AM   #295
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Just for the record (a conference in Turkey must wait): a citation from this NIST older report http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/bu...PDF/b05032.pdf (including some paint examination and paint mapping):

"The paint samples tested were taken from exterior columns. Burn test were proposed for core columns to establish the same calibration, but sufficient material with intact paint on the core columns could not be isolated. The Tnemic series was in common use in high-rise construction steel at the time of the erection of the WTC, and it is assumed that the paint on the core columns that was imaged in this study (a very limited sample) was also of this type..."

No mention on paint applied on floor trusses there.

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 25th August 2011 at 03:21 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2011, 02:53 AM   #296
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Again some running remarks (before I get some results on Laclede imitation heated up to 700 o)...):

Concerning expected thermal behavior of common polymer binders (like epoxides), Dr. J. Stejskal from our institute told me:
- Under air, such polymers are usually completely oxidized/degraded/vaporized during heating up to such high temperatures, with the very little/none carbon material left.
- Under inert atmosphere, polymers frequently (but now always) "carbonize/graphitize" at such conditions, forming (dark) complex polyaromatic residues, sometimes close to the graphite structure. Such reactions proceed just because of lack of oxygen.

I can judge from this: if the chips (a) to (d) in Harrit's paper were paint particles and were heated up in the oxygen atmosphere, we can expect just one important change in their XEDS signature: the missing (or very small) peak of carbon after heating (since all carbon stuff was oxidized/burned/vaporized). This is roughly what we really see in Harrit's paper (compare Fig. 7 and Figs. 21, 25 and 26). It is a pity that Harrit did not publish XEDS signatures of areas outside of these "microspheres".

Concerning microspheres: I was quite surprised when I found that fly ash (as a very possible main source of microspheres found in the WTC dust) consist almost solely of various such tiny round things (source: corresponding entry in Wikipedia or Google image search using "fly ash" as keywords.)

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 26th August 2011 at 03:33 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2011, 08:48 AM   #297
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,219
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
...
I gathered powdered iron oxide and a form of aluminosilicate called Nanoclay. ...
Ivan,
do you have any more information on this Nanoclay? Technical info, data sheet, manufacturer, price per kg, ...
I am especially interested in particle size
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2011, 06:22 PM   #298
WilliamSeger
Master Poster
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,292
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
(We need to establish the nomenclature of the parts of the truss assembly if we look any closer at this element.)
This type of truss is called an Open Web Steel Joist (OWSJ). The top and bottom "chords" are made from standard steel angles, and the "web" is made from rolled bar stock.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2011, 11:25 PM   #299
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Ivan, do you have any more information on this Nanoclay? Technical info, data sheet, manufacturer, price per kg, ...
I am especially interested in particle size
You can find the specification of this Nanoclay (kind of montmorillonite) here: http://www.nanocor.com/tech_sheets/G105.pdf . Citation: "Montmorillonites have a sheet-type or platey structure. Although their dimensions in the length and width directions can be measured in hundreds of nanometers, the mineral’s thickness is only one nanometer." (But these "nanosheets" are probably easily stacking, forming "multisheets".)

I cannot be sure, how the behavior of this nanoclay (used in my first paint imitation) is close to the "aluminum silicate" used in Laclede paint. Even elemental composition can be different.

I also do not know (and cannot know) how close is my iron oxide to the iron oxide used in Laclede paint.

Moreover, I have used universal epoxy instead of special epoxy dispersion for electrocoating.

All this may influence the thermal behavior of the paint imitation somehow, e.g. size of iron oxide particles can influence a formation of rounded iron-richer particles observed in the heated chips by Harrit (but not by HenryCo; and also Mark Basile did not observed such "microspheres" but just some not very clearly visible "iron-rich" elongated droplets in the burned "Lucky Thirteen" chip).

In short: this mixture is just the first attempt to prepare something comparatively close to Laclede paint, since we cannot expect that the thermal behavior of such a mixture can be found in the literature. So once again: if this imitation shows the similar exotherms as chips (a) to (d) and rounded shiny particles are formed during heating under air, this would be great. But even so, the behavior of some other imitation using different chemicals (e.g. kaolinite as aluminosilicate, different iron oxide, and transparent epoxy paint instead of universal epoxy) should confirm such "preliminary results" for publishing these data in any scientific publication (?)
Anyway, the investigation of the real Laclede paint would be definitely more useful, straightforward and convincing.

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 28th August 2011 at 12:22 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2011, 12:44 AM   #300
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
...Btw, there is an entry "Grind: #4 Hegman gauge" in the specification of Laclede paint. If I understand, this should mean (http://www.byk.com/en/instruments/ph...man-gages.html) that pigment particles up to 50 μm could be present in that paint, but as the biggest ones - the most of pigment particles could be much, much smaller...

Another entry in Laclede specification: "Gloss: 30-50". This should mean that paint has "semi-gloss" or "egg-shell" surface. Up to now, I have found no correlation of the paint gloss (usually measured by some reflectance method) with the paint surface smoothness... Anyway, we cannot be sure that surface of the red layer of chips (a) to (d) was not affected/changed, e.g., during collapses...

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 28th August 2011 at 01:35 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2011, 01:46 AM   #301
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
...Btw, there is an entry "Grind: #4 Hegman gauge" in the specification of Laclede paint. If I understand, this should mean (http://www.byk.com/en/instruments/ph...man-gages.html) that pigment particles up to 50 μm could be present in that paint, but as the biggest ones - the most of pigment particles could be much, much smaller...

Another entry in Laclede specification: "Gloss: 30-50". This should mean that paint has "semi-gloss" or "egg-shell" surface. Up to now, I have found no correlation of the paint gloss (usually measured by some reflectance method) with the paint surface smoothness... Anyway, we cannot be sure that surface of the red layer of chips (a) to (d) was not affected/changed, e.g., during collapses...
Back in the late '60's or early 70's would they have been able to seperate out workable quantities of iron oxide nanoparticles or would the laClede paint have contained just the normal quantities of nanoparticles that you would expect to find find in any generic sample of iron oxide ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 28th August 2011 at 01:50 AM.
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2011, 11:13 PM   #302
Ivan Kminek
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Back in the late '60's or early 70's would they have been able to seperate out workable quantities of iron oxide nanoparticles or would the laClede paint have contained just the normal quantities of nanoparticles that you would expect to find find in any generic sample of iron oxide ?
(Sorry, I am not expert on milling or pigments, but anyway...)
I think that Oystein already explained you that pigment/filler particles (e.g. aluminosilicates) smaller than 1 μm are nothing unusual and are frequently found even in raw materials. Such size of particle can be obtained by common milling/grinding methods (e.g. ball milling) which have been known and used for a long time. According to many tables available (put keywords "particle size table" into Google image search), the usual size of pigment particles is in the range 0.1 to 5 μm .

As regards iron oxide, it seems that its particles in Harrit's chips have an average size about 0.1 μm (100 nm) (see e.g. abstract). Again, nothing unusual, I think. Citation http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...04885399004953 "Nanoparticles of hematite can be found in nature forming part of minerals and soils, and they can also be synthesized in the laboratory by means of grinding or chemical methods." E.g., in the manufacture of magnetic tapes, frequently used in "golden sixties" for recording, metal oxides (including iron oxides) of submicron particle sizes were employed.

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 29th August 2011 at 12:04 AM.
Ivan Kminek is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 09:42 AM   #303
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
(Sorry, I am not expert on milling or pigments, but anyway...)
I think that Oystein already explained you that pigment/filler particles (e.g. aluminosilicates) smaller than 1 μm are nothing unusual and are frequently found even in raw materials. Such size of particle can be obtained by common milling/grinding methods (e.g. ball milling) which have been known and used for a long time. According to many tables available (put keywords "particle size table" into Google image search), the usual size of pigment particles is in the range 0.1 to 5 μm .

As regards iron oxide, it seems that its particles in Harrit's chips have an average size about 0.1 μm (100 nm) (see e.g. abstract). Again, nothing unusual, I think. Citation http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...04885399004953 "Nanoparticles of hematite can be found in nature forming part of minerals and soils, and they can also be synthesized in the laboratory by means of grinding or chemical methods." E.g., in the manufacture of magnetic tapes, frequently used in "golden sixties" for recording, metal oxides (including iron oxides) of submicron particle sizes were employed.
So would you expect iron oxide and paint pigment particles in 1960's paint to have an average particle size as small as 0.1 um ? Was nanotechnology already so well developed back then ?

If not then the paint argument may have run into a problem.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 29th August 2011 at 09:47 AM.
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 09:54 AM   #304
WilliamSeger
Master Poster
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,292
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
So would you expect iron oxide and paint pigment particles in 1960's paint to have an average particle size as small as 0.1 um ? Was nanotechnology already so well developed back then ?

If not then the paint argument may have run into a problem.
You seem to have missed the boat: The idea that nanotechnology is necessary to produce nano-sized particles is just another example of the faulty reasoning in that "peer-reviewed" paper.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 10:33 AM   #305
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You seem to have missed the boat: The idea that nanotechnology is necessary to produce nano-sized particles is just another example of the faulty reasoning in that "peer-reviewed" paper.
He also doesn't realise that man has been using nano-technology for thousands of years. I presume he's never used a pestle and mortar before either. He also won't know that synthetic pigment was being made in the 18th century and specifically synthetic Fe2O3 in the 19th.

http://www.bereder-select.com/OCHRE%20HISTORY.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochre
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 11:34 AM   #306
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
He also doesn't realise that man has been using nano-technology for thousands of years. I presume he's never used a pestle and mortar before either. He also won't know that synthetic pigment was being made in the 18th century and specifically synthetic Fe2O3 in the 19th.

http://www.bereder-select.com/OCHRE%20HISTORY.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochre
Ivan says that the average iron oxide perticle size in Harrit's chips is 0.1 um. Are you prepared to categorically state that you think the average iron oxide particle in 1960's paint would be as small ?

If not you have a problem. Try to avoid obfuscation in the answer please.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 29th August 2011 at 12:24 PM.
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 11:42 AM   #307
sheeplesnshills
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,706
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Ivan says that the average iron oxide perticle size in Harrit's chips is 0.01 um. Are you prepared to categorically state that you think the average iron oxide particle in 1960's paint would be as smalll ?

If not you have a problem. Try to avoid obfuscation in the answer please.
How so? First you would have to show that the paint used on the towers was average. If you can't, you have a problem. Try to avoid obfuscation in the answer please.
sheeplesnshills is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 11:47 AM   #308
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 13,153
Originally Posted by sheeplesnshills View Post
How so? First you would have to show that the paint used on the towers was average. If you can't, you have a problem. Try to avoid obfuscation in the answer please.

Also try to avoid moving the goal posts by an order of magnitude:

Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Ivan says that the average iron oxide perticle size in Harrit's chips is 0.01 um.

Respectfully,
Myriad
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 12:27 PM   #309
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Also try to avoid moving the goal posts by an order of magnitude:




Respectfully,
Myriad
Gracias Myriad.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 12:55 PM   #310
sheeplesnshills
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,706
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Gracias Myriad.

Curious as to what you are thanking him for?

sheeplesnshills is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 01:39 PM   #311
MikeW
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,910
Conspiracy Files on BBC2 just had a Carnegie Mellon professor saying Harrit's reacting material was probably paint.
MikeW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 02:07 PM   #312
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Ivan says that the average iron oxide perticle size in Harrit's chips is 0.1 um. Are you prepared to categorically state that you think the average iron oxide particle in 1960's paint would be as small ?

If not you have a problem. Try to avoid obfuscation in the answer please.
Yes, absolutely no problem at all, none whatsoever. I suggest you do some research into the history of paint and coatings. You might learn something.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 02:10 PM   #313
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
Conspiracy Files on BBC2 just had a Carnegie Mellon professor saying Harrit's reacting material was probably paint.
We all know it's paint. Only a truther would think that a 20ĩm layer of thermite can burn through an inch of steel. It's so obvious that it's paint it hurts.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 02:33 PM   #314
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,219
Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
Conspiracy Files on BBC2 just had a Carnegie Mellon professor saying Harrit's reacting material was probably paint.
Got a name? Quote? Link?
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 02:34 PM   #315
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,219
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Yes, absolutely no problem at all, none whatsoever. I suggest you do some research into the history of paint and coatings. You might learn something.
Bill is not here to learn. Bill is here to troll. Bill is JAQing off.
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 02:36 PM   #316
MikeW
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,910
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
We all know it's paint. Only a truther would think that a 20ĩm layer of thermite can burn through an inch of steel. It's so obvious that it's paint it hurts.
Sure. I just meant it's interesting to see the same idea being proposed by these professors (they also made the point that the energy release was less than that of burning paper). They can't so easily be dismissed as "debunkers", though doubtless the truthers will find a way anyway: pick a government connection to Carnegie Mellon, I suppose, and use that to say they took this view for their own self interest.

Hmm, what I didn't note down were these professor's names... Let's see if I can find out.
MikeW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 02:57 PM   #317
MikeW
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,910
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Got a name? Quote? Link?
The guy talking about paint was Professor Chris Pistorius

From the program:

Pistorius: "They found bits of paint I think"

BBC: "Paint?"

Pistorius: "Yes. Errr, it is not unusual to use as a primer or an intermediate coat of paint, err, barrier of pigments, like micaceous iron oxide which is a flaky kind of iron oxide, and aluminum, which is what they found.

BBC: [Harrit says he looked at one type of paint from the WTC and it didn't match (paraphrasing)]

Pistorius: "Any large structure like the WTC was would have lots of different coatings on it. There would be interior coatings, these red and grey layers, they are typical for paint from structural steel work"

BBC: This type of primer is painted all over the Manhattan bridge in New York to protect the steel cables. And the temperature at which the red-grey chips start to react is exactly what you would expect from this type of paint.

The program can be seen online on BBC's iPlayer, for folks in the UK anyway. It's available for the next 7 days at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006x8d6 (and I'm sure it'll be on YouTube in the next few hours for everyone else).
MikeW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 03:30 PM   #318
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
The guy talking about paint was Professor Chris Pistorius

From the program:

Pistorius: "They found bits of paint I think"

BBC: "Paint?"

Pistorius: "Yes. Errr, it is not unusual to use as a primer or an intermediate coat of paint, err, barrier of pigments, like micaceous iron oxide which is a flaky kind of iron oxide, and aluminum, which is what they found.

BBC: [Harrit says he looked at one type of paint from the WTC and it didn't match (paraphrasing)]

Pistorius: "Any large structure like the WTC was would have lots of different coatings on it. There would be interior coatings, these red and grey layers, they are typical for paint from structural steel work"

BBC: This type of primer is painted all over the Manhattan bridge in New York to protect the steel cables. And the temperature at which the red-grey chips start to react is exactly what you would expect from this type of paint.

The program can be seen online on BBC's iPlayer, for folks in the UK anyway. It's available for the next 7 days at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006x8d6 (and I'm sure it'll be on YouTube in the next few hours for everyone else).
I think he explained the grey layer too. What was it he said about that ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 03:34 PM   #319
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
The guy talking about paint was Professor Chris Pistorius

From the program:

Pistorius: "They found bits of paint I think"

BBC: "Paint?"

Pistorius: "Yes. Errr, it is not unusual to use as a primer or an intermediate coat of paint, err, barrier of pigments, like micaceous iron oxide which is a flaky kind of iron oxide, and aluminum, which is what they found.

BBC: [Harrit says he looked at one type of paint from the WTC and it didn't match (paraphrasing)]

Pistorius: "Any large structure like the WTC was would have lots of different coatings on it. There would be interior coatings, these red and grey layers, they are typical for paint from structural steel work"

BBC: This type of primer is painted all over the Manhattan bridge in New York to protect the steel cables. And the temperature at which the red-grey chips start to react is exactly what you would expect from this type of paint.

The program can be seen online on BBC's iPlayer, for folks in the UK anyway. It's available for the next 7 days at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006x8d6 (and I'm sure it'll be on YouTube in the next few hours for everyone else).
Thanks - the quote is from 35:30 in the above video. Nice to have confirmation.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2011, 03:38 PM   #320
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
It was possible in the bronze age to produce nanoclay. Just make a thin slurry of soil with a high clay content, let it settle out a bit and drain off the top layer of water into another holding vessel or pit. I was lucky enough, on one field problem in Korea, to see a small pottery operation employing this technique when we were bivouaced next to a clay pit. They used the really fine clay in a sort of slip glaze.

I doubt that modern factories would use the same method. They could just screen their ground-up red oxide or bentonite in the same manner that a flour mill might. It's not like they were trying to grind rocks. There is nothing magical or high-tech about creating nano-particles of anything.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:09 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Đ 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.