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Tags james millette , kevin ryan , Niels Harrit , paint chips , richard gage , steven jones , wtc

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Old 26th March 2012, 05:28 AM   #241
Ivan Kminek
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Has been this debate on Politicalforum.com already linked?

Now, it seems to be closed because: "This thread is so full of rule violations."

Here, the truther SkyStryker insists that Millette's study has proven nothing, since the origin of his chips was not disclosed. All others disagree...
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Old 26th March 2012, 06:15 AM   #242
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Here's my general take on this thread.

Suppose there was a theory that the WTC towers were destroyed using a particularly corrosive type of hummus. To back up this theory, the rubble has been thoroughly sifted for signs of chick peas, olive oil, or other components matching the profile of hummus.

In this scenario, we would have a thread similar to this one, debating endlessly about whether one paper or another conclusively detected the presence of tahini or garlic, or that it adequately ruled out any alternative explanation for its alleged presence.

The fact remains...the core of the argument is STUPID.

HUMMUS WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. IT HAS NEVER BEEN USED THAT WAY. THERE IS NO KNOWN SCENARIO IN WHICH IT COULD BE USED THAT WAY.

So all the arguing about whether the remains of chick-peas have been found is ludicrous.

That's all I have to say on the matter.
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Old 26th March 2012, 07:14 AM   #243
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Ivan,
no I haven't seen that debate yet. Thanks!


Aggle,
you are of course right. The issue here in this thread is not so much whether or not thermite was found, but how truthers react to the preliminary findings. To summarize:
Millette found some red-gray chips. 100% of their ingredients are very common, mundane paint ingredients. Nothing distinguishes these chips from paint. In particular, no elemental Al in these chips, so these chips are not in any way shape or form thermitic, nor have they ever been.

Oh, and: These chips really look VERY much like Harrit's chips (a)-(d)

I think the most important, and first lesson here is:

There must be more than one kind of red-gray chips, and one of these kinds - the one with epoxy, hematite and kaolin, that is practically identical with Harrit's - is not thermite


A corrollary:
Harrit e.al. failed to notice that the chips aren't all the same, and mistook paint chips for thermite
which raises the question:
Are any chips at all thermitic, if yes, which?


The truther response ought to have been "Hey guys, I think Millette found a serious problem with Harrit e.al. - that needs to get fixed". What we see instead is hand-waving, character assassination, dishonest quote mining, and more incompetent analysis and conclusions, all driven by extreme confirmation bias.

In the end, I think, this study will expose some leaders of the TM as liars, and many of their followers as uncritical cheerleaders. I see it happening already. Even Frank Legge got a little unsure and wonders if Farrer's FTIR and TEM data can be published.
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Old 26th March 2012, 02:25 PM   #244
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OK, Oystein, but I have yet to find a thread out there where the character assassins aren't being corrected, sometimes by you, sometimes by other 9/11 Truth people. I think it's more accurate to say the Truth movement is deeply divided about the Millette study.
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Old 26th March 2012, 02:36 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
OK, Oystein, but I have yet to find a thread out there where the character assassins aren't being corrected, sometimes by you, sometimes by other 9/11 Truth people. I think it's more accurate to say the Truth movement is deeply divided about the Millette study.
Deeply might be a little over zealous. I've seen more handwaving and ignorance about Millettes study than I have acceptance. A few twoofers are curious, most disregard
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Old 26th March 2012, 03:17 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
OK, Oystein, but I have yet to find a thread out there where the character assassins aren't being corrected, sometimes by you, sometimes by other 9/11 Truth people. I think it's more accurate to say the Truth movement is deeply divided about the Millette study.
True, but most of that divide reflects pre-existing divides. Those that reprsent Millette's findings truthfully for the most part already have serious problems with CD claims. Those who are firmly in the CD crowd are mostly eager to hand-wave him.
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Old 26th March 2012, 03:38 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Has been this debate on Politicalforum.com already linked?

Now, it seems to be closed because: "This thread is so full of rule violations."

Here, the truther SkyStryker insists that Millette's study has proven nothing, since the origin of his chips was not disclosed. All others disagree...

Ha! Great thread. Another great example of truther integrity. Page 1 & 2:

Originally Posted by SkyStryker
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Hannibal
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by SkyStryker
Considering they admit they don't know the origin of the red/gray chips then the entire experiment was a waste of time and money. Why do people so foolishly tout this as proving anything?
You should read the paper, it discusses this very issue.
I don't need to waste time reading the paper. Maybe you can find some silly reason to justify the test results but since they don't know the origin of the test subjects it is completely useless.
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Old 26th March 2012, 11:00 PM   #248
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I am not sure if fulltext search works reliably here... anyway, here is another debate on usmessageboard.com I noticed about one week ago.

Since I am Czech, I found interesting this sentence of truther eots:
"why would I give money to some broke ass Czech tele -tubbie / self proclaimed armature debunker and his crew ..he can buy his own hot dogs and vodka..."

Of course I have no idea who should be this Czech tele-tubbie according to eots, perhaps Oystein? Or Chris?

Last edited by Ivan Kminek; 26th March 2012 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 26th March 2012, 11:54 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
I am not sure if fulltext search works reliably here... anyway, here is another debate on usmessageboard.com I noticed about one week ago.

Since I am Czech, I found interesting this sentence of truther eots:
"why would I give money to some broke ass Czech tele -tubbie / self proclaimed armature debunker and his crew ..he can buy his own hot dogs and vodka..."

Of course I have no idea who should be this Czech tele-tubbie according to eots, perhaps Oystein? Or Chris?
Why give money to a Czech!? Because you have great beer! I remember laying on the street with my bike in my hands, looking up at gargoyles after drinking tons of Czech beer in Vicenza, It, on my way to my apartment, past midnight.

I don't need to test dust to know thermite was not used on 911. But I will buy a beer for a Czech when I get to the Republic. Tons.

Checking dust to see if it is thermite is like testing scat to see if Santa Claus and his sled were in town.
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Old 27th March 2012, 12:50 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
Here's my general take on this thread.

Suppose there was a theory that the WTC towers were destroyed using a particularly corrosive type of hummus. To back up this theory, the rubble has been thoroughly sifted for signs of chick peas, olive oil, or other components matching the profile of hummus.

In this scenario, we would have a thread similar to this one, debating endlessly about whether one paper or another conclusively detected the presence of tahini or garlic, or that it adequately ruled out any alternative explanation for its alleged presence.

The fact remains...the core of the argument is STUPID.

HUMMUS WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. IT HAS NEVER BEEN USED THAT WAY. THERE IS NO KNOWN SCENARIO IN WHICH IT COULD BE USED THAT WAY.

So all the arguing about whether the remains of chick-peas have been found is ludicrous.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

The ONLY reason we are discussing this topic that is relevant to 9/11 conspiracy is because we foolishly go along with truthers and trolls in their arse about logic.

They want to claim CD. They cannot, after 10 years trying, demonstrate anything even close to a reasoned argument for CD. The reality is there was no CD as most engineers and a lot of other people have known for years.

So the trolls ( the truthers having been left behind) the trolls take us down side tracks. Some of our members have a genuine interest in the science of "was there thermXte or not?" That interest is totally irrelevant to 9/11 conspiracy. There was no demolition so even if there was a 100 tonne stockpile of thermXte on ground zero it wasn't used for CD. End of discussion of thermXte relevant to CD.

But those interested in the science continue to feed the trolls.

So that is the end of my "conventional rebuttal" HOWEVER there are signs that this Millette study is causing the few of the remaining honest truthers to have second thoughts.

So it may come to good despite all the problems of feeding trolls.
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Old 27th March 2012, 02:37 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
...
Of course I have no idea who should be this Czech tele-tubbie according to eots, perhaps Oystein? Or Chris?
A Norse-Jewish tele-tubbie Czech? That'd be scaaaary!
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Old 27th March 2012, 10:45 PM   #252
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aggle-rithm, ozeco41: you both tend to overlook that we don't care about thermites. Our interest is to find what kinds of RED PAINTS were materials of red-gray chips in WTC dust.

Oystein: It's perhaps funny that as a polymer chemist, I'm repeatedly receiving offers to publish in Bentham Science Publishers, more specifically in the journal Current Organic Chemistry
I have no reason to publish the results of my scientific work in "open" journals, since I have to publish in journals with high impact factors and high reputation in the field, but anyway, it's interesting. And it reminds me that I formerly suggested to publish our white-paper in Bentham. (But, after the reaction of Frank Greening, I think that it is not really good idea).

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Old 29th March 2012, 02:06 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
Here's my general take on this thread.

Suppose there was a theory that the WTC towers were destroyed using a particularly corrosive type of hummus. To back up this theory, the rubble has been thoroughly sifted for signs of chick peas, olive oil, or other components matching the profile of hummus.

In this scenario, we would have a thread similar to this one, debating endlessly about whether one paper or another conclusively detected the presence of tahini or garlic, or that it adequately ruled out any alternative explanation for its alleged presence.

The fact remains...the core of the argument is STUPID.

HUMMUS WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. IT HAS NEVER BEEN USED THAT WAY. THERE IS NO KNOWN SCENARIO IN WHICH IT COULD BE USED THAT WAY.

So all the arguing about whether the remains of chick-peas have been found is ludicrous.

That's all I have to say on the matter.
Made my day

Thanks
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Old 29th March 2012, 02:36 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
aggle-rithm, ozeco41: you both tend to overlook that we don't care about thermites. Our interest is to find what kinds of RED PAINTS were materials of red-gray chips in WTC dust.
Ivan. Neither aggle-rithm nor I are overlooking anything. You are the one who has lost perspective or you would not have made that ill conceived statement.

Keep up the good work on what interests you.

...but keep in mind the saying "he got so close to the tree that he cannot see the forest."
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Old 29th March 2012, 02:49 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
911Blogger now approaching full melt-down / schism mode:

I am having fun! Why have I never before followed that blog?
The funny thing is that when an outsider refutes them, they circle the wagons.
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Old 29th March 2012, 03:07 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
The funny thing is that when an outsider refutes them, they circle the wagons.
Quoted for truth.
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Old 29th March 2012, 09:46 AM   #257
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"Debunking the debunkers" has published a new excercise in double speak:

http://911debunkers.blogspot.de/2012...-al-paper.html

Main points:
1. Debunkers take Harrit e.al. serious by commissioning a repeat study. This makes allegations that Harrit e.al. wasn't peer-reviewed moot.
2. Debunkers find red-gray chips in genuine WTC dust, rendering any doubts about the origin of Jones's dust moot

First, two quick explanations why these two points won't win truthers a flower pot:
1. The problem was not the lack of peer-review as such, but that the authors and their supporters have for years, and against clear evidence, LIED when they claimed that the paper was peer-reviewed. Their very lie is the main problem, and remains the problem to this day.
2. At least I have always maintained that dust, chips and data are genuine, because the very data proves it's primer paint, not thermite. This has more weight than legitimate residual doubts about the provenance of all four samples.


But I guess publishing that blog post does help the debate along, because
1. These Truthers admit the paper had never been peer reviewed.
2. These Truthers admit that Millette's dust samples and chips are genuine.

(See? I can do that, too )
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Old 29th March 2012, 01:35 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
But I guess publishing that blog post does help the debate along, because
1. These Truthers admit the paper had never been peer reviewed.
2. These Truthers admit that Millette's dust samples and chips are genuine.

(See? I can do that, too )
That's all I got out of it when I first read it anyway
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Old 29th March 2012, 01:46 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
"Debunking the debunkers" has published a new excercise in double speak:
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post





Main points:
1. Debunkers take Harrit e.al. serious by commissioning a repeat study. This makes allegations that Harrit e.al. wasn't peer-reviewed moot.
2. Debunkers find red-gray chips in genuine WTC dust, rendering any doubts about the origin of Jones's dust moot

First, two quick explanations why these two points won't win truthers a flower pot:
1. The problem was not the lack of peer-review as such, but that the authors and their supporters have for years, and against clear evidence, LIED when they claimed that the paper was peer-reviewed. Their very lie is the main problem, and remains the problem to this day.
2. At least I have always maintained that dust, chips and data are genuine, because the very data proves it's primer paint, not thermite. This has more weight than legitimate residual doubts about the provenance of all four samples.


But I guess publishing that blog post does help the debate along, because
1. These Truthers admit the paper had never been peer reviewed.
2. These Truthers admit that Millette's dust samples and chips are genuine.

(See? I can do that, too )


Oystein's hairy legs jiu-jitsu pins truthers once again.


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Old 30th March 2012, 06:30 AM   #260
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I have tried to send Scootle Royal this email, but to no avail. If anyone an figure out how to forward this to him, I'd be grateful. Thanks, Chris

Hi Scootle,

As the organizer of the Jim Millette WTC dust study I wanted to respond to your recent blog post on Debunking the Debunkers.

While I am familiar with the arguments about whether the Bentham paper was properly peer-reviewed or whether there was a proper chain of custody for the WTC dust in that study, I have always considered these to be of very secondary interest to me. Knowing some of the people at least peripherally involved in that study, I have always asserted that Harrit/Jones et al did everything in their power to preserve the integrity of their dust samples (including rejecting some whose sources were more questionable), and that perfectly good science gets reported in the Bentham journals, whatever its peer-reviewed status.

I am glad to see that you appear to accept the validity of Millette's samples. I was motivated to organize this test because I am no chemist, and as a complete layperson the scientific arguments from both sides seemed compelling enough to warrant a serious study of the WTC dust independently. I always took the question seriously and thought a second set of tests was essential. I was willing to accept the possibility that Millette would find thermitic material in the dust, and I asked him what he would do if he found thermitics. His response convinced me he was the researcher I was looking for: "If I find it I'll publish it."

Jim Millette's initial report acknowledged initial uncertainty about the precise source of the red-gray chips, but he was unambiguous in his core conclusion that there was no thermitic material in the dust. That is what I wanted to know: is there thermitic material in the dust as Harrit et al claimed? The answer: a resounding no. Dr. Millette is now doing more research to try to get a positive I.D. on exactly what these chips are and where they came from before he publishes his final report.

Chris Mohr
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Old 30th March 2012, 06:47 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
...
Jim Millette's initial report acknowledged initial uncertainty about the precise source of the red-gray chips, but he was unambiguous in his core conclusion that there was no thermitic material in the dust.
...
Chris,

I see potential for readers to misunderstand or misrepresent what you write there. It should be more clear that
  • Millette is unambiguuous about his dust samples being actual, provable WTC dust. It follows that the "source" of the red-gray chips, in the most immediate sense, is "the WTC complex", or "verified WTC dust". Due to the sampling having been done according to a scientific protocol that is in accordance with best forensic practices, the risk that his dust samples are contaminated is probably lower than that for Jones's samples, which have been sampled and stored by amateurs.
  • Millette is unambiguous about characterizing all ingredients of the red layer: Epoxy (a common paint vehicle), pigment, pigment and pigment. While he doesn't say outright "this is paint", no other conclusion comes even close in its likelihood of being true
  • Millette merely writes that he hasn't yet determined the specific "product" which is the origin of these paint chips. He has ruled out 177 paint formulations by one particular paint manufacturer, but we KNOW already that Tnemec wasn't the only supplier of WTC primer. ScootleRoyale should be informed by now that at least the LaClede shop primer, which is not Tnemec and was painted on the floor joists, must be considered - and hasn't yet been considered by Millette, or Harrit e.al., as of the writing of the preliminary report. Given that all ingredients of the chips are characteristic for paint, there is at this time no reasonable doubt at all that these chips are actually paint on rusted steel.
  • Millette concentrated his study on red-gray chips with a particular chemical signature that is very similar, if not equal to, those presented by Harrit e.al. as chips (a)-(d). Both the Harrit e.al. and Millette studies show chips with other chemical signatures, and these were not compared with any Tnemec formulation, or indeed any paint formulation. We knew already before his study that these chips do not resemble Tnemec 99, the primer specified for the perimeter columns, so his finding them not to be Tnemec is neither new nor surprising.

Last edited by Oystein; 30th March 2012 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 30th March 2012, 07:33 AM   #262
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I agree with all of your clarifications Oystein. If anyone wants to send this on to Scootle, please include both my initial letter and Oystein's clarifications which I have read and agree with as a vitally important addendum to what I wrote.
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Old 30th March 2012, 07:54 AM   #263
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The most striking thing about the truther responses so far is that none of them have actually commented on the data produced by Millette. They consistently pick around the edges and debunkers just accommodate them.

Millette says,

Quote:
Red/gray chips that had the same morphology and appearance as those reported by Harrit et al.1, and fitting the criteria of being attracted by a magnet and having the SEM-EDS x-ray elemental spectra described in their paper (Gray: Fe, Red: C,O, Al, Si, Fe) were found in the WTC dust from all four locations examined.
, however, the only truther to acknowledge that Millette finds the same chips as Harrit et al is ergo.

Originally Posted by ergo View Post
But are there any chips that don't show Al-Si-Fe peaks ? If not, then my answer is that, based on the chemical signatures, their appearance (morphology) and magnetism, all of Millette's chips and all of Harrit's chips are essentially the same material.
and for that you have to give him credit.

If you want to get anywhere with truthers on another forum then start with the absolute basics. Ask one simple question at a time and don't allow them to dictate by moving the goal posts or getting side tracked by rubbish.

Will they even accept that some of Millette's EDX spectra matches that of samples a-d in Harrit et al, i.e Fig 7?

Will they accept that Millette separated those chips that matched and did further analysis on them?

I doubt you will get any straight answer to those 2 simple questions.
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Old 1st April 2012, 09:27 PM   #264
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Random question, I'm a little out of the loop. Has Harrit or Jones or AE911 given a proper rebuttal to Millettes study?

Also, when can we expect the final report (sorry for my ignorance but I have no idea how long peer review takes).

Thanks.
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Old 1st April 2012, 09:50 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
Random question, I'm a little out of the loop. Has Harrit or Jones or AE911 given a proper rebuttal to Millettes study?

Also, when can we expect the final report (sorry for my ignorance but I have no idea how long peer review takes).

Thanks.
No date yet on the final report, but Jim Millette will release part two of his preliminary report in a week or so I think. Then part three in another month. Topics: trying to ID the red-gray chips and looking more deeply at the iron-rich spheres. Final report due out in several months I think.

Harrit/Jones have no formal reply yet.
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Old 1st April 2012, 10:02 PM   #266
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Oh great I had no idea he was doing two other reports based on identifying the chips and looking into the micro-spheres. Great, looking forward to those! Is this at extra cost? You can always pass around the offering plate if required *(I have a job now so if donations are needed I can chip in this time ).
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Old 2nd April 2012, 12:52 AM   #267
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I'll contribute what I can, but I just bought a house in the most expensive market in Canada. Will need all my spare change for a little while.

Very grateful that others have stepped up to the plate and underwritten this effort.
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Old 2nd April 2012, 06:42 AM   #268
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Jim Millette has not asked for more money but if he does I'll pass the word.
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Old 14th April 2012, 05:48 AM   #269
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Now that Jones has bowed out of the debate entirely, can't he and Co just release the samples to others, or are they still firmly lodged up their kazoos in hopes of coming out as diamonds?
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Old 15th April 2012, 02:45 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Jono View Post
Now that Jones has bowed out of the debate entirely, can't he and Co just release the samples to others, or are they still firmly lodged up their kazoos in hopes of coming out as diamonds?
I wonder how the rest of the rank & file Truth Movement feels about being abandoned by their #1 technical guru on this Island of Arrogant Stupidity known as "thermite, uh thermate, uh thermite, uh nanothermite, uh superthermite, uh super-nanothermite with explosives"?

While he sails off into the sunset, looking for the equally idiotic Island of Free Energy...
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Old 15th April 2012, 04:48 PM   #271
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He's been silenced I tell ya! Just like Dylan Avery! Those evil nwo guys got to them!
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Old 16th April 2012, 04:36 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by tfk View Post
I wonder how the rest of the rank & file Truth Movement feels about being abandoned by their #1 technical guru on this Island of Arrogant Stupidity known as "thermite, uh thermate, uh thermite, uh nanothermite, uh superthermite, uh super-nanothermite with explosives"?

While he sails off into the sunset, looking for the equally idiotic Island of Free Energy...
I'm sorry but I was just reminded by what Jones & Co stated in their "peer-reviewed" paper regarding the active material. Basically, they admitted not to knowing what it was and that their findings differed notably from what they had learned and compared to actual thermitic material... only to conclude that then, therefore, it would have to be a really, really special kind of thermite involved.
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Old 16th April 2012, 04:38 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
He's been silenced I tell ya! Just like Dylan Avery! Those evil nwo guys got to them!
What, has Avery bowed out as well?
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Old 16th April 2012, 07:28 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Jono View Post
Now that Jones has bowed out of the debate entirely, can't he and Co just release the samples to others, or are they still firmly lodged up their kazoos in hopes of coming out as diamonds?
What?

Others like Millette who have no interest in attempting an honest duplication of the Bentham Paper testing?

Jones et al have no monopoly on the WTC dust.

The problem is, the only scientists interested in doing testing, are people like Millette who clearly only wish to maintain the status quo, while at the same time time promote their company by doing a fake comparison study.

MM
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Old 16th April 2012, 07:44 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
What?

Others like Millette who have no interest in attempting an honest duplication of the Bentham Paper testing?

Jones et al have no monopoly on the WTC dust.

The problem is, the only scientists interested in doing testing, are people like Millette who clearly only wish to maintain the status quo, while at the same time time promote their company by doing a fake comparison study.

MM
Kiddo - what you refer to as "the status quo" is what the rest of us call "what actually happened".

All you have left is baseless character assasination. It's tiresome.
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Old 16th April 2012, 12:56 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
What?

Others like Millette who have no interest in attempting an honest duplication of the Bentham Paper testing?

Jones et al have no monopoly on the WTC dust.

The problem is, the only scientists interested in doing testing, are people like Millette who clearly only wish to maintain the status quo, while at the same time time promote their company by doing a fake comparison study.

MM
What? Including the parts where they are incompetent and just made stuff up?
why would you want that?
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Old 16th April 2012, 03:49 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Jono View Post
What, has Avery bowed out as well?
Avery bowed out over a year ago. There are a couple of threads on here discussing it, or if you click on the link in my sig and go to my youtube channel I have a video on it.

Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
What?

Others like Millette who have no interest in attempting an honest duplication of the Bentham Paper testing?

MM
Why don't you get in touch with Jones et al about the FTIR they completed and were to release three years ago, and then we can see who's being dishonest.
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Old 16th April 2012, 10:35 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
What?

Others like Millette who have no interest in attempting an honest duplication of the Bentham Paper testing?
Dishonest how? Btw, what would you consider more sketchy: paying a journal to publish your article or submitting your article for peer-review to have it published for free?
Quote:
Jones et al have no monopoly on the WTC dust.
I thought an issue was that Jones et al wouldn't let others look at the WTC dust samples...which I guess could be considered a monopoly...
Quote:
The problem is, the only scientists interested in doing testing, are people like Millette who clearly only wish to maintain the status quo, while at the same time time promote their company by doing a fake comparison study.

Promote their company to the debunking movement? Can you elaborate on this because so far, it sounds down right stupid, tbh...did I read you wrong, MM?
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Old 17th April 2012, 01:53 AM   #279
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fourtoe, I'm stealing your gif.

Love it.
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Old 17th April 2012, 02:31 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
fourtoe, I'm stealing your gif.

Love it.
I requested it from the South Park gif tumblr especially for these types of situations. I suggest that everyone utilize the wonderful gifs I use, especially:

I for see using this or another similar one in the future because MM isn't very good at responding to specific claims.
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