ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Chris Mohr , james millette , nanothermite , Niels Harrit , richard gage , steven jones , thermite , wtc dust

Reply
Old 19th June 2015, 02:05 PM   #161
ProBonoShill
Master Poster
 
ProBonoShill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,125
Anyone else find it hilarious that Ziggi is cowardly dodging every single post in this thread that thoroughly embarrasses him and instead is focused on attacking Chris.

The use of thermite has been soundly debunked. Anyone still believing that idiocy is on the same level as no-planers.
ProBonoShill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2015, 02:32 PM   #162
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,309
Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Anyone else find it hilarious that Ziggi is cowardly dodging every single post in this thread that thoroughly embarrasses him and instead is focused on attacking Chris.

The use of thermite has been soundly debunked. Anyone still believing that idiocy is on the same level as no-planers.
The part that is most telling is the fact he claims that Jones et al identified elemental Al in "chips"(plural). There is no evidence to support this claim. There is a claim of one chip(singular).

Ziggi will ignore this because his post are based on belief, not data.

I will retract this if he can show support for this obvious exaggeration.

I'm still waiting for him to support his claims to what he said Chris said.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 19th June 2015 at 02:34 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2015, 05:40 PM   #163
Crazy Chainsaw
Illuminator
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,738
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The part that is most telling is the fact he claims that Jones et al identified elemental Al in "chips"(plural). There is no evidence to support this claim. There is a claim of one chip(singular).

Ziggi will ignore this because his post are based on belief, not data.

I will retract this if he can show support for this obvious exaggeration.

I'm still waiting for him to support his claims to what he said Chris said.
The sun will freeze solid, gravity will reverse, and the galaxy will fly apart, before that happens.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2015, 05:52 PM   #164
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
I made some revisions to the video to make sure it is clear what is being said by Jones et al and what I am saying in this video.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 12:04 PM   #165
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,812
By way of analogy let me see if I have this straight.

If I were to walk over a large field and examine any borrows I find and determine that most of them contain field mice or ground squirrels but find one that is occupied by some rabbits, then I could claim the field is populated by rabbits.

The dust chips had one spectra of an unknown location of the sample , of one chip, that shows elemental aluminum. From that Harrit et al claim the dust composition is such that it reflects the presence of thermite in concentrations large enough to take out dozens of large steel columns.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 02:56 PM   #166
Ziggi
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 374
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
I made some revisions to the video to make sure it is clear what is being said by Jones et al and what I am saying in this video.
You have not changed anything let alone corrected anything. Putting what amounts at best to a couple of out of context footnotes changes nothing. Your video was a collection of out of context quotes put next to your claims to make it appear as if Jones and others agree with your claims, and your video is still the exact same collection of out of context quotes put next your claims to make it appear as if they agree with you. You are just setting yourself up for a bigger fall by trying to pull the same stunt again after your behavior/MO has been so clearly outlined in public. It just looks like you either have no idea of what you are doing or that you canīt help yourself.

And by the way thanks for whining to Richard Cage about this confrontation Chris. This gives me a good excuse to bring up your behavior with him and you and others via email. As a bonus Iīll include someone you know, besides Rick, so youīll have the opportunity of having someone defend your behavior, and Iīll have on record the certain inability of your colleague to defend your actions. Theyīll get to see samples of your BS on this forum, your videos, and your emails.

Donīt whine to me, I have given you all kinds of opportunities to avoid this, in private emails and here on this forum - you have brought this on yourself.

Last edited by Ziggi; 20th June 2015 at 02:59 PM.
Ziggi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 03:01 PM   #167
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,309
Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
You have not changed anything let alone corrected anything....
I'm waiting for you to correct your lie that they found elemental Al in multiple chips.

Are you ready to admit they only document one chip that is different then all the others in the study? (unless you're privy to data you'd like to share)

Truth time.............(are you up for it?)
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 20th June 2015 at 03:05 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 03:02 PM   #168
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,803
Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
...
Donīt whine to me, I have given you all kinds of opportunities to avoid this, in private emails and here on this forum - you have brought this on yourself.
Chris won by default, Jones lied about thermite. (jones made up the thermite fantasy)

BTW, the NWO shills take the weekend off; come back Monday, use banker hours...

13 years of solid woo - 911 truth followers continue to step to make failure a top priority.

Chris, take the rest of year off - good job.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 04:30 PM   #169
Ziggi
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 374
Chris Mohr, June 18, 2015:
Quote:
Last year a debunker accused Dr Griscom of having Alzheimer's, and Ziggi is getting his revenge on me by questioning my sanity and my medical condition. So once again, I am finished with him. I actually defended Dr Griscom and did not support those accusations against him...

....As for your personal attack on my "medical condition," that is a low blow and you know it.
Chris Mohr, March 16, 2014:

Quote:
"...I think Frank is actually coming (in part) from a place of concern for the well-being of Dr. Griscom. Since Alzheimer's runs in his family, he may well be hyper-sensitive and hyper-protective. Beyond his putdowns, there is sincere concern there, a concern I had quite independently of anything Frank said."
Quote:
"...Quite independent of all the JREF posts, I was deeply disturbed by Dr Griscom's manner, his repeated inability to remember Harrit's name, etc. I'm really worried that Frank may be right, that some kind of dementia/Alzheimers/senility is creeping in."
So letīs see Chris. I am not allowed to accuse you of lying because that is so rude and I cannot suggest you have memory issues either because that is such a "low blow" that you do not see fit talking to me again. But when it comes to you and your buddy Frank discussing alleged memory issues of a truther, and even giving it nasty labels, both of which you deny you did, that is due to "deep concern" and not a "low blow"

Mod Warning Attacks on non-members of the forum are permitted, attacks on members are not. Please review your membership agreement.
Posted By:Agatha

Last edited by Agatha; 22nd June 2015 at 06:44 AM.
Ziggi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 04:34 PM   #170
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,309
and.............?

Maybe you should compose your thoughts fully before hitting "post".

Any chance you will address the fact you claim chips (plural) when there is no evidence to support this?
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 20th June 2015 at 04:39 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 05:34 PM   #171
Crazy Chainsaw
Illuminator
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,738
Talking

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
and.............?

Maybe you should compose your thoughts fully before hitting "post".

Any chance you will address the fact you claim chips (plural) when there is no evidence to support this?
You know that will happen when pigs fly, carrying elephants holding Kangaroos, yes it is
Possible but not likely.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 05:42 PM   #172
MileHighMadness
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Just Southeast of Hell
Posts: 630
I officially declare the 9/11 Truther Movement dead. I believe Chris' last YouTube video just removed the last shed of credibility it had. No free fall, no thermite...

Ziggi...when you start to call Chris a liar, one of the most honest people on the planet, you have to know you have lost the debate, because your name calling is the sign of a desperate man, a lost movement.

I wish you well, but 9/11 truth was, is and always be the stupidest idea in the history of stupid ideas. Time to grow up and move on with your life.
__________________
“I don’t look forward to heaven, it sounds as boring as hell.” Lord Postsettle

Last edited by MileHighMadness; 20th June 2015 at 05:49 PM.
MileHighMadness is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 06:35 PM   #173
Crazy Chainsaw
Illuminator
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,738
Originally Posted by MileHighMadness View Post
I officially declare the 9/11 Truther Movement dead. I believe Chris' last YouTube video just removed the last shed of credibility it had. No free fall, no thermite...

Ziggi...when you start to call Chris a liar, one of the most honest people on the planet, you have to know you have lost the debate, because your name calling is the sign of a desperate man, a lost movement.

I wish you well, but 9/11 truth was, is and always be the stupidest idea in the history of stupid ideas. Time to grow up and move on with your life.
I declared it dead when people started saying that painted on Areojel thermite could melt
Steel and cause a building to collapse.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 07:05 PM   #174
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
I believe Ziggi quoted a private email about my concerns about Griscom. I remember writing an email like that to Rick which Ziggi may have seen as well. Here's what I said publicly on this forum in April 2014: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=175

Quote:
Hey gang (and I do mean gang),

I started this thread to announce a debate challenge. Since then David Griscom and Rick Shaddock are both getting ganged up on in ways I consider unfair, and certainly off-topic at the very least. Frank, I was worried about Griscom too when I hear the first few minutes of the broadcast. But to state publicly that he has early-stage dementia is over the top. As for Rick, he is my friend and I just don't enjoy seeing him torn apart in these personal, mean-spirited ways. I certainly disagree with his CD theories, but this whole process of trying to drag up links to things just to make him look bad is flat-out inappropriate. What about attacking the idea, not the person? I'm hoping the mods will tone some of this down and slap a few wrists for going sooooo far off-topic. In general, I wish this thread had not become some kind of a way to just tear people down.
I took a lot of flack from my forum buddies here for taking that stand, if any of you care to read the posts that followed. I'm telling the truth about what I said publicly.

I still notice that NO ONE on the 9/11 Truth side has really responded to the content of my video. Much more can be accomplished by debunking the technical claims (if they can) then trying to tear into me.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 07:32 PM   #175
Crazy Chainsaw
Illuminator
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,738
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
I believe Ziggi quoted a private email about my concerns about Griscom. I remember writing an email like that to Rick which Ziggi may have seen as well. Here's what I said publicly on this forum in April 2014: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=175



I took a lot of flack from my forum buddies here for taking that stand, if any of you care to read the posts that followed. I'm telling the truth about what I said publicly.

I still notice that NO ONE on the 9/11 Truth side has really responded to the content of my video. Much more can be accomplished by debunking the technical claims (if they can) then trying to tear into me.
Nonsense needs no debunking,Chrismohr, Lies and hate are all the 9/11 truth movement,
has left. Even Jones has abandoned them.
The replies of Jones and Harrit to Dr. Frank Greening on 9/11 blogger were laughable.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2015, 08:27 PM   #176
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,812
One location on one sample shows elemental Al

True or false, Ziggi?
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 12:48 AM   #177
Notconvinced
Critical Thinker
 
Notconvinced's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 337
>Ironically linking WTC, Flight 11 and 175, with the Pentagon Flight 77, and PA crash of Flight 93, dooms any argument for the inside job delusion.

Not really beach. I can stitch them together quite well. Why did you leave out the NRO event?
Notconvinced is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 01:08 AM   #178
Notconvinced
Critical Thinker
 
Notconvinced's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 337
Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Anyone else find it hilarious that Ziggi is cowardly dodging every single post in this thread that thoroughly embarrasses him and instead is focused on attacking Chris.

The use of thermite has been soundly debunked. Anyone still believing that idiocy is on the same level as no-planers.
Ziggy does sound emotionally invested, but his comments are exact and sound.

I still have to watch video 23, but it was evident watching the first 20 that the information war is still in full swing. How do you folks intend to explain away the inevitable day when progressive collapse is thoroughly and mathematically debunked? Are you just going to engage in full on censorship, DPRK style?

I get that you need to shift focus away from thermite because it might lead to specific corporations who could be held accountable, but what will you do when the entire collapse scenario is shown to be impossible without CD?
Notconvinced is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 01:16 AM   #179
Notconvinced
Critical Thinker
 
Notconvinced's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 337
Chris,

I set out to respond point by point, but I've learned that many have done this already. Perhaps I'll link in a future post.

One question I have right off the bat, how do you explain Flight 175 exceeding the envelope for a standard 767? The specified speed seems to prove the plane was augmented.

Also, why do you discount the DEA thermal imaging data? It may be true that their equipment wasn't calibrated to that range, and therefore wouldn't be admissible in Court, but it shouldn't be negated outright. Not being calibrated in that range mens at best there will be additional percentages of error, but temperatures were undoubtedly close to those recorded by the instrument.
Notconvinced is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 03:19 AM   #180
JSanderO
Master Poster
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,684
Not being an aviation expert... I wonder what you would expect from a plane which exceeds its "envelope"? Do you think it immediately falls to pieces or breaks up? Do you think that once exceeded it can continue flying with the frame losing its integrity? Or do you expect some sort "explosive" appearance immediately upon overstepping its envelope?
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 03:29 AM   #181
Crazy Chainsaw
Illuminator
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,738
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
Chris,

I set out to respond point by point, but I've learned that many have done this already. Perhaps I'll link in a future post.

One question I have right off the bat, how do you explain Flight 175 exceeding the envelope for a standard 767? The specified speed seems to prove the plane was augmented.

Also, why do you discount the DEA thermal imaging data? It may be true that their equipment wasn't calibrated to that range, and therefore wouldn't be admissible in Court, but it shouldn't be negated outright. Not being calibrated in that range mens at best there will be additional percentages of error, but temperatures were undoubtedly close to those recorded by the instrument.
Those temperatures are well within the limit of the natural fuels of the rubble pile.
and the chemical reactions triggered by those fuels.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 03:30 AM   #182
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,222
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
...
I still have to watch video 23 ... How do you folks intend to explain away the inevitable day when progressive collapse is thoroughly and mathematically debunked? ...

I get that you need to shift focus away from thermite ...
Actually, by trying to derail the discussion towards the off-topic of "progressive collapse", it is YOU how tries to shift focus away from thermite.

Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
I set out to respond point by point, but I've learned that many have done this already. Perhaps I'll link in a future post.
Who? Where?
You can post the link, just leave away the http and the www. at the beginning.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 03:32 AM   #183
Crazy Chainsaw
Illuminator
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,738
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
Ziggy does sound emotionally invested, but his comments are exact and sound.

I still have to watch video 23, but it was evident watching the first 20 that the information war is still in full swing. How do you folks intend to explain away the inevitable day when progressive collapse is thoroughly and mathematically debunked? Are you just going to engage in full on censorship, DPRK style?

I get that you need to shift focus away from thermite because it might lead to specific corporations who could be held accountable, but what will you do when the entire collapse scenario is shown to be impossible without CD?
No need to shift anything the truth stands on it's own, no need to cover it up or embellish it
With thermite fairy tales.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 03:45 AM   #184
Crazy Chainsaw
Illuminator
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,738
Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Not being an aviation expert... I wonder what you would expect from a plane which exceeds its "envelope"? Do you think it immediately falls to pieces or breaks up? Do you think that once exceeded it can continue flying with the frame losing its integrity? Or do you expect some sort "explosive" appearance immediately upon overstepping its envelope?
He is saying the air planes engines can not achieve that speed, however that is untrue,
Especially in an all out controlled crash.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 04:14 AM   #185
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,283
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
One question I have right off the bat, how do you explain Flight 175 exceeding the envelope for a standard 767? The specified speed seems to prove the plane was augmented.
Brilliant plan! 'Augment' the plane with a beefed-up airframe so it can pointlessly 'exceed the envelope', thus drawing attention to its rogue behaviour. Why not just stay within the envelope and avoid raising any eyebrows and involving some serious modifications that would require huge engineering input?

Basically, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Last edited by GlennB; 21st June 2015 at 04:16 AM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 04:29 AM   #186
MileHighMadness
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Just Southeast of Hell
Posts: 630
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
I still have to watch video 23, but it was evident watching the first 20 that the information war is still in full swing. How do you folks intend to explain away the inevitable day when progressive collapse is thoroughly and mathematically debunked? Are you just going to engage in full on censorship, DPRK style?
That’s mindless, stupid Truther B.S. All three buildings follow the laws of physics for a progressive collapse, no CD required. Once you get a local failure, then gravity takes over, and there is too much energy/mass in the structural system to stop it.
__________________
“I don’t look forward to heaven, it sounds as boring as hell.” Lord Postsettle
MileHighMadness is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 06:25 AM   #187
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 25,106
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
How do you folks intend to explain away the inevitable day when progressive collapse is thoroughly and mathematically debunked? Are you just going to engage in full on censorship, DPRK style?
Since progressive collapse is currently thoroughly and mathematically proven to be inevitable given that collapse was initiated, I think we can choose to deal with that day, in the unlikely event that it ever comes, when it gets here. I think censorship isn't that likely; suppression of dissenting views is what the truther side does, at least on discussion forums. Congratulations on coming up with the North Korea variant on Godwin's Law, though. Groundless accusations against your opponents are always a good sign that you haven't got anything better to offer.

By the way, you should think about changing your username. You sound awfully convinced to me.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 06:29 AM   #188
chrismohr
Master Poster
 
chrismohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,080
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
Chris,

I set out to respond point by point, but I've learned that many have done this already. Perhaps I'll link in a future post.

One question I have right off the bat, how do you explain Flight 175 exceeding the envelope for a standard 767? The specified speed seems to prove the plane was augmented.

Also, why do you discount the DEA thermal imaging data? It may be true that their equipment wasn't calibrated to that range, and therefore wouldn't be admissible in Court, but it shouldn't be negated outright. Not being calibrated in that range mens at best there will be additional percentages of error, but temperatures were undoubtedly close to those recorded by the instrument.
I'm going by memory here, but once an instrument is out of its range, you can't rely on it. An extreme example is my outdoor thermometer, which ends at 120 degrees. I can't use it on a Death Valley summer day with any accuracy. I don't know exactly how the DEA temperature measuring devices worked, but they were definitely out of their range and incapable of accurately measuring very high temperatures.
I have not researched the planes and their capacities etc, because I am rebutting Richard Gage, who agrees that four planes crashed that day.
If you guys are ever proven right I'll buy you each a beer and we'll watch the treason trials together. Until then, I believe that peace activists can better serve their cause by putting their energies into opposing real injustices in our world. If your beliefs are proven real, of course I will actively support your efforts.
Best wishes to us all.
__________________
20 videos rebutting Blueprint for Truth YouTube keyword chrismohr911 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC3JgWkNNIQ
Playlists http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
and http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=viewall
WTC Dust study http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/911...12webHiRes.pdf Hundreds more links and info both sides: http:www.chrismohr911.com
chrismohr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 06:48 AM   #189
Pinch
Critical Thinker
 
Pinch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 380
Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Not being an aviation expert... I wonder what you would expect from a plane which exceeds its "envelope"? Do you think it immediately falls to pieces or breaks up? Do you think that once exceeded it can continue flying with the frame losing its integrity? Or do you expect some sort "explosive" appearance immediately upon overstepping its envelope?
I would not expect much from an aircraft exceeding its "envelope", especially at the lower end of a scale, especially for airliners. The safety factors built into them are huge, given that their design and intent is to carry human beings over vast distances at high altiudes and high speeds.

Safety is paramount, however, when aircraft are subjected to flight tests and flight regimes outside of their 'envelope". Aircraft do not promptly come apart when entering a flight regime outside of its "envelope", but they start to compromise the "advertised" life of the airframe, when those limits are exceeded.

The following came from an article on Concorde:

"To establish those limits, the aircraft has been flown to well beyond those limits in a carefully controlled manner. Concorde has an MMO of 2.04, but the certification aircraft went up to M 2.23. For those who know the Concorde story: it was one of the reasons the two cerification aircraft (201 and 202) never went into service in the end. It was extremely difficult to assess how much of the aircraft's "life" (in terms of fatigue cycles) had been used up by the certification flights to the edges of the envelope."

"Capt" Bob Balsamo, the leader of the Pilots for 9/11 "Truth" group, has claimed in the past that "When an aircraft hits its "design limits" it breaks. Period". There is so much wrong with that statement it goes beyond funny and straight into sad. Design limits does not equate to structural limits. You would think a supposed aviation professional would understand that difference, but apparently not.
__________________
"There's this thing about being so "open minded" your brain falls out". --Unknown
Pinch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 08:00 AM   #190
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,259
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
what will you do when the entire collapse scenario is shown to be impossible without CD?
It has yet to be shown that it's possible with CD.
__________________
Ask questions. Demand answers. But be prepared to accept the answers, or don't ask questions in the first place.
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 08:27 AM   #191
JSanderO
Master Poster
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 2,684
Originally Posted by Pinch View Post
I would not expect much from an aircraft exceeding its "envelope", especially at the lower end of a scale, especially for airliners. The safety factors built into them are huge, given that their design and intent is to carry human beings over vast distances at high altiudes and high speeds.

Safety is paramount, however, when aircraft are subjected to flight tests and flight regimes outside of their 'envelope". Aircraft do not promptly come apart when entering a flight regime outside of its "envelope", but they start to compromise the "advertised" life of the airframe, when those limits are exceeded.

The following came from an article on Concorde:

"To establish those limits, the aircraft has been flown to well beyond those limits in a carefully controlled manner. Concorde has an MMO of 2.04, but the certification aircraft went up to M 2.23. For those who know the Concorde story: it was one of the reasons the two cerification aircraft (201 and 202) never went into service in the end. It was extremely difficult to assess how much of the aircraft's "life" (in terms of fatigue cycles) had been used up by the certification flights to the edges of the envelope."

"Capt" Bob Balsamo, the leader of the Pilots for 9/11 "Truth" group, has claimed in the past that "When an aircraft hits its "design limits" it breaks. Period". There is so much wrong with that statement it goes beyond funny and straight into sad. Design limits does not equate to structural limits. You would think a supposed aviation professional would understand that difference, but apparently not.
This is probably analogous to design strength and ultimate yield strength... the later being significantly greater and hence a sort of safety margin. You don't design structure at the ultimate yield strength... nor fly airplanes at the conditions where they break apart.
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 08:27 AM   #192
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,803
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
>Ironically linking WTC, Flight 11 and 175, with the Pentagon Flight 77, and PA crash of Flight 93, dooms any argument for the inside job delusion.

Not really beach. I can stitch them together quite well. Why did you leave out the NRO event?
Start a thread, 911 truth can't do more than present BS, nonsense and fantasy. 911 truth thinks a 767 breaks up at 590 mph, a speed 10 mph over where the 767 was designed to be flutter free. Did 911 truth do research, no 911 truth cult members googled up BS and adopted lies and fantasy. 13 years of BS from 911 truth, not a single piece of evidence, as 911 truth lies and claims overwhelming evidence. What a failed movement.

Most of a planes flight envelope is designed for being at the limit, and have excess strength when exceeded by accident, the plane can be brought back and protect those flying on the plane. The 767 was designed to 1.2Vd flutter free; Vd is 420 knots, making 1.2Vd = 580 mph, thus a possible speed a 767 could reach and recover from, ensuring our safety if a 767 is upset in flight. Good news for all, the claim of impossible speed is a BIG LIE, based on zero knowledge of aerodynamics and flying. Over 1.2Vd for seconds, and 175 hits the WTC - and to make the claim 175 can't, is so far out being a fantasy because 175 was tracked from takeoff to impact by Radar; thus it was 175 we saw on video close to 1.2Vd, a design speed Boeing used to make the plane safe; what MACH was 175 at?

Here we are in a thread and you can't get on topic; Chris won using logic, research, reason and being so darn nice to you who mock the murder of thousands with really dirt dumb claims; like the plane stuff you never looked up, or asked an aero engineer; ever take an aero class?

Get on topic; Chris wins again, thermite was a failed fantasy lie, even if Chris makes errors debating the thermite delusion, he still wins. This is cool, Chris can't do anything but win.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 21st June 2015 at 08:41 AM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 09:08 AM   #193
ProBonoShill
Master Poster
 
ProBonoShill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,125
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
Ziggy does sound emotionally invested, but his comments are exact and sound.

I still have to watch video 23, but it was evident watching the first 20 that the information war is still in full swing. How do you folks intend to explain away the inevitable day when progressive collapse is thoroughly and mathematically debunked? Are you just going to engage in full on censorship, DPRK style?

I get that you need to shift focus away from thermite because it might lead to specific corporations who could be held accountable, but what will you do when the entire collapse scenario is shown to be impossible without CD?
It seems you duffer from the same malady as many other truthers, that being the ability to focus on what people say in their posts and staying on topic.

I pointed out Ziggi is ignoring several posts in this thread and it's clear to anyone with basic cognitive function why he is doing so. How about you focus on that, instead of some off topic nonsense.Better yet why don't you address all the posts he's dodging.

Who is shifting focus away from thermite? We're here in this thread discussing how the use of thermite on 9/11 is completely moronic. You don't actually believe that idiocy do you?
ProBonoShill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 12:03 PM   #194
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,812
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
need to shift focus away from thermite..
Quote:
How do you folks intend to explain away the inevitable day when progressive collapse is thoroughly and mathematically debunked? Are you just going to engage in full on censorship, DPRK style?
Thermite?
Actually full on 'party line" censorship is the pervue of sites such as "Pilots for 911 Truth".
Quote:
but what will you do when the entire collapse scenario is shown to be impossible without CD?
Thermite?
Flip side is that progrssive collapse has been determined and accepted by all major professional organizations including the ASCE and the CTBUH. Oddly, despite this basically demonstrating that collapse progressed quite naturally after the initial failures, you still cling to the faint hope that somthing else happened.

However, letting your premise stand, when will this definitive mathematical description that proves CD must be involved be coming forth? Will we wait another decade and a half?, perhaps 20, 30 ,,,,75 years? Got an estimate?

Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
One question I have right off the bat, how do you explain Flight 175 exceeding the envelope for a standard 767? The specified speed seems to prove the plane was augmented.
Thermite?

There are multiple instances of aircraft experiencing flights well outside their flight envelope and either surviving to land or holding together for some time while the pilots fought the controls. I can link you to a discussion of this if you wish. Several actual heavy aircraft pilots involved.

Quote:
Also, why do you discount the DEA thermal imaging data? It may be true that their equipment wasn't calibrated to that range, and therefore wouldn't be admissible in Court, but it shouldn't be negated outright. Not being calibrated in that range mens at best there will be additional percentages of error, but temperatures were undoubtedly close to those recorded by the instrument.
Tries to be thermite but fails abjectly. Like the 120 degree thermometer, at the upper limit of a device one can only determine that the parameter being measured was at or above that limit. Attempting to paste a much greater value on the reading is mere fantasy.
I note that in Canada, wood stove chimneys are rated to be able to withstanbd 1000oC without burn through. That is strictly wood fuel flue temps during a chimney fire. Point a thermal imaging device with a upper reading limit of 500C at a chimney and see the upper limit of the device on the reading. Would you conclude that the temps reached ARE 1000C?

Last edited by jaydeehess; 21st June 2015 at 12:25 PM.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 12:22 PM   #195
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,812
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post

There are multiple instances of aircraft experiencing flights well outside their flight envelope and either surviving to land or holding together for some time while the pilots fought the controls. I can link you to a discussion of this if you wish. Several actual heavy aircraft pilots involved.
.
https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-th...of-9-11.t3359/
https://www.metabunk.org/easyjet-737...m-video.t3160/
NC is invited to start another thread on the topic after having read through the above and other threads on the subject on ISF.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 12:35 PM   #196
Ziggi
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 374
Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
I believe Ziggi quoted a private email about my concerns about Griscom. I remember writing an email like that to Rick which Ziggi may have seen as well. Here's what I said publicly on this forum in April 2014: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=175



I took a lot of flack from my forum buddies here for taking that stand, if any of you care to read the posts that followed. I'm telling the truth about what I said publicly.

I still notice that NO ONE on the 9/11 Truth side has really responded to the content of my video. Much more can be accomplished by debunking the technical claims (if they can) then trying to tear into me.
Oh wow Chris, your memory came back. Itīs a miracle! Oh no wait, this time you only remember having actually accused a truther of a serious mental illness, but now you canīt remember anyone having responded to technical claims made in your video, hardly hours after pretending to make changes to your video because of my initial response to technical claims in your video.

By the way, you claim to be so offended by questions about your memory that you cannot respond to me..did you stop talking to either Frank or yourself after you two accused Griscom of having Alzheimers?

PS Itīs amuzing to see your buds reverting to the good old std MO of flooding a thread with BS comments to divert attention and bury the ****. Always impressive.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for a breach of rule 10. Do not attempt to bypass the autocensor by disguising swear words; type them out in full using the correct spelling and let the autocensor hide them.

Last edited by Agatha; 22nd June 2015 at 06:25 AM.
Ziggi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 12:42 PM   #197
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,812
Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
Oh wow Chris, your memory came back. Itīs a miracle! Oh no wait, this time you only remember having actually accused a truther of a serious mental illness, but now you canīt remember anyone having responded to technical claims made in your video, hardly hours after pretending to make changes to your video because of my initial response to technical claims in your video.

By the way, you claim to be so offended by questions about your memory that you cannot respond to me..did you stop talking to either Frank or yourself after you two accused Griscom of having Alzheimers?

PS Itīs amuzing to see your buds reverting to the good old std MO of flooding a thread with BS comments to divert attention and bury the ****. Always impressive.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to properly mask swearing.
You referring to the replies to "NotConvinced". Its almost as if the thread contains dicussions you are not the originator of, or are of topics other than those you want to persue.

Perasonally I am not particularily interested in discussing who posted what ad homs or when or in response to what or what does and does not constitute an ad hom. At least not in this thread.
Go figure!

In fact in post 176 I asked YOU specifically, and I'm actually repeating the question that has been asked of you several times:
Quote:
One location on one sample shows elemental Al

True or false, Ziggi?
If its false, if elemental aluminum was found in all or most of the chips then please refer to the parts of the paper that illustrate this. NOTE I am not asking you to again repeat the conclusions of the authors. I am asking for the relevant parts of the paper that actually discuss the data from whence such a conclusion could be reached.

Last edited by Agatha; 22nd June 2015 at 06:26 AM.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 12:46 PM   #198
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,309
Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
PS Itīs amuzing to see your buds reverting to the good old std MO of flooding a thread with BS comments to divert attention and bury the ****. Always impressive.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to properly mask swearing.

So..........how many chips did your heroes document elemental Al in? Are you claiming one, not matching the others is BS?

Come on Ziggi.............put us BSer's in our place.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by Agatha; 22nd June 2015 at 06:26 AM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 01:12 PM   #199
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,803
where is the Pulitzer

Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
Oh wow Chris, your memory came back. Itīs a miracle! Oh no wait, this time you only remember having actually accused a truther of a serious mental illness,...
Truther, that guy spreads lies about 911, and has no evidence. Does he have problems with reality?

http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/200...assengers.html
Wow, are his claims consistant with a rational person? And Chris actually was nice and did not say the "truther's" idiotic claims were more than failed claims, aka BS.

Sad fact is 911 truth does no research, so pointing to the pile of BS by the "truther" in question, does no good when it lands in 911 truth fantasyland.

http://www.drivehq.com/folder/p1720199/03889269.aspx

Quote:
Pennsylvania crash site saw only a modest sized hole in
the ground, some burned trees, and a small amount of shredded metal – but no bodies, blood, baggage, or identifiable airplane parts:
Your truther friends lie, make up fantasy. The hole was exactly the size of a 757; oops. The DNA for all on board was found at the crash site, oops, someone lied about no bodies, blood, and baggage. It was all there, destroyed by a kinetic energy impact.

Chris won, he is too nice to the movement which mocks the murder of thousands with insane claims, lies and the dumbest fantasy of thermite.

Chris does research, you support a liar who makes up claims so insane and stupid people suspect he is insane.

Quote:
The official NTSB report on UA-93 consisted only of communications between the pilot and air traffic controllers; it excluded its radar ground track (why?).
Here is the "truther" with another lie. NTSB has the radar ground track for 93, and 911 truth super "truther" lies about it.

Quote:
In my “all passengers survive” hypothesis, it is easily surmised that AA-11 with its transponder turned off could have landed safely at Griffiss AFB after having been replaced over Amsterdam, NY, by a transponder-less drone attacker out of Griffiss. But because this possibility was almost too obvious, I believe that the conspirators added several levels of contra-Occam’s Razor complications to the choreography of AU-175. http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/...D761684138?1=1
Mocking the murdered of 911 with dumbed down "hypothesis". What a great movement.

Chris won before he started, since Jones made up thermite as the cause of the WTC collapse without evidence four years after 911. Why did Jones make up the thermite scam? Your "truther" might not be insane, or have mental issues, but his claims are insane.

Reference the paper and show proof of Al which would be available for the super thermite fantasy. Gee, you failed to realize nano particles have been used for pigment. Why do you have no useful evidence, as we constantly correct the failed claims you present. If you had evidence for the silly fantasy termite inside job scam, you could team with a newspaper for the biggest Pulitzer since Watergate. Where is the Pulitzer? Did the newspapers laugh, or what.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 21st June 2015 at 01:17 PM. Reason: much more and Chris should get a Pulitzer for being too nice to failed 911 truth pushers of woo
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2015, 01:19 PM   #200
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,812
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/200...assengers.html
Wow, are his claims consistant with a rational person? And Chris actually was nice .
No, the claims on that page are not those of a rational person. It is absolutely nothing more than a fiction, with no actual evidence to support it. Neither is it on topic re:thermite, and remember, Ziggi calls BS on any post here that detracts from thermite.(Excepting those he authors of course)
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:43 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Đ 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.