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Tags Florida incidents , Kiera Wilmot , school incidents , zero tolerance policies

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Old 9th May 2013, 08:03 PM   #401
Prometheus
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
Okay.

No school on Earth that I am aware of has dispensed completely with all punishments other than expulsion. It's not strong evidence... well, actually, now I think about it, it's pretty damned strong evidence that behaviour modification strategies other than expulsion actually work.
Well then what's the problem? If schools strategies are all working fine, then why do you want to change them?

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
So until you come up with something else, namely some really strong evidence that every school on Earth is doing it wrong, it'll do for me.
You wouldn't by any chance happen to own a straw baling machine, would you? It's getting a bit messy around here.

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
The "I was soooo tough as a kid, so I'm going to be soooo tough on these kids now" routine is beloved of frightened conservatives, but I think it's a routine that only works on just that sort of frightened conservative. If you're not that scared of kids popping the tops off bottles, you don't need to pretend to have been hardcore in the past to justify extreme authoritarianism now.
What are you on about? Where in this thread have I said anything at all about what I was like in the past? Or what I'm like now, for that matter? Are you seriously so frightened of attempting to mount a real argument or present any evidence at all that this sort of lame trolling is the best you can do? I'm a bit disheartened, here. I've seen you mount far better arguments in other threads. Are you even trying?
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Old 10th May 2013, 04:58 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
<snip>

Personal experience; most of the kids I went to school with wouldn't give a hoot about detention or suspension. It's not strong evidence, but until you come up with something else, it'll do for me.

<snip>

Okay.

My personal experience is entirely different from yours. Just a call to parents from a teacher was enough to scare the bejesus out of most kids. A detention would be matched at home by being grounded. A suspension? Grounded "for life".

Expulsions tended to inspire parents to start checking out military academies.

All of the kids I knew would "give a hoot" about any of those outcomes.

My "evidence" is just as strong as yours. Do they cancel each other out?
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Old 10th May 2013, 11:50 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Yes. The whole situation indicates that she did it knowing what would happen...
I think she knew in the theoretical sense what would happen. I suppose she wanted to experience it first-hand. (Don't we all?)

Recently
Quote:
Also in her corner is college science professor Roderic Brame. Brame has known Kiera for years and tutored her in science. He describes her as a bright and curious girl and he's hoping this bottle blow-up doesn't blow her future.

"Maybe cooler heads will prevail-so that's my hope in all of this. Kids did all kinds of stuff like that when I was a kid," said Brame.
Link
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Old 10th May 2013, 08:11 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Okay.

My personal experience is entirely different from yours. Just a call to parents from a teacher was enough to scare the bejesus out of most kids. A detention would be matched at home by being grounded. A suspension? Grounded "for life".

Expulsions tended to inspire parents to start checking out military academies.

All of the kids I knew would "give a hoot" about any of those outcomes.

My "evidence" is just as strong as yours. Do they cancel each other out?
Yes, they cancel each other out. Since mine supports the status quo, however, we'll need something stronger on your end in order to make a change.
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Old 10th May 2013, 09:55 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by superfreddy View Post
This reminds me of the time when I was in 10th grade, I wanted to make a cool demonstration to my friends at the school lab. I poured glycerin on a mixture of sulfuric acid and nitric acid, at room temperature (about 30C). Awesome dangerous stuff. I got off easy - my teacher told me not to do it again.
I am very glad you did not know the full/proper procedure!!!
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Old 10th May 2013, 10:10 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
How about "A device containing explosive materials which is made with the specific intent of detonating those explosive materials by ignition, electical charge, mechanical shock, chemical reaction, or other method"? For a list of explosive materials, refer to the Federal Listed Explosives.
Intent has no bearing on whether it is a bomb or not. Intent is hard to prove so, it should be part of the definition of any kind of device. But, it might rightly be in the law(s) concerning the use of such a device.

Also, the list should not be a limitation as new explosive formulas continue to be produced - that is also why I do not think laws on illegal drugs should be required to give a formula for the drug - they should be based purely on the effects caused by the chemical ingested - ingestion including intake through any bodily orifice -permanent or temporary, natural or mechanically produced or by absorption or adsorption through/on body tissues.
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Old 10th May 2013, 11:33 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Intent has no bearing on whether it is a bomb or not. Intent is hard to prove so, it should be part of the definition of any kind of device. But, it might rightly be in the law(s) concerning the use of such a device.
The intent is determined by the construction of the device. It doesn't mean, the person constructing the device intends to detonate it, but rather, from the construction of the device it can be determined that the primary reason for constructing it in that way is to detonate it. There may be reasons (I can't think of too many off hand, but I am sure there are a few such as a Nitro-glycerine spray bottle) where explosive materials are included in a device, but aren't there to explode.

Quote:
Also, the list should not be a limitation as new explosive formulas continue to be produced - that is also why I do not think laws on illegal drugs should be required to give a formula for the drug - they should be based purely on the effects caused by the chemical ingested - ingestion including intake through any bodily orifice -permanent or temporary, natural or mechanically produced or by absorption or adsorption through/on body tissues.
Defining an explosive material isn't as easy as we'd like, and the list is updated regularly. One could perhaps say instead "any chemical that rapidly oxidises into a gas in a such a way as to create an outwardly travelling destructive shockwave." Would that be better?
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Old 11th May 2013, 09:58 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Yes, they cancel each other out. Since mine supports the status quo, however, we'll need something stronger on your end in order to make a change.

Where the heck are you getting that from? This whole kerfuffle is about many if not most people being stunned and generally disapproving of the extreme and irrational way the girl has been treated.

A reaction almost entirely resulting from the fact that such treatment is anything but the normal state of affairs (i.e.- status quo)

Nope. You're gonna have to do better than that.
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Old 11th May 2013, 07:07 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Where the heck are you getting that from? This whole kerfuffle is about many if not most people being stunned and generally disapproving of the extreme and irrational way the girl has been treated.

A reaction almost entirely resulting from the fact that such treatment is anything but the normal state of affairs (i.e.- status quo)

Nope. You're gonna have to do better than that.
I am referring to the school's code of conduct and the prescribed punishment. I agree with everyone else about the ridiculous adult felony charges, though my understanding is that that has not actually materialized yet, if at all.
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Old 11th May 2013, 07:30 PM   #410
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BTW==I dropped one of those bottlesw of water--it was 1/2 full, and the lid was on tight
when it hit the ground, guess what-the lid popped off. Once the safety seal is broken on those bottles, they won't hold diddly-poo pressure...
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Old 12th May 2013, 04:59 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
BTW==I dropped one of those bottlesw of water--it was 1/2 full, and the lid was on tight
when it hit the ground, guess what-the lid popped off. Once the safety seal is broken on those bottles, they won't hold diddly-poo pressure...

Terrorist!!!
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Old 14th May 2013, 08:05 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Terrorist!!!

Quote:
Kiera Wilmot is a petite 16-year-old who plays cello in her high school orchestra, wants to study robotics in college and, since last month, worries her school views her as a "terrorist."
There is some good news. Finally.

Quote:
Her attorney thinks Kiera's case will be resolved this week, without felony charges, and that she will be allowed to return to Bartow High next school year. She is now at a Polk alternative school, where she was sent after serving her 10-day suspension.
The above is an Orlando (FL) newspaper story. Link

Kiera Wilmot's attorney Larry Hardaway says
Quote:
school counselors have met with her and are working to give her a "better view" of what's happened.
What does that mean I wonder?
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Old 14th May 2013, 08:20 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Yes. Especially dihydrogen monoxide. That stuff should be banned!
Don't pour it in the acid anyway.
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Old 14th May 2013, 08:40 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
Don't pour it in the acid anyway.
Hmmm.

I wonder what would happen if you had two misters, one with water and one with acid, and your sprayed them into the same volume?
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Old 14th May 2013, 09:13 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I had heard that she was expelled because she was facing felony charges because the police officerv at the school arrested her and charged her that way. So dumb cop and dumb laws maybe but no choice from the schools point of view.
Just following orders.
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Old 14th May 2013, 09:24 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Yes. That was a joke. The fact is that neither one of us has presented any useful evidence.
Also, shouldn't there be some kind of presumption that expelling children is a drastic measure which should only be taken with good reason? You seem red hot on seeing children expelled, despite the fact that by your own admission you have no sane reason whatsoever to think that this is the only effective course of action.[/quote]

Red hot on seeing children expelled? No. I much prefer seeing children behave safely. And the highlighted part is wildly overstated. I do have a sane reason to think that it is an effective course of action. Personal experience; most of the kids I went to school with wouldn't give a hoot about detention or suspension. It's not strong evidence, but until you come up with something else, it'll do for me. I am most certainly open to the possibility that there are others. Whenever you get around to posting some evidence to that effect we can advance beyond this impasse.

Trying to flip the burden of proof is prima facie evidence that you've got nothing to base your view on

You are the one who is arguing for a change in the school's policy. The burden of proof rests squarely on you. Provided the DA does not actually go ahead and charge her as an adult--which I agree is ludicrous--I am satisfied that the policy in place resulted in a reasonable outcome (this time).



How you guess that I am bragging or trying to be some kind of tough guy is beyond me. I have not made a single statement about what I was personally like as a child. I don't currently believe that punishment less than expulsion for this sort of behavior would do enough to prevent it. I am quite open to the possibility that I am wrong. Evidence?

I think what's happening to this girl sucks. But it's her own fault. She should have experimented at home. Or asked an adult if she could do it at school.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Well then what's the problem? If schools strategies are all working fine, then why do you want to change them?



You wouldn't by any chance happen to own a straw baling machine, would you? It's getting a bit messy around here.


What are you on about? Where in this thread have I said anything at all about what I was like in the past? Or what I'm like now, for that matter? Are you seriously so frightened of attempting to mount a real argument or present any evidence at all that this sort of lame trolling is the best you can do? I'm a bit disheartened, here. I've seen you mount far better arguments in other threads. Are you even trying?[/quote]

The hilited answers the underlined question.

Last edited by tsig; 14th May 2013 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 14th May 2013, 09:25 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
There is some good news. Finally.



The above is an Orlando (FL) newspaper story. Link

Kiera Wilmot's attorney Larry Hardaway says


What does that mean I wonder?
All good news. As to the bolded, I think that is counselor talk for helping her to understand while all the adults around her simultaneously lost all appearance of a functioning brain. That can be traumatizing to the youts.
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Old 14th May 2013, 09:36 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I had heard that she was expelled because she was facing felony charges because the police officerv at the school arrested her and charged her that way. So dumb cop and dumb laws maybe but no choice from the schools point of view.
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Just following orders.
The message you quote is from about five days ago. The school -- or at least assistant principal Dan Durham -- was the one who summoned police. It was the county's state attorney, not the police officer, who decided what charges were to be filed.

Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The assistant principal Dan Durham did call the police. It was 7 00 AM and I don't think the 'resource officer' was on-duty at the school yet. Anyway, below is the quote from the arrest report -- from a message previously posted here -- where the officer states he was, apparently on patrol, received the call from the 911 dispatcher and went to the school:
Police report Link
One thought -We don't know the dynamics within the school staff. I would be surprised if all the staff agreed that Durham -- who is listed as "Assistant Principal of Discipline" -- handled the incident properly. For one thing, the school principal has defended the student publicly, praising her as a "good student" who had "never been in trouble" before this incident. To my knowledge he has never publicly tried to either justify the actions taken or to defend them. Conversely, despite numerous media requests to Dan Durham asking him to comment, to my knowledge he has never spoken publicly.

Who knows? Maybe Dan Durham is a well-respected educator who erred on the side of caution in this incident. Possibly he's known among the staff as a bone head who recklessly escalated a minor incident causing the student a lot of stress and embarrassing the school.

We don't know.
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Old 14th May 2013, 09:49 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
All good news. As to the bolded, I think that is counselor talk for helping her to understand while all the adults around her simultaneously lost all appearance of a functioning brain. That can be traumatizing to the youts.
I hope you (and Kiera Wilmot's attorney) are right.

If the felony charges -- actually any criminal charges -- are dropped and she is allowed to return to her regular high school next Fall, given the resiliency of youth, this matter may soon recede into a dim memory for her.

But twenty years from now...what a story she'll have to tell!
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Old 14th May 2013, 04:06 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
The hilited answers the underlined question.
Try reading both again.
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Old 15th May 2013, 08:56 PM   #421
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Holy Hannah!

Kiera Wilmot is free, criminal charges have been dropped.

Quote:
"Based upon the facts and circumstances of the case, the lack of criminal history of the child involved, and the action taken by the Polk County School Board, the State Attorney's Office extended an offer of diversion of prosecution to the child," Hill said in the statement. "The child and her guardian signed the agreement to successfully complete the Department of Juvenile Justice Diversion Program."

Details about the program aren't public record because Kiera is a juvenile.
Link

This was reported on Huffington Post a few hours ago. Unfortunately, it was under the headline:

Kiera Wilmot Will Not Be Charged For Explosion At Florida School
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Old 15th May 2013, 09:01 PM   #422
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Hopefully the diversion program will carefully explain to the young adult that you don't bring explosive devices to school, to say nothing of setting them off on the lawn before class.
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Old 15th May 2013, 09:03 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Holy Hannah!

Kiera Wilmot is free, criminal charges have been dropped.

Link

This was reported on Huffington Post a few hours ago. Unfortunately, it was under the headline:

Kiera Wilmot Will Not Be Charged For Explosion At Florida School
Getting diversion isn't exactly having the charges dropped, it's closer to a warning where you are released without any need for a trial and conviction. You did it, but because of circumstances you won't be prosecuted, this time.

Still, good to see that saner heads have prevailed.
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Old 15th May 2013, 10:03 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Getting diversion isn't exactly having the charges dropped...
I think it means the charges have "been dismissed."

Quote:
Polk County State Attorney Jerry Hill wrote in a statement that the case against 16-year-old Kiera Wilmot has been dismissed, but that she must complete a diversion program.
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Old 16th May 2013, 02:49 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Hmmm.

I wonder what would happen if you had two misters, one with water and one with acid, and your sprayed them into the same volume?
Depending on the acid, they would mix and some heat would possibly be produced - Strong dissociation (thus a strong acid) in water gives up energy - almost entirely heat - so acid + H20 give diluted acid and heat. Gives you two ways to get burned!!
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Old 16th May 2013, 05:21 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Getting diversion isn't exactly having the charges dropped, it's closer to a warning where you are released without any need for a trial and conviction. You did it, but because of circumstances you won't be prosecuted, this time.

Still, good to see that saner heads have prevailed.
It depends, diversion usually means there is still court involvement and the charges have not been dropped or dismissed. In our district (and not for this, my guess was posted upstream, that she would have been suspended for a couple of days) the diversion if from the court, not from the school. And this is the general rule in most of the areas i am aware. diversion is court mandated actions that must be followed to have charges later dropped or dismissed. They call it 'station report' for school incidents where a student has to meet the SRO at the station or 'court supervision' if it is under the direction directly of the judge.

The main point being that you have to to satisfy the court that you have followed the mandated course of action and then the judge dismisses or drops the charges.

(As stated before, this would not have happened in my district, usually court is reserved for aggravated battery, major theft and/or gang actions involving felony charges. Now if staff are involved they can demand expulsion for students hitting them)
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Old 16th May 2013, 05:22 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I think it means the charges have "been dismissed."
And if she does not follow the program, it may be that they are reinstated, Hard to say as I don't know FL law.
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Old 16th May 2013, 06:56 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
It depends, diversion usually means there is still court involvement and the charges have not been dropped or dismissed. ...
I don't understand why are people questioning this when the Polk County State Attorney's office has already stated twice now that the charges have "been dismissed?"

Quote:
Brian Haas, an assistant state attorney and spokesman for the office, said..."The pending case has been dismissed. No formal charges will be filed," read the office's statement.
Read and learn.
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Old 16th May 2013, 07:19 AM   #429
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Excellent.
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Old 16th May 2013, 04:16 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I don't understand why are people questioning this when the Polk County State Attorney's office has already stated twice now that the charges have "been dismissed?"

Read and learn.
The charges were dismissed because she "complete(d) a diversion program" which means that she had to do some form of program (which might have been nothing more than watching a safety video) and when satisfied the Judge dismissed the charges. It's different to having the charges dropped, thoughj in the end it has the same outcome, nothing on your record. Over here you can generally only get Diversion once.
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Old 16th May 2013, 08:05 PM   #431
newyorkguy
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The charges were dismissed because she "complete(d) a diversion program" which means that she had to do some form of program (which might have been nothing more than watching a safety video) and when satisfied the Judge dismissed the charges. It's different to having the charges dropped, thoughj in the end it has the same outcome, nothing on your record. Over here you can generally only get Diversion once.
I don't understand why you think it's necessary to "interpret" a fairly straightforward news story.

The charges were dismissed because she "complete(d) a diversion program..
Quote:
The office of State Attorney Jerry Hill, whose jurisdiction includes Polk, said that it extended "an offer of diversion of prosecution to the child." Brian Haas, an assistant state attorney and spokesman for the office, said he could not provide details of the diversion-program agreement reached in a juvenile's case. But he said the teenager and her guardian had signed the agreement. "The pending case has been dismissed. No formal charges will be filed," read the office's statement.
Within the past day or two the State Attorney offered a diversion alternative. Kiera Wilmot and her guardian signed it. She almost certainly hasn't completed her part of the agreement but the pending case has been dismissed..
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Old 16th May 2013, 08:09 PM   #432
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Quote:
No formal charges will be filed," read the office's statement.
The case has been dismissed. Not the charges. The charges originally recommended by the State Attorney's office were -- taking the above statement at face value -- never filed in the first place.
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Old 17th May 2013, 04:04 AM   #433
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I don't understand why you think it's necessary to "interpret" a fairly straightforward news story.
It has nothing to do with "interpreting" things. we were discussing what diversion means and requires, something your own quotes are backing up, that the charges/case was dismissed, not dropped, and that she is required to complete (or has completed) a diversion program. I have no idea why you are getting so upset and trying to pick a fight over this.
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Old 17th May 2013, 06:36 AM   #434
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Now it looks like Kiera and her sister will be going to Space Academy at someone else's expense thanks to this Crowdfunding page:

https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/...my-scholarship
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Old 17th May 2013, 07:29 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Hmmm.

I wonder what would happen if you had two misters, one with water and one with acid, and your sprayed them into the same volume?
Don't know but supect reasonable mixing to dilute acid would occur without 'oops' like what is expected when you pour acid into water.
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Old 17th May 2013, 10:02 PM   #436
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Well, reasonable is actually the opposite of what I was thinking of
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