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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 29th April 2019, 03:28 AM   #1521
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That last line should have read, "This reference to South Africa seems contrived. I think you only brought it up because it’s emotionally charged and not because it’s relevant. "
Not really Bantustan's has a lot in common with the Palestinian state. And of course letting the people in these states have self determination would undermine the self determination of the south African people.

There are a lot of reasons why Israel had such close ties with Apartheid south Africa.
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Old 29th April 2019, 11:39 AM   #1522
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Well what about Israeli expansion then ?
Your question is a bit vague, but off the top of my head is often exaggerated in scope, and claims that it is the sole cause of the ongoing conflict ignore the realities.
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Old 29th April 2019, 12:15 PM   #1523
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep kicking out illegal squatters is totally genocide.
The term under discussion was ”ethnic cleansing”, which you said ”covers all means of removing an ethnicity from a region.” So it would certainly have covered removing everyone of Jewish ethnicity from Gaza.

Also, I don’t agree they were “illegal squatters”. If you think they were, please show your evidence.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Funny how taking someone land from them and denying them votes is totally now self determination. Up next it will be all about elbowroom.
Ah, withdrawal from Gaza is now “taking land”. Also, citizens of Gaza were allowed to vote, they voted for Hamas. As is often the case in the Middle East, Hamas has since declined to offer them another vote. That was back during the Bush administration.

Also, you seem to be a bit confused. Do you think citizens of Gaza should vote in Israeli elections? For that to happen Israel should annex Gaza, and if that were to happen then Israeli Jewish people should have the same rights to live in Gaza as Israeli Muslim people, right? You can’t simultaneously claim this land as exclusively Palestinian-Arab while asserting Palestinian-Arab rights to vote in Israeli elections.

Well, I guess you could, it just wouldn’t make any sense.

Also, I’m of the opinion that given the history of the Jewish people and Nazis that making comparisons between Israel and Nazism is anti-Semitic. I’d feel differently if Israel were building extermination camps such as the Nazis did, but since they’re not such references are clearly designed to be hurtful to Jewish people, and that’s anti-Semitic.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
???? How does this make any sense? I guess self determination includes invasion and taking land. Really any response to an invasion is a total rejection of the idea of self determination on the invaders by including the invaded in the voting.
Not everyone equates immigration to invasion, but those that do have a lot in common the emerging far-right in the United States and Europe. You don’t strike me as the type to align with that crowd, but I’m often surprised.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
These views must make the whole situation in Ukraine interesting. Clearly ethnic Ukrainians voting in self determination undermines the rights of ethnic russians.
I’m curious as to how you would attempt to resolve why historically it was okay for Russians to immigrate to Ukraine but it wasn’t okay for Jews to immigrate to the Levant. I look forward to hearing this.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not really Bantustan's has a lot in common with the Palestinian state. And of course letting the people in these states have self determination would undermine the self determination of the south African people.
One important difference is that Palestinians have their own governments that are supposed to be working towards independence. Instead they seem to be working towards prolonging the conflict and maintaining the status quo for as long as possible.
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Old 30th April 2019, 03:30 AM   #1524
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The term under discussion was ”ethnic cleansing”, which you said ”covers all means of removing an ethnicity from a region.” So it would certainly have covered removing everyone of Jewish ethnicity from Gaza.

Also, I don’t agree they were “illegal squatters”. If you think they were, please show your evidence.
So what else do the residents of illegal settlements count as? Jews living outside the settlements would certainly be entitled to stay.


Quote:
Ah, withdrawal from Gaza is now “taking land”. Also, citizens of Gaza were allowed to vote, they voted for Hamas. As is often the case in the Middle East, Hamas has since declined to offer them another vote. That was back during the Bush administration.
Yes and? See it is the occupying power that has the moral obligation to work through and find a solution. I know you would have found the existence of Al Qaeda in Iraq reason to dissolve the Iraqi government and keep total american control over the region to this day, with american settlements popping up all over the place.
Quote:
Also, you seem to be a bit confused. Do you think citizens of Gaza should vote in Israeli elections? For that to happen Israel should annex Gaza, and if that were to happen then Israeli Jewish people should have the same rights to live in Gaza as Israeli Muslim people, right? You can’t simultaneously claim this land as exclusively Palestinian-Arab while asserting Palestinian-Arab rights to vote in Israeli elections.
Sure that is the whole point of a one state solution, at least one that isn't a religious apartheid state.
Quote:
Also, I’m of the opinion that given the history of the Jewish people and Nazis that making comparisons between Israel and Nazism is anti-Semitic. I’d feel differently if Israel were building extermination camps such as the Nazis did, but since they’re not such references are clearly designed to be hurtful to Jewish people, and that’s anti-Semitic.
Got it only genocide was a real crime all that collective punishment stuff they did to conquered peoples such as the reason Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated and consequences of that are all OK. The final solution was clearly the only moral issue with nazi rule in Poland.

Quote:
Not everyone equates immigration to invasion, but those that do have a lot in common the emerging far-right in the United States and Europe. You don’t strike me as the type to align with that crowd, but I’m often surprised.
To be immigration they would have to be say subject to the local laws, the Settlements are clearly not immigration in any conventional sense as they are not moving into the palestinian state but remain entirely under the control of Israel. If such settlements were being set up in other nations I would apply such a term there.

Please show me the mexican settlements patrolled by the mexican army in the US and you might have some kind of point.


Quote:
I’m curious as to how you would attempt to resolve why historically it was okay for Russians to immigrate to Ukraine but it wasn’t okay for Jews to immigrate to the Levant. I look forward to hearing this.
I am fine with immigration in both cases. But at least it is clear you support the russian annexation in Ukraine.


Quote:
One important difference is that Palestinians have their own governments that are supposed to be working towards independence. Instead they seem to be working towards prolonging the conflict and maintaining the status quo for as long as possible.
Just like Bibi the elected leader of Israel who wants to cleanse the region through those totally under palestinian control settlements that are a normal form of immigration.
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Old 30th April 2019, 04:51 AM   #1525
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what else do the residents of illegal settlements count as? Jews living outside the settlements would certainly be entitled to stay.
Umm.. are you reffering to Jews in the West Bank ? Mahmoud has already stated that under a Palestinian State, those Jews would be evicted ?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes and? See it is the occupying power that has the moral obligation to work through and find a solution. ....
Umm... not really Ponderingturtle. There is an obligation for BOTH sides to negotiate; an obligation that the PLO has abrogated time and time again.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure that is the whole point of a one state solution, at least one that isn't a religious apartheid state.
Umm.. yes... but... but... if Arab Palestinians where allowed to vote, they would vote out a democracy, and vote in an Islamic Wafq, and shortly afterwards they would vote to merge with Jordan. And democracy would be dead in the middle east. Along with all of the Jews.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
To be immigration they would have to be say subject to the local laws, the Settlements are clearly not immigration in any conventional sense as they are not moving into the palestinian state but remain entirely under the control of Israel. If such settlements were being set up in other nations I would apply such a term there.
Fair point. I think Israel - after 60 years of fruitless negotiations - has got frustrated with the Palestinians, and is slowly adopting a "sod 'em" attitude ?
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Old 30th April 2019, 07:04 AM   #1526
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Umm.. are you reffering to Jews in the West Bank ? Mahmoud has already stated that under a Palestinian State, those Jews would be evicted ?
I was talking about the illegal settlements. Of course any such agreement would have to allow those to be Israeli or it would never get accepted by Israel. Clearly ousting illegal settlers is totally genocide now I guess.
Quote:
Umm... not really Ponderingturtle. There is an obligation for BOTH sides to negotiate; an obligation that the PLO has abrogated time and time again.
And of course they are the only possible political group in Palestine. Hence why our attempts in Afghanistan are doomed, we never even tried to negotiate with the Taliban as the lawful totally only possible government. But what ever keeps it up so that Bibi can keep his plans of an ever expanding Israel. It is after all what the people want and hence.


Quote:
Umm.. yes... but... but... if Arab Palestinians where allowed to vote, they would vote out a democracy, and vote in an Islamic Wafq, and shortly afterwards they would vote to merge with Jordan. And democracy would be dead in the middle east. Along with all of the Jews.
Yep because those subhuman Muslims are just incapable of democracy and hence the need for an apartheid state. Good reason not to let any Muslims vote in Israel as well. Clearly Muslims can not be trusted with voting. It is really a clear shame then that any Muslims are allowed to vote in Israel.

Quote:
Fair point. I think Israel - after 60 years of fruitless negotiations - has got frustrated with the Palestinians, and is slowly adopting a "sod 'em" attitude ?
Ah that totally makes illegal settlements and slow ethnic cleansing OK then. Clearly they deserve it.

Up next why we made the mistake of not taking the Oil when we invaded Iraq and letting them pretend to have a democracy when Muslims are totally incapable of any kind of democracy.
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Old 30th April 2019, 02:28 PM   #1527
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what else do the residents of illegal settlements count as?
It’s up to you to defend the term you used, not me to provide an alternative.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Jews living outside the settlements would certainly be entitled to stay.
What do you think a “settlement” is that you think it would be illegal to live in one and legal to live outside of one?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes and? See it is the occupying power that has the moral obligation to work through and find a solution.
There is no such requirement on an occupying power, and I disagree that Gaza is “occupied”. Wherever there is a conflict between two peoples it necessarily requires effort from both peoples to resolve it. The rules don’t magically change just because one group is more powerful than the other.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I know you would have found the existence of Al Qaeda in Iraq reason to dissolve the Iraqi government and keep total american control over the region to this day, with american settlements popping up all over the place.
This makes no sense, unless you are not aware that Hamas is the ruling power in Gaza. There was a vote, they won.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure that is the whole point of a one state solution, at least one that isn't a religious apartheid state.
Israel is not a “religious apartheid” state. Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Baha’i, Druze, Samaritans any anyone else has their religious freedoms protected in Israel.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it only genocide was a real crime all that collective punishment stuff they did to conquered peoples such as the reason Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated and consequences of that are all OK. The final solution was clearly the only moral issue with nazi rule in Poland.
Sarcasm isn’t actually an argument.

Sanctions and embargos are not “Nazi” tactics, and if they counted as “collective punishment” then virtually the entire world would be guilty.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
To be immigration they would have to be say subject to the local laws…
Which the immigrants from the late 1800’s to 1947 did. Come to think of it, immigrants after 1947 obeyed the local laws too.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
…the Settlements are clearly not immigration in any conventional sense as they are not moving into the palestinian state but remain entirely under the control of Israel.
At the moment there is no Palestinian state, unless you count Jordan. Jordan is on territory that was initially the British Mandate for Palestine and has a population that is predominantly Palestinian.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If such settlements were being set up in other nations I would apply such a term there.
They are, we just don’t call them as such. When immigrants come to the United States, they often “settle” in neighborhoods with a lot of other people who immigrate from the same part of the globe. This is understandable as it’s easier to build a new life if you’re connected to family and people who speak the same language and share the same culture as you.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Please show me the mexican settlements patrolled by the mexican army in the US and you might have some kind of point.
As soon as you show me an area of Mexico that’s disputed territory and inhabited by a population hostile to Mexico.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am fine with immigration in both cases. But at least it is clear you support the russian annexation in Ukraine.
Your straw-man is clearly designed to cover you dodging the issue. What, in your opinion, makes one immigration acceptable and the other not? Surely if it’s okay for Russians to immigrate to the Ukraine and influence the local politics then it was also okay for Jewish immigrants back in the early 20th century? Why or why not?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just like Bibi the elected leader of Israel who wants to cleanse the region through those totally under palestinian control settlements that are a normal form of immigration.
That’s a bold statement about the intention of Netanyahu. As I don’t believe in mind-reading, I want to know what is your evidence? It’s weird that if that’s what he wants to do, that he hasn’t done anything like that even though he’s been in power since 2007.

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Old 1st May 2019, 04:31 AM   #1528
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It’s up to you to defend the term you used, not me to provide an alternative.
Got it nothing invasion related about the military crossing borders and setting up enclaves protected by said military, that is totally not an act of war but normal immigration now. I await the setting up of such enclaves in the US any day now, totally outside of US government control and with a foreign military presense. Just normal immigration that.



Quote:
What do you think a “settlement” is that you think it would be illegal to live in one and legal to live outside of one?
Easy it is all about jurisdiction. If they were moving into Palestine and actually living among the Palestinians it would be legal immigration. Setting up extra national enclaves is kind of a different thing. I get it you support the settlements and they are for some reason totally not part of Israel even though no one in them or around them sees it that way, but they are really part of Palestine? And that makes them all legal?


Quote:
There is no such requirement on an occupying power, and I disagree that Gaza is “occupied”. Wherever there is a conflict between two peoples it necessarily requires effort from both peoples to resolve it. The rules don’t magically change just because one group is more powerful than the other.
Yea if only more conquered people learned to love the their conquerors it would be so much easier, really it is all their fault. It does show that really Cromwell was the only British leader who really understood how to deal with the Irish, replace them with more properly tractable settlers.


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This makes no sense, unless you are not aware that Hamas is the ruling power in Gaza. There was a vote, they won.
And so is Sisi, Putin and Saddam, what is your point?


Quote:
Israel is not a “religious apartheid” state. Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Baha’i, Druze, Samaritans any anyone else has their religious freedoms protected in Israel.
And yet there are so many in its controlled territory who are not allowed to vote because actually formally anexing it would be bad press. And you made it clear that they simply can not be allowed to vote, so which is it?

And of course it is good to see the 14th amendment solved all such issues in the US.


Quote:
Sarcasm isn’t actually an argument.

Sanctions and embargos are not “Nazi” tactics, and if they counted as “collective punishment” then virtually the entire world would be guilty.
But the fundamental argument is collective punishment, they all bear the collective guilt for the actions of a few. That is a fundamental point people are happy in making here.


Quote:
At the moment there is no Palestinian state, unless you count Jordan. Jordan is on territory that was initially the British Mandate for Palestine and has a population that is predominantly Palestinian.
Exactly there is just a bunch of area that is totally not part of any state under the control of Israel for the past 50 years. Totally normal and acceptable that and moving in and taking it is in now way an expansion because of course it is a part of Israel as well, hence how the settlements are not immigration at all and at the same time totally immigration as it fits your definition at the time.


Quote:
They are, we just don’t call them as such. When immigrants come to the United States, they often “settle” in neighborhoods with a lot of other people who immigrate from the same part of the globe. This is understandable as it’s easier to build a new life if you’re connected to family and people who speak the same language and share the same culture as you.
And of course have the military protection of the foreign government and totally outside all local jurisdiction and are not counted as part of the US. When these settlements start being ruled by Hamas as you cite as the local government there then they count as immigrants.

You are the first one who I have ever seen argue that the Settlements are Israelis trying to immigrate to Palestine. It is certainly a unique if totally not remotely based in any fact at all argument.


Quote:
As soon as you show me an area of Mexico that’s disputed territory and inhabited by a population hostile to Mexico.
Texas, and how they refused to obey local laws outlawing slavery?

How about the total non conquest of Hawaii by off duty marines overthrowing the local government? Totally normal immigration that was.


Quote:
Your straw-man is clearly designed to cover you dodging the issue. What, in your opinion, makes one immigration acceptable and the other not? Surely if it’s okay for Russians to immigrate to the Ukraine and influence the local politics then it was also okay for Jewish immigrants back in the early 20th century? Why or why not?
And what does the early 20th century have to do with anything? I get it the Russian army was right to invade and conquer Ukraine and that was totally not an invasion but a normal part of the immigration process. Really people need to give up in those silly objections.


Quote:
That’s a bold statement about the intention of Netanyahu. As I don’t believe in mind-reading, I want to know what is your evidence? It’s weird that if that’s what he wants to do, that he hasn’t done anything like that even though he’s been in power since 2007.
Why leaders often don't get what they want? At least they have been successful at getting rid of power and clean drinking water so that is a clear win. One step at a time.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 03:26 AM   #1529
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Oh and as for the argument that Muslims are full Israeli citizens take it up with their recently reelected president who says they are not. Who should I trust on this, some random person on the internet or the President of Israel?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-real-israelis

This is the clearly stated view that wins elections there so it why shouldn't we accept it as the way the nation works?
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Old 2nd May 2019, 10:54 AM   #1530
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Oh and as for the argument that Muslims are full Israeli citizens take it up with their recently reelected president who says they are not. Who should I trust on this, some random person on the internet or the President of Israel?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-real-israelis
Benjamin Netanyahu is not the President of Israel.

Reuven Rivlin is.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 11:14 AM   #1531
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Real problem is for the last few years, both sides of this have had terrible leadership.
ANd as much As I dislike Bibi, I don't think the "ethnic cleansing" of the occupied territories is on his agenda.
But the current situation cannot hold. It's too unstable.
I don't know what the solution is,frankly.
But I do know that seeing this in black and white terms is a huge mistake.
And equating Israel with South Africa is just plain wrong.
But the hard left is like the hard right;They need to find some country to hate.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 11:17 AM   #1532
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Oh and as for the argument that Muslims are full Israeli citizens take it up with their recently reelected president who says they are not. Who should I trust on this, some random person on the internet or the President of Israel?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-real-israelis

This is the clearly stated view that wins elections there so it why shouldn't we accept it as the way the nation works?
You just hate "the Zionist Entity". Just admit it,then explain what should happen to the Five Million plus Jews living in Israel if the "Zionist Entity" were destroyed. I have never gotten a good answer on this from the rabid Anti Zionists.
Not that the supporters of a Hard Line Isreali policy toward the Palestinians are much more logical in considering the results of their theories.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 11:26 AM   #1533
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Real problem is for the last few years, both sides of this have had terrible leadership.
ANd as much As I dislike Bibi, I don't think the "ethnic cleansing" of the occupied territories is on his agenda.
But the current situation cannot hold. It's too unstable.
Nonsense it is getting more and more stable. The palestinians are losing all industrialization and support and can't even have clean water, how are they supposed to be a threat? They are just going to be more and more walled in and it will continue as it has for the past 60 years.

It is stable. It is a fixed stable low grade humanitarian crisis like it has been for decades. More settlements will be built and more and more of the Israeli populace will live in the so called occupied territories.

Really what about the situation could actually force any change in the established policies?
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Old 2nd May 2019, 11:29 AM   #1534
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Benjamin Netanyahu is not the President of Israel.

Reuven Rivlin is.
Ah sorry the actual leader of the government who people want to lead them. The point of course stands no matter the actual title. But merely controlling the government and making it clear that Israel is really for Jews only isn't enough evidence? What more do you need?

At least he comes out and says it and doesn't pretend that they can be a Jewish state and a liberal western democracy, and he makes it clear which wins out.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 11:34 AM   #1535
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You just hate "the Zionist Entity". Just admit it,then explain what should happen to the Five Million plus Jews living in Israel if the "Zionist Entity" were destroyed. I have never gotten a good answer on this from the rabid Anti Zionists.
Not that the supporters of a Hard Line Isreali policy toward the Palestinians are much more logical in considering the results of their theories.
????? How does that refute the prime minster claiming that non jews are second class citizens? I am not at all trying to get the jews living there out of there you keep adding that strawman and I never said it. I am just making it clear that non jews are not equal citizens, their own prime minister happily broadcasts that fact. Of course his challenger wasn't exactly soft on the Palestinians either. Really the only plan they have is to crush them under their boot heel until they love us.


"The beatings will continue until morale improves" might be popular foreign policy traditionally but that doesn't make it moral or mean I can't decry it.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:23 AM   #1536
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah sorry the actual leader of the government who people want to lead them. The point of course stands no matter the actual title. But merely controlling the government and making it clear that Israel is really for Jews only isn't enough evidence? What more do you need?

At least he comes out and says it and doesn't pretend that they can be a Jewish state and a liberal western democracy, and he makes it clear which wins out.

...Really the only plan they have is to crush them (Arabs) under their boot heel until they love us.
Mr. Netanyahu has put together a majority ruling coalition, which involves many different parties in the Government. His 'control' is based on elections that were fair and balanced.

Israel is NOT 'For Jews Only" and your stating that here makes you appear exceedingly ridiculous.

There is NO PLAN to crush anyone. Not under boot heels, not under the treads of tanks.

What else ya got?
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Old 4th May 2019, 02:46 AM   #1537
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Oh and as for the argument that Muslims are full Israeli citizens take it up with their recently reelected president who says they are not. Who should I trust on this, some random person on the internet or the President of Israel?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-real-israelis

This is the clearly stated view that wins elections there so it why shouldn't we accept it as the way the nation works?
Some context here:
Quote:
Israel is not a state of all its citizens. According to the basic nationality law we passed, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people – and only it.
There is no problem with the Arab citizens of Israel. They have equal rights like all of us and the Likud government has invested more in the Arab sector than any other government.
He called Israel a “Jewish, democratic state” with equal rights, but “the nation state not of all its citizens but only of the Jewish people”.
This is what you said:
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle
At least he comes out and says it and doesn't pretend that they can be a Jewish state and a liberal western democracy, and he makes it clear which wins out.
So, yes, Netanyahu is a deeply unpleasant man, with deeply unsavoury views, but he did not say what you claimed he said, and even if he did, that still does not mean that Israel has discriminatory laws against its Arab citizens. They are full citizens, but Israel is a Jewish state.
This, by the way, is in complete contrast to the status of non-Muslims who lived in Muslim countries in the past, and also to the status of many non-Muslims now. Does the Islamic Republic of Iran sound like it gives equal status to non-Muslims? (It doesn't, by the way). Does this therefore mean we should call it the Shi'ite Project?
Point being, dishonesty and double standards are uncool, man.
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Old 5th May 2019, 09:44 AM   #1538
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So, yes, Netanyahu is a deeply unpleasant man, with deeply unsavoury views, but he did not say what you claimed he said, and even if he did, that still does not mean that Israel has discriminatory laws against its Arab citizens. They are full citizens, but Israel is a Jewish state.
This, by the way, is in complete contrast to the status of non-Muslims who lived in Muslim countries in the past, and also to the status of many non-Muslims now. Does the Islamic Republic of Iran sound like it gives equal status to non-Muslims? (It doesn't, by the way). Does this therefore mean we should call it the Shi'ite Project?
Point being, dishonesty and double standards are uncool, man.
There is actually a small Jewish minority in Iran, which is fairly well tolerated, although things are not perfect:
Quote:
Iran's Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians and Christians, they are allocated one seat in the Iranian Parliament. ... As of 2018, only 8,500 Jews still live in Iran[69] and they constitute 0,01% of Iranian population, a number confirmed by Sergio DellaPergola, a leading Jewish demographer.[70] ... In 2003, Chief Rabbi Cohen and Maurice Motamed met with President Khatami at Yusef Abad Synagogue which was the first time a President of Iran had visited a synagogue since the Islamic Revolution.[75]... The government reportedly allows Hebrew instruction, recognizing that it is necessary for Jewish religious practice. However, it strongly discourages the distribution of Hebrew texts, in practice making it difficult to teach the language.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews).
Fortunately, the Jews are not subject to sanctions, and they don't have to pay a "Kontribution" (fine) like German Jews in 1938 (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...jews-are-fined), even though the severe economic sanctions against Iran are probably indirectly caused by Israel's policies. Trump and Israel are probably roughly the nowadays equivalent of the 1938 Nazis (who had not yet committed Shoah then).
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Old 6th May 2019, 02:27 AM   #1539
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I was a bit surprised to see somebody on Aljazeera TV yesterday describe Netanyahu as clueless. I suppose there always has been fear in Israel and they don't want to be driven into the sea. There is a bit about the matter in a book called the Eden Legacy by Geffrey McDermott published in 1969:

Quote:
Israel is in contravention of the UN's resolutions in holding on to her conquests, and her occasionally arrogant attitude has alienated even some of her friends. All efforts by the UN, the USSR and the US to stop the fighting were in vain until Israel chose to stop. This shows how ineffective the greatest powers can be in certain critical conditions.

The Arabs are now preparing for the next round and the familiar guerrillas, this time called Al Fatah, are again operating. It looks a hopeless project. The Arabs just do not want a peaceful solution; they want Israel dumped in the sea.......

So the short-and medium-term prospect in the Middle East is turbulence which neither the US nor the USSR will control. As for the long-term prospect, it is only possible to say that these two powers are no more likely to allow a third World War to start here than anywhere else.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:21 AM   #1540
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Mr. Netanyahu has put together a majority ruling coalition, which involves many different parties in the Government. His 'control' is based on elections that were fair and balanced.

Israel is NOT 'For Jews Only" and your stating that here makes you appear exceedingly ridiculous.
Yes it is just of course not at all equal or should be equal for non jews. The majority says so clearly, that non jews should be second class citizens at best. But this is all free and fair elections and protecting minority rights is not at all a part of liberal democracy.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:26 AM   #1541
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So, yes, Netanyahu is a deeply unpleasant man, with deeply unsavoury views, but he did not say what you claimed he said, and even if he did, that still does not mean that Israel has discriminatory laws against its Arab citizens. They are full citizens, but Israel is a Jewish state.
This, by the way, is in complete contrast to the status of non-Muslims who lived in Muslim countries in the past, and also to the status of many non-Muslims now. Does the Islamic Republic of Iran sound like it gives equal status to non-Muslims? (It doesn't, by the way). Does this therefore mean we should call it the Shi'ite Project?
Point being, dishonesty and double standards are uncool, man.
Yes yes yes, because it is only when totally codified into law that such discrimination can possibly exist.

It is clear it is not a liberal democratic state and does not wish to be, it desires to be a jewish ethnostate and of course some jews are clearly more equal than others. Those Ethiopian jews really had it coming by trying to pretend they are real full jews after all. And to say nothing of the Lemba people who are way to far off to be recognized.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:49 AM   #1542
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes it is just of course not at all equal or should be equal for non jews. The majority says so clearly, that non jews should be second class citizens at best. But this is all free and fair elections and protecting minority rights is not at all a part of liberal democracy.
The majority Jewish population in Israel respects the non-Jews.
As in every country, more can be done to promote greater educational and employment opportunities for minorities.
Israel does spend billions of shekels in the Arab sectors to improve their lives.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/govern...ab-communities

And your follow-up posting is a real mish-mash of nonsense.
Ethiopians? 'Lemba people'?

What ARE you babbling about?
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:05 PM   #1543
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Mr. Netanyahu has put together a majority ruling coalition, which involves many different parties in the Government. His 'control' is based on elections that were fair and balanced.

Israel is NOT 'For Jews Only" and your stating that here makes you appear exceedingly ridiculous.

There is NO PLAN to crush anyone. Not under boot heels, not under the treads of tanks.

What else ya got?
Would you have any objection to the United States treating Muslims residing in our country the way Israel treats the Muslims residing in their country?
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:05 PM   #1544
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Some context here:


This is what you said:


So, yes, Netanyahu is a deeply unpleasant man, with deeply unsavoury views, but he did not say what you claimed he said, and even if he did, that still does not mean that Israel has discriminatory laws against its Arab citizens. They are full citizens, but Israel is a Jewish state.
This, by the way, is in complete contrast to the status of non-Muslims who lived in Muslim countries in the past, and also to the status of many non-Muslims now. Does the Islamic Republic of Iran sound like it gives equal status to non-Muslims? (It doesn't, by the way). Does this therefore mean we should call it the Shi'ite Project?
Point being, dishonesty and double standards are uncool, man.
Sadly, one sided hatred of Israel..not, mind you of some of Bibi's stupid policies, but of the mere existence of the Jewish state...has become cool and hip with the wannabe revolutionaries on the hard left.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:26 PM   #1545
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Would you have any objection to the United States treating Muslims residing in our country the way Israel treats the Muslims residing in their country?
Israel => elects Muslims to Parliamentary positions
USA => elects Muslims to Congressional positions

Israel => has Muslim Jurists/Judges and Muslim Police and Muslim Lawyers
USA => has Muslim Jurists/Judges and Muslim Police and Muslim Lawyers

Israel=> Universities enroll Muslims and many educators are Muslims
USA => Universities enroll Muslims and many educators are Muslims

Israel => volunteer Muslims in military
USA => volunteer Muslims in military

Can you point to a specific example of all Muslims in Israel being treated inappropriately?
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Old 6th May 2019, 11:08 PM   #1546
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Israel => elects Muslims to Parliamentary positions
USA => elects Muslims to Congressional positions

Israel => has Muslim Jurists/Judges and Muslim Police and Muslim Lawyers
USA => has Muslim Jurists/Judges and Muslim Police and Muslim Lawyers

Israel=> Universities enroll Muslims and many educators are Muslims
USA => Universities enroll Muslims and many educators are Muslims

Israel => volunteer Muslims in military
USA => volunteer Muslims in military

Can you point to a specific example of all Muslims in Israel being treated inappropriately?
No, I cannot. I assume you can't either. So webfusion has no objections to the United States treating its Muslim population the way Israel treats theirs. Anybody else have a different opinion?
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:39 AM   #1547
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Sadly, one sided hatred of Israel..not, mind you of some of Bibi's stupid policies, but of the mere existence of the Jewish state...has become cool and hip with the wannabe revolutionaries on the hard left.
And the supporters of Israel should be afraid to tout the successes of their conquest, like the lack of clean water and the limited electricity. Clamping down on electricity and clean water are the kind of policy victories that Israel supporters should crow from the highest rooftops. These are not stupid policies these are the popular and vote winning policies of the nation, and should be recognized as such.

And you have some dream world were the settlements and hence 10% of the Israeli population will be forcibly relocated. The only way out is an apartheid state. A two state solution is simply unworkable at this point and maintaining a fundamentally jewish nature of the state is fundamental no matter what the population is so the only way forward is clear.
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:53 AM   #1548
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There is actually a small Jewish minority in Iran, which is fairly well tolerated, although things are not perfect:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews).
Fortunately, the Jews are not subject to sanctions, and they don't have to pay a "Kontribution" (fine) like German Jews in 1938 (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...jews-are-fined), even though the severe economic sanctions against Iran are probably indirectly caused by Israel's policies. Trump and Israel are probably roughly the nowadays equivalent of the 1938 Nazis (who had not yet committed Shoah then).
This tolerance, unfortunately, does not extend as far as allowing Iranian Jews, or indeed non-Muslims of any kind, to hold government positions.
Israeli Arabs, on the other hand, can and do occupy positions of power in Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_c...in_the_Knesset
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:04 AM   #1549
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes yes yes, because it is only when totally codified into law that such discrimination can possibly exist.
Discrimination exists everywhere. Israel is no different from any other country in this respect. However, it is different in having legal equality for Israeli Arabs, when many Muslim countries do not extend the same rights to non-Muslims. This is not a case of whataboutism: one of the definitions of anti-semitism is holding Israel accountable to standards that are not applied to other, similar countries.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is clear it is not a liberal democratic state and does not wish to be, it desires to be a jewish ethnostate and of course some jews are clearly more equal than others.
No, you saying this does not make it clear: it just means you are saying this. What you need, old chap, is something called evidence. Out-of-context quotes don't count, I'm afraid.
Syria is actually called the Syrian Arab Republic. The United Arab Emirates' name gives a clue as to how they view their ethnic make-up. If it is OK for these countries to style themselves as Arab, then it surely must be OK for Israel to style itself Jewish. Non-Arabs live in the UAE: non-Jews live in Israel. I fail to see the injustice in this.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Those Ethiopian jews really had it coming by trying to pretend they are real full jews after all. And to say nothing of the Lemba people who are way to far off to be recognized.
Again, racism and prejudice are universal. Unless you can show how this is worse among Israeli Jews than in other Middle Eastern countries (and good luck with that), then your point is irrelevant.
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:09 AM   #1550
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Would you have any objection to the United States treating Muslims residing in our country the way Israel treats the Muslims residing in their country?
What way is that? Be specific.
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:39 AM   #1551
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This tolerance, unfortunately, does not extend as far as allowing Iranian Jews, or indeed non-Muslims of any kind, to hold government positions.
Israeli Arabs, on the other hand, can and do occupy positions of power in Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_c...in_the_Knesset
As I mentioned above, the wikipedia article on Iranian Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews) explains:
Quote:
Iran's Jewish community is officially recognized as a religious minority group by the government, and, like the Zoroastrians and Christians, they are allocated one seat in the Iranian Parliament. ... As of 2018, only 8,500 Jews still live in Iran[69] and they constitute 0,01% of Iranian population, a number confirmed by Sergio DellaPergola, a leading Jewish demographer.[70]
I have never heard that Iranians Jews (which are only a tiny minority), or non-Muslims, were banned from holding government positions in Iran.

USA Today wrote last year that:
Quote:
Iran’s Jewish community is the largest in the Mideast outside Israel – and feels safe and respected

... Today, 12,000 to 15,000 Jews remain in Iran, according to the committee.

It’s a small minority in a nation of 80 million people. But consider: Iran is home to the Middle East’s largest Jewish population outside Israel.

There are no Jews, however, in senior government positions. There’s only one Jewish representative in the country’s 290-member Parliament. His name is Siamak Moreh Sedgh.
(Link: https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=be)
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:22 AM   #1552
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Again, racism and prejudice are universal. Unless you can show how this is worse among Israeli Jews than in other Middle Eastern countries (and good luck with that), then your point is irrelevant.
Got it there really is no need for them to be any better than any of the other dictatorships in the area and we shouldn't expect them to be anything else, they certainly are not some bastion of liberal democracy that is laughable. They are no different than any other nation in the region.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:15 AM   #1553
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it there really is no need for them to be any better than any of the other dictatorships in the area and we shouldn't expect them to be anything else, they certainly are not some bastion of liberal democracy that is laughable. They are no different than any other nation in the region.
No, clearly you haven't got it, because you have mistaken a point about racism for a point about different systems of government.
Try reading more slowly next time.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:19 AM   #1554
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
What way is that? Be specific.
I don't know how Israel treats their Muslim population. From reading this discussion it sounds like Jews and Muslims in Israel have equal status, that the government doesn't discriminate. Some Muslims in the United States say they are treated as second class citizens so maybe we should look to Israel for guidance on how to make our Muslim population feel at home. Is that good idea? Should Muslims in the United States be treated the way they are in Israel?
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:49 AM   #1555
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, clearly you haven't got it, because you have mistaken a point about racism for a point about different systems of government.
Try reading more slowly next time.
Body of work. Getting it wrong is the point.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:51 AM   #1556
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I mean, if Muslims in the US segregated themselves into a separatist ghetto, elected a terrorist organization as their government, and launched rockets across the "border" into neighboring regions, the US would probably treat them pretty harshly.
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Old 7th May 2019, 12:22 PM   #1557
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, if Muslims in the US segregated themselves into a separatist ghetto, elected a terrorist organization as their government, and launched rockets across the "border" into neighboring regions, the US would probably treat them pretty harshly.
That's very likely, yes.

But Gaza's situation is different: it is not part of Israel, and it is subjected to a painful blockade by Israel.

In order to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, which is the topic of this thread, I think that Israel would essentially need to do two basic things:
(1) Lift completely the blockade imposed to Gaza since 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocka...the_Gaza_Strip). Allow Gaza to be an (almost) completely normal independant state, with a (deepwater) port, an airport, a desalination plant (https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pre...lant-1.7208012) and so on, and with a level of cooperation with the Palestinian Authority it would have to determine.
(2) Renounce its expansionist policies, that it has adopted since 1967, with variable U.S. support. This means all Israeli military and police forces should leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem, these territories should be entirely controlled by the Palestinian Authority, they belong to Palestine. Settlers there should be granted automatic residency, with possibility of obtaining citizenship if they have sufficient knowledge of the Arabic language and Palestinian institutions.
(I didn't mention Golan for simplicity).
That's it, conflict solved ... Is Israel is being attacked after these major concessions, I am confident it would get strong international support, it is entitled to protection as a member State of the U.N.
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Old 7th May 2019, 12:47 PM   #1558
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
(1) Lift completely the blockade imposed to Gaza since 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocka...the_Gaza_Strip). Allow Gaza to be an (almost) completely normal independant state, with a (deepwater) port, an airport, a desalination plant (https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pre...lant-1.7208012) and so on, and with a level of cooperation with the Palestinian Authority it would have to determine.
Egypt can lift the blockade. It doesn't. Ponder why.

As for a Palestinian airport....
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Who the hell would willingly fly an airplane into any territory controlled by Hamas? Are you asking to be hijacked?

Quote:
(2) Renounce its expansionist policies, that it has adopted since 1967, with variable U.S. support. This means all Israeli military and police forces should leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem, these territories should be entirely controlled by the Palestinian Authority, they belong to Palestine.
They tried that with Gaza. It wasn't productive.

Quote:
Settlers there should be granted automatic residency, with possibility of obtaining citizenship if they have sufficient knowledge of the Arabic language and Palestinian institutions.
(I didn't mention Golan for simplicity).
That's it, conflict solved ...
You think the Palestinians would accept Jewish residents? Are you seriously that naive?

Quote:
Is Israel is being attacked after these major concessions, I am confident it would get strong international support, it is entitled to protection as a member State of the U.N.
Yes, evidently you are that naive.

Quiz time: what's the largest voting bloc in the UN?
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Old 7th May 2019, 01:44 PM   #1559
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Egypt can lift the blockade. It doesn't. Ponder why.

As for a Palestinian airport....
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Who the hell would willingly fly an airplane into any territory controlled by Hamas? Are you asking to be hijacked?



They tried that with Gaza. It wasn't productive.



You think the Palestinians would accept Jewish residents? Are you seriously that naive?



Yes, evidently you are that naive.

Quiz time: what's the largest voting bloc in the UN?
Quote:
Egypt can lift the blockade. It doesn't. Ponder why.
Egypt has a right to fight terrorism, like any other state (although serious attempts to conduct dialogue should not be neglected, before a possible use of force). But I don't think blockading Gaza entirely (to prevent arms smuggling by Hamas, according to this source: https://honestreporting.com/gaza-blockade-explainer/) is the proper answer, from a humanitarian point of view.
Quote:
As for a Palestinian airport ....
Who the hell would willingly fly an airplane into any territory controlled by Hamas? Are you asking to be hijacked?
Perhaps Iran would be glad to fly into Gaza, Turkey could be next, and then other nations. Israel flies a lot over Gaza, but for different reasons .
Quote:
They tried that with Gaza. It wasn't productive.
I think it was a step in the right direction. They've not gone back ...
Quote:
You think the Palestinians would accept Jewish residents? Are you seriously that naive?
There are about 30,000 Palestinians working reluctantly in Israeli settlements (https://palestinakomiteen.no/palesti...k-settlements/). Perhaps they wouldn't mind if their bosses get resident status (and are not expelled back to Israel), otherwise they might lose their job: no boss, no job. They would probably be delighted to have a State.
Quote:
Yes, evidently you are that naive.

Quiz time: what's the largest voting bloc in the UN?
You may not be familiar with the basic legal principles of the U.N. Charter. I quote:
Quote:
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
(https://treaties.un.org/doc/publicat.../uncharter.pdf)
Israel is protected by the Charter, even if the largest "voting bloc" at the U.N. General Assembly is the one of Muslim Nations.
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:18 PM   #1560
CaptainHowdy
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As for a Palestinian airport....
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Who the hell would willingly fly an airplane into any territory controlled by Hamas? Are you asking to be hijacked?
When was the last time somebody from a territory controlled by Hamas hijacked an airplane?

Quote:
You think the Palestinians would accept Jewish residents? Are you seriously that naive?
Why wouldn't they? Palestinians, at least the Muslim Palestinians, would be willing to grant Jews the same rights and freedoms that the Israelis currently grant them. I dont' think Jews would even notice a difference, what with all religions having equal status in Israel today.
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