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Tags Nicolas Maduro , Venezuela economy , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 18th May 2017, 10:24 AM   #561
dudalb
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The trouble always begins in the same way:
Presidente, some of your people will be calling for an election next year!

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Elections are the biggest headache you have as El Presidente in "Tropico".
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Old 19th May 2017, 03:50 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
While the peasants struggle for necessities, the children of Chavismo elites work on their tans, far from such desperate problems:



*Sorry about the paywall.
The real tragedy of these Socialist dictators is that they still have to walk around in a bad suit, revolutionary uniform or other cheapo looking commie camouflage.

Imagine parking your yacht in Cannes next to some Russian oligarch wearing a $6000 Louis Vuitton suit, and you're standing there on the front deck in your Castro uniform having a cocktail. I'd me mortified.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:53 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The real tragedy of these Socialist dictators is that they still have to walk around in a bad suit, revolutionary uniform or other cheapo looking commie camouflage.

Imagine parking your yacht in Cannes next to some Russian oligarch wearing a $6000 Louis Vuitton suit, and you're standing there on the front deck in your Castro uniform having a cocktail. I'd me mortified.
In his last years before his unlamented (by me) demise,though, the Uniforms that Fidel was wearing has enough gold braid and bling to make one of Napoleon's Field Marshell's jealous.
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Old 19th May 2017, 05:31 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In his last years before his unlamented (by me) demise,though, the Uniforms that Fidel was wearing has enough gold braid and bling to make one of Napoleon's Field Marshell's jealous.
Fidel? His last uniform was the nursing home uniform; an Adidas tracksuit. If they had gotten one in olive green, they could have passed it off as his regular fatigues.

I think you're thinking of Gaddafi. He looked like he shared Michael Jackson's costumer.
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Old 21st May 2017, 11:38 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Fidel? His last uniform was the nursing home uniform; an Adidas tracksuit. If they had gotten one in olive green, they could have passed it off as his regular fatigues.

I think you're thinking of Gaddafi. He looked like he shared Michael Jackson's costumer.
And Keith Richard's chemist.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:19 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is that blockade preventing the world from learning that Venezuela doesn't actually have food shortages? That their currency isn't collapsing? That they're not having any problems exporting oil?

But I do have to give you credit: it takes cojones to be defending Venezuela at this late a date.
it's very strange because my two Venezuelan colleagues say CE is incorrect. The state sponsored propaganda tool is full of bull crap yet CE continues to peddle the stuff here while using silly childish insults
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Old 30th May 2017, 08:24 AM   #567
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Apparently Goldman Sachs bought almost a billion in Venezuelan oil company bonds, giving a cash infusion to the government, exactly the opposite of what the opposition wants. As god is their witness, they will make sure Goldman Sachs loses every dime.

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I AGREE




Goldman Sachs says they're hurting and things will get better someday. Last time I bought into that was during the Reagan years when they kept help flowing to South Africa because to withdraw it hurt the common people, who were screaming for exactly that to happen.
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:02 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Apparently Goldman Sachs bought almost a billion in Venezuelan oil company bonds, giving a cash infusion to the government, exactly the opposite of what the opposition wants. As god is their witness, they will make sure Goldman Sachs loses every dime.

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I AGREE


Goldman Sachs says they're hurting and things will get better someday. Last time I bought into that was during the Reagan years when they kept help flowing to South Africa because to withdraw it hurt the common people, who were screaming for exactly that to happen.
It's vulture capitalism at its' worst. They didn't pay a billion for those bonds, but just shy of 900 million, and they aren't worth a billion at list price, but well over two billion.

Plus interest!

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Old 1st June 2017, 03:40 AM   #569
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Found a linky to those bonds. It's a blog, but it links fine.

Goldman Sachs bought $2.8 billion (plus interest) worth of bonds for $865 million. Since it can sell them today for $1.17 billion, this amounts to a hefty subsidy of Goldman Sachs by Venezuela. The government is even more starved for cash than usual, apparently.

https://www.caracaschronicles.com/20...berg-terminal/

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Old 4th June 2017, 01:14 PM   #570
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Venezuelan Opposition Spreads Lies About U.S. Journalists, Inciting Violence, Death Threats
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Old 4th June 2017, 01:24 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
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Old 4th June 2017, 02:23 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
A country awash in oil and fertile farm land can't feed itself. That isn't because of the opposition.
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Old 4th June 2017, 03:02 PM   #573
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Mike Prysner is a member of A.N.S.W.E.R. and Abby Martin produces propaganda for RT. No violence was incited against them in the linked article.

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Old 8th June 2017, 02:05 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Mike Prysner is a member of A.N.S.W.E.R. and Abby Martin produces propaganda for RT. No violence was incited against them in the linked article.
Though their credibility as Jounalists has been dead for some time........
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Old 12th June 2017, 07:08 PM   #575
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Abby Martin (who hasn't worked for RT for three years or so no matter what US "intelligence" agencies deliver to no-brainers in their little propaganda stunts) tells her brother what happened to her on the trip (two hours podcast). She also told the story in just one hour, together with hubby, to influential lebanese(?) journalist Rania Khalek here and we'll see the TeleSUR reportage plus legal follow-ups which I'm sure will be "reported" by western pre$$titutes in a way we on the right side of history can use for our gains.
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Last edited by Childlike Empress; 12th June 2017 at 08:03 PM. Reason: fix rania khalek link ... interesting
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Old 12th June 2017, 07:25 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Abby Martin (who hasn't worked for RT for three years or so no matter what US "intelligence" agencies deliver to no-brainers in their little propaganda stunts) tells her brother what happened to her on the trip (two hours podcast). She also told the story in just one hour, together with hubby, to influential lebanese(?) journalist Rania Khalek here and we'll see the TeleSUR reportage plus legal follow-ups which I'm sure will be "reported" by western pre$$titutes in a way we on the right side of history can use for our gains.
A country which should be wealthy is instead falling apart, unable to even feed itself. Your pathetic attempts to deflect blame aren't fooling anyone. Chavez and his cronies ruined Venezuela, not the opposition.
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Old 12th June 2017, 07:30 PM   #577
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Wishful thinking, Ziggurat. The pattern is so in the open by now, not least thanks to people like Abby crossing over into sacred brainwashington territory, it isn't even funny anymore (for you ).
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Old 12th June 2017, 08:00 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Wishful thinking, Ziggurat. The pattern is so in the open by now, not least thanks to people like Abby crossing over into sacred brainwashington territory, it isn't even funny anymore (for you ).
Yes, the pattern is open: socialism fails. Dictators loot their own country. And your protestations about brainwashing can't cover up these basic facts.
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Old 12th June 2017, 10:14 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, the pattern is open: socialism fails. Dictators loot their own country. And your protestations about brainwashing can't cover up these basic facts.
Badly done socialism. To be fair, there were only two attempts that had actually some reasonable chance at succeeding: Czechoslovakia(60s) and Chile (Allende). Neither was allowed long term existence to see if either would work.

Venezuela is neither. It's just bog standard incompetence, corruption, idiotic policies and blaming anybody else for their own idiocy. None of that was present in those two cases I mentioned.
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Old 12th June 2017, 10:27 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Though their credibility as Jounalists has been dead for some time........
DOA, actually. Fluff for the Putinettes.
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Old 13th June 2017, 07:01 AM   #581
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Ha.... remember when this thread's original OP was the worst thing that was happening in my country? Ahhh..... good times....
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:29 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Badly done socialism. To be fair, there were only two attempts that had actually some reasonable chance at succeeding: Czechoslovakia(60s) and Chile (Allende). Neither was allowed long term existence to see if either would work.
Chile was allowed sufficient time to see just how well it would work.

Allende raised wages on a number of occasions throughout 1970 and 1971, but these wage hikes were negated by the in-tandem inflation of Chile's fiat currency. Although price rises had also been high under Frei (27% a year between 1967 and 1970), a basic basket of consumer goods rose by 120% from 190 to 421 escudos in one month alone, August 1972. In the period 1970–72, while Allende was in government, exports fell 24% and imports rose 26%, with imports of food rising an estimated 149%.

Export income fell due to a hard-hit copper industry: the price of copper on international markets fell by almost a third, and post-nationalization copper production fell as well. Copper is Chile's single most important export (more than half of Chile's export receipts were from this sole commodity[67]). The price of copper fell from a peak of $66 per ton in 1970 to only $48–9 in 1971 and 1972.[68] Chile was already dependent on food imports, and this decline in export earnings coincided with declines in domestic food production following Allende's agrarian reforms.[69]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

Any similarity with Venezuela of today is not coincidental. Allende was fortunate enough to have been deposed and killed before his chickens came home to roost, so he is remembered as a potential savior of Chile or something. In reality he made all the missteps socialists always did and his policies already had the negative impact they always did, they just weren't all that visible yet.

Chavez was also fortunate to have died just when this economic model ran out of steam. He will be remembered by the mainstream left as the man who did a good job at lifting Venezuelans out of poverty only to have died too soon and his successors lost everything. In reality the failure of Venezuela is due to mismanagement of the state on all levels by Chavez.

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Old 13th June 2017, 11:50 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Chile was allowed sufficient time to see just how well it would work.

Allende raised wages on a number of occasions throughout 1970 and 1971, but these wage hikes were negated by the in-tandem inflation of Chile's fiat currency. Although price rises had also been high under Frei (27% a year between 1967 and 1970), a basic basket of consumer goods rose by 120% from 190 to 421 escudos in one month alone, August 1972. In the period 1970–72, while Allende was in government, exports fell 24% and imports rose 26%, with imports of food rising an estimated 149%.

Export income fell due to a hard-hit copper industry: the price of copper on international markets fell by almost a third, and post-nationalization copper production fell as well. Copper is Chile's single most important export (more than half of Chile's export receipts were from this sole commodity[67]). The price of copper fell from a peak of $66 per ton in 1970 to only $48–9 in 1971 and 1972.[68] Chile was already dependent on food imports, and this decline in export earnings coincided with declines in domestic food production following Allende's agrarian reforms.[69]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

Any similarity with Venezuela of today is not coincidental. Allende was fortunate enough to have been deposed and killed before his chickens came home to roost, so he is remembered as a potential savior of Chile or something. In reality he made all the missteps socialists always did and his policies already had the negative impact they always did, they just weren't all that visible yet.

Chavez was also fortunate to have died just when this economic model ran out of steam. He will be remembered by the mainstream left as the man who did a good job at lifting Venezuelans out of poverty only to have died too soon and his successors lost everything. In reality the failure of Venezuela is due to mismanagement of the state on all levels by Chavez.

McHrozni
There's quite bit more to his period then that. And no, I'd dispute similarities to Venezuela. For one, foreign influence is missing in Venezuela's idiocy.

But we'd be getting off-topic.

ETA: Also quoting is bit selective...
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:59 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
There's quite bit more to his period then that. And no, I'd dispute similarities to Venezuela. For one, foreign influence is missing in Venezuela's idiocy.
Venezuela was almost two decades in the making. Chile only needed three for the first downsides of socialism to show. It was the same every time socialism was tried and the downsides showed in Chile within three years. What makes you think it would be any different?

As for foreign influence I wouldn't be so sure. Venezuela would have to deal with a major crisis several years earlier if it wasn't supported by China and Russia. The Chinese loans are exploitative to the bone, but they allowed the government to weather the crisis of its own making for much longer than it would be able to otherwise. They also made the crisis deeper, but because it came later, the opposition has fewer resources to throw at the government. Not to mention the Cuban influence, which extends above and beyond the 'doctors' for oil scheme. Cubans essentially run Venezuelan security apparatus, which ensures significantly greater levels of loyalty - they answer to Raoul, not Maduro and want to keep Maduro in place to ensure Cuba receives discounted oil to resell. If a few million Venezuelans go hungry they don't mind, because Cubans don't go hungry as a result.

One could argue there is more foreign interference in Venezuela than there ever was in Chile. The only difference in this regard is that in Venezuela foreign influence props up the government. This was also present in Chile, but only with marginal amounts of aid from USSR.

Quote:
ETA: Also quoting is bit selective...
Perhaps, here's the economic section of his presidency:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presid...ende#Economics

It's not very long at five paragraphs, but the fourth paragraph is quite informative:

Initially, the governing coalition expected the unearned wage increases and the consequent increase in government spending to be corrected once the 'structural changes' like nationalisation and agrarian reforms were completed. However, by June 1972, Allende was beginning to see the economic hazards. The minister of economy was changed and some austerity measures introduced, but to little avail.

Allende saw the dangers posed by the socialist ideology and began to reverse course. He was ineffective, but Chilean socialist experiment was falling apart without Pinochet, because of the same reasons socialist experiments always fell apart - drop in economic output and inefficiency. There is no reason to suspect Chile would be a socialist heaven had there not been a coup. It may be a more left-leaning state today, with smaller differences between the rich and poor, it could well be a better place to live today.

But socialist? No. That story ended even before the coup.

As for being on topic, Venezuela shows what could become of Chile had there not been a coup or if the coup was unsuccessful and Chile also shows what could become of Venezuela had the 2002 events took a different turn. It is hard to argue Venezuela is better off than Chile in any sense, in any amount of time - short, medium or long.

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Old 14th June 2017, 12:16 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Venezuela was almost two decades in the making. Chile only needed three for the first downsides of socialism to show. It was the same every time socialism was tried and the downsides showed in Chile within three years. What makes you think it would be any different?

As for foreign influence I wouldn't be so sure. Venezuela would have to deal with a major crisis several years earlier if it wasn't supported by China and Russia. The Chinese loans are exploitative to the bone, but they allowed the government to weather the crisis of its own making for much longer than it would be able to otherwise. They also made the crisis deeper, but because it came later, the opposition has fewer resources to throw at the government. Not to mention the Cuban influence, which extends above and beyond the 'doctors' for oil scheme. Cubans essentially run Venezuelan security apparatus, which ensures significantly greater levels of loyalty - they answer to Raoul, not Maduro and want to keep Maduro in place to ensure Cuba receives discounted oil to resell. If a few million Venezuelans go hungry they don't mind, because Cubans don't go hungry as a result.

One could argue there is more foreign interference in Venezuela than there ever was in Chile. The only difference in this regard is that in Venezuela foreign influence props up the government. This was also present in Chile, but only with marginal amounts of aid from USSR.



Perhaps, here's the economic section of his presidency:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presid...ende#Economics

It's not very long at five paragraphs, but the fourth paragraph is quite informative:

Initially, the governing coalition expected the unearned wage increases and the consequent increase in government spending to be corrected once the 'structural changes' like nationalisation and agrarian reforms were completed. However, by June 1972, Allende was beginning to see the economic hazards. The minister of economy was changed and some austerity measures introduced, but to little avail.

Allende saw the dangers posed by the socialist ideology and began to reverse course. He was ineffective, but Chilean socialist experiment was falling apart without Pinochet, because of the same reasons socialist experiments always fell apart - drop in economic output and inefficiency. There is no reason to suspect Chile would be a socialist heaven had there not been a coup. It may be a more left-leaning state today, with smaller differences between the rich and poor, it could well be a better place to live today.

But socialist? No. That story ended even before the coup.

As for being on topic, Venezuela shows what could become of Chile had there not been a coup or if the coup was unsuccessful and Chile also shows what could become of Venezuela had the 2002 events took a different turn. It is hard to argue Venezuela is better off than Chile in any sense, in any amount of time - short, medium or long.

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Old 14th June 2017, 12:25 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Cybersyn
A clear example of ideological blindness.

Central command economy doesn't fail just because the amount of data you have to manage centrally quickly outstrips the capacity of centralized decision-making. It fails, first and foremost, because of the conflicts of interest of those in power. An owner of a factory has only one motive: profit. A politician in charge of a factors has two: personal gain (career or financial) and profit for the factory.

The politicians in charge overwhelmingly choose to favor the first over the other and the system fails even if the centralized decision making works better than decentralized overall. This is done with the much more crude weapons such as per-election spending splurges, having the control of the entire economy is the populist dictators' wet dream.

This is before we consider other weaknesses, such as risks of a local failure close to the main node crashing the entire decision-making for the economy as a whole.

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Old 14th June 2017, 01:35 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
A clear example of ideological blindness.

Central command economy doesn't fail just because the amount of data you have to manage centrally quickly outstrips the capacity of centralized decision-making. It fails, first and foremost, because of the conflicts of interest of those in power. An owner of a factory has only one motive: profit. A politician in charge of a factors has two: personal gain (career or financial) and profit for the factory.

The politicians in charge overwhelmingly choose to favor the first over the other and the system fails even if the centralized decision making works better than decentralized overall. This is done with the much more crude weapons such as per-election spending splurges, having the control of the entire economy is the populist dictators' wet dream.

This is before we consider other weaknesses, such as risks of a local failure close to the main node crashing the entire decision-making for the economy as a whole.

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I don't think you know much about it. Maybe time to get some research done...
Recommended reading: Eden Medina, Cybernetic Revolutionaries: Technology and Politics in Allende's Chile
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Old 14th June 2017, 02:07 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
I don't think you know much about it. Maybe time to get some research done...
Recommended reading: Eden Medina, Cybernetic Revolutionaries: Technology and Politics in Allende's Chile
Don't get me wrong, the system was impressive from the technical scope and ambition, which is what that book covers. We are only now achieving the state where systems such as these are becoming operational on a corporate level, Chile had a system for the entire country 45 years ago. Whether it was remotely viable with technology of the day is debatable, but that's besides the point.

The point is, in case you missed it, it is inherently bad for the government to be given the ability to control the economy, even more so to give it command economy to play with at will. The people in power have their best interests at heart, not those of the economy or the nation. Those only come in play if they're harmonized with their own personal interests, such as staying in power for one more term. This is the reason why democratic socialism can't work for an extended period of time, not even in theory: it will cease to be one or the other (and sometimes both) within a few election cycles. The first term of the first generation is sometimes clean and has pure motives (I think this applies in Chile, believe it or not), but dirt accumulates in 101 cases out of 100 very soon after that.

How you manage the economy, whether it is through a system of servile yes men (Venezuela), or through a computer system decades ahead of its time is immaterial. Politicians, given the power to run the economy, will, at best, use it as a lever to stay in power and enrich themselves and their friends and family. In most cases they will run it into the ground trying to accomplish the same. Chilean approach was different in that it substituted a parliament filled with yes men with a programmable machine. What they call reforms in Venezuela would be called software upgrades in Chile. That's the main difference as the results would be indistinguishable. They get points for originality I suppose, but that's the best I can say about it.

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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

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Old 14th June 2017, 05:10 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Chile was allowed sufficient time to see just how well it would work.

SNIP SNIP

Chavez was also fortunate to have died just when this economic model ran out of steam. He will be remembered by the mainstream left as the man who did a good job at lifting Venezuelans out of poverty only to have died too soon and his successors lost everything. In reality, the failure of Venezuela is due to mismanagement of the state on all levels by Chavez.

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That is just insane.

Israel and the Netherlands are net food exporters FFS. And these have small land area and are respectively underwater or have to recycle every drop they have.

Yet countries like Venezuela and Chile can't feed themselves as soon as some idiot socialist starts messing with prices.

These countries are vast, sparsely populated and basically a copper mine covered in fertile ground. The mind boggles.

Had I lived in the 1930's or so, I might have considered moving to South America, thinking it would be filthy rich with a great climate and landscape.

A friend of mine is opening a hotel in Argentina. Big mistake. it's turning out to be a hell of labour regulations and import restrictions.
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Old 17th June 2017, 05:24 PM   #590
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Abby interviews the minister of economic planning:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 18th June 2017, 10:48 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Abby interviews the minister of economic planning:

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Wow. I had no idea the Venezuelan government has no blame at all in Venezuelas collapsing economy. It's all the fault of the opposition party and those mysterious people waging economic war against Venezuela.

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Old 18th June 2017, 03:37 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Wow. I had no idea the Venezuelan government has no blame at all in Venezuelas collapsing economy. It's all the fault of the opposition party and those mysterious people waging economic war against Venezuela.
They missed the real culprits.

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Old 18th June 2017, 04:02 PM   #593
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Boys, seriously. Nothing mysterious about it - the show is called "Empire Files".
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Old 18th June 2017, 04:06 PM   #594
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Here's the honourable Tariq Ali explaining it for the slow ones:

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Old 18th June 2017, 08:04 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Boys, seriously. Nothing mysterious about it - the show is called "Empire Files".
Denile. It ain't just a river in Egypt.
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Old 18th June 2017, 08:15 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Denile. It ain't just a river in Egypt.

Yeah, it's a real problem. You with your alien pic answering to your bro with the "mysterious people" are no match to what is actually said in the informational videos I have provided. Sorry. I'm afraid that this will be noticed by people paying attention while your little "creative" deflections will be noticed as well, just not in the way that can help you with your problem.
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Old 18th June 2017, 09:19 PM   #597
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yeah, it's a real problem. You with your alien pic answering to your bro with the "mysterious people" are no match to what is actually said in the informational videos I have provided. Sorry. I'm afraid that this will be noticed by people paying attention while your little "creative" deflections will be noticed as well, just not in the way that can help you with your problem.
Your propaganda video is actually content-free when it comes to they real economics of the situation.
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:25 PM   #598
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Allegedly a helicopter attacked Venezuelan supreme court. No one was injured, but the attacker said he was acting in accordance with article 350 of the constitution that states all Venezuelans are supposed to defend the constitution by any and all means, which the opposition have been also talking about.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/27/am...ack/index.html

There is no firm evidence of anything yet, but the small scale of the attack and given its abysmal efficiency, I suspect a false flag attack by the government to give them the excuse to jail all opposition leaders on the same grounds they imprisoned Leopoldo Lopez ("inciting violence").

If all hell doesn't break loose within the next 12 hours, I'll conclude this is what it was.

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Old 28th June 2017, 02:14 AM   #599
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Trying to find out more about the situation, I searched Reddit for 'Venezuela'.

I found a subreddit called r/venezuelangirls and.....I'm now moving there.


I don't even care if they have food
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Old 28th June 2017, 02:18 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Allegedly a helicopter attacked Venezuelan supreme court. No one was injured, but the attacker said he was acting in accordance with article 350 of the constitution that states all Venezuelans are supposed to defend the constitution by any and all means, which the opposition have been also talking about.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/27/am...ack/index.html

There is no firm evidence of anything yet, but the small scale of the attack and given its abysmal efficiency, I suspect a false flag attack by the government to give them the excuse to jail all opposition leaders on the same grounds they imprisoned Leopoldo Lopez ("inciting violence").

If all hell doesn't break loose within the next 12 hours, I'll conclude this is what it was.

McHrozni
If this guy was legit, he goofed up. Or was tricked into thinking he would get support (like Erdogan did with the recent Turkish "coup").

Let's hope they don't torture him to death.
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