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Old 19th May 2017, 10:12 AM   #41
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Maybe if he didn't mock people with disabilities, brag about grabbing pussy, brag about being a peeping-tom, brag about the married women he wanted to ****, mock women he claims he didn't want to ****, brag about everything he does being the best, biggenest and brightest . . . maybe if he acted more like a president and less like a dick, maybe then he'd be "treated better."
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:58 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Without going to the fascist comparison (our alt-right members get all twitchy), he's not even the worst-treated populist demagogue. Huey Long was hounded by the press, had the New Dealers sic the IRS on him and all his friends and cronies, was lampooned and harpooned in the press and then was kinda killed while on one of his extra-constitutional visits to the Louisiana state house.

On the bright side maybe this generation's Robert Penn Warren will get a Pulitzer Prize winning roman a clef out of Trump's mercurial political career.
You have a point, but a comparasion of Huey Long with Trump is grossly unfair to Trump. Long was a demagogue, but he had a genuine concern for the poor of Louisiana, and would be considered a Liberal in many of his social policies.
He also had a sense of humor, and could shrug off personal attacks. He was a mixture of good and bad like we have seldom seen.
You cannot say those things about Trump.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:02 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's a bit unfair. Political murders in the Netherlands have been quite rare.

Johan de Witt's predecessor Johan van Oldenbarnevelt was executed on trumped-up charges some 50 years earlier, initiated by prince Maurice of Orange, and in 2002, Pim Fortuyn was murdered by an animal rights activist.

Those are the only ones that come to mind. On the other hand, two of them I'd rate among the top-10 Dutch statesmen of all times.


.
I,an American, have to remind you of what happened to William of Orange?
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:03 AM   #44
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Richard the Third and Leon Trotsky say Hi, Donald.....
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Old 19th May 2017, 01:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I,an American, have to remind you of what happened to William of Orange?


And to make the list a bit more complete: before the country united, there was also the murder of Floris V, count of Holland, "the God of the peasants". On instigation of Edward I of England, four of his vassals arrested him. When a large group of peasants came demanding his release, one of the vassals hacked him to death with his sword.
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Old 19th May 2017, 01:54 PM   #46
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Quote:
• Four US presidents have been assassinated while in office. I bet they felt they were treated more unfairly.
Hard to compare the act of a single person with the entire media.

Quote:

• As British historian Dan Snow pointed out, Roman emperor Valerian was "Captured in battle, enslaved, used as a foot-stool, forced to drink molten gold and…"
Same as above. How many people were involved?
[/quote]
Quote:
• Another unfortunate politician was Dutch Prime Minister Johan de Witt, who was lynched and eaten - yes, eaten - by an angry mob in 1672.
Uh, haha you got me there. Still, how big was the mob.

Anyways, I am becoming increasingly concerned about Trump and am not spending a lot of time defending him. Still, these threads are getting stupid.
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Old 19th May 2017, 06:58 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Hard to compare the act of a single person with the entire media.



Same as above. How many people were involved?



Uh, haha you got me there. Still, how big was the mob.

Anyways, I am becoming increasingly concerned about Trump and am not spending a lot of time defending him. Still, these threads are getting stupid.
Mama said, "Stupid is as stupid does". If Stupid-in-Chief would stop saying stupid things, we would spend our leisure hours whinging about how come no one's ever heard of any of the winners of The Voice, even after a dozen seasons.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:04 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
I think he said/meant treated by the press.
Or did he not?
No, he emphasized the 'witch hunt' and the press is only tangentially involved in that.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Mama said, "Stupid is as stupid does". If Stupid-in-Chief would stop saying stupid things, we would spend our leisure hours whinging about how come no one's ever heard of any of the winners of The Voice, even after a dozen seasons.
Except Christina Grimmie, sadly. A lot of us remember her.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:13 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Hard to compare the act of a single person with the entire media.



Same as above. How many people were involved?



Uh, haha you got me there. Still, how big was the mob.

Anyways, I am becoming increasingly concerned about Trump and am not spending a lot of time defending him. Still, these threads are getting stupid.

Generally speaking, the 'entire media' has not been unfair to Trump. He often has deserved more derision and condemnation than he has received.

It is in no way unfair to condemn that which aught be condemned.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:41 PM   #51
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Unfair treatment implies he doesn't deserve it....
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
According to Trump, "No politician in history...has been treated worse or more unfairly [as himself]".
That's Trump - always has to be the best at everything.

What's next?

'No president in history... has been worse or treated people more unfairly as [himself]'.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
According to Trump, "No politician in history...has been treated worse or more unfairly [as himself]". I think a fair few politicians might disagree.

• Four US presidents have been assassinated while in office. I bet they felt they were treated more unfairly.

• As British historian Dan Snow pointed out, Roman emperor Valerian was "Captured in battle, enslaved, used as a foot-stool, forced to drink molten gold and…"

• Another unfortunate politician was Dutch Prime Minister Johan de Witt, who was lynched and eaten - yes, eaten - by an angry mob in 1672.

Does anyone have any more?

I can only assume that what Trump meant was: "No politician in US history...has been treated worse or more unfairly by his fellow Americans".

In this case the whole original post is mood and needs it's goalposts to be moved acordingly.

By the way: every thread about Trump in here should start with:
So what does he actually mean when he....

No kidding

Last edited by Oliver; 20th May 2017 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I can only assume that what Trump meant was: "No politician in US history...has been treated worse or more unfairly by his fellow Americans".

In this case the whole original post is mood and needs it's goalposts to be moved acordingly.

By the way: every thread about Trump in here should start with:
So what does he actually mean when he....

No kidding
I don't often care what he actually means. When you're the president, words matter. If he says he fired Comey to get the pressure of the Russia investigation off his back then that's what he said. Just because he and his surrogates tell us not to take him literally doesn't mean we aren't going to.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I don't often care what he actually means. When you're the president, words matter. If he says he fired Comey to get the pressure of the Russia investigation off his back then that's what he said. Just because he and his surrogates tell us not to take him literally doesn't mean we aren't going to.

When the words that matter are about policies, I tend to agree. But since you literally have a president that looks exactly like a meme 4chan invented and got elected - just to piss off people, it isn't helpful to turn every brainfart of Trump into a major talking point for days or weeks.

You know, Trump is the type of guy you have to watch closeley as to what he does policywise - and not get fooled by what he or other people say and speculate about him. It simply didn't work during the election and doesn't work in the future. My 2 cents, those are.

Last edited by Oliver; 20th May 2017 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:38 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I don't often care what he actually means. When you're the president, words matter. If he says he fired Comey to get the pressure of the Russia investigation off his back then that's what he said. Just because he and his surrogates tell us not to take him literally doesn't mean we aren't going to or should.
Just a small addition.
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
When the words that matter are about policies, I tend to agree. But since you literally have a president that looks exactly like a meme 4chan invented and got elected - just to piss off people, it isn't helpful to turn every brainfart of Trump into a major talking point for days or weeks.

.
Why not? It hurts him.
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Old 20th May 2017, 11:03 AM   #58
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Would Edward II feel more aggrieved than him? Boyfriend murdered and then another one castrated, finally killed off with a red hot poker up the bum.
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Old 20th May 2017, 12:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
At least they sewed his head back on. Learn something new every day.
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Old 20th May 2017, 10:10 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They were activists, not politicians.
Nelson Mandela was the first black South African president. He was certainly an activist but still a politician.

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Old 20th May 2017, 11:13 PM   #61
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Ned Stark had his head cut off, his wife's throat slit and his oldest son was shot by crossbows and killed with a sword.

Match that Mr Trump!
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Old 21st May 2017, 12:09 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
According to Trump, "No politician in history...has been treated worse or more unfairly [as himself]". I think a fair few politicians might disagree.

• Four US presidents have been assassinated while in office. I bet they felt they were treated more unfairly.

• As British historian Dan Snow pointed out, Roman emperor Valerian was "Captured in battle, enslaved, used as a foot-stool, forced to drink molten gold and…"

• Another unfortunate politician was Dutch Prime Minister Johan de Witt, who was lynched and eaten - yes, eaten - by an angry mob in 1672.

Does anyone have any more?
I'd start with each of his three predecesors, to keep things recent.
Clinton - impeached over consensual intercourse.
Bush - kept being presented as a retarded monkey over comments made by his fathers' vice president over a decade prior.
Obama - constantly harassed over his middle name and alledged foreign birth.

And worse applies in all three cases.

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Old 21st May 2017, 12:34 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's a bit unfair. Political murders in the Netherlands have been quite rare.

Johan de Witt's predecessor Johan van Oldenbarnevelt was executed on trumped-up charges some 50 years earlier, initiated by prince Maurice of Orange, and in 2002, Pim Fortuyn was murdered by an animal rights activist.

Those are the only ones that come to mind. On the other hand, two of them I'd rate among the top-10 Dutch statesmen of all times.


And while we're on the topic of the last days of the Roman Republic:
1) Sulla's proscriptions of 82BC against Marius supporters (Caesar lucked out there, being Marius' nephew)
2) Octavius' proscriptions against their political opponents, including Cicero.

Oh, and I think Charles I of England and Louis XVI of France would also like to have a word with the Orange Führer on this topic.
Caesar, and Charles I were treated harshly,but I wouldn't say that they were treated unfairly. Clinton and Obama were treated unfairly, but nowhere near as harshly.
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Old 21st May 2017, 12:42 AM   #64
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The irony of Trump turning into the biggest Snowflake on the planet......
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Old 21st May 2017, 12:46 AM   #65
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How many politicians were victims of Joseph McCarthy? Most of *those* didn't have dubious links to Russia.
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Old 21st May 2017, 12:47 AM   #66
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Keep in mind he said this during a commencement speech at the Coast Guard Academy.

And some people pretend that there is nothing wrong with him mentally.
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:31 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Keep in mind he said this during a commencement speech at the Coast Guard Academy.

And some people pretend that there is nothing wrong with him mentally.
I think that now, most are saying that there is something not right about him but that it is somehow wrong to speculate without being his psychiatrist, whereupon it would violate patient confidentiality. (I would agree about patient confidentiality, unless to correct an incorrect assertion by their patient about their professional opinion).


I also don't see why mental illness is defined as causing harm or distress to the patient. That would rule out Nero or Caligula from being described as being mentally ill for a lot of their lives.
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:43 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that now, most are saying that there is something not right about him but that it is somehow wrong to speculate without being his psychiatrist, whereupon it would violate patient confidentiality. (I would agree about patient confidentiality, unless to correct an incorrect assertion by their patient about their professional opinion).


I also don't see why mental illness is defined as causing harm or distress to the patient. That would rule out Nero or Caligula from being described as being mentally ill for a lot of their lives.
I think his mental problems cause him great distress. For example, the media reporting all of his ****ups makes him so distressed that he feels the need to whine about how mean they are to him. During a commencement address at the Coast Guard Academy.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:32 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Alisa View Post
Nelson Mandela was the first black South African president. He was certainly an activist but still a politician.

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He entered politics after suffering mistreatment as an activist.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:03 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He entered politics after suffering mistreatment as an activist.
Don't you think it's a bit overblown to call him just an activist? As a prominent member of the ANC, he'd loved to have entered politics in the 1960s. It was South-African apartheid laws which proscribed him from that due to his melanin count.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:27 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Caesar, and Charles I were treated harshly,but I wouldn't say that they were treated unfairly. Clinton and Obama were treated unfairly, but nowhere near as harshly.
Trump's words were "No politician in history, and I say this with great surety, has been treated worse or more unfairly". Note the "or", which means that everyone qualifies who satisfies either of the two criteria. IMHO, Trump is treated very fairly, so if anyone was treated unfairly, I'll leave out the "more unfairly [than Trump]" as it's a logical corollary.

I agree that Charles I was treated worse and fairlly. Louis XVI of France ditto. Caesar was treated worse than Trump; the question whether he was treated unfairly - or more unfairly than Trump - in the context of the breakdown of the Roman Republican constitution, is worth its own thread over in History.

Johan de Witt (and his brother Cornelis) was treated worse, and unfairly. He had, as raadspensionaris (in modern terms, PM and FM rolled into one), steered the ship of state for 20 years between the cliffs of the great Western European powers of England and France. The breakdown of that is mainly due to the treacherous conduct of your crypto-Catholic king Charles II, and, actually, Parliament quickly took England out of the war after De Ruyter knocked your fleet out of the water.

At the time of his murder, Johan de Witt had already resigned as raadspensionaris, and William III of Orange (your later King Billy) had already been installed as stadtholder. A recent study on the murder of the brothers De Witt claims that they were already killed by a small band of conspirators before the mob got their hands on their corpses. Those conspirators all had ties to Willem, and all were rewarded with money and offices. It's not clear if William III was an active conspirator, but at best it's a LIHOP.

Van Oldenbarnevelt had led the country after the 1584 assassination of Willam the Silent, the failed support of good-for-nothing Anjou and the treachery of Leicester, through its most critical times, and in 1618, was condemned to death by a kangaroo court instituted by prince Maurice of Orange. According to at least one historian, Maurice still held a grudge from the 1600 campaign. The object of that campaign was to take out the Dunkirk corsairs who harmed Dutch trade, and in doing so, also relieve pressure off Ostend, which was still a Dutch enclave in Spanish-controlled Flanders at the time. Maurice thought the States-General had given him insufficient money (and thus men) for the campaign. He was ambushed on the beach near Nieuwpoort by Spanish troops. The brilliant general he was, he still carried the day but had insufficient forces left to continue to Dunkirk.

Yes, in two of the most high-profile political murders in the Netherlands, the Oranges were implicated.

The Clintons were definitely treated unfairly, IMHO, and also worse. There's been a cottage industry now for 25 years that tries to spin every aspect of their lives into a conspiracy. Ken Starr was appointed as Special Counsel to investigate Whitewater, but expanded this to every conceivable angle these CT-ers brought up, including into peeking into Bill's bedroom. This cottage industry financed every female loon they could find that ever had contact with Bill and was willing to claim sexual harassment. The amount of false allegations against the Clintons is breathtaking. The latest I came across is that Hilllary would have been fired for cause from the team that prepared Nixon's impeachment articles. No, she was not.

Obama was treated unfairly and, IMHO, worse by Trump, Joe Arpaio, and whats-her-name, that Moldovan dentist/realtor/lawyer, by keeping alive the bitrherism-nonsense for years on end. No single Trump-scandal (which are all credible IMHO) has had that longevity.
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:21 AM   #72
Craig4
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I would concede the point that he's the worst treated PRESIDENT in modern history. Nothing unfair about it though.
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:30 AM   #73
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MLK wasn't treated too well.

Fox and Friends is treating Trump unfairly. They're very lenient.
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

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Old 21st May 2017, 07:57 AM   #74
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President Palmer, i'll get my coat.
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:57 AM   #75
ddt
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
MLK wasn't treated too well.

Fox and Friends is treating Trump unfairly. They're very lenient.


Oh, and nobody mentioned RFK yet?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 11:35 AM   #76
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Short of being murdered, John McCain was treated about the worst that any politician has ever been treated.
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