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Tags Nicolas Maduro , Venezuela economy , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 20th September 2013, 12:32 PM   #81
aleCcowaN
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Inventing the Enemy by Umberto Eco. His essays revolve around the theory. These fora contain a lot of real life examples.

On the other hand it's well known that the CIA has -and never had- nothing to do with any kind of activity related to the word "enemy", so trying to put down a conspiracy to the CIA is like trying to put down evil deeds to Mother Teresa.
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Old 20th September 2013, 12:37 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Columbia.

Perverting the name "America" was a cultural development in the 1800s. It's not that they're not American, but as I answered many a time in Europe: "-Are you American? -Yes, I'm Argentine".
The correct answer was "No, I am Argentine."
I am an American.
You are not, you are an Argeentine.
Thanks for explaining yourself.
Cheers.
The question refers to a country not a geo region.
Example: Are you German?
No, I am French.

PS: I was born in the District of Columbia. That does not make me Columbian, it makes me American. Welcome to 2013. Sorry about your problem with the Falland Islands.
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Last edited by Darth Rotor; 20th September 2013 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 20th September 2013, 01:27 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
The correct answer was "No, I am Argentine."
I am an American.
You are not, you are an Argeentine.
Thanks for explaining yourself.
Cheers.
The question refers to a country not a geo region.
Example: Are you German?
No, I am French.

PS: I was born in the District of Columbia. That does not make me Columbian, it makes me American. Welcome to 2013. Sorry about your problem with the Falland Islands.
you are US american, and you are both Anericans
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Old 20th September 2013, 02:01 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
The correct answer was "No, I am Argentine."
I am an American.
You are not, you are an Argeentine.
Thanks for explaining yourself.
Cheers.
The question refers to a country not a geo region.
Example: Are you German?
No, I am French.

PS: I was born in the District of Columbia. That does not make me Columbian, it makes me American. Welcome to 2013. Sorry about your problem with the Falland Islands.
A bit of cheap chauvinism in forums.randi.org? How original

Sorry, I'm both proudly an American and an Argentine (without double e) and you won't change that fact with your preach. But I'm curious about your take on Monroe's "America for the Americans"; I bet that in your words it'd look more like a confession in the lines of the conspiracy electrical theories outlined in previous posts.
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Old 21st September 2013, 04:59 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
A bit of cheap chauvinism in forums.randi.org? How original

Sorry, I'm both proudly an American and an Argentine (without double e) and you won't change that fact with your preach. But I'm curious about your take on Monroe's "America for the Americans"; I bet that in your words it'd look more like a confession in the lines of the conspiracy electrical theories outlined in previous posts.
Welcome to the year 2013. Usage has advanced considerably since 1809. Hadn't thee noticed?

The Monroe Doctrine was a rebuke to the continuing European, Monarchical and Imperial Colonialism of the New World. It was also, in a certain way, a challenge, a gauntlet cast.
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Old 21st September 2013, 07:46 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
well considering history, yes ist very plausible. Ist not like the CIA would never ever do something like that.
but yeah the Venezuelan government has also a history of incompetence and corruption.
Yes, it's just as likely to be caused by a CIA plot for which there is no evidence than by the incompetence of the government officials who have skimped on necessary maintenance for which there is lots of evidence.
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Old 21st September 2013, 10:59 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
A bit of cheap chauvinism in forums.randi.org? How original
That is an illogical response. The fact of the matter is that "American" has become synonymous with US citizen. That's not chauvinism, it's just an observation. People who like the US use the term that way, and people who hate the US use it that way. Its use as such tells one nothing about the speaker, because it's standard usage.

Quote:
Sorry, I'm both proudly an American and an Argentine (without double e) and you won't change that fact with your preach.
You can insist upon this all you like, but it doesn't matter, people aren't going to stop using "American" as synonymous with US citizen. You aren't educating anyone with your insistence, you're just broadcasting your personal peeves. But it's like trying to bring back the long s: just let it go, it's too late.

Quote:
But I'm curious about your take on Monroe's "America for the Americans"; I bet that in your words it'd look more like a confession in the lines of the conspiracy electrical theories outlined in previous posts.
I ſuggeſt you find more productive meanſ of reſolving your iſſueſ than tilting at linguiſtic windmillſ.
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Old 22nd September 2013, 04:12 AM   #88
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Is it a slow weekend, old chumps?

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Welcome to the year 2013. Usage has advanced considerably since 1809. Hadn't thee noticed?
Oh, yes! What a progress! "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal", something that became real in no time. The appropriation of a continental demonym is part of that cultural tendency of saying something and doing otherwise. We all know what "a real American" and "not a real American" mean to people like YOU.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
The Monroe Doctrine was a rebuke to the continuing European, Monarchical and Imperial Colonialism of the New World. It was also, in a certain way, a challenge, a gauntlet cast.
It was pretty obvious I asked you what Americans means in that phrase and what would have implied to have your "definition" applied there. Don't reply with an eighth grade like synopsis laid out after reading Wikipedia.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is an illogical response. The fact of the matter is that "American" has become synonymous with US citizen. That's not chauvinism, it's just an observation....
You are replying to what YOU think it was my motivation. The well deserved chauvinist bit comes from the -pretty typical among his/her folks, specially when they are the typical uneducated coot- attitude of denying the Americanity is everyone else who is not an Usian (I can't use Americanist because all this family of words has been twisted each one in a different direction) all of this as a part of their inveterate "Americanism".

Let's recapitulate: You're saying that

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
The correct answer was "No, I am Argentine."
I am an American.
You are not, you are an Argeentine.
Thanks for explaining yourself.
Cheers.
The question refers to a country not a geo region.
Example: Are you German?
No, I am French.

PS: I was born in the District of Columbia. That does not make me Columbian, it makes me American. Welcome to 2013. Sorry about your problem with the Falland Islands.
is just a simple observation and it's not tinted with chauvinism at all? (Remember that parkinsonism doesn't impair judgement). Please, take up again from here.

Just to save yourself to take the wrong direction, again, I'm not saying that people from the United States are not American.
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Old 22nd September 2013, 05:44 AM   #89
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according to wiki America is a ghost town located at 33°48′56″N 94°32′58″W
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Old 22nd September 2013, 03:09 PM   #90
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Venezuelan government takes over toilet paper factory.
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Old 22nd September 2013, 03:54 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Another evil CIA plot foiled!
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Old 22nd September 2013, 04:26 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
according to wiki America is a ghost town located at 33°48′56″N 94°32′58″W
What a coincidence, all of Venezuela is on the road to be a ghost town too!
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Old 22nd September 2013, 04:45 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Another evil CIA plot foiled!
Yes, the CIA has been campaigning for Venezuelans to use toilet paper both sides in order to expend it half speed. That's why military action was needed.
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Old 22nd September 2013, 04:48 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Yes, the CIA has been campaigning for Venezuelans to use toilet paper both sides in order to expend it half speed. That's why military action was needed.
Obama never should have named Sheryl Crow as CIA director.
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Old 22nd September 2013, 10:11 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Quote:
"The ... People's Defense from the Economy will not allow hoarding or failures in the production and distribution of essential commodities," the vice president said.

By the "People's Defense," Arreaza was referring to a government agency created on September 13 by President Nicolas Maduro to "defeat the economic war that has been declared in the country," according to a report from state-run ATV.
Ah, so that's what it's about, defending the People from the Economy. They might some day declare total victory there: The People are safe when the Economy is no more.
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Old 26th September 2013, 04:02 AM   #96
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The revolutionaries must be flushed with delight at this wiping out of the crap the capitalists have thrown at them
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Old 26th September 2013, 05:56 AM   #97
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Good quality bog roll is one of the first things to go under socialism. Under the Soviet Union they had brittle, paper-like stuff. Bog roll jokes were one of the most common when the Red Guards and secret police weren't in earshot. Like how it's better to wipe your ass with the pages of Izvestia.

No doubt the party officials had good stuff smuggled in from the West.
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Old 26th September 2013, 05:59 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Good quality bog roll is one of the first things to go under socialism. Under the Soviet Union they had brittle, paper-like stuff. Bog roll jokes were one of the most common when the Red Guards and secret police weren't in earshot. Like how it's better to wipe your ass with the pages of Izvestia.

No doubt the party officials had good stuff smuggled in from the West.
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Old 26th September 2013, 06:51 AM   #99
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Some sort of conversation continues here as if Venezuelan government were leftist indeed, as if shortage driven by central planning were the same as shortage driven by price intervention, as if shortage in supply were automatically solved by price levels.

Maybe the predominant red colour -as in the Nazi flag, another socialist party- has driven some people into mixing up left-like egalitarian folklore with realpolitik.
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Old 26th September 2013, 06:54 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Some sort of conversation continues here as if Venezuelan government were leftist indeed, as if shortage driven by central planning were the same as shortage driven by price intervention, as if shortage in supply were automatically solved by price levels.

Maybe the predominant red colour -as in the Nazi flag, another socialist party- has driven some people into mixing up left-like egalitarian folklore with realpolitik.
So what definition of "leftist" are you using?

Sounds like a "no true Scotsman" argument.
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Old 26th September 2013, 08:40 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
So what definition of "leftist" are you using?

Sounds like a "no true Scotsman" argument.
Really? What are using youse?

Be sure that mine is neither waiving red flags in an authoritarian setting, concentrating power and telling they are doing it for "the people" and against devilish Uncle Sam, nor a residual definition come from growing during the Cold War and reading Reader's Digest.

For brevity, I can reply to you with an excerpt of the "prologue to the French" (1937) of The Revolt of the Masses (1926-1929) by Ortega y Gasset (my translation): "Being a leftist is, alike being a right-winger, one of the infinite ways a person can choose to become an imbecile: both indeed are ways of moral hemiplegia. Besides, the persistence of such classifiers strongly contributes to further falsify the "reality" of contemporary times, fake as it is already, as they have curled the curl of such political experiences they belonged, what is proven by the fact of right-wings promising revolutions while the left proposes tyrannies."
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Old 26th September 2013, 10:27 AM   #102
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I think we can agree that we have a uselessly fuzzy category here?
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Old 26th September 2013, 10:28 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Be sure that mine is neither waiving red flags in an authoritarian setting, concentrating power and telling they are doing it for "the people" and against devilish Uncle Sam, nor a residual definition come from growing during the Cold War and reading Reader's Digest.
I don't think Wildcat cares what you call or don't call yourself. His point was about Venezuela. And it is being ruled by leftists. They fit the label. They apply the label to themselves. You can argue about the extent to which you think that's a defining or even relevant category in regards to the economic trainwreck they're experiencing, but it's silly to simply deny that they're leftists, because they are.
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Old 26th September 2013, 11:12 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think Wildcat cares what you call or don't call yourself. His point was about Venezuela. And it is being ruled by leftists. They fit the label. They apply the label to themselves. You can argue about the extent to which you think that's a defining or even relevant category in regards to the economic trainwreck they're experiencing, but it's silly to simply deny that they're leftists, because they are.
I agree, but the category is so damned broad.
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Old 26th September 2013, 12:07 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think Wildcat cares what you call or don't call yourself. His point was about Venezuela. And it is being ruled by leftists. They fit the label. They apply the label to themselves. You can argue about the extent to which you think that's a defining or even relevant category in regards to the economic trainwreck they're experiencing, but it's silly to simply deny that they're leftists, because they are.
Where do you get your information? Fox News?

Being the category "political left" so darn broad, can you explain then why the majority of parties in Venezuelan left are part of the Democratic Unity Roundtable (against Chavism)? Why Marxist-Leninist Bandera Roja is part of it? Why even-more-to-the-left Vanguardia Popular is? Why progressivist Avanzada Popular, Cuentas Claras and Voluntad Popular are? Why all the greens are? Why socialist Movimiento al Socialismo, Movimiento Progresista de Venezuela and Un Nuevo Tiempo are? Why so many politicians of Chavism originated in the military and right-wing parties? Such developments are not unusual all around the world.

If you want to learn a little politics, you may compare Uruguayan government -which is really leftist, the modern way- with Venezuelan government -who claims to be leftist, though it is basically world class vanilla populism with a touch of indigenism-. Do you think North Korea is really socialist? that the people rules North Korea? I bet South Korea is much more legitimate socialist than their Northern doppelgänger.

If you are going to criticize the fail of the left, why don't you criticize Norway and Finland instead? Why don't you criticize Colombian -with "o"- president Santos, and Brazilian president Rousseff, both belonging to parties affiliated to the Socialist International and São Paulo Forum, respectively? Are Chavists being truly Socialist while Santos and Rousseff are phony Socialist? How do you know?

Pals, it looks here that you have gruesomely exceed what you really know about politics and acted like chaps living in the boondocks in the Eastern Hemisphere that thinks that the Democratic Party must loathe the republican institutions and Republicans must hate democracy. The reality is that labels are just labels, and the failure of Venezuelan government is as much caused by the systematic fail of Socialism as the turmoil in Greek's economy is caused by the systematic fail of Capitalism.

It happens that countries are governed by ambitious idiots and those idiots have an ideology. How ideologies promote the emergence of such idiots, that's a good topic to discuss.

And, by the way, for background information, in my country I'm considered to be a liberal, which here means I'm from the right-wing (though left-wingers consider me a person whom they can talk), and I supposedly should sympathize with Ted Cruz if I don't supposedly find him so wanting in class manners . That should be enough to illustrate how dangerous is let oneself to be misguided by labels.
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Old 26th September 2013, 01:46 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Where do you get your information? Fox News?

Being the category "political left" so darn broad, can you explain then why the majority of parties in Venezuelan left are part of the Democratic Unity Roundtable (against Chavism)? Why Marxist-Leninist Bandera Roja is part of it? Why even-more-to-the-left Vanguardia Popular is? Why progressivist Avanzada Popular, Cuentas Claras and Voluntad Popular are? Why all the greens are? Why socialist Movimiento al Socialismo, Movimiento Progresista de Venezuela and Un Nuevo Tiempo are? Why so many politicians of Chavism originated in the military and right-wing parties? Such developments are not unusual all around the world.
Big deal. All lefty looney parties hate each other.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
If you want to learn a little politics, you may compare Uruguayan government -which is really leftist, the modern way- with Venezuelan government -who claims to be leftist, though it is basically world class vanilla populism with a touch of indigenism-. Do you think North Korea is really socialist? that the people rules North Korea? I bet South Korea is much more legitimate socialist than their Northern doppelgänger.

If you are going to criticize the fail of the left, why don't you criticize Norway and Finland instead? Why don't you criticize Colombian -with "o"- president Santos, and Brazilian president Rousseff, both belonging to parties affiliated to the Socialist International and São Paulo Forum, respectively? Are Chavists being truly Socialist while Santos and Rousseff are phony Socialist? How do you know?

Pals, it looks here that you have gruesomely exceed what you really know about politics and acted like chaps living in the boondocks in the Eastern Hemisphere that thinks that the Democratic Party must loathe the republican institutions and Republicans must hate democracy. The reality is that labels are just labels, and the failure of Venezuelan government is as much caused by the systematic fail of Socialism as the turmoil in Greek's economy is caused by the systematic fail of Capitalism.

It happens that countries are governed by ambitious idiots and those idiots have an ideology. How ideologies promote the emergence of such idiots, that's a good topic to discuss.

And, by the way, for background information, in my country I'm considered to be a liberal, which here means I'm from the right-wing (though left-wingers consider me a person whom they can talk), and I supposedly should sympathize with Ted Cruz if I don't supposedly find him so wanting in class manners . That should be enough to illustrate how dangerous is let oneself to be misguided by labels.
Anyone that tries that hard to convince people they're not a leftist, is definitely a leftist.
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Old 26th September 2013, 02:08 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Where do you get your information? Fox News?
It's funny how often you decry the supposed ignorance and bias of Americans (yes, I'm using that to mean US citizens, and yes, that is correct usage), yet you enthusiastically stereotype out of ignorance yourself. You don't know me, and you clearly don't know where I get my information.

Quote:
Being the category "political left" so darn broad,
Yes, it is broad. And there is an argument to be made that it's sufficiently broad to be not particularly useful here. But that's not the argument you tried to make. You tried to simply deny that it was even true, which is nonsense.

Quote:
can you explain then why the majority of parties in Venezuelan left are part of the Democratic Unity Roundtable (against Chavism)?
Can you explain why Stalin assassinated Trotsky if Trotsky was communist?

There are lots and lots of potential reasons for such splits, from personal power struggles (Chavez didn't give me what I want) to ideological (they're leftists, but not leftist enough) to the pragmatic (they're morons who are screwing it all up with incompetence). All of this could be the basis for an argument about why the categorization isn't useful, but again, NONE of it means that the categorization isn't true.

Quote:
If you are going to criticize the fail of the left, why don't you criticize Norway and Finland instead?
Because that's not what I'm doing. I'm not arguing that this is a fail "of the left". That's other people's argument. I'm simply stating, as a fact, that the Chavistas are leftists. This is incontrovertible. Argue all you want to about the significance of that observation, but the observation itself is true, and it's getting more and more ridiculous for you to pretend otherwise. You made a mistake to dispute that they are leftists at all, rather than disputing that it's the relevant quality for their failures, and I called you on it. Had you simply used the latter argument instead of the former, I doubt I would have interjected on this point at all.
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Old 26th September 2013, 03:15 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's funny how often you decry the supposed ignorance and bias of Americans (yes, I'm using that to mean US citizens, and yes, that is correct usage)...

what do you call folks from here?

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Old 26th September 2013, 04:50 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
what do you call folks from here?
Trick question: nobody is from there.
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Old 26th September 2013, 05:25 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat
Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
what do you call folks from here?
Trick question: nobody is from there.

ahem, as per the 2001 census, 12,361.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A...Aires_Province
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Old 26th September 2013, 07:13 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Where do you get your information? Fox News?

Being the category "political left" so darn broad, can you explain then why the majority of parties in Venezuelan left are part of the Democratic Unity Roundtable (against Chavism)? Why Marxist-Leninist Bandera Roja is part of it? Why even-more-to-the-left Vanguardia Popular is? Why progressivist Avanzada Popular, Cuentas Claras and Voluntad Popular are? Why all the greens are? Why socialist Movimiento al Socialismo, Movimiento Progresista de Venezuela and Un Nuevo Tiempo are? Why so many politicians of Chavism originated in the military and right-wing parties? Such developments are not unusual all around the world.

If you want to learn a little politics, you may compare Uruguayan government -which is really leftist, the modern way- with Venezuelan government -who claims to be leftist, though it is basically world class vanilla populism with a touch of indigenism-. Do you think North Korea is really socialist? that the people rules North Korea? I bet South Korea is much more legitimate socialist than their Northern doppelgänger.

If you are going to criticize the fail of the left, why don't you criticize Norway and Finland instead? Why don't you criticize Colombian -with "o"- president Santos, and Brazilian president Rousseff, both belonging to parties affiliated to the Socialist International and São Paulo Forum, respectively? Are Chavists being truly Socialist while Santos and Rousseff are phony Socialist? How do you know?

Pals, it looks here that you have gruesomely exceed what you really know about politics and acted like chaps living in the boondocks in the Eastern Hemisphere that thinks that the Democratic Party must loathe the republican institutions and Republicans must hate democracy. The reality is that labels are just labels, and the failure of Venezuelan government is as much caused by the systematic fail of Socialism as the turmoil in Greek's economy is caused by the systematic fail of Capitalism.

It happens that countries are governed by ambitious idiots and those idiots have an ideology. How ideologies promote the emergence of such idiots, that's a good topic to discuss.

And, by the way, for background information, in my country I'm considered to be a liberal, which here means I'm from the right-wing (though left-wingers consider me a person whom they can talk), and I supposedly should sympathize with Ted Cruz if I don't supposedly find him so wanting in class manners . That should be enough to illustrate how dangerous is let oneself to be misguided by labels.
So you're sticking with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy eh?
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Old 27th September 2013, 02:53 AM   #112
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They call themselves socialists and leftists.
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Old 27th September 2013, 06:10 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
ahem, as per the 2001 census, 12,361.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A...Aires_Province
I guess they're all hiding, 'cause I didn't see anyone in that picture.

But *I* would call people from América (the city) "Argentinian".
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Old 27th September 2013, 06:33 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Itrying to put down a conspiracy to the CIA is like trying to put down evil deeds to Mother Teresa.
Just FYI, someone has done that.
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Old 27th September 2013, 06:46 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Trick question: nobody is from there.
Remind me to thank him for dealing with that pain in the ass cyclops.
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Old 27th September 2013, 07:07 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Remind me to thank him for dealing with that pain in the ass cyclops.
Somebody remembers their classics.
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Old 28th September 2013, 06:35 AM   #117
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If I self identify as a Christian, then it is fair to call me Christian.

If I self identify as being from the political left (to whatever degree) it is at least partly fair to call me leftist ... but as noted by numerous posters in this thread, "leftist" seems to connote different things to different people.

Let us illustrate something here.

FAR LEFT...LEFT...LEFT CENTER...CENTER...RIGHT CENTER...RIGHT...FAR RIGHT

Is anyone not "at center" necessarily 'Rightist' or 'Leftist' in a given discussion? What does that mean? Whatever you want it to mean.

What those locations seem to imply is how far one needs to walk to get water from the Seine, and that the folks in CENTER are either on an island, in a boat, or swimming. (I have a vague memory of left and right originally being a reference to which bank of the Seine someone tended to hail from ... during the age of revolution ... 1840's ... but that memory may be off center.)

Those who attempt to goal post move the nationality "American" to a continental region demonstrate a penchant for deliberate falsehood, engaging in a wind up, or both.

Back to the topic:
Left or Right seems to have little to do with electricity. Keeping a national power grid up and running requires technical competence and sound policy. Lack of that may or may not have to do with how far from the Seine one goes shopping in Paris. I would not call the government in Iraq leftist, but they still have trouble keeping their power grid up.
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Old 1st October 2013, 10:45 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
well all we know is that one side claims its incompetence and corruption and the other side claims its a conspiracy.
and considering history, both claims seem plausible.
you are not trying to find out information, you merely attacked another poster for atacking another poster, and i attack you for it. get over it and try to really find information instead of pretending to.
You think it's plausible the rolling blackouts in Venezuela are a CIA conspiracy?
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Old 2nd October 2013, 10:52 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
You think it's plausible the rolling blackouts in Venezuela are a CIA conspiracy?
That's the version of events Maduro is going with:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/wo...wo-others.html
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Old 3rd October 2013, 12:13 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's the version of events Maduro is going with:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/wo...wo-others.html
It's the very best his pathetic proto-intellect can do, blame saboteurs and US agents. Very few will believe him, and his sole claim to power by now seems to be that he's the heir of Chavez and he 'won' an election. I suspect the only reason he's still in power is because PVDSA knows they can't fake an election victory that would be believed by anyone with an IQ greater than room temperature. In Celsius.

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