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Old 8th May 2017, 05:18 AM   #1
lionking
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New Zealand's shameful child murder history

I've been listening to a podcast of the murders of the Khaui twins. The accused, and guilty as sin in my view, father Chris Kahui, was found not guilty after a jury "deliberation" of about a minute.

Have a look at this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11608031

Quote:
New Zealand has the fifth-worst child abuse record of 31 OECD countries. On average, a child is killed here every five weeks. In the last half of 2015, Child Youth and Family recorded 8800 cases of child abuse and neglect.
Hang your heads in shame New Zealanders. Two infants have been killed and the murderer is walking free. But more importantly, what is happening about this child murder rate?

Hang your heads in shame Kiwis.
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Old 8th May 2017, 05:43 AM   #2
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So who are the top 4?
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Old 8th May 2017, 05:52 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
So who are the top 4?
Really? That's your take from this?

NZ fancies itself as one of the paragon of social justice. Yet it tolerates stuff like this.
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Old 8th May 2017, 05:55 AM   #4
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There's an elephant in the room Kiwis want to ignore. But let's just concentrate on the Khaui case.
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Old 8th May 2017, 06:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Really? That's your take from this?

NZ fancies itself as one of the paragon of social justice. Yet it tolerates stuff like this.
They do? I lived there for a long time and didn't get that?

And, yes, I'm interested in the worse four.

Why concentrate on one case? There are miscarriages of justice everywhere. That article appeals to every emotion in the book, but is rather light on facts.

Why was he aquitted?
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:15 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I've been listening to a podcast of the murders of the Khaui twins. The accused, and guilty as sin in my view, father Chris Kahui, was found not guilty after a jury "deliberation" of about a minute.
Why are you blaming the jury? If they took less than a minute to acquit then the trial must have presented the weakest case ever.

Blame the prosecutor/investigators if you must.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:22 AM   #7
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I have not read Ian Wishart's book but it is probably authentic.

https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Sile...ds=ian+wishart

On kindle for about $10
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Old 9th May 2017, 01:03 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I've been listening to a podcast of the murders of the Khaui twins. The accused, and guilty as sin in my view, father Chris Kahui, was found not guilty after a jury "deliberation" of about a minute.

Have a look at this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11608031



Hang your heads in shame New Zealanders. Two infants have been killed and the murderer is walking free.
But more importantly, what is happening about this child murder rate?

Hang your heads in shame Kiwis.

1. Why should I be ashamed of something I had nothing to do with. I didn't kill those children, I'm am not part of the family, and I wasn't on the jury. Am I appalled at what happened, yes? Am I concerned? You bet! Am I ashamed? Not at all.

2. I very much doubt that Chris Kahui was the sole killer, if he was even the killer at all. The REAL culprits in this case, other than the killer(s) of course, are the family. They closed ranks around the killer(s), and refused to talk to Police. There is a lot more to this story than that dickhead Wishart knows, but the family still refuses to talk.

3. This is a case of systematic family child abuse leading to the child's death (I use that phrasing to distance this murder and murders like it from stranger abduction & murder cases like Kirsa Jensen, Teresa Cormack, and Tracy Ann Patient) In Family Violence murder cases, there is a higher than statistically predicted involvement of certain ethnic groups. Some will call me a racist for saying this, but the facts don't lie. Ask any child advocate or social worker in NZ dealing with family violence who the greatest proportion of perpetrators are. They will tell you that certain ethnic groups making up less than 25% of the general population in this country commit more than 80% of the family violence. They will only tell you "off the record" because they can lose their jobs if they tell the truth. You will also find statistics very difficult to find. They are there if you look for them hard enough, but Statistics NZ do not publish them in any meaningful or easy to find form.
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Old 9th May 2017, 08:02 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Why should I be ashamed of something I had nothing to do with. I didn't kill those children, I'm am not part of the family, and I wasn't on the jury. Am I appalled at what happened, yes? Am I concerned? You bet! Am I ashamed? Not at all.

2. I very much doubt that Chris Kahui was the sole killer, if he was even the killer at all. The REAL culprits in this case, other than the killer(s) of course, are the family. They closed ranks around the killer(s), and refused to talk to Police. There is a lot more to this story than that dickhead Wishart knows, but the family still refuses to talk.

3. This is a case of systematic family child abuse leading to the child's death (I use that phrasing to distance this murder and murders like it from stranger abduction & murder cases like Kirsa Jensen, Teresa Cormack, and Tracy Ann Patient) In Family Violence murder cases, there is a higher than statistically predicted involvement of certain ethnic groups. Some will call me a racist for saying this, but the facts don't lie. Ask any child advocate or social worker in NZ dealing with family violence who the greatest proportion of perpetrators are. They will tell you that certain ethnic groups making up less than 25% of the general population in this country commit more than 80% of the family violence. They will only tell you "off the record" because they can lose their jobs if they tell the truth. You will also find statistics very difficult to find. They are there if you look for them hard enough, but Statistics NZ do not publish them in any meaningful or easy to find form.
Do you know that Wishart has reached wrong conclusions?

I may read his book, but would prefer to know it is factual.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Why should I be ashamed of something I had nothing to do with. I didn't kill those children, I'm am not part of the family, and I wasn't on the jury. Am I appalled at what happened, yes? Am I concerned? You bet! Am I ashamed? Not at all.

2. I very much doubt that Chris Kahui was the sole killer, if he was even the killer at all. The REAL culprits in this case, other than the killer(s) of course, are the family. They closed ranks around the killer(s), and refused to talk to Police. There is a lot more to this story than that dickhead Wishart knows, but the family still refuses to talk.

3. This is a case of systematic family child abuse leading to the child's death (I use that phrasing to distance this murder and murders like it from stranger abduction & murder cases like Kirsa Jensen, Teresa Cormack, and Tracy Ann Patient) In Family Violence murder cases, there is a higher than statistically predicted involvement of certain ethnic groups. Some will call me a racist for saying this, but the facts don't lie. Ask any child advocate or social worker in NZ dealing with family violence who the greatest proportion of perpetrators are. They will tell you that certain ethnic groups making up less than 25% of the general population in this country commit more than 80% of the family violence. They will only tell you "off the record" because they can lose their jobs if they tell the truth. You will also find statistics very difficult to find. They are there if you look for them hard enough, but Statistics NZ do not publish them in any meaningful or easy to find form.
Good points, but I still think that these events (and there a lot of them) are a cause for national shame.

I think the Coroner had it right in the Kahui case. The infants died when in the care of their father. It is highly improbable that anyone else could be responsible.

the other shameful aspect of this case is the time the jury took to acquit. Anywhere between 1 and 4 minutes has been reported.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:35 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
the other shameful aspect of this case is the time the jury took to acquit. Anywhere between 1 and 4 minutes has been reported.
GOTO 6
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Old 9th May 2017, 11:32 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Read and ignored. Have you read about the case?
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Old 9th May 2017, 11:45 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Read and ignored. Have you read about the case?
How ridiculous! Somebody is not automatically guilty just because they have been charged!

Post a link about the case and I will eagerly read it and form an opinion.
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Old 9th May 2017, 11:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How ridiculous! Somebody is not automatically guilty just because they have been charged!

Post a link about the case and I will eagerly read it and form an opinion.
What's ridiculous is your commenting about jury deliberation of a case you know nothing about.
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Old 10th May 2017, 12:02 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What's ridiculous is your commenting about jury deliberation of a case you know nothing about.
So, no link then?
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Old 10th May 2017, 12:04 AM   #16
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I posted an article in the OP. From there there's this new fangled thing called Google.
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Old 10th May 2017, 12:13 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I posted an article in the OP. From there there's this new fangled thing called Google.
So you didn't find anything either. Who needs a trial anyway?
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Old 10th May 2017, 02:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
...That article appeals to every emotion in the book, but is rather light on facts.

Why was he acquitted?
Pretend Google doesn't exist and back up your statement with a proper article.
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Old 10th May 2017, 02:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Pretend Google doesn't exist and back up your statement with a proper article.
Here's the podcast that brought my attention to this case. I doubt you will listen to it though.

http://casefilepodcast.com/case-16-chris-and-cru-kahui/
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Old 10th May 2017, 03:45 AM   #20
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Nope, I'm at work, so podcast out, simple article to read, with actual facts, OK.

Otherwise it's like argument by Youtube.
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Old 10th May 2017, 06:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Nope, I'm at work, so podcast out, simple article to read, with actual facts, OK.

Otherwise it's like argument by Youtube.
Sigh. The OP. There are other links from there. Is it that hard? You look like you do not want to argue the case at all. Good for you. It's not compulsory to enter an argument. It is also not compulsory for me to do the work for people too lazy to do a simple search.

ETA. Samson also posted a link to a book on the subject.
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Old 10th May 2017, 06:52 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
ETA. Samson also posted a link to a book on the subject.
Good. Then you can buy the book, post the relevant extracts from it and show that the jury came to a "shameful" verdict.
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Old 10th May 2017, 06:56 AM   #23
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So I can either read a book, or follow the links in the article?

Of those, one is a link to the same article with a different headline, one is a shortened form of the same article, one is about how rubbish a mother the mother was, one is about the book, one is about how rubbish the whole family were, and one about the rubbish father being a father again. None actually cover the trial.

So poor kids, born into a severely dysfunctional extended family, who all agreed not to testify. Sounds more like a bunch of scum buckets than a reflection on all Kiwis. A jury can't convict with no evidence. Somebody(ies) obviously did something terrible, but as long as the family clammed up, not much the jury could do, is there?

And to a large degree, from personal experience, what smartcooky said in point 3, but as an ex South African, I'm probably a racist bastard so probably shouldn't comment.
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Old 10th May 2017, 08:21 AM   #24
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I read/skimmed the article and didn't see why the father was acquitted.
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Old 10th May 2017, 08:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Really? That's your take from this?

NZ fancies itself as one of the paragon of social justice. Yet it tolerates stuff like this.
Nobody is perfect. In any ranked list, somebody is going to be at the top, and somebody is going to be at the bottom. What's the actual degree of variation between the highest and lowest ranked?

Does it really matter where NZ ranks on this particular list?

I'm willing to bet that NZ's record in this area has more to do with the specific challenges unique to NZ, than to any general moral failing on the part New Zealanders.

The list might be useful for highlighting a special area of focus for NZ's efforts to build a better tomorrow for all its citizens. Other than that, all it seems to be good for is generating ersatz senses of shame, outrage, and superiority.
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Old 10th May 2017, 08:38 AM   #26
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Worth watching just as a movie, it's very powerful with some superb acting, but also as a window into a life most of us will hopefully never know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Were_Warriors_(film)
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Old 10th May 2017, 11:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I read/skimmed the article and didn't see why the father was acquitted.
The jury, and a lot of the NZ public it seems, thought the mother did it. Which was impossible according to the Coroner. One jury member was found to have told his mates in the pub that he was convinced the father was innocent a couple of days into the weeks long trial. Rather than dismiss the jury, which should have happened, the judge simply warned them to be open minded.

There was a lot wrong with this whole case.
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Old 10th May 2017, 11:42 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Worth watching just as a movie, it's very powerful with some superb acting, but also as a window into a life most of us will hopefully never know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Were_Warriors_(film)
A good movie, but made over 20 years ago. What's been happening to reduce the appalling rate of Maori violence since then? If anything, it isn't working.
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Old 10th May 2017, 11:59 AM   #29
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That I can't answer. As an non expert outsider, it does seem to be a cultural thing.

I do know that Maori don't like to be lectured by Pakeha.
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Old 10th May 2017, 01:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nobody is perfect. In any ranked list, somebody is going to be at the top, and somebody is going to be at the bottom. What's the actual degree of variation between the highest and lowest ranked?

Does it really matter where NZ ranks on this particular list?

I'm willing to bet that NZ's record in this area has more to do with the specific challenges unique to NZ, than to any general moral failing on the part New Zealanders.

The list might be useful for highlighting a special area of focus for NZ's efforts to build a better tomorrow for all its citizens. Other than that, all it seems to be good for is generating ersatz senses of shame, outrage, and superiority.

THIS.

I agree we have a poor record of child abuse in this country, but there is no reason for me to be ashamed about it just because I am a New Zealander. I work with at risk children on a volunteer basis as well as being a major organizer for children's sports in this area with a club that I haven't had any children in for over 20 years, so I think I do what I can (more than most) to help.

Even if I didn't do these things, I still do not feel ashamed just because some oxygen stealing scumbags who are not in any way related to or associated with me, murdered their children and then conspired with their extended family to cover it up.
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Old 10th May 2017, 03:03 PM   #31
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The root cause of much crime is illiteracy. Successive governments have made a pig's ear of vote education, where the only things that should be happening in pre and primary school are a method that guarantees literacy. As it stands Mike Williams, previous labour party president beats a lone drum in trying to attend to the 80% of maori prisoners who CANNOT READ AND WRITE.

60% of first entries to prison are driving related. It is not surprising they drive illegally when the motor skills to drive are straightforward but these kids are unable to do a written pre licence exam.

I cannot agree with Smartcooky that we bear no collective responsibility for this social catastrophe.
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Old 10th May 2017, 03:15 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The root cause of much crime is illiteracy. Successive governments have made a pig's ear of vote education, where the only things that should be happening in pre and primary school are a method that guarantees literacy. As it stands Mike Williams, previous labour party president beats a lone drum in trying to attend to the 80% of maori prisoners who CANNOT READ AND WRITE.

60% of first entries to prison are driving related. It is not surprising they drive illegally when the motor skills to drive are straightforward but these kids are unable to do a written pre licence exam.

I cannot agree with Smartcooky that we bear no collective responsibility for this social catastrophe.
I'm sure illiteracy is a problem, but I can't see how it causes a father with no priors beating his infant children to death.
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Old 10th May 2017, 03:45 PM   #33
Samson
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm sure illiteracy is a problem, but I can't see how it causes a father with no priors beating his infant children to death.
It is not a story I have followed, but I am merely looking at who is in prison, and what their social skill sets consist of. School is compulsory, and it is within the power of the state to make damn sure the kids get there. Once there, if there was no advancement until literacy was attended to crime rates would plummet. This is a New Zealand tale.
About 2000, 8 New Zealand parliamentarians went on a grand world tour to figure how kids should be taught to read.
They returned and urged immediacy in employing one method to achieve this, a completely failsafe proven method.
Trevor Mallard was minister of education and totally ignored this.

I blame that government and that cabinet for this rampant crime wave.

How can we pretend that a system is a system where 80% of a group have not breathed the oxygen of civilization?
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Old 10th May 2017, 06:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I cannot agree with Smartcooky that we bear no collective responsibility for this social catastrophe.
You're disagreeing with me on something I never said, however, while we are on this subject, I voted for the people who said they would get the job done... they haven't got it done... how is that my responsibility?
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Old 10th May 2017, 07:07 PM   #35
Samson
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You're disagreeing with me on something I never said, however, while we are on this subject, I voted for the people who said they would get the job done... they haven't got it done... how is that my responsibility?
I was paraphrasing without licence I guess.
I just find it more and more difficult to accept that in a country like ours we have fast failure of society and environment at so many levels, when we have very large government with opportunity to fix things fast.
It is inconceivable that 20,000 house completions and 120,000 Auckland settlers in the last three years are figures that will not result in more crime.
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE? Not Chris Kahui. I know it is obvious he beat this child, but anger management is not a forte of the illiterate.
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Old 11th May 2017, 02:15 AM   #36
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Can't have a free house, get angry and beat people/babies up?

That's a cop out.

Unfortunately education begins at home, and with the best will in the world it is very hard for any government to overcome generations of socialisation.

The sins of the fathers and all that ****, etc.
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Old 11th May 2017, 02:56 AM   #37
Samson
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Can't have a free house, get angry and beat people/babies up?

That's a cop out.

Unfortunately education begins at home, and with the best will in the world it is very hard for any government to overcome generations of socialisation.

The sins of the fathers and all that ****, etc.
If we look at the outcomes and do not like what we see we should change things upstream fast and furiously.
But we don't.
We shag around with totally failed policies.

Literacy is for schools to teach, it is far too important to let parents screw it up, all society pays.

Last edited by Samson; 11th May 2017 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 11th May 2017, 03:17 AM   #38
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Reminds me of a punchline to an old joke.

You can lead a whore to Walter but you can't make her think.
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Old 11th May 2017, 03:53 AM   #39
lionking
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
If we look at the outcomes and do not like what we see we should change things upstream fast and furiously.
But we don't.
We shag around with totally failed policies.

Literacy is for schools to teach, it is far too important to let parents screw it up, all society pays.
Please connect illiteracy with family violence. You can't.
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Old 11th May 2017, 03:58 AM   #40
Samson
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Please connect illiteracy with family violence. You can't.
I think it is a place to start with those prison stats and the ethnicity of Kahui. Just my hunch, I am not an educationist or social worker.
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