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Old 18th May 2017, 03:56 AM   #1
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RIP UK Justice

So, a drug addict father of 25 kids (23 actually, as two are now dead) by 18 different women tortures his latest newborn baby over a period of at least a week, fracturing her ribs 40 times, cracking her skull and delivering fatal brain damage, then cooks up a plan with his girlfriend to cover up the murder by strapping the dead baby to the latter's chest, boarding a bus then pretending the child had simply passed away. As the girlfriend set off on her journey the couple gave each other the thumbs up. The girlfriend sent a few texts on her phone and then raised the alarm and sat back as fellow passengers attempted to revive the dead baby.

Both were jailed for 11 years which in the UK means a maximum of 5.5 years in jail and the rest on licence, unless further crimes are committed in custody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...by-jailed.html

(The DM is the only one currently updated with the sentence)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7693666.html

So I'm left wondering what exactly is the point? Why bother? This junkie will come out of jail and deposit his junk in some other excuse for a mother and hey presto another kid appears to be abused and murdered.

US justice has many flaws but is there really any justification for allowing these creatures to continue to breathe air?
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:06 AM   #2
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You're advocating the death penalty? Good luck with that.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
You're advocating the death penalty? Good luck with that.
How about address the issue and ignore baron's hyperbole. What do you do think of the sentence? I think it's a disgraceful joke.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:16 AM   #4
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They were both acquitted of murder, which means the jury could not determine which of them was directly responsible for causing the injuries.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:18 AM   #5
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It certainly sounds light, based on the available information, but I don't know enough about similar cases to understand how it fits into the overall approach that is taken in such situations.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:23 AM   #6
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These stories fill me with despair. They happen in Australia too. The culprits are beyond redemption, and the justice system should deal with them harshly. They will be free far too soon and be able to breed again and abuse their offspring. This is not justice.

Sterilisation of both? That would not be out of the question for me.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:26 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
They were both acquitted of murder, which means the jury could not determine which of them was directly responsible for causing the injuries.
And yet a baby was tortured and killed. I'm with baron. No justice here.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:26 AM   #8
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I agree that the sentences are too light, but given that they were acquitted of murder and convicted of "causing or allowing" the baby's death, the sentences are within the guidelines; the maximum sentence for that is 14 years according to the Sentencing Guidelines.

I don't support the death penalty under any circumstances but I would like to see crimes against the person sentenced more harshly than they are now.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:46 AM   #9
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I don't think we can say that British justice is dead until justice has run its course. It is perfectly possible that there could be an appeal against the leniency of the sentences.

I thought that a murder charge had the option of conversion to manslaughter, so I am surprised that this wasn't the charge they were convicted of. Perhaps any lawyers here might help with the understanding of that.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:57 AM   #10
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One can always hope something really bad happens to his nuts while he's incarcerated. Better still, something worse happens to his skull.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:10 AM   #11
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Jesus, now I'm depressed.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:13 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
How about address the issue and ignore baron's hyperbole. What do you do think of the sentence? I think it's a disgraceful joke.
I'd be surprised if the sentence wasn't appealed and increased. I also suspect that neither will make model prisoners, and so serving the full term is pretty much assured, either way. One would also hope that their obvious pychological problem receive some attention, as well.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 18th May 2017 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:16 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
One can always hope something really bad happens to his nuts while he's incarcerated. Better still, something worse happens to his skull.

No. Let's hope that formal, legitimate justice is done and not hope for any vigilante 'justice'.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:16 AM   #14
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Pure stupidity. The judge and jury must be on drugs.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
They were both acquitted of murder, which means the jury could not determine which of them was directly responsible for causing the injuries.
I would think that in the USA, they would both be guilty of felony murder. Which sounds right, and would see them sentenced appropriately.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:48 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
They were both acquitted of murder, which means the jury could not determine which of them was directly responsible for causing the injuries.
This is where the law fails in this instance. It's my understanding that the law permits a reduced charge for multiple people when a) one or more of them has definitely committed murder and b) there is no evidence to demonstrate which. So, if two people go into a room in which a third is murdered then, in the absence of further evidence, neither can be found guilty of murder. What should be the case is that all should be charged with murder, with additional time being given for their non-cooperation.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
These stories fill me with despair. They happen in Australia too. The culprits are beyond redemption, and the justice system should deal with them harshly. They will be free far too soon and be able to breed again and abuse their offspring. This is not justice.

Sterilisation of both? That would not be out of the question for me.
In the absence of harsher punishments that is exactly what I'd mandate. I can't think of a reason not to do so. Of course, proper sentencing would make the issue moot (or so you'd think - it was reported only yesterday that an inmate in a UK prison got a guard pregnant).
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:50 AM   #17
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Are UK taxpayers paying to raise all those kids?
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:52 AM   #18
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I sincerely hope so.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Are UK taxpayers paying to raise all those kids?
Well, it's either that or let them die.

And anyway, it's not a payment, it's an investment. Well looked after and well educated, those kids will pay back in taxes much more than they cost.

Not investing in their future would probably leave the taxpayer paying for their life as adults either by provision of social safety net or at her majesties pleasure.



Edit: I do hope that whoever it was that cause the ******** 'taxes are evil' meme to be spread around the world is burning in agony in a hell I don't believe in.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:09 AM   #20
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Yeah, I should probably have expanded a little there.

'all those kids' have done nothing wrong, and deserve support, care and kindness. Their parents are apparently incapable of providing it, so it's down to the rest of us.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:10 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
This is where the law fails in this instance. It's my understanding that the law permits a reduced charge for multiple people when a) one or more of them has definitely committed murder and b) there is no evidence to demonstrate which. So, if two people go into a room in which a third is murdered then, in the absence of further evidence, neither can be found guilty of murder. What should be the case is that all should be charged with murder, with additional time being given for their non-cooperation.



In the absence of harsher punishments that is exactly what I'd mandate. I can't think of a reason not to do so. Of course, proper sentencing would make the issue moot (or so you'd think - it was reported only yesterday that an inmate in a UK prison got a guard pregnant).
They were both charged with murder and were both acquitted.

You seem to be implying that when it isn't possible to prove who committed a murder, juries should just convict everyone who might have done it.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So, a drug addict father of 25 kids (23 actually, as two are now dead) by 18 different women tortures his latest newborn baby over a period of at least a week, fracturing her ribs 40 times, cracking her skull and delivering fatal brain damage, then cooks up a plan with his girlfriend to cover up the murder by strapping the dead baby to the latter's chest, boarding a bus then pretending the child had simply passed away. As the girlfriend set off on her journey the couple gave each other the thumbs up. The girlfriend sent a few texts on her phone and then raised the alarm and sat back as fellow passengers attempted to revive the dead baby.

Both were jailed for 11 years which in the UK means a maximum of 5.5 years in jail and the rest on licence, unless further crimes are committed in custody.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...by-jailed.html

(The DM is the only one currently updated with the sentence)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7693666.html

So I'm left wondering what exactly is the point? Why bother? This junkie will come out of jail and deposit his junk in some other excuse for a mother and hey presto another kid appears to be abused and murdered.

US justice has many flaws but is there really any justification for allowing these creatures to continue to breathe air?
No. Nor for leaving this realm not in severe pain.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:15 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
You seem to be implying that when it isn't possible to prove who committed a murder, juries should just convict everyone who might have done it.
I doubt that's what I was implying.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:16 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Well, it's either that or let them die.

And anyway, it's not a payment, it's an investment. Well looked after and well educated, those kids will pay back in taxes much more than they cost.

Not investing in their future would probably leave the taxpayer paying for their life as adults either by provision of social safety net or at her majesties pleasure.



Edit: I do hope that whoever it was that cause the ******** 'taxes are evil' meme to be spread around the world is burning in agony in a hell I don't believe in.
Yes, yes they should be!!!!
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:21 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
You seem to be implying that when it isn't possible to prove who committed a murder, juries should just convict everyone who might have done it.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I doubt that's what I was implying.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
So, if two people go into a room in which a third is murdered then, in the absence of further evidence, neither can be found guilty of murder. What should be the case is that all should be charged with murder, with additional time being given for their non-cooperation.
Looks rather like you are, actually, with a Prisoner's Dilemma being dumped on any one of them who's innocent on top of all that.

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Old 18th May 2017, 07:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Looks rather like you are, actually, with a Prisoner's Dilemma being dumped on any one of them who's innocent on top of all that.

Dave
So answer me this hypothetical: A man murders his daughter whilst the mother watches. They conspire to dispose of the body. They are apprehended. In court, both deny the charge of murder.

Which of the two is the innocent one?
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:41 AM   #27
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I was an appointed attorney for families who had a child removed from their home by the state (abuse, neglect...etc.). It was all horrible on a sliding scale from "these people *********** suck" to "holy ****, I think we need a new flood - someone talk to God."

There was one woman I remember vividly who had 4 children removed from her care and placed in a foster home - 1 by 1. After she lost the 4th, she screamed at the prosecutor in the hall, "I'm going to keep having *********** kids until you let me keep one."
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:56 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So, if two people go into a room in which a third is murdered then, in the absence of further evidence, neither can be found guilty of murder. What should be the case is that all should be charged with murder, with additional time being given for their non-cooperation.
Now you are being ridiculous. That is nothing like the situation here. The collusion would probably point to an "accessory" charge for either or both. I believe that with this collusion they could even be charged with felony murder in the US.

However, your scenario wouldn't even rise to the level of "preponderance of the evidence" let alone "beyond reasonable doubt". There should be no place in the legal system for sentencing somebody just because they might be guilty. If that were the case then we could dispense with trials altogether and just have sentencing hearings.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:07 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Are UK taxpayers paying to raise all those kids?
Given his age, I would expect some of them will be adults now, and while we don't know of the circumstance of those who are still minors, I daresay most of them will be living with their mothers, unless they've been adopted.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:09 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So answer me this hypothetical: A man murders his daughter whilst the mother watches. They conspire to dispose of the body. They are apprehended. In court, both deny the charge of murder.

Which of the two is the innocent one?
The mother might be innocent of murder if she did not know beforehand that the murder would take place and was not acting in concert, or was under duress. Conspiring to dispose of a body is not the same charge as murder.


Prior to the introduction of the 'causing or allowing the death of a child' law, the outcome in cases where it could not be proven who actually caused a death was that both could be acquitted of murder and escape any punishment at all (or in this case, possibly only a conviction for something like concealing a death). The law was introduced specifically to stop this happening, from what I understand.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:14 AM   #31
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Hmmm... I remember Theodore Dalrymple made an argument for why he is against the death penalty. He's no wet liberal, by the way, but he did work in prisons and an NHS hospital in, I think, Birmingham. When people expressed surprise that someone with so obviously reactionary views as his was against the death penalty claiming that he surely must know at least one person who was bad enough to be beyond redemption he pointed out that of course he knew that. In fact, there were so many that he wouldn't know where to stop applying the death penalty. In his view, there are masses of scumbags around who spend most of their lives immiserating themselves and others. He is such a misanthropist that it is an effort of will to realize that people need to be convicted of what they have done according to rigourous law and not punished on the basis of how much we inevitably hate them. This is a similar case. Baron's biography of the main perpetrator sickens me, but just because I can't stand the non-criminal elements of his being it does not mean he should be punished to a greater degree than he otherwise would be.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:21 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
The mother might be innocent of murder if she did not know beforehand that the murder would take place and was not acting in concert, or was under duress. Conspiring to dispose of a body is not the same charge as murder.


Prior to the introduction of the 'causing or allowing the death of a child' law, the outcome in cases where it could not be proven who actually caused a death was that both could be acquitted of murder and escape any punishment at all (or in this case, possibly only a conviction for something like concealing a death). The law was introduced specifically to stop this happening, from what I understand.
If it's easier, let's cut through the terminology ('murder', 'manslaughter', 'causing or allowing the death of a child') and say that 'causing or allowing the death of a child' should attract the same penalty as murder. I see little difference between this and joint enterprise, where a person may be convicted of murder without ever having touched the victim. Indeed, the only difference is that in the latter case the perpetrator is known.

This is of course completely different to saying that two people who may have committed a murder should be convicted if the evidence doesn't point clearly to one of them, and the other having been complicit.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:32 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Hmmm... I remember Theodore Dalrymple made an argument for why he is against the death penalty. He's no wet liberal, by the way, but he did work in prisons and an NHS hospital in, I think, Birmingham. When people expressed surprise that someone with so obviously reactionary views as his was against the death penalty claiming that he surely must know at least one person who was bad enough to be beyond redemption he pointed out that of course he knew that. In fact, there were so many that he wouldn't know where to stop applying the death penalty. In his view, there are masses of scumbags around who spend most of their lives immiserating themselves and others. He is such a misanthropist that it is an effort of will to realize that people need to be convicted of what they have done according to rigourous law and not punished on the basis of how much we inevitably hate them. This is a similar case. Baron's biography of the main perpetrator sickens me, but just because I can't stand the non-criminal elements of his being it does not mean he should be punished to a greater degree than he otherwise would be.
That's probably the only way of effectively implementing criminal justice using anything like the current system, but I'm not being entirely unserious when I say the idea of examining a person's worth to society, in special instances, would be a reasonable course of action. Naturally we can't go around pointing to people and declaring them a burden on society and chucking them in jail, or hanging them, but I do suggest some crimes should lay the perpetrator open to a life review which would assess their wider impact on society and the world in general. A sort of entropy rating if you like; Entropy too High? Sentenced to Die. Some people, like it or not, have such a consistent and considerable negative impact on all they encounter that their absence would bring nothing but benefit.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:37 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's probably the only way of effectively implementing criminal justice using anything like the current system, but I'm not being entirely unserious when I say the idea of examining a person's worth to society, in special instances, would be a reasonable course of action. Naturally we can't go around pointing to people and declaring them a burden on society and chucking them in jail, or hanging them, but I do suggest some crimes should lay the perpetrator open to a life review which would assess their wider impact on society and the world in general. A sort of entropy rating if you like; Entropy too High? Sentenced to Die. Some people, like it or not, have such a consistent and considerable negative impact on all they encounter that their absence would bring nothing but benefit.
This reads like the start of a dystopian sci-fi novel.
I'm no bleeding heart, and have been known to sympathize with 3-strikes-you're-out , but this is horrific.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:57 AM   #35
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A forced castration might be a good idea too, even if it is closing the barn door after most of the horses got out.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:06 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This reads like the start of a dystopian sci-fi novel.
I'm no bleeding heart, and have been known to sympathize with 3-strikes-you're-out , but this is horrific.
Not so much. Assessment of entropy is only a way of describing what we do now, in attaching seriousness and impact to the crime. My suggestion simply goes a bit further under certain limited circumstances, and involves the character as opposed to just the crime.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:06 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't think we can say that British justice is dead until justice has run its course. It is perfectly possible that there could be an appeal against the leniency of the sentences.

I thought that a murder charge had the option of conversion to manslaughter, so I am surprised that this wasn't the charge they were convicted of. Perhaps any lawyers here might help with the understanding of that.
IANAL nor do I play one on TV, but I think in this case that because each denied that they were responsible for the child's injury and death, the jury could not be certain which one had killed the child. So they could not convict either one of murder or manslaughter, but could convict of causing or allowing the death.

It seems to me that the sentencing guidelines for causing or allowing a death need to be overhauled - a maximum of 14 years seems far too lenient. But until that happens, these two people have been sentenced according to the guidelines.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Not so much. Assessment of entropy is only a way of describing what we do now, in attaching seriousness and impact to the crime. My suggestion simply goes a bit further under certain limited circumstances.
Does your suggestion take into account the benefits to society that these people produce in prison? Even Brady and Shipman worked on translating and producing books in Braille while they were imprisoned.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:13 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Does your suggestion take into account the benefits to society that these people produce in prison? Even Brady and Shipman worked on translating and producing books in Braille while they were imprisoned.
I think mine is a suggestion with merit but even I don't claim it can predict the future. Not that doing so would produce anything of consequence as translating a few books wouldn't tip the scales significantly against the torture and murder of five children or the murder of 100 pensioners.


EDIT: But that was an aside, I don't want to derail my own thread.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:28 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
One can always hope something really bad happens to his nuts while he's incarcerated. Better still, something worse happens to his skull.
In the US prison system, he would be a dead man walking. Even the toughest criminals hate people who abuse or kill kids.
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