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Old 19th May 2017, 05:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Sure, I'd love to know!

What does fiscal prudence mean though? How does a socialist country be prudent with spending? It kinda goes against socialism.
There's a nice anecdote about post-WW2 Dutch Labour leader Willem Drees. In 1947, the US officials Harriman and Hoffman would have visited him about the Marshall aid. For some reason, they visited him at home, in his terraced house. Ms. Drees served the tea, opened the biscuit tin and offered them one plain biscuit - after which the biscuit tin was closed again. On their way back, Harriman and Hoffman concluded that in a country where the PM lived so frugally, the Marshall aid would be well spent.

Now, this anecdote in all likelihood is a myth, but it bears a kernel of truth. The Dutch Labour party under Drees' leadership was very much fiscally conservative, and it has in fact never been a party wont to rack up state deficit.

Also, while in the period 1946-1958, Dutch governments were formed around a Labour-Catholic coalition, building up a welfare state has been a project that has been supported by all parties. On the whole, since WW2, the Labour party has been less years in government than in opposition. Abroad, especially in the USA, there may be the image that the Netherlands is left-wing, but that's actually not the case; the left-wing has always been in a minority. This is mainly due to socially progressive issues like abortion, euthanasia and (soft) drug use. But those are mostly issues where in the Dutch political spectrum, the political left (Labour, Greens) and political right (free market liberals) agree on, while they're opposed by the political center, the Christian-Democrats with their religious hangups that unwanted children must be born and terminally ill people should suffer as long as possible.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
In Norway, the social democrats have never held a majority in parliament. As I said previously in this thread, the PM and cabinet have been from the right around half the time since 1945. Most of the things that Americans point to to show Norway is a socialist country has broad support across the political spectrum.

As I also said previously, the current governing coalition is the most right wing we've ever had. If you come to Norway and try to tell us we're a socialist, or even social democratic, country, a lot of people will be confused.

Things like a welfare state, universal health care, regulations, etc, are usually not a right vs left issue in Europe. Socialist don't have a monopoly on these issues. I'm a big supporter of what we call the Nordic model, but I consider myself to be on the right and have never voted for any party on the left.

After all, the father of the modern welfare state in Europe was Otto von Bismarck, and I don't think any of his contemporaries would have ever dared call him a socialist to his face.

This has all to do with the American definition of socialism, which seems to be "whenever the government does anything, except for the military."
That's interesting. As i said before, it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison. The left constantly throws your country up as an example of what we should do.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:14 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
You do know that facts and reason don't matter to trolls, right?

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Old 20th May 2017, 12:35 AM   #44
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Here I was thinking Venezuela's problems stemmed from corruption and a very monolithic economy. I guess it was because they had welfare programs.

The things internet trolls can teach you.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:03 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
That's interesting. As i said before, it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison. The left constantly throws your country up as an example of what we should do.
I will bite, but here is the caveat. It doesn't matter, because what you call the left is in these parts also a part of the right. It means that you will find people in these countries who are on right spectrum of values/ideologies and so on, who accept and will defend the idea of high taxes and a welfare-state.

So if we are to debate this you must learn to differentiate between hard-left, centre-left, centrum, centre-right and hard right and understand that a liberal country is not necessarily US-liberal.
We , the countries, in question is a combination of capitalism, high taxation and government programs, which try to give a given human a "fighting chance" to have a good life.

So the moment I say high taxation and government programs, if all you can say, is that is "off the left and evil", the debate stops. I accept that you have a different world-view that mine, but I see no reason to debate it unless you can see your own idealogical "blinders" as much as you can see everybody else's idealogical "blinders".

With regards
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Old 20th May 2017, 05:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
I will bite, but here is the caveat. It doesn't matter, because what you call the left is in these parts also a part of the right. It means that you will find people in these countries who are on right spectrum of values/ideologies and so on, who accept and will defend the idea of high taxes and a welfare-state.

So if we are to debate this you must learn to differentiate between hard-left, centre-left, centrum, centre-right and hard right and understand that a liberal country is not necessarily US-liberal.
We , the countries, in question is a combination of capitalism, high taxation and government programs, which try to give a given human a "fighting chance" to have a good life.

So the moment I say high taxation and government programs, if all you can say, is that is "off the left and evil", the debate stops. I accept that you have a different world-view that mine, but I see no reason to debate it unless you can see your own idealogical "blinders" as much as you can see everybody else's idealogical "blinders".

With regards
Is the high taxes on everyone or just the rich? If it's just the rich, do they defend it?
Is it a graduated system like ours?

Here's an interesting article. It's obviously very much in favor of what is going on in Denmark, who does have a graduated tax system. Although this is informative, I'd like to find some counter points to it.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...rates-of-taxes

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Old 20th May 2017, 05:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Is the high taxes on everyone or just the rich? If it's just the rich, do they defend it?
Is it a graduated system like ours?

Here's an interesting article. It's obviously very much in favor of what is going on in Denmark, who does have a graduated tax system. Although this is informative, I'd like to find some counter points to it.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...rates-of-taxes
Do you want to find the counter points yourself and shall I give you my understanding of the limitations and problems inherent in a welfare system?

With regards
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Old 20th May 2017, 06:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Is the high taxes on everyone or just the rich? If it's just the rich, do they defend it?
Is it a graduated system like ours?

Here's an interesting article. It's obviously very much in favor of what is going on in Denmark, who does have a graduated tax system. Although this is informative, I'd like to find some counter points to it.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...rates-of-taxes
A note that the article makes, left wing societies tend to see taxes as the way that they contribute to their society. They are an investment in the future of the country, and a payment for the services that Governments provide.

Right wing societies seem to see taxes as their money that the government takes from them to give to others.
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Old 20th May 2017, 07:15 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Question:

Why does the Right insist on using the problems in Venezuela as an example of why those who want 'socialism' in the US are...

Actually the most shining example of socialism of course is Nationalsozialismus.
It was so shiny that the socialists placed it on the other side of the political spectrum just so it shines in it's very special social way.
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Old 20th May 2017, 07:20 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
A note that the article makes, left wing societies tend to see taxes as the way that they contribute to their society. They are an investment in the future of the country, and a payment for the services that Governments provide.

Right wing societies seem to see taxes as their money that the government takes from them to give to others.
That's a decent summary.

Places worth living in tend to have high taxes, and correspondingly high levels of infrastructure and government services.

Places with low taxes and weak governmental regulations tend to have a low quality of life for the average citizen.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:43 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
A note that the article makes, left wing societies tend to see taxes as the way that they contribute to their society. They are an investment in the future of the country, and a payment for the services that Governments provide.

Right wing societies seem to see taxes as their money that the government takes from them to give to others.
I think you're missing some key points though. I'll accept the premise that socialism works in these countries to make a point. First an over whelming majority had to be on board with the high taxes, I'm sure we can agree they're on board. The point you might be missing is maybe these countries also have an over whelming majority that doesn't game the system. All are willing to put in the effort even though they only get the same services as their other countrymen. Having this high work ethic combined with putting this trust into their government makes it work. The size of these countries probably also contributes to the success. This is what many leftist want to achieve, I just don't think it's possible in the USA. Too many don't buy into government cradle to grave services and too many also aren't willing to give it their best.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Places with low taxes and weak governmental regulations tend to have a low quality of life for the average citizen.
Yeah, but are they bringing me my cocaine? No, then **** those guys.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:45 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Do you want to find the counter points yourself and shall I give you my understanding of the limitations and problems inherent in a welfare system?

With regards
Ok thanks.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:31 AM   #54
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Another way of looking at is, countries such as the USA have low tax rates.... Whether you say tax rates are high or low often gives away someone's beliefs regarding taxation. Is the tax rate in Denmark high? Or is it that they have the tax rate about right and some countries have a low*er* tax rate than what they *should* have?
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You don't get to define what constitutes "better" in this discussion. You can put out what you think matters, and the rest of us can decide for ourselves if it is better.
Actually, better to ask the inhabitants themselves, using a generally accepted criteria.
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:23 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Actually, better to ask the inhabitants themselves, using a generally accepted criteria.
No, I don't agree that we should accept a score on that as better.
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Old 21st May 2017, 07:32 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I think you're missing some key points though. I'll accept the premise that socialism works in these countries to make a point. First an over whelming majority had to be on board with the high taxes, I'm sure we can agree they're on board. The point you might be missing is maybe these countries also have an over whelming majority that doesn't game the system. All are willing to put in the effort even though they only get the same services as their other countrymen. Having this high work ethic combined with putting this trust into their government makes it work. The size of these countries probably also contributes to the success. This is what many leftist want to achieve, I just don't think it's possible in the USA. Too many don't buy into government cradle to grave services and too many also aren't willing to give it their best.
So why all the rants about "Evil Socialism" when it can work in some countries? Why not just argue that it won't work in the US? Why scare people?
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:10 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Question:

Why does the Right insist on using the problems in Venezuela as an example of why those who want 'socialism' in the US are wrong.
Because Alex Jones said so.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:22 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No, I don't agree that we should accept a score on that as better.
Are you a we, BobTheCoward? You are not a we and can't speak for a we. There is no we unless you define it so but it doesn't make it so that you and I become a we.
I don't believe that you are a libertarian with this insistence on a we.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:38 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Are you a we, BobTheCoward? You are not a we and can't speak for a we. There is no we unless you define it so but it doesn't make it so that you and I become a we.
I don't believe that you are a libertarian with this insistence on a we.
Bob and hlaford is a "we". There is a "we" of 2 people.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:22 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Bob and hlaford is a "we". There is a "we" of 2 people.
But that doesn't make this we a we for everybody else, including those who accept the "better" which you opposed. You don't speak for an universal we. E.g. in a post of Logger's there is a reference to a survey, where 9/10 of Danes accept in some sense high taxes. You then can't magically declare that we as Danes don't accept high taxes.
In the same sense with "better", that you don't accept a certain version of better won't stop other humans for accepting that version of "better".
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:50 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
But that doesn't make this we a we for everybody else, including those who accept the "better" which you opposed. You don't speak for an universal we. E.g. in a post of Logger's there is a reference to a survey, where 9/10 of Danes accept in some sense high taxes. You then can't magically declare that we as Danes don't accept high taxes.
In the same sense with "better", that you don't accept a certain version of better won't stop other humans for accepting that version of "better".
Which is why I' didn't use "we" universally​. Just two people.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:55 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which is why I' didn't use "we" universally​. Just two people.
Okay, thank you for your answer.
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:35 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
So what is the difference? Need more specifics.
Venezuela has well regulated capitalism. Hell they even have oil, something those others don't have.
Norway has oil.
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:40 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
So what is the difference? Need more specifics.
Venezuela has well regulated capitalism. Hell they even have oil, something those others don't have.
Venezuela has poor governance, and effectively a one party state. The rule of law doesn't apply to the regime, so it doesn't have well-regulated capitalism.

It has a failed populist/socialist experiment. The closest model for Venezuela is Zimbabwe.

Peru, on the other hand managed to cut poverty in half in a decade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04m7nqs
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:57 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
So why all the rants about "Evil Socialism" when it can work in some countries? Why not just argue that it won't work in the US? Why scare people?
Because it saps human dignity.

Scare people? Ahh yes the leftists snowflakes need to run to their safe space, we trolls are going to devour them. Lol ******* hilarious!
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Old 21st May 2017, 02:00 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Another way of looking at is, countries such as the USA have low tax rates.... Whether you say tax rates are high or low often gives away someone's beliefs regarding taxation. Is the tax rate in Denmark high? Or is it that they have the tax rate about right and some countries have a low*er* tax rate than what they *should* have?
Taking half a persons income isn't too high?
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Old 21st May 2017, 02:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Taking half a persons income isn't too high?
No.
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Old 21st May 2017, 02:12 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Taking half a persons income isn't too high?
Look at my signature

Less of my taxes go on healthcare than your taxes. I also don't need private health insurance - except for holidays abroad.
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Old 21st May 2017, 02:14 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
So what is the difference? Need more specifics.
Venezuela has well regulated capitalism. Hell they even have oil, something those others don't have.
Here are the key differences:
Norway does have oil.
Venezuela doesn't have well regulated capitalism.
Reality bears no resemblance to your contentions.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:22 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Here are the key differences:
Norway does have oil.
Venezuela doesn't have well regulated capitalism.
Reality bears no resemblance to your contentions.
Norway doesn't have anything close to what Venezuela has and yes they have what socialists would call well regulated capitalism. Lately of course it's a mess, seems folks don't want to have your precious socialism.

Too bad, it could be so wonderful.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:23 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
No.
Sure to someone living off others.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:50 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Look at my signature

Less of my taxes go on healthcare than your taxes. I also don't need private health insurance - except for holidays abroad outside of Europe.
FTFY. But Theresa May is working hard to make your wording come true.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:51 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Taking half a persons income isn't too high?
No.
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Old 21st May 2017, 03:53 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
So why all the rants about "Evil Socialism" when it can work in some countries? Why not just argue that it won't work in the US? Why scare people?
That was effectively what happened in the discussion here around US healthcare reform. When Europeans and Canadians and Australians and others argued that the US could simply also introduce some UHC system, the American opponents of that idea argued that that wouldn't work. Those arguments basically amounted to that the US couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.
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Old 21st May 2017, 04:05 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Because it saps human dignity.
How does supporting your country and your society "sap human dignity"?

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Scare people? Ahh yes the leftists snowflakes need to run to their safe space, we trolls are going to devour them. Lol ******* hilarious!
Actually what is truly funny is that it's not the left that get scared by this. It's the Right. When the whole Socialism = Venezuela is brought up, Leftist roll their eyes and groan because they know the truth. Rightists are the ones that flee in horror and hide under the pillows muttering about Reds under the bed and communism.
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Old 21st May 2017, 04:08 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That was effectively what happened in the discussion here around US healthcare reform. When Europeans and Canadians and Australians and others argued that the US could simply also introduce some UHC system, the American opponents of that idea argued that that wouldn't work. Those arguments basically amounted to that the US couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.
The American Rightwing have very low opinions of their fellow countrymen and women. They seem to believe that unless people are forced to work on the threat of starvation and no healthcare, then they'll just mooch off the system and drain all the hardworking right wingers. The fact that the biggest drains on Federal funding come from Rightwing states while most of the biggest cash cows are Leftwing seems to totally escape them.
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:16 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
So why all the rants about "Evil Socialism" when it can work in some countries? Why not just argue that it won't work in the US? Why scare people?
Because Nazional Socialist Deutsche Arbeiter Partei, and Soviet Socialism.

Next question?
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:53 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Because Nazional Socialist Deutsche Arbeiter Partei, and Soviet Socialism.

Next question?
Except that neither were good examples of Socialism, but rather Authoritarianism, and one was closer to Fascism than Socialism anyways, despite the name.
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Old 21st May 2017, 05:55 PM   #80
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I do love how easily people are confused.

China is a republic, right? It's the People's Republic. Free elections and whatnot.

Is it just possible that "National Socialism" means something different than "socialism"?
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