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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 30th November 2019, 04:21 AM   #2081
Orphia Nay
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From the study from 2000 that Ziggurat posted:

"in a 1992 survey of American women aged eighteen and older, 13 percent of the respondents reported having been the victim of at least one rape, where rape was defined as unwelcome oral, anal or vaginal penetration achieved through the use or threat of force."

More women acknowledge now they'd been raped than they did in 1992.

Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.

It's also when a woman feels threatened or fears the use of force.

The "threat of force" is ever-present.

I was terribly anxious and confused for many years after several incidents of rape. I never told anyone, except I told one person about the incident my arms were held down while he did it.

Men's fear of having raped a woman affects women's fears of having been raped.

Our fears have so much power over us. They're our survival instincts, along with fight, flight, and ways we assert and defend ourselves. Males and females are very different, due to biology.

People who believe that rape is only a result of violence don't acknowledge that men are stronger than women.

As a runner, I'm painfully aware of the physical "domination" of men in sport, not just in social situations. I was talking to a male friend today who is having chemo for cancer.

He complained to me he'd been feeling great, but after being started on drugs to reduce testosterone, he can't run as fast and "felt terrible" because of that.

When I replied, "Welcome to how the other half live", he said, "I can't believe how many women all say that".

We have this constant fear of being inferior, and of being attacked by something stronger than us, and being unable to outrun it.

The domination of "Man" over "Nature" and the conceptual separation of Man(Human) and Nature is a huge problem in "civilisation" that could lead to one of my Entanglement rants about the climate emergency.

We deny we're "animals" to our own detriment.

When a man won't listen to the words "no", a woman fears male's natural physical strength used against them.

When we say no to a drink, then no to a kiss, then a hug, then a feel...

When does a rape become a rape?

After the first no, the second no, or how many nos?

A woman knows when a man isn't listening to "no" and fears starting an act of physical resistance.

A man is driven by evolutionary psychology to want to be strong, reproduce his genes, release his anxieties about his physical ability to survive. It's not merely about sex.

Men who deny rape can be so worried about admitting they have raped someone, that they are afraid to understand the issues we both face.

Women, too are driven to reproduce (not merely have sex) and often dress to express or protest their status. Dressing "provocatively" to protest rape and inequality is too complicated and cerebral for our human, physical instincts of fight and flight and many of our fear and release impulses.

I feared I'd done something "wrong" by being raped, yet I couldn't understand what, when I didn't enjoy any of it and had tried to protest and wasn't listened to.

Like it or not, we wear less clothes in bed, and can dress as if that's where we "should" be.

Men fear they've done something "wrong" in a situation like a rape.

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals?

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals when we treat so many animals vastly differently?

Can we forgive ourselves for being aggressive when we are so cruel to the guilty?
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:59 AM   #2082
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, Archie, itís not fine. My views are supported by science. Your views are dogma invented by a radical feminist to support a political agenda, with no supporting evidence and based on false beliefs about biological reality.
I know you keep saying that. But you have some way to go before you have shown it to be true. So far we have exactly what I said 'two competing views'

Quote:

Yes. Sexual arousal makes sexual predators more likely to attack. How is that not obvious?
Because it isn't. Because nudity is not the same as sexual arousal and because you haven't shown any evidence that nudity is linked to sexual assault. All you keep doing is repeating how it's obvious to you. Well it isn't obvious to me and I doubt it's true. As I said, this can be resolved pretty easily when you link to data.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:12 AM   #2083
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post

Can you relate Archie?
Of course I can relate, and don't think it's only women that feel this way though I accept its exacerbated for women.

The problem for me is when we go from 'this makes me uncomfortable regardless of the objective risk' (which is fine) to then add 'and therefore we need to discriminate against trans people'

Because that's a jump that I am just not prepared to make, yet.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:15 AM   #2084
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I know, I know. "Unsupported assertion" or something..
Well I'm glad you said that to save me the trouble.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:19 AM   #2085
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
FI was talking to a male friend today who is having chemo for cancer.

He complained to me he'd been feeling great, but after being started on drugs to reduce testosterone, he can't run as fast and "felt terrible" because of that.

When I replied, "Welcome to how the other half live", he said, "I can't believe how many women all say that."

I found this blog article interesting in the same context.

Finishing what I started


Quote:
I confessed to Martyn at the summit that at lunch as we sat in the meagre sun, out of the wind, but still very cold, I was having doubts, unsure whether I would be able to make it to the top. Because my body has been deprived of the major chemical necessary to motivate it, I can only make myself do things using my mind, I cannot rely on the pure masculinity of my drive. This is not an easy idea to express, for unless testosterone is no longer doing what it once did, its effects remain largely unnoticed, as they blend into the ordinary conduct of life. Like most other men, being still endowed with his natural biochemical complement, Martyn cannot experience this, but he listens well as I rant, and sees how the most obvious effect of my medication – the flushes – seriously screw around with my ability to regulate temperature. When every couple of hours, a layer of sweat seeps out to cocoon my body, no matter what the ambient temperature nor activity level, keeping warm becomes part of a delicate balance with drying off. Practically, it is a matter of experimenting with layers, but in this cold the challenges are more complex and the whole chemical castration thing saps my spirit, threatening at every moment to pull me down into a dark unhealthy place.

I don't think women have any real understanding of what it is like to be a man and to have that "motivation" all the time. Women who have taken testosterone try to describe it, and it does seem pretty transformative.

But removing testosterone doesn't turn a man into a woman and I think Duncan would be pretty offended if any one suggested that was the case.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:28 AM   #2086
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
... 'and therefore we need to discriminate against trans people'

This makes me very uncomfortable. Nobody has ever used these quoted words. Nobody is setting out to "discriminate against transwomen" (let's be honest, it's the males who want to occupy women's spaces we're talking about here).

Transwomen are biologically male, and cannot ever be otherwise. Sanitary and sleeping arrangements are segregated by biological sex. Males who become transwomen are asking/demanding a concession, not a right - the concession to be allowed to occupy the single-sex spaces of the opposite sex.

Framing this as if it is unquestionably "discrimination" not to accede to this request (demand) is a dishonest argument. It's part of the constant attempt to smear those who advocate for women's rights as being comparable to racists. I find it contemptible.
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:49 AM   #2087
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I know you keep saying that. But you have some way to go before you have shown it to be true. So far we have exactly what I said 'two competing views'
My view is supported by the evidence. Your view has no evidence. They are not equivalent.

Quote:
Because it isn't. Because nudity is not the same as sexual arousal
I didnít say nudity was the same as sexual arousal. But it frequently leads to sexual arousal. The entire pornography industry is based on that fact. And there are plenty of scientific studies which show that males are sexually aroused by nudity, much more so than females.
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Old 30th November 2019, 07:00 AM   #2088
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Of course I can relate, and don't think it's only women that feel this way though.
Obviously, you can't.
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:56 PM   #2089
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn’t say nudity was the same as sexual arousal. But it frequently leads to sexual arousal. The entire pornography industry is based on that fact. And there are plenty of scientific studies which show that males are sexually aroused by nudity, much more so than females.
Pornography involves more than mere nudity, though. To attribute the allure of porn to the subjects being naked is really stretching it.

Are males sexually aroused by a woman they specifically don't want to see nude? Perhaps males like to see another person they are already (aesthetically) attracted to nude.

So it might not be the nudity itself, once again?

And did this study go further than noting the trend or did it conclusively prove that this is an innate and immutable truth of men, totally slamming the door on the social explanation?

ETA: Go to a nude beach, strut around with your raging...um...arousal, leer at all the "hot chicks", snicker at all the men who's blood is down (and how many of them there are!). You'll probably get an introduction to how not effective "dude, all these chicks are naked, what do you expect?" is when the wrong kind of attention keeps coming your way.

Nudity being frowned on outside of sexual contexts makes nudity only happen during sexy time means nudity "is" sexual. It's all a self-reinforcing delusion.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 30th November 2019 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 30th November 2019, 08:07 PM   #2090
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Pornography involves more than mere nudity, though. To attribute the allure of porn to the subjects being naked is really stretching it.
I can only conclude from this that you are not a male.

Quote:
Are males sexually aroused by a woman they specifically don't want to see nude? Perhaps males like to see another person they are already (aesthetically) attracted to nude.

So it might not be the nudity itself, once again?
That doesn't even make sense. Nudity is never "by itself". It's always a specific person which is nude. And it doesn't matter if some specific males are not aroused by some specific females being nude. The chances that a male will be sexually aroused by a female are still higher if that female is nude.

Quote:
Nudity being frowned on outside of sexual contexts makes nudity only happen during sexy time means nudity "is" sexual. It's all a self-reinforcing delusion.
Let's suppose for a moment that nudity is only sexually arousing because we aren't socialized to accept nudity as the norm. Then what? Are we going to change that? Are we going to become a society of nudists who do not sexualize nudity at all? No. We are not going to do that. That has no chance of happening. For the purposes of assessing the risks associated with being nude, we have to consider the society we actually live in. What might happen in some hypothetical society which will never describe our actual one simply doesn't matter.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 05:08 PM   #2091
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I found this blog article interesting in the same context.

Finishing what I started





I don't think women have any real understanding of what it is like to be a man and to have that "motivation" all the time. Women who have taken testosterone try to describe it, and it does seem pretty transformative.

But removing testosterone doesn't turn a man into a woman and I think Duncan would be pretty offended if any one suggested that was the case.
I'm a man and I don't understand that "motivation" thing that you are referring to.

Let's not paint everyone with the same brush.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 09:15 PM   #2092
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
From the study from 2000 that Ziggurat posted:

"in a 1992 survey of American women aged eighteen and older, 13 percent of the respondents reported having been the victim of at least one rape, where rape was defined as unwelcome oral, anal or vaginal penetration achieved through the use or threat of force."

More women acknowledge now they'd been raped than they did in 1992.

Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.

It's also when a woman feels threatened or fears the use of force.

The "threat of force" is ever-present.

I was terribly anxious and confused for many years after several incidents of rape. I never told anyone, except I told one person about the incident my arms were held down while he did it.

Men's fear of having raped a woman affects women's fears of having been raped.

Our fears have so much power over us. They're our survival instincts, along with fight, flight, and ways we assert and defend ourselves. Males and females are very different, due to biology.

People who believe that rape is only a result of violence don't acknowledge that men are stronger than women.

As a runner, I'm painfully aware of the physical "domination" of men in sport, not just in social situations. I was talking to a male friend today who is having chemo for cancer.

He complained to me he'd been feeling great, but after being started on drugs to reduce testosterone, he can't run as fast and "felt terrible" because of that.

When I replied, "Welcome to how the other half live", he said, "I can't believe how many women all say that".

We have this constant fear of being inferior, and of being attacked by something stronger than us, and being unable to outrun it.

The domination of "Man" over "Nature" and the conceptual separation of Man(Human) and Nature is a huge problem in "civilisation" that could lead to one of my Entanglement rants about the climate emergency.

We deny we're "animals" to our own detriment.

When a man won't listen to the words "no", a woman fears male's natural physical strength used against them.

When we say no to a drink, then no to a kiss, then a hug, then a feel...

When does a rape become a rape?

After the first no, the second no, or how many nos?

A woman knows when a man isn't listening to "no" and fears starting an act of physical resistance.

A man is driven by evolutionary psychology to want to be strong, reproduce his genes, release his anxieties about his physical ability to survive. It's not merely about sex.

Men who deny rape can be so worried about admitting they have raped someone, that they are afraid to understand the issues we both face.

Women, too are driven to reproduce (not merely have sex) and often dress to express or protest their status. Dressing "provocatively" to protest rape and inequality is too complicated and cerebral for our human, physical instincts of fight and flight and many of our fear and release impulses.

I feared I'd done something "wrong" by being raped, yet I couldn't understand what, when I didn't enjoy any of it and had tried to protest and wasn't listened to.

Like it or not, we wear less clothes in bed, and can dress as if that's where we "should" be.

Men fear they've done something "wrong" in a situation like a rape.

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals?

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals when we treat so many animals vastly differently?

Can we forgive ourselves for being aggressive when we are so cruel to the guilty?

Not just the highlighted, by any means, but...what?
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Old 2nd December 2019, 09:18 PM   #2093
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This makes me very uncomfortable. Nobody has ever used these quoted words. Nobody is setting out to "discriminate against transwomen" (let's be honest, it's the males who want to occupy women's spaces we're talking about here).

Transwomen are biologically male, and cannot ever be otherwise. Sanitary and sleeping arrangements are segregated by biological sex. Males who become transwomen are asking/demanding a concession, not a right - the concession to be allowed to occupy the single-sex spaces of the opposite sex.

Framing this as if it is unquestionably "discrimination" not to accede to this request (demand) is a dishonest argument. It's part of the constant attempt to smear those who advocate for women's rights as being comparable to racists. I find it contemptible.

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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:28 AM   #2094
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well I'm glad you said that to save me the trouble.
I guess you missed the rest of his post, then.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:32 AM   #2095
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Pornography involves more than mere nudity, though.
Plenty of it does involve only nudity.

It's more complex than just nudity, but it's an important component.

Why do you think some men peep? There's no context for the nudity and yet it arouses them. Etc. This isn't some new scientific revelation. Humans have known this stuff for thousands of years.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:06 AM   #2096
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Plenty of it does involve only nudity.

It's more complex than just nudity, but it's an important component.

Why do you think some men peep? There's no context for the nudity and yet it arouses them. Etc. This isn't some new scientific revelation. Humans have known this stuff for thousands of years.
It takes thousands of years to develop dogmatic intellectuals capable of ignoring the obvious.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 09:26 AM   #2097
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.

It's also when a woman feels threatened or fears the use of force.

The "threat of force" is ever-present.
This sounds like you're saying all sex is rape. Can you clarify what you actually meant here?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 09:58 AM   #2098
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.
Does this include the Japanese?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:18 AM   #2099
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Plenty of it does involve only nudity.



It's more complex than just nudity, but it's an important component.



Why do you think some men peep? There's no context for the nudity and yet it arouses them. Etc. This isn't some new scientific revelation. Humans have known this stuff for thousands of years.
Why do some men peep?

With all the completely free or relatively low cost and low risk nudity available without breaking laws or violating anyone's privacy, why peep at unwilling targets?

Maybe it's not about the nudity.

I'm amazed at how much heavy lifting some people do to normalize some of the most heinous behaviors.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:27 AM   #2100
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Why do some men peep?

With all the completely free or relatively low cost and low risk nudity available without breaking laws or violating anyone's privacy, why peep at unwilling targets?

Maybe it's not about the nudity.
Of course it's about the nudity. You could argue that it's not only the nudity, but the nudity is absolutely a part of it.

And in-person nudity is rarely free in this country outside of relationships. Yes, porn is available for free, but strip shows are not. And people often have a preference for in-person experiences, as the continued existence of live theater demonstrates. Peepers may also be motivated by a kink where the ignorance or unwillingness of the target is a component, but that doesn't make nudity irrelevant. It isn't.

Quote:
I'm amazed at how much heavy lifting some people do to normalize some of the most heinous behaviors.
I'm amazed that you think acknowledging the obvious means we're normalizing heinous behaviors. No, we aren't. It doesn't work that way. For example, wanting money is a normal human desire. But acknowledging that people sometimes kill other people for money doesn't mean that killing other people for money is therefore acceptable in any way.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:29 AM   #2101
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
...snip...
This was a fascinating post. I think a lot of people would benefit by considering it.

As a legal standard I think some of the statements about rape would be severely flawed, but as psychological insight I think they are valuable.

I suspect some people are having a difficult time relating this to the primary thread topic, but I think there is a definite connection.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:46 AM   #2102
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Why do some men peep?

With all the completely free or relatively low cost and low risk nudity available without breaking laws or violating anyone's privacy, why peep at unwilling targets?

Maybe it's not about the nudity.
Well you tell me: how many fully clothed women do men peep at?

Quote:
I'm amazed at how much heavy lifting some people do to normalize some of the most heinous behaviors.
Now that's pretty despicable. I give you an example of things that arouses some people, and plenty of youngsters. I didn't make a moral judgment about it, but here you use it to attack me without reason.

You should apologise. It was entirely uncalled for, but it's an increasingly common behaviour on this forum to use someone's statements of fact as some sort of moral endorsement of those facts.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:51 AM   #2103
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I like the impression that is coming across that only men look at porn.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:56 AM   #2104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well you tell me: how many fully clothed women do men peep at?
Your assertion, your burden.





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Now that's pretty despicable. I give you an example of things that arouses some people, and plenty of youngsters. I didn't make a moral judgment about it, but here you use it to attack me without reason.
"I'm the real victim here!"



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You should apologise. It was entirely uncalled for, but it's an increasingly common behaviour on this forum to use someone's statements of fact as some sort of moral endorsement of those facts.
You calling your statements facts doesn't make them so.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:00 PM   #2105
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Your assertion, your burden.
What assertion? That some men peep at women? I asked you a question: are you aware of any men peeping at fully clothed women with no expectation of even partial nudity?

Stop dodging the issue. You know exactly what we're talking about.

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"I'm the real victim here!"
Do you have any ounce of honesty? You made an accusation towards me that was uncalled for and unrelated to my post. Statements of fact, true or not, are not moral endorsements. I'd be willing to bet that you know that very well, and that you just threw that in there because you have no other ammunition.

Reasonable people apologise for their slights and change their behaviour accordingly. Stop acting like a kid.

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You calling your statements facts doesn't make them so.
Are you now denying that men peep at naked women? Gee, talk about sunk cost. for ****'s sake, you can admit to being wrong, you know? I get it. You chose a "side" of the discussion and you now have to say the exact opposite of those you consider to be on the other "side". It's not very mature, but there you have it.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:08 PM   #2106
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What assertion? That some men peep at women? I asked you a question: are you aware of any men peeping at fully clothed women with no expectation of even partial nudity?



Stop dodging the issue. You know exactly what we're talking about.


I never made any statement about men peeping at clothed women.

If I'm dodging anything, it's your attempt to smear me.



Quote:
Do you have any ounce of honesty? You made an accusation towards me that was uncalled for and unrelated to my post. Statements of fact, true or not, are not moral endorsements. I'd be willing to bet that you know that very well, and that you just threw that in there because you have no other ammunition.
"True or not" statements of fact?

How does that work?



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Reasonable people apologise for their slights and change their behaviour accordingly. Stop acting like a kid.
People demanding "reasonable" behavior while hurling insults themselves...





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Are you now denying that men peep at naked women? Gee, talk about sunk cost. for ****'s sake, you can admit to being wrong, you know? I get it. You chose a "side" of the discussion and you now have to say the exact opposite of those you consider to be on the other "side". It's not very mature, but there you have it.
I never at all denied it happens.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:15 PM   #2107
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I never made any statement about men peeping at clothed women.
You said it wasn't about the nudity. The best way to demonstrate this would be to find examples or statistics about men being aroused by peeping at fully clothed women.

Unless, of course, you realise that it IS about nudity, misspoke earlier, and are unwilling to admit to that mistake.

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If I'm dodging anything, it's your attempt to smear me.
Smear? Are you using the tested-and-true tactic of "no you!"? What's a 'smear' about saying you're avoiding answering my questions? It's a description of your actual, observable behaviour, not of your moral calibre or some other purported acts.

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"True or not" statements of fact?

How does that work?
What do you mean, "how does that work?"? A statement of fact is a statement about a factual thing. "The sky is green" is a statement of fact. It is, however, usually false. This is really basic stuff.

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People demanding "reasonable" behavior while hurling insults themselves...
Which insult? Again, you are projecting.

Now, are you going to retract your accusation or not? Otherwise I expect you to show evidence that I'm 'normalising' peeping.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:24 PM   #2108
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You said it wasn't about the nudity. The best way to demonstrate this would be to find examples or statistics about men being aroused by peeping at fully clothed women.



Unless, of course, you realise that it IS about nudity, misspoke earlier, and are unwilling to admit to that mistake.
Or my point went over your head.

If no cost, no risk ways of seeing someone nude exist, why peep?





Quote:
Smear? Are you using the tested-and-true tactic of "no you!"? What's a 'smear' about saying you're avoiding answering my questions? It's a description of your actual, observable behaviour, not of your moral calibre or some other purported acts.


You not getting my point doesn't mean I'm avoiding anything.



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What do you mean, "how does that work?"? A statement of fact is a statement about a factual thing. "The sky is green" is a statement of fact. It is, however, usually false. This is really basic stuff.
I appreciate you think you've made a really clever point here.





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Which insult? Again, you are projecting.
This is boring the living **** out of me, FYI.



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Now, are you going to retract your accusation or not? Otherwise I expect you to show evidence that I'm 'normalising' peeping.
You've got that covered all on your own.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:28 PM   #2109
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There is something I find amusing about this peeping discussion. On forums, when someone on "the other side" says something, people feel compelled to disagree, whether or not it actually supports their position.

Consider, if you will, that laws which support transgender access to opposite sex locker rooms and bathroomswill mean that biological males will be allowed to enter the exact spaces that voyeurs would find most exciting.

So, is nudity all by itself arousing? Then it's understandable that women wouldn't want to be naked around unknown men. Or is it the case that it's really only arousing to creepy perverts when they can view women in places the perverts aren't supposed to be able see? Then women sure as hell wouldn't want anything to do with a guy in her bathroom or locker room.

But if the guy is wearing women's underwear it's all good?

I know, I know, she's not a guy. And.... we're back to definitions.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 01:06 PM   #2110
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If no cost, no risk ways of seeing someone nude exist, why peep?
Because seeing nudity in person is more exciting than seeing it on a computer screen. That's also why people pay to see strip shows, even though there's nothing there that they can't see for free on the internet. None of this even suggests nudity isn't important to peeping.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 01:10 PM   #2111
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If no cost, no risk ways of seeing someone nude exist, why peep?
Because as Ziggurat has explained, and I hinted, nudity might not be the ONLY factor in play. That doesn't argue against the statement that it IS one of the factors in play.

Can you or can you not find an example that demonstrated your own position?

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You not getting my point doesn't mean I'm avoiding anything.
No, the fact that you didn't answer my question means you're avoiding something.

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I appreciate you think you've made a really clever point here.
What in the actual ****? You asked a question and I straight-up answered it. You seemed confused that statements of fact that are false could still be statements of fact. I explained it to you. What's 'clever' about that?

You seriously seem to consider this conversation a fight with some sort of prize at the end.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 01:51 PM   #2112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because as Ziggurat has explained, and I hinted, nudity might not be the ONLY factor in play. That doesn't argue against the statement that it IS one of the factors in play.
Like I said: your assertion, your burden.



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Can you or can you not find an example that demonstrated your own position?


Asked and answered.



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No, the fact that you didn't answer my question means you're avoiding something.


Because it's non-sequitur to my point as well as absurdly phrased.



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What in the actual ****? You asked a question and I straight-up answered it. You seemed confused that statements of fact that are false could still be statements of fact. I explained it to you. What's 'clever' about that?
Yawn



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You seriously seem to consider this conversation a fight with some sort of prize at the end.
No, I do not.

Are you a mind reader?

Moving on.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 02:30 PM   #2113
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Like I said: your assertion, your burden.
A question is not an assertion.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 03:07 PM   #2114
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This thread is becoming more and more bizarre. Of course straight men get sexually stimulated by seeing naked women.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:14 PM   #2115
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
This thread is becoming more and more bizarre. Of course straight men get sexually stimulated by seeing naked women.
Do you get sexually stimulated by seeing your grandmother naked?

Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day?

Then it's probably more complicated than that.

I've actually never denied that it happens. I do thoroughly question why and the poor attempts at anthropological explanations don't cut it. The implications of such an explanation go right to the idea that men can be excused for lack of self-discipline and women have to make conscious efforts not to be targeted. This is how MRA logic works, this is why women have to wear modest clothing in oppressive religious communities, etc.

Of course the overriding point I originally made was that this cultural perspective makes it near impossible to have a discussion on any topic of sexual or gender identity without having to "make room" for all the ways men are expected/allowed to behave.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:22 PM   #2116
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I've actually never denied that it happens. I do thoroughly question why
The why isnít relevant to my argument. It suffices that it happens.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:33 PM   #2117
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The why isn’t relevant to my argument. It suffices that it happens.
If, in the instances where "it happens" is sufficient grounds for basically everyone else in society to have to adjust around it, then it never changes.

Which is basically saying "we can't be bothered to do anything about it except keep making room for it."

I'm not impressed by digging into an issue just far enough to find an excuse not to dig any further.

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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:40 PM   #2118
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If, in the instances where "it happens" is sufficient grounds for basically everyone else in society to have to adjust around it, then it never changes.
If you think you know how to change society then go ahead and try to change it. Iíd love to know how you think that can be done. But putting women at risk of sexual assault isnít going to cause the change you seem to want.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:03 PM   #2119
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you think you know how to change society then go ahead and try to change it. I’d love to know how you think that can be done. But putting women at risk of sexual assault isn’t going to cause the change you seem to want.
Ah yes, if I don't have the codex this instant, then its a pipe-dream. Really advanced insight, there. Step 1 would probably be: stop perpetuating bad excuses for bad behavior! That's also, of course, why it won't work, I suppose. The people who need to do that are all potential beneficiaries of the lax standards and constantly expected to demonstrate strict adherence to the idea that men are "this way."

I'm not sure why me advocating for higher standards of behavior from men means I want women to be at risk of sexual assault. That's really just off the wall, kinda seems like you're just hurling it at me in an emotional tantrum. Because I'm breaking the code.

None of these responses really shock me, by the way. Discussing this stuff in meatspace is usually met with derision of my own manhood, angry outbursts that often start with "oh like you've never..." and surprisingly quick to rise towards violence.

Masculinity (in American culture) is deeply ingrained with persecution complex and demands constant delineation of what is and (much more importantly) what is not "manly."

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Old 3rd December 2019, 09:11 PM   #2120
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Ah yes, if I don't have the codex this instant, then its a pipe-dream.
No. You don't get it.

The problem isn't that you don't have a solution at hand. The problem is that you apparently don't want people to deal with the problem as it exists because you don't want the problem to exist. But that isn't the way the world works.

A dysfunction exists: some men sexually assault and rape women. That's a bad thing, everyone here would prefer it didn't happen. But rather than using sensible measures to try to limit how much it happens, you seem to want women to expose themselves to increase risk because... why? Is the theory here that if they expose themselves to increased risk and sexual assault and rape happens more often, then that will cause enough outrage that society will be forced to change? A sexual assault version of heightening the contradictions? That won't end well.

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Really advanced insight, there. Step 1 would probably be: stop perpetuating bad excuses for bad behavior!
You seem to have confused excuses with explanations. That's not how it works. Nothing I've said constitutes an excuse for any bad behavior.

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I'm not sure why me advocating for higher standards of behavior from men means I want women to be at risk of sexual assault.
Because you aren't advocating for higher standards for men. You're attacking me for explaining why it makes sense to sex segregate spaces where women get naked. Telling people not to lock their cars isn't advocating for less car theft. That's not how anything works.

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Masculinity (in American culture) is deeply ingrained with persecution complex and demands constant delineation of what is and (much more importantly) what is not "manly."
Nothing I've been saying here has anything to do with what is or is not manly. And it's beyond bizarre that you're talking about "persecution complex" in "masculinity" when what I'm advocating here is protecting women from bad men.
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