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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:37 AM   #601
kellyb
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What I'm really saying is that one must have resources in excess of needs in order to save. You appear to be incapable of grasping the possibility that not everybody has resources in excess of their needs.
Seems like this to me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invinc...orance_fallacy
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:47 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What I'm really saying is that one must have resources in excess of needs in order to save. You appear to be incapable of grasping the possibility that not everybody has resources in excess of their needs.
No, you save first and then budget the rest. The less money you make the more important it is to save some up to have a cushion. Just because people choose not to do this doesn't mean they don't have the resources.

I can see TEMPORARY circumstances that would lead to not having savings, but that's an emergency. If your entire life is an emergency than you've not made very good decisions have you?

I find it interesting that people in China save money at a much higher rate than americans even though they are far poorer. I go into the houses of poor people in the USA and they have flatscreen TV's, iphones, videogame system and they own cars. They spend every penny they have and then they run up the credit cards. If they manage to own a home they mine the home equity for more lifestyle.

So no sorry I don't accept your view that people can't afford to save. I think they make their decisions and live with the results.

Again, I've seen many poor people turn their lives around through better financial management. This applies at any income level, although if your income is super low the first order of business would be to find a way to generate more income.

Usual caveats apply, if someone is literally disabled then maybe they are without options. But the average poor person is very much a victim of their own bad decisions. A poor person who makes good decisions won't remain poor for long.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:51 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
For that to be the case evidence would have to be presented. I have only seen assertions, not evidence.

My first piece of evidence is that China, which has far poorer citizens than the USA on any scale, saves a lot more than we do. Savings is not about income, it's about lifestyle decisions.

First hit from googling "china vs us savings rate"

http://conversableeconomist.blogspot...ings-rate.html

The numbers are clear. China is poor but they save and invest so they can get more wealthy. US citizens feel comfortable being a lot richer and piss away their money. They could save a lot more, be frugal and live safer lifestyles. Instead it's spend spend spend.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:52 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
No, you save first and then budget the rest. The less money you make the more important it is to save some up to have a cushion. Just because people choose not to do this doesn't mean they don't have the resources.

I can see TEMPORARY circumstances that would lead to not having savings, but that's an emergency. If your entire life is an emergency than you've not made very good decisions have you?

I find it interesting that people in China save money at a much higher rate than americans even though they are far poorer. I go into the houses of poor people in the USA and they have flatscreen TV's, iphones, videogame system and they own cars. They spend every penny they have and then they run up the credit cards. If they manage to own a home they mine the home equity for more lifestyle.

So no sorry I don't accept your view that people can't afford to save. I think they make their decisions and live with the results.

Again, I've seen many poor people turn their lives around through better financial management. This applies at any income level, although if your income is super low the first order of business would be to find a way to generate more income.

Usual caveats apply, if someone is literally disabled then maybe they are without options. But the average poor person is very much a victim of their own bad decisions. A poor person who makes good decisions won't remain poor for long.
I'd characterize that as blind privilege coupled with unconscious Just World fallacy.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:56 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
No, you save first and then budget the rest. The less money you make the more important it is to save some up to have a cushion. Just because people choose not to do this doesn't mean they don't have the resources.

I can see TEMPORARY circumstances that would lead to not having savings, but that's an emergency. If your entire life is an emergency than you've not made very good decisions have you?

I find it interesting that people in China save money at a much higher rate than americans even though they are far poorer. I go into the houses of poor people in the USA and they have flatscreen TV's, iphones, videogame system and they own cars. They spend every penny they have and then they run up the credit cards. If they manage to own a home they mine the home equity for more lifestyle.

So no sorry I don't accept your view that people can't afford to save. I think they make their decisions and live with the results.

Again, I've seen many poor people turn their lives around through better financial management. This applies at any income level, although if your income is super low the first order of business would be to find a way to generate more income.

Usual caveats apply, if someone is literally disabled then maybe they are without options. But the average poor person is very much a victim of their own bad decisions. A poor person who makes good decisions won't remain poor for long.
You want some sugar with your spoon? I think you are the one making the bad choice. Has anybody else notice how much of the food the food shelves are giving is rotten expired crap that has to go straight to the garbage. It was not like that when the government was buying the surplus and giving it away
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:56 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
China is poor but they save and invest so they can get more wealthy. US citizens feel comfortable being a lot richer and piss away their money. They could save a lot more, be frugal and live safer lifestyles. Instead it's spend spend spend.
I don't believe China's version of capitalism involves the sort of universal, feudalistic extraction of "economic rent" we have in the West, and particularly in the US.

Here, the FIRE sector consumes people's economic surplus.

ETA:
How many days of labor is the cost of setting and putting a cast on a broken arm bone in China?

In the US, it's $30k. That's a whole year's worth of many people's labor.
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Last edited by kellyb; 3rd December 2019 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:15 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd characterize that as blind privilege coupled with unconscious Just World fallacy.
I would characterize it as a superior education around the details of personal finance. Education that anyone can find on the internet if they care to look and try to improve their financial position. Yes even poor people in the USA can access the internet.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:19 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
I would characterize it as a superior education around the details of personal finance. Education that anyone can find on the internet if they care to look and try to improve their financial position. Yes even poor people in the USA can access the internet.
The secret to being a healthy weight is to eat less and exercise. That everyone isn't thin is proof of their laziness, stupidity, and moral failing.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:20 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't believe China's version of capitalism involves the sort of universal, feudalistic extraction of "economic rent" we have in the West, and particularly in the US.

Here, the FIRE sector consumes people's economic surplus.

ETA:
How many days of labor is the cost of setting and putting a cast on a broken arm bone in China?

In the US, it's $30k. That's a whole year's worth of many people's labor.
You haven't made an particular counter point here about why people in the USA can't save. In fact if anything you are arguing my point for me, if a broken arm costs $30k you better have some savings for when an emergency happens.

The US has the richest people in the world but a pretty sad savings rate. This is lifestyle choice, consumer society, keeping up with the joneses etc. It's lifestyle and choice.

Again, if you are disabled or simply too old to work you might be in a bind. I think it's important to look at people's entire lifetime of work here when talking about this stuff though.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:22 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The secret to being a healthy weight is to eat less and exercise. That everyone isn't thin is proof of their laziness, stupidity, and moral failing.
What is this the gish gallop? Why not address my actual evidence with some of your own?

The fact is that people not saving is on them. It's their life and their decision. But I don't accept for a second that it's impossible for people to save, even when poor. The evidence says otherwise.

The reason you can't provide evidence is that your hypothesis doesn't make sense. Of course poor people could prioritize savings in this country. For many reasons they choose not to.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:27 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
What is this the gish gallop? Why not address my actual evidence with some of your own?

The fact is that people not saving is on them. It's their life and their decision. But I don't accept for a second that it's impossible for people to save, even when poor. The evidence says otherwise.

The reason you can't provide evidence is that your hypothesis doesn't make sense. Of course poor people could prioritize savings in this country. For many reasons they choose not to.
How much do you weigh? As you've established the principle that people are completely in control of their lives, and can overcome any obstacles through willpower and effort, it seems only logical to assume you yourself possess an excellent physique.

As for evidence it's still basic math. If it costs X to live and someone brings in X amount they cannot save. There has to be a difference between expense and income to have a surplus.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:33 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As for evidence it's still basic math. If it costs X to live and someone brings in X amount they cannot save. There has to be a difference between expense and income to have a surplus.

The "costs X" to live part is completely fungible. Live what lifestyle exactly?

The funny part about you bringing up people's weight is that it goes to my point exactly. Poor people in the USA are literally fat because it's so easy and cheap to acquire food here.

That's not to say there aren't life challenges here but most people are doing a piss poor job of managing their personal finances. They don't save, they run up debts.

You can take two sets of people with the same income. Some will put the money into lifestyle, others will live a lesser lifestyle and save. Eventually the latter will end up with a significantly higher net worth than the former.

Being poor, except on a temporary emergency basis, is a lifestyle choice in the USA.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 12:35 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
The "costs X" to live part is completely fungible. Live what lifestyle exactly?

The funny part about you bringing up people's weight is that it goes to my point exactly. Poor people in the USA are literally fat because it's so easy and cheap to acquire food here.

That's not to say there aren't life challenges here but most people are doing a piss poor job of managing their personal finances. They don't save, they run up debts.

You can take two sets of people with the same income. Some will put the money into lifestyle, others will live a lesser lifestyle and save. Eventually the latter will end up with a significantly higher net worth than the former.

Being poor, except on a temporary emergency basis, is a lifestyle choice in the USA.
I notice you didn't answer about your weight. Surely it's even easier to control one's weight than one's income?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 02:48 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post

I go into the houses of poor people in the USA and they have flatscreen TV's, iphones, videogame system and they own cars. They spend every penny they have and then they run up the credit cards. If they manage to own a home they mine the home equity for more lifestyle.
Those aren't poor people.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 03:17 PM   #615
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There is a related issue that the lack of reasonable cost controls in healthcare makes saving any asset that can be attached by a creditor a foolish move.

As per the more middle class "poor" that have nice TVs and go on vacation or whatever anyway. It makes a ton more sense to use your money to enjoy life than to save it up so you can write a huge check later when you are unable to work and can't pay. You end up broke either way. In most cases he optimal savings amount is the bankruptcy filing fees.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 03:28 PM   #616
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If you have $20, and that's the only money you have this week, can you afford to put even a dollar into savings? Yes, this is a realistic scenario. Millions of people in the US are in this position, not to mention in developing countries.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd characterize that as blind privilege coupled with unconscious Just World fallacy.
This. Privilege definitely. NewtonTrino has never been poor. Has never had to be concerned about whether to eat today.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 03:58 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There is a related issue that the lack of reasonable cost controls in healthcare makes saving any asset that can be attached by a creditor a foolish move.

As per the more middle class "poor" that have nice TVs and go on vacation or whatever anyway. It makes a ton more sense to use your money to enjoy life than to save it up so you can write a huge check later when you are unable to work and can't pay. You end up broke either way. In most cases he optimal savings amount is the bankruptcy filing fees.
Bancruptcy has a very low success rate these days unless you are very rich and can hire a very good lawyer. It’s kind of like immigration process in that there is no good free advice available
Since this whole thread is about neutrino now and he is promoting China as some kind of utopia we should emulate I might mention that in China family is everything and if you family is not on the gravy train you might get you picture taken on refugee .org before you die
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:03 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
flatscreen TV's

So speaks the red-top tabloid. There is no other sort of TV available now. My last CRT TV gave up the ghost about ten years ago. (Oh, I also had a small portable CRT TV which didn't malfunction, but I had to throw it out as they switched off the analogue TV signal which was all it could receive.)

For "flat-screen TV" read "TV". Your prejudice and hatred for poor people is showing.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 05:12 PM   #619
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If that's NewtonTrino's car in their avatar, it's clear what level of privilege we're talking about.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:10 PM   #620
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How come the only people I know who regularly and vocally advocate for UBI are either perpetually unemployed or severally malcontent about their jobs and life?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:32 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
How come the only people I know who regularly and vocally advocate for UBI are either perpetually unemployed or severally malcontent about their jobs and life?
Maybe you need to meet more people?

Although people that advocate for change tend to not be all that fond of the status quo. There is a connection there.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:34 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Those aren't poor people.
No joke!
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Old 3rd December 2019, 07:39 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
You haven't made an particular counter point here about why people in the USA can't save. In fact if anything you are arguing my point for me, if a broken arm costs $30k you better have some savings for when an emergency happens.
You CAN'T save when a basic medical need like setting a broken arm bone is $30K - a year's worth of labor. Every penny you pinch gets gobbled up by the medical system. Or college. Or a mortgage/rent (if you're unwilling to live in the ghetto.)
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:02 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
How come the only people I know who regularly and vocally advocate for UBI are either perpetually unemployed or severally malcontent about their jobs and life?
I am neither.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 08:36 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You CAN'T save when a basic medical need like setting a broken arm bone is $30K - a year's worth of labor. Every penny you pinch gets gobbled up by the medical system. Or college. Or a mortgage/rent (if you're unwilling to live in the ghetto.)
The disincentive to work when one is at the poverty level is real. The system as it exists really does hammer people for moving from generational profound poverty to working poor. The sick thing is when people think the solution is to make it worse for the poor people rather than a ubi/uhc type solution that eliminates the issue altogether and helps the working poor.

That anyone in the working poor continues to struggle is 100% about personal pride and class ethos. The idea that a UBI would cause someone to just quit working is complete garbage. As it is most of them would already be better off if they quit or at least did so and worked a bit under the table but stayed clear of the medicaid threshold and took food stamps. However, any working class person that did this would just die inside.

(cool story, bro alert)

I know. I grew up working poor and managed to climb out of it. I then got sick and lost everything at one point and wound up on SSDI. I could have ran out the clock on that, but I couldn't stand it and wound up working again against medical advice even though all in all it it put me in a slightly worse spot financially, mostly because I'd be punting medicare and I'm not a well person. Which is alarming in that I'm a lawyer, a salaried public defender so not rolling in it, but still I took a small hit to go back to work.

However, when I went back to work my condition improved quite a bit. Way less anxiety and this helps things.

You don't get to quit being working class. It is who you are, and I don't think I'd be alive if I didn't go back to working. I'm rare in that I don't judge those who are fine not working. They just haven't had that need baked in, and I almost feel envy.

One thing UBI would do is eliminate a lot of resentment between the working poor and the profoundly poor, and that resentment is a huge part of how they wind up supporting conservative causes. It makes total visceral sense that blue collar types will be so mad at the poor when they see the poor get the free healthcare and such while they skate the razor edge of disaster.

One thing ubi won't do is stop the people who want to work from working. It isn't all about money.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:15 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you have $20, and that's the only money you have this week, can you afford to put even a dollar into savings? Yes, this is a realistic scenario. Millions of people in the US are in this position, not to mention in developing countries.

This. Privilege definitely. NewtonTrino has never been poor. Has never had to be concerned about whether to eat today.
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
(respectful snip)

For "flat-screen TV" read "TV". Your prejudice and hatred for poor people is showing.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If that's NewtonTrino's car in their avatar, it's clear what level of privilege we're talking about.
I'm going to do something a bit out of character here, and jump in with a defense of NewtonTrino. His claim, which I will accept at face value simply because it's plausible, is he arrived as an immigrant to the USA with very few assets. Did he even have a job when he arrived, or did he have to find one? Provided what he's been telling us is true, he managed to work his way up from having almost nothing to running a successful business. If car in the avatar is his and he purchased it from the proceeds of the business, then he has done very well for himself.

Having said that, his mistake is believing anyone can do this. Running a business can be a hit or miss thing, depending on the nature of the business. A friend of mine ran a successful sporting goods firm here in town, but had to shut down when the bank called a loan. Another business I know of went down because two very large chain stores selling similar stuff at a much lower price entered the local market. I know of more than one company that failed to come back after a fire.

I call this the "fallacy of the expert," where a person with expertise in one area simply assumes everyone else can and should acquire that expertise. I'm sort of like that. I've been a computer professional for over thirty years. Every week I hear of people who have suffered a significant data loss because they failed to back up their systems. I really have to check myself from saying, "What the hell were they thinking? Why didn't they back up their data?" The answer is because as a computer professional, for me backups are a priority and I've invested time doing them for my systems. Not everyone has the required knowledge or skills to do it.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:44 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I'm going to do something a bit out of character here, and jump in with a defense of NewtonTrino. His claim, which I will accept at face value simply because it's plausible, is he arrived as an immigrant to the USA with very few assets. Did he even have a job when he arrived, or did he have to find one? Provided what he's been telling us is true, he managed to work his way up from having almost nothing to running a successful business. If car in the avatar is his and he purchased it from the proceeds of the business, then he has done very well for himself.

Having said that, his mistake is believing anyone can do this. Running a business can be a hit or miss thing, depending on the nature of the business. A friend of mine ran a successful sporting goods firm here in town, but had to shut down when the bank called a loan. Another business I know of went down because two very large chain stores selling similar stuff at a much lower price entered the local market. I know of more than one company that failed to come back after a fire.

I call this the "fallacy of the expert," where a person with expertise in one area simply assumes everyone else can and should acquire that expertise. I'm sort of like that. I've been a computer professional for over thirty years. Every week I hear of people who have suffered a significant data loss because they failed to back up their systems. I really have to check myself from saying, "What the hell were they thinking? Why didn't they back up their data?" The answer is because as a computer professional, for me backups are a priority and I've invested time doing them for my systems. Not everyone has the required knowledge or skills to do it.
This is a very good point, and well-made.
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Old 4th December 2019, 03:50 AM   #628
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Another way of looking at it is that what NT seems to be saying is that poor people can't blame anyone else for being poor - they are poor because they are stupid.

But who should they blame being stupid on? Some people just are stupid, and it's not our fault. Why should we be punished for what amounts to losing a lottery?
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:15 AM   #629
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There's another point there. Some people are not very bright. Not everyone has the smarts to do what Newtontrino did. It's probably literally impossible for someone with an IQ a little lower than the population average to do that.

Should we condemn them to a life of hell because they weren't born clever?
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:21 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't believe China's version of capitalism involves the sort of universal, feudalistic extraction of "economic rent" we have in the West, and particularly in the US.

Here, the FIRE sector consumes people's economic surplus.

ETA:
How many days of labor is the cost of setting and putting a cast on a broken arm bone in China?

In the US, it's $30k. That's a whole year's worth of many people's labor.
I live in China. Last month I got an MRI for about $100. I also don't have medical insurance.

Not sure how much it would cost to get a bone set and a cast put on, but I did break my toes a couple of times here. I don't remember exactly how much I spent on the hospital visit/consultation/X-ray but I'm pretty sure it was under $100.
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:57 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There's another point there. Some people are not very bright. Not everyone has the smarts to do what Newtontrino did. It's probably literally impossible for someone with an IQ a little lower than the population average to do that.

Should we condemn them to a life of hell because they weren't born clever?
That's exactly what I thought I was saying. I probably wasn't clear enough due to being so stupid.
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Old 4th December 2019, 05:14 AM   #632
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I thought you were taking "stupid" as an insult. But I see the way you meant it to be read. One of the great advantages of a UBI would be in supporting people who simply are not granted the natural skills to become self-made entrepreneurs.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:17 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Another way of looking at it is that what NT seems to be saying is that poor people can't blame anyone else for being poor - they are poor because they are stupid.

But who should they blame being stupid on? Some people just are stupid, and it's not our fault. Why should we be punished for what amounts to losing a lottery?
Being stupid is neither a character flaw, nor a crime.
Yet we have an entire economic system necessitating the exploitation of that stupidity.


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Old 4th December 2019, 07:13 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
No, you save first and then budget the rest. The less money you make the more important it is to save some up to have a cushion. Just because people choose not to do this doesn't mean they don't have the resources.

I can see TEMPORARY circumstances that would lead to not having savings, but that's an emergency. If your entire life is an emergency than you've not made very good decisions have you?

I find it interesting that people in China save money at a much higher rate than americans even though they are far poorer. I go into the houses of poor people in the USA and they have flatscreen TV's, iphones, videogame system and they own cars. They spend every penny they have and then they run up the credit cards. If they manage to own a home they mine the home equity for more lifestyle.

So no sorry I don't accept your view that people can't afford to save. I think they make their decisions and live with the results.

Again, I've seen many poor people turn their lives around through better financial management. This applies at any income level, although if your income is super low the first order of business would be to find a way to generate more income.

Usual caveats apply, if someone is literally disabled then maybe they are without options. But the average poor person is very much a victim of their own bad decisions. A poor person who makes good decisions won't remain poor for long.


Can I ask if you've ever spent tome time on, oh, I think it's called, Earth?
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Old 4th December 2019, 07:14 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I live in China. Last month I got an MRI for about $100. I also don't have medical insurance.

Not sure how much it would cost to get a bone set and a cast put on, but I did break my toes a couple of times here. I don't remember exactly how much I spent on the hospital visit/consultation/X-ray but I'm pretty sure it was under $100.
And in the Philippines a useless ultrasound costs 300. I am guessing that China might be a place that does not nickel and dime everyone causing everything to go up. Also saw crappy clothes being sold for a price there.

Also many people have made the point that it’s not the same everywhere but fail to understand that you can’t immigrate if you poor
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Old 4th December 2019, 08:24 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Those aren't poor people.
That was what I was thinking. Poor people, at least in the UK, wouldn't be able to afford the electricity to run all those devices!
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Old 4th December 2019, 08:54 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I'm going to do something a bit out of character here, and jump in with a defense of NewtonTrino. His claim, which I will accept at face value simply because it's plausible, is he arrived as an immigrant to the USA with very few assets. Did he even have a job when he arrived, or did he have to find one? Provided what he's been telling us is true, he managed to work his way up from having almost nothing to running a successful business. If car in the avatar is his and he purchased it from the proceeds of the business, then he has done very well for himself.

Having said that, his mistake is believing anyone can do this. Running a business can be a hit or miss thing, depending on the nature of the business. A friend of mine ran a successful sporting goods firm here in town, but had to shut down when the bank called a loan. Another business I know of went down because two very large chain stores selling similar stuff at a much lower price entered the local market. I know of more than one company that failed to come back after a fire.

I call this the "fallacy of the expert," where a person with expertise in one area simply assumes everyone else can and should acquire that expertise. I'm sort of like that. I've been a computer professional for over thirty years. Every week I hear of people who have suffered a significant data loss because they failed to back up their systems. I really have to check myself from saying, "What the hell were they thinking? Why didn't they back up their data?" The answer is because as a computer professional, for me backups are a priority and I've invested time doing them for my systems. Not everyone has the required knowledge or skills to do it.
The term is "survivorship bias." You can't extrapolate what makes success just by considering the successful.
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:25 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The term is "survivorship bias." You can't extrapolate what makes success just by considering the successful.
There's an XKCD for that.


https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/survivorship_bias.png
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Old 4th December 2019, 09:40 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That was what I was thinking. Poor people, at least in the UK, wouldn't be able to afford the electricity to run all those devices!


With all the insurance schemes or what have you -social programs, free healthcare, etc- there are still poor people in the UK who can’t even afford electricity? Homelessness is one thing if that’s what you are talking about. But I put homelessness in a separate category -that is a catastrophic form of poverty brought on by mental illness, drug abuse, etc and has its own unique set of problems and potential solutions from what we are discussing here. I don’t think a UBI is going to help them much. Doesn’t the UK have a stipend for unemployed people already?
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Old 4th December 2019, 10:38 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
With all the insurance schemes or what have you -social programs, free healthcare, etc- there are still poor people in the UK who can’t even afford electricity? Homelessness is one thing if that’s what you are talking about. But I put homelessness in a separate category -that is a catastrophic form of poverty brought on by mental illness, drug abuse, etc and has its own unique set of problems and potential solutions from what we are discussing here. I don’t think a UBI is going to help them much. Doesn’t the UK have a stipend for unemployed people already?
There is an unemployment allowance but it is very small (up to a maximum of £73 per week for a single person over 25, which is about 25% of the minimum wage ). Eligibility is affected by savings and earnings. You can only earn a small amount before losing it and are expected to use up most of your savings before claiming or get a reduced rate if you have more than minimal savings. There is also a housing benefit that can be claimed up to the median rent for the applicable type of housing in the area, with various restrictions.
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