Hillsborough Disaster:The truth at last

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I base my judgement on observing your forum posts, and observing that in just about every thread where a miscarriage of justice is being discussed, you appear and take the line that the convicted person must be guilty because the court said so.

Yeah, like I'm backing the police in this thread.

[Rolfe]

Just thinking about the probability that misconduct in office will inevitably be punished, and if you'll forgive another Lockerbie analogy, there was a procurator fiscal in that case who knowingly supplied false information to the court. He was asked to assure the court that certain evidence which had not been disclosed to the defence did not harm the credibility of the prosecution's star witness. He lied, absolutely lied in his teeth, and informed the court that the redacted information in no way impinged on the credibility of the witness.

As it happened, the court decided to rule that the redacted information should be revealed anyway. It fatally undermined the credibility of the witness, who was revealed as a money-grubbing fantasist performing to order for his masters, who themselves regarded him as utterly untrustworthy.

What happened to the procurator fiscal? Absolutely nothing at all. Not a word of censure, let alone any sanction. He prospered mightily, and is now in a very senior and highly-paid position. If that had been done by a defence advocate, the culprit would have been in front of the Law Society before you could say "disgraceful professional misconduct". Some time later, one of the judges concerned was asked why no proceedings had been taken against the dishonest prosecutor. The judge replied, "oh, we forgot all about that."

The establishment looks after its own. The bench overlooks misconduct from the "right" side. The coroner at Hillsborough made sure the medical evidence supported the police. The expert witnesses tortured statistics to support the police case. None of these people will ever get as much as a slap on the wrist for it.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

Yeah, like I'm backing the police in this thread.

You're accepting the official verdict. Which now is the 2012 Hillsborough report.

I'm pointing out that someone has to disbelieve the police before the results of the inquiry are made public, even to get that inquiry off the ground in the first place. It was a long hard slog to get that inquiry off the ground. Same for Bloody Sunday. The people who did the slogging are the ones who should really be commended.

Rolfe.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Alt+F4

I'm a New York City public school teacher of high school and a life long New Yorker, so yeah, I understand the real world. What I don't understand is people going against their own self interests to carry on a cover up that would certainly one day be uncovered. I understand that they did do it, I just can't imagine why.

Because, years later, memories of the event tend to fade, people have moved on, pensions have kicked in and the potential anger of many has turned into the specific anger of the few victims. It has become somewhat academic.

s.o.p. from The Establishment.

Years down the line a similar truth will emerge about Megrahi and most people will say "Ah yes, that business. Shame. Oh well".

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

They have had a tendency to be a corrupt bunch, yes. However, they have also repeatedly shown themselves to be fine public servants who often put their lives on the line to protect law abiding citizens.

The police both beat false confessions out of the Guildford Four, and drove ambulances when there was a strike. Who do we believe?

We go with the evidence. The vast majority of the police on duty in Sheffield that day were honest bobbies trying to do their job. They were badly let down by their senior officers.

They were doubly betrayed when these same senior officers ordered them to change their statements to omit any criticism, and especially to omit factual descriptions of orders that had been given at the time of the similar incident the previous year which demonstrated conclusively that these senior officers were well aware of the dangers posed by the Leppings Lane stand and knew what they should have done to mitigate the risk.

But then most of them acceded to having their statements altered.

People are complex. Not all black or all white. And an organisation is made up of a lot of people, some of whom are better people than others. We shouldn't stoop to the level of the Sun and imply that because there are some good and heroic policemen - maybe even a lot of them - we should overlook and condone misconduct in others.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by GlennB

Years down the line a similar truth will emerge about Megrahi and most people will say "Ah yes, that business. Shame. Oh well".

And when that happens, even if that's all it is, it will still be a victory.

The Bloody Sunday and Hillsborough reports are enormously encouraging to those of us currently sweating blood trying to get a similar inquiry set up into Lockerbie. We're fobbed off and stonewalled and derided as conspiracy theorists. But we have the evidence on our side, and this is not a totalitarian state, and it will happen in the end.

I'm only sorry the Hillsborough relatives had to wait 23 years for vindication.

Rolfe.

[jargon buster]

A result of this terrible event was that stadiums were made all seater and ticket prices rocketed.
Great news for the clubs.
CUE CONSPIRACY THEORY OF "IT WAS ALL PLANNED"

[Undesired Walrus]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

We shouldn't stoop to the level of the Sun and imply that because there are some good and heroic policemen - maybe even a lot of them - we should overlook and condone misconduct in others.

Rolfe.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that.

[Rolfe]

No, probably not. But it's an impression that can be given when responding to criticism of corrupt individuals in an organisation with the observation that there are also some fine and admirable people in the same organisation.

Rolfe.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

They have had a tendency to be a corrupt bunch, yes. However, they have also repeatedly shown themselves to be fine public servants who often put their lives on the line to protect law abiding citizens.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

The truth sends you to sleep?

[Rolfe]

It may be the truth, but in context it sounded uncomfortably like the excusing of criminality.

Rolfe.

[JihadJane]

It's bland beyond bland, hence the soporific effect.

[Manger Douse]

South Yorkshire Police have 'previous' in fabricating evidence and framing people after The Battle of Orgreave. Wonder if that will be taken into account?

Accidents happened that day and I'm expecting most of those at the top responsible for this to be already retired on a fat pension long ago but as long as friends, neighbours and particularly the children of the people who lied, covered up, drew ranks and said nothing for 23 years know what they did...

[Shankly]

Originally Posted by Nessie

I feel a little bit sorry for The Sun as they ran the story based partly on information from four senior police officers. They have now apologised and I hope they use their clout to make sure the police responsible for the lies told after the disaster get soundly punished.

Other papers were fed the same lies, but actually bothered to check up first, unlike the Sun, who couldn't wait to swallow them and smear the hated football fans.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/gree...?newsfeed=true

[amensae]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The Bloody Sunday and Hillsborough reports are enormously encouraging to those of us currently sweating blood trying to get a similar inquiry set up into Lockerbie. We're fobbed off and stonewalled and derided as conspiracy theorists.

And the myth of the so-called Holocaust, and the truth about Area 51 and JFK... and don’t forget the Lizard People.

There is something truly appalling about using proven examples of official misconduct – in which innocent people have suffered – to support paranoid conspiracy “theories.”

[Rolfe]

Who's using anything to support a paranoid conspiracy theory? You're the first one to have brought the matter up.

Rolfe.

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by amensae

And the myth of the so-called Holocaust, and the truth about Area 51 and JFK... and don’t forget the Lizard People.

There is something truly appalling about using proven examples of official misconduct – in which innocent people have suffered – to support paranoid conspiracy “theories.”

Wow. Could you be more ignorant?

[Rolfe]

<SNIP>
The impact of the Hillsborough report has come at just the right time to concentrate some official minds, I hope. What was so refreshing about that report was the openness of the investigators to consider the possibility that the police had been engaged in misconduct. Too often the response of the Great and the Good to such suggestions is to assume that the police are on the side of the angels and bend over backwards to believe every excuse - and even find extra excuses where need be. This happened to some extent in the earlier stages of the Hillsborough process and seems to dog all such attempts to reverse injustices. So this report is a timely reminder.

Rolfe.

Edited by Locknar:

Edited, breach of rule 11.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

What was so refreshing about that report was the openness of the investigators to consider the possibility that the police had been engaged in misconduct.

Current spending plans require a cut in police numbers.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by geni

Current spending plans require a cut in police numbers.

And these would be senior officers too, so plenty of cost savings.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by geni

Current spending plans require a cut in police numbers.

Non sequitur.

Rolfe.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Non sequitur.

Rolfe.

Not really. The goverment wants to cut police spending. Creating public justification for the reform of the senior management teams is obviously in their interest.

This only applies within england mind. Other parts of the UK have their own issues.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by geni

Not really. The goverment wants to cut police spending. Creating public justification for the reform of the senior management teams is obviously in their interest.

This only applies within england mind. Other parts of the UK have their own issues.

How would cutting police numbers make the police less corrupt?

[The Don]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

How would cutting police numbers make the police less corrupt?

I read the comment as

How convenient that we have a reason to purge the Police Service of some bad apples just as the police is coming under pressure to reduce manpower. Shedding a few hundred "bad apples" will create a lot let public complaint than having to let long serving officers of good standing go.

[Rolfe]

I very much doubt that there were as many as "a few hundred" bad apples involved in the Hillsborough cover-up in the first place. I also imagine a fair percentage of those who were are now out of the force anyway.

I also don't think a deliberate strategy of undermining public confidence in the police (yet further) is a smart move, even in pursuit of budget cuts. Hang on, this is Cameron's lot, the word "smart" doesn't apply. Nevertheless, I don't think that cynical interpretation explains anything.

Rolfe.

[catsmate]

For anyone interested, the panel have made an array of supporting documentation available online

[Rolfe]

Wow, that's what I call open government. There's no doubt it's a daunting task to assimilate that sort of volume of information, but it can be done if you're an absolute geek on the subject, and for those with a good idea already of what they want to see it will be invaluable.

The knowledge that in the future information will be released right down to this level of detail should have a very salutary effect on those considering comparable misconduct in the future.

Rolfe.

[geni]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

How would cutting police numbers make the police less corrupt?

The level of corruption in the british police is at background noise level.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I very much doubt that there were as many as "a few hundred" bad apples involved in the Hillsborough cover-up in the first place. I also imagine a fair percentage of those who were are now out of the force anyway.

I also don't think a deliberate strategy of undermining public confidence in the police (yet further) is a smart move, even in pursuit of budget cuts. Hang on, this is Cameron's lot, the word "smart" doesn't apply. Nevertheless, I don't think that cynical interpretation explains anything.

Rolfe.

I took it to be a joke (or at least a gentle tease) on geni's part.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by The Don

I read the comment as

How convenient that we have a reason to purge the Police Service of some bad apples just as the police is coming under pressure to reduce manpower. Shedding a few hundred "bad apples" will create a lot let public complaint than having to let long serving officers of good standing go.

It's a good ingredient for a conspiracy theory but underestimates the public's intelligence.

The "bad apple" analogy is misplaced because public know that this isn't about bad apples but about normal police culture.

Furthermore, the public is able to differentiate between police involved in the Hilsborough cover-up, who they want to be held accountable, and those who weren't. Shrinking the force nationally is a completely different subject.

Originally Posted by geni

The level of corruption in the british police is at background noise level.

How loud is that, then?

Background noise varies considerably, depending on the environment.

[geni]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

How loud is that, then?

Background noise varies considerably, depending on the environment.

Well the environment is the united kingdom.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by geni

The level of corruption in the british police is at background noise level.

Letting that pass for a moment, bear in mind that this wasn't initially about corruption but about incompetence. I hate to break it to you, but the level of sheer dumb stupidity in the British police is well above background noise level.

The million-dollar-question is, what will the police do to prevent their stupidity and incompetence from being exposed?

Rolfe.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Letting that pass for a moment, bear in mind that this wasn't initially about corruption but about incompetence. I hate to break it to you, but the level of sheer dumb stupidity in the British police is well above background noise level.

The current economic issues and high levels of youth unemployment should do wonders for the quality of police recruits.

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I hate to break it to you, but the level of sheer dumb stupidity in the British police is well above background noise level.

Come to New York City. Any crimes that are solved seems to be by accident because the police are too busy shooting unarmed people.

Quote:

New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said all nine bystanders wounded in Friday's Empire State Building shooting had been hit with police gunfire.

Quote:

A worker in a Bronx bodega was shot and killed by police as he escaped an armed robbery in the store, police sources and witnesses said.

At least the bobbies don't carry guns.

[Rolfe]

And long may that continue!

Rolfe.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Letting that pass for a moment, bear in mind that this wasn't initially about corruption but about incompetence. I hate to break it to you, but the level of sheer dumb stupidity in the British police is well above background noise level.

The million-dollar-question is, what will the police do to prevent their stupidity and incompetence from being exposed?

Rolfe.

Dumb stupidity, really? The police work in a pretty unique environment where their 'customer' base is primarily made up of liars, devious, sociopathic, psychopathic people with a lack of morality that would astound most. That is not just the criminals, but it can be witnesses as well. Social Workers have a similar environment to work in but that is it. Other jobs have 'customers' who are not primarily dishonest and want to cooperate. If that stopped and people started to not cooperate, those not in the police would soon start to understand what it is like to be in the police. Critics of the police need to take the sheer dumb stupidity of the people they deal with into account and should go to court more often to see others in the criminal justice system and how dumb they can be as well.

For me the big issue is how to stop future cover ups. Number 1 should be prosecution of those involved in Hillsborough, retired or not.

[Rolfe]

No doubt. It still doesn't mean the police force is populated by Mensa candidates.

Rolfe.

[Nessie]

No the truth of the matter is just like all other jobs, there are very bright people, people who should never have been employed in the first place and a whole load more inbetween.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

No doubt. It still doesn't mean the police force is populated by Mensa candidates.

Rolfe.

I agree, most members of the Police Service I have met are not Mensa candidate material.

The sort of mundane activity which forms part of day to day policing isn't well suited to people who tend to be very cerebral. There may be a few places in the force for the very, very intelligent but I think that being able to follow instructions reliably, seeing tasks through to completion, having good interpersonal skills, displaying physical and emotional robustness and a number of other things may be of more use to the rank and file member of the Police Service.