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Tags Liverpool incidents , police misconduct charges , UK incidents

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Old 17th September 2012, 08:39 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Dumb stupidity, really? The police work in a pretty unique environment where their 'customer' base is primarily made up of liars, devious, sociopathic, psychopathic people with a lack of morality that would astound most.
This is of course pretty much the attitude that made it seem acceptable to cover up what happened in Hillsborough in the first place. Football fans are primarily socipathic immoral drunks who move around in a bloc causing havoc - and scousers to boot - and it would be a shame if a poor hard-working copper lost his job because a few of 'em got crushed. If they hadn't been behaving badly it wouldn't have happened in the first place!
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Old 17th September 2012, 08:42 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post





At least the bobbies don't carry guns.
the fact that police in the UK aren't routinely armed does not stop them from shooting or otherwise killing unarmed members of the public.
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Old 17th September 2012, 08:42 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I agree, most members of the Police Service I have met are not Mensa candidate material.

The sort of mundane activity which forms part of day to day policing isn't well suited to people who tend to be very cerebral. There may be a few places in the force for the very, very intelligent but I think that being able to follow instructions reliably, seeing tasks through to completion, having good interpersonal skills, displaying physical and emotional robustness and a number of other things may be of more use to the rank and file member of the Police Service.

To some degree that is of course true. However, there are circumstances where being fairly bright is quite important. Being able to figure out cause and effect in order to be proactive in managing the Hillsborough crowd would have been a good attribute, and might have avoided the fatalities. Another area is in detection. Poirot had a point about the "little grey cells", and there are rather a lot of examples where the absence of little grey cells has led to serious miscarriages of justice.

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Old 17th September 2012, 08:44 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by brodski View Post
the fact that police in the UK aren't routinely armed does not stop them from shooting or otherwise killing unarmed members of the public.

Too true. I dread to think what it would be like if they did carry guns all the time.

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Old 17th September 2012, 08:45 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by richardm View Post
This is of course pretty much the attitude that made it seem acceptable to cover up what happened in Hillsborough in the first place. Football fans are primarily socipathic immoral drunks who move around in a bloc causing havoc - and scousers to boot - and it would be a shame if a poor hard-working copper lost his job because a few of 'em got crushed. If they hadn't been behaving badly it wouldn't have happened in the first place!

Can I nominate that? Seems to get to the heart of the discussion in one fell swoop.

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Old 17th September 2012, 08:45 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by richardm View Post
This is of course pretty much the attitude that made it seem acceptable to cover up what happened in Hillsborough in the first place. Football fans are primarily socipathic immoral drunks who move around in a bloc causing havoc - and scousers to boot - and it would be a shame if a poor hard-working copper lost his job because a few of 'em got crushed. If they hadn't been behaving badly it wouldn't have happened in the first place!
I doubt anyone involved in the cover up thought what they were doing was acceptable. I think they thought they would get away with it as football fans were not well thought of at that time. An impression caused by the behavouir of a hard core group of football fans/hooligans.
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Old 17th September 2012, 08:48 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
To some degree that is of course true. However, there are circumstances where being fairly bright is quite important. Being able to figure out cause and effect in order to be proactive in managing the Hillsborough crowd would have been a good attribute, and might have avoided the fatalities. Another area is in detection. Poirot had a point about the "little grey cells", and there are rather a lot of examples where the absence of little grey cells has led to serious miscarriages of justice.

Rolfe.
Which is why there is another layer to the criminal justice system, the courts, where you have brighter minds going over what the police have been doing. Yet they fail as well when there is a miscarriage of justice.
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Old 17th September 2012, 09:31 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which is why there is another layer to the criminal justice system, the courts, where you have brighter minds going over what the police have been doing. Yet they fail as well when there is a miscarriage of justice.

I think you're missing a link there, and that is the prosecution. The prosecution is supposed to present all the evidence impartially to the court to allow the court to make up its mind. It doesn't do that. It cherry-picks the evidence to support the story the police have dreamed up, then goes hell-bent on getting another notch on the bedpost.

Add to that mix the mindset of the bench and/or the jury which assumes that the police and the Crown are the good guys only interested in the pursuit of truth, while the defence are hired guns paid to spin the material to try to get their client off, and it becomes pretty toxic.

Have you read this? A Legal Fable. (It's short and I'd like to quote it all but the rules forbid it.)

Quote:
In each case, after all the evidence had been heard (and the blood on the courtroom floor had been mopped up) the Pee-Eff-Dee would address the jury of shell-shocked citizens. Here is what she always said:

“The Crown has no interest in obtaining convictions. The Crown’s only functions are to place before you all the material in its possession that you can properly take into account in reaching your decision to convict or to acquit, and to test any such material placed before you by the defence. The Crown neither wins nor loses cases, it contributes to the doing of justice.”

The jury would sometimes look surprised on hearing this. But the wise old temporary sheriff reaffirmed it when his turn came to address the jury. Because that is how it really was in those far off days.

When did it all change? That is a tale for another day.

Sometimes I feel quite frightened by some of the stuff that happens. I'm reassured mostly by the fact that my socioeconomic group and lack of any criminal record put me in a category of persons unlikely to fall foul of this. But it happens to people, and I see how it happens. I don't know what to do about it.

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Old 17th September 2012, 09:36 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sometimes I feel quite frightened by some of the stuff that happens. I'm reassured more by the fact that my socioeconomic group and lack of any criminal record put me in a category of persons unlikely to fall foul of this. But it happens to people, and I see how it happens. I don't know what to do about it.

Rolfe.
Well, for a start you can be extremely grateful that you do not live in South Africa.
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Old 17th September 2012, 10:04 AM   #130
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Oh, sure, there are far worse places. But that doesn't make our situation any better, really.

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Old 17th September 2012, 10:28 AM   #131
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I noticed this posted in another thread by Jimbob. It's from the inquiry into the Stockwell affair - the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Quote:
It is clear that the rumours circulated outside NSY and this is evidenced by D/Insp. Howarth at Marylebone Police Station who had no role in the shooting or terrorism investigations. He was told by a senior officer at 17:00hrs on 22 July that there had been a massive ‘cock up’ at Stockwell and a Brazilian tourist had been shot. Most disappointingly, despite several requests, he refused to assist the investigation by identifying the officer concerned even though he admitted that he knew of his identity. The IPCC finds it unacceptable that an MPS officer should refuse to cooperate with what at the time was a criminal investigation.

This seems to be another example of a police officer going straight into cover-up mode. He was told by a senior officer pretty much what actually happened, at a very early stage. This is clear evidence that the senior echeons of the police knew what had actually happened, at that early stage. But they were putting out "blame the victim" press releases then, and later.

The officer concerned obviously realised the implications of what he had been told. So he refused to reveal the identity of the officer who told him, to prevent the IPCC from being able to trace how much was known about at that stage. This would of course have highlighted that what was going on (with Blair's statements and so on) was already a cover-up.

This is very analogous to the Hillsborough evidence being purged of any indication that the police had taken active steps to prevent an identical tragedy the previous year. Because that would demonstrate that their story of "we had no idea this danger was even possible" was a pack of lies.

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Old 17th September 2012, 11:29 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think you're missing a link there, and that is the prosecution. The prosecution is supposed to present all the evidence impartially to the court to allow the court to make up its mind. It doesn't do that. It cherry-picks the evidence to support the story the police have dreamed up, then goes hell-bent on getting another notch on the bedpost.

.....
Now a days in Scotland with full disclosure, that does not happen any more and a PF who tries to introduce evidence the defence were not aware of will have a lot of explaining to do. Normally it will result in a delay as the defence gets to consider the new evidence. The problems of coping with full disclosure is a major issue for the courts

http://www.firmmagazine.com/news/300...Inspector.html

As for your fears, too much time studying the failures has squinted your perspective.
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Old 17th September 2012, 11:39 AM   #133
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I think your latter point is probably true to a certain extent, which is why I don't behave in a day to day manner as if I was afraid of the police.

I don't think full disclosure is the complete answer. The police do the investigating. Who follows up the leads they didn't bother with? And then again, it comes down to whose narrative do you go with, in terms of how the evidence is interpreted. A predisposition to believe the prosecution (because they are supposed to be investigating impartially and aren't going to go to jail of they lose) +/- defence lawyers missing a trick, and you're still in big trouble.

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Old 17th September 2012, 11:46 AM   #134
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I sometimes think, we behave as if we live in an Inspector Alleyn novel, or maybe Rebus or Morse. The doughty detective always gets there in the end. The villain he fingers in the last chapter is the guy who did it. He thinks his way through the clues and makes the right deductions, and the case is solved.

Maybe we really live in the world of the Five Find-outers.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th September 2012, 11:51 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
.... Who follows up the leads they didn't bother with? .....
The PF. The police will be instructed to make further enquiries. It happens regularly.
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Old 17th September 2012, 12:19 PM   #136
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And so we come full circle.

Justice requires that the investigators and prosecutors be as impartially open-minded as is humanly possible. However, human nature is a bugger. People miss things they shouldn't miss, people get ideas into their head, and people are incredibly susceptible to group-think and confirmation bias. The PF is all too often inclined to go with the narrative being presented.

Last year I told a particular PF about six times that the evidence I would give as regards time of death left a huge hole for a defence advocate to drive straight through. Oh no, she was going to go forward anyway, because of some absolutely tenuous circumstantial evidence that proved precisely nothing. (The case still hasn't made it to court, it may be time-barred now.)

I now know exactly what the PF did in the case which dare not speak its name. Looked straight at the evidence that the police had completely screwed up ten years previously, realised what he was looking at, and proceeded to devise a false scenario to present to the court to prevent the case collapsing. He got away with it, too.

So no, I don't see the PF as providing the necessary counterbalance.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th September 2012, 01:34 PM   #137
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It was still the answer to your question and you again are finding extreme cases and fearing the worst for all. I do wonder how 32,105 posts on a forum like this can skew someones view of a subject, in your case too far the other way.

The real problem for the PF is time. They do not have enough time to do their work.
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Old 17th September 2012, 02:19 PM   #138
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I certainly agree with that. The workload is ridiculous. However, the effect of that is to encourage an acceptance of the police narrative, rather than dispassionate scrutiny of it.

I've agreed that I'm a bit schizophrenic about the subject. I do not behave in my daily life as if I expect the worst from the police. I agree that the cases I'm mentioning are extreme, and a minority. But we haven't even mentioned Shirley McKie yet....

Rolfe.
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Old 17th September 2012, 03:39 PM   #139
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It is more a case of skim reading everything, from police reports to witness statements to defence submissions.

It also works the other way in that PFs will drop cases with a ton of evidence, even clear CCTV of the crime being committed. I see such just as much of a miscarriage of justice as the wrong person being convicted.
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Old 17th September 2012, 03:43 PM   #140
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Not quite so much. People get away with things every day, for all sorts of reasons. People being banged up for things they didn't do is to me a lot more serious.

But agreed, we need to demand better from our criminal justice system overall.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th September 2012, 03:44 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

...

I've agreed that I'm a bit schizophrenic about the subject. I do not behave in my daily life as if I expect the worst from the police. I agree that the cases I'm mentioning are extreme, and a minority. But we haven't even mentioned Shirley McKie yet....

Rolfe.
I don't know what you do, but lets say you are a doctor. If I only read about and spoke of medical mistakes, cover ups and incompetence, I would fear to go anywhere near a hospital. How would you feel about that?
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Old 17th September 2012, 03:53 PM   #142
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I can manage the same schizophrenia on that one. I just do it in the Science and Medicine part of the forum.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th September 2012, 04:06 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is more a case of skim reading everything, from police reports to witness statements to defence submissions.

It also works the other way in that PFs will drop cases with a ton of evidence, even clear CCTV of the crime being committed. I see such just as much of a miscarriage of justice as the wrong person being convicted.
That misses the point that when the wrong person is convicted, it usually means the guilty go free as well. That's inherently twice as bad as merely failing to make a prosecution.
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Old 17th September 2012, 07:08 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Wow. Could you be more ignorant?

Yes, I’m sure I could be.

(But I don’t blame everything bad that happens on the CIA.)

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Old 18th September 2012, 03:19 AM   #145
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That's a serious non-sequitur. I don't see anyone blaming Hillsborough on the CIA for a start.

Rolfe.
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Old 18th September 2012, 03:31 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't see anyone blaming Hillsborough on the CIA for a start.

Rolfe.
Correct. The cops blamed the drunken soccer hooligans whose reputation has preceded them for years and the survivors and their families blame the cops.

One policeman opens the gates, lies about it afterwards and his colleagues protect him and perpetuate the lie.

The truth is out and no CIA involved.

Have I got this right?
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Old 18th September 2012, 03:59 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
To some degree that is of course true. However, there are circumstances where being fairly bright is quite important. Being able to figure out cause and effect in order to be proactive in managing the Hillsborough crowd would have been a good attribute, and might have avoided the fatalities. Another area is in detection. Poirot had a point about the "little grey cells", and there are rather a lot of examples where the absence of little grey cells has led to serious miscarriages of justice.

Rolfe.
To be fair the ambulance service didn't do any better, despite having two senior offices a pitch level. The sheer incompetence of both emergency services regarding the activation of the Major Incident plan also beggars belief.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which is why there is another layer to the criminal justice system, the courts, where you have brighter minds going over what the police have been doing. Yet they fail as well when there is a miscarriage of justice.
I've been involved in that other layer and it doesn't help much; prosecutors are only interested (in the vast majority of cases) with achieving a conviction and in submitting evidence that supports that goal.

Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
Correct. The cops blamed the drunken soccer hooligans whose reputation has preceded them for years and the survivors and their families blame the cops.

One policeman opens the gates, lies about it afterwards and his colleagues protect him and perpetuate the lie.

The truth is out and no CIA involved.

Have I got this right?
It's a bit more complicated. Sheffield Wednesday Football Club also come off as being far more concerned with money than safety. The response to the crushing in the stand was poor, medical efforts were delayed an uncoordinated. The regime of inspection and certification of sports grounds was ineffectual. Concerns of the Fire Service about safety and evacuation were ignored.

Here's part of the summary from the panel's report:
Quote:
15 April 1989 over 50,000 men, women and children travelled by train, coach and car to Hillsborough Stadium, home of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, to watch an FA Cup Semi-Final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. It was a sunny, warm, spring day and one of the high points of the English football season.
Hillsborough was a neutral venue, like so many stadia of its time a mix of seated areas and modified standing terraces. As the match started, amid the roar of the crowd it became apparent that in the central area of the Leppings Lane terrace, already visibly overcrowded before kick-off, Liverpool fans were in considerable distress.
In fact, the small area in which the crush occurred comprised two pens. Fans had entered down a tunnel under the West Stand into the central pens 3 and 4. Each pen was segregated by lateral fences and a high, overhanging fence between the terrace and the perimeter track around the pitch. There was a small locked gate at the front of each pen.
The crush became unbearable and fans collapsed underfoot. To the front of pen 3 a safety barrier broke, creating a pile of people struggling for breath. Despite CCTV cameras transmitting images of distress in the crowd to the Ground Control Room and to the Police Control Box, and the presence of officers on duty on the perimeter track, it was a while before the seriousness of what was happening was realised and rescue attempts were
made.
As the match was stopped and fans were pulled from the terrace through the narrow gates onto the pitch, the enormity of the tragedy became evident. Fans tore down advertising hoardings and used them to carry the dead and dying the full length of the pitch to the stadium gymnasium.
Ninety-six women, men and children died as a consequence of the crush, while hundreds more were injured and thousands traumatised. In the immediate aftermath there was a rush to judgement concerning the cause of the disaster and culpability. In a climate of allegation and counter-allegation, the Government appointed Lord Justice Taylor to lead a judicial inquiry.
What followed, over an 11-year period, were various different modes and levels of scrutiny, including LJ Taylor’s Interim and Final Reports, civil litigation, criminal and disciplinary investigations, the inquests into the deaths of the victims, judicial reviews, a judicial scrutiny of new evidence conducted by Lord Justice Stuart-Smith, and the private prosecution of the two most senior police officers in command on the day.
Despite this range of inquiry and investigation, many bereaved families and survivors considered that the true context, circumstances and aftermath of Hillsborough had not been adequately made public. They were also profoundly concerned that following unsubstantiated allegations made by senior police officers and politicians and reported widely in the press, it had become widely assumed that Liverpool fans’ behaviour had contributed to, if not caused, the disaster.
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Old 18th September 2012, 04:35 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
Correct. The cops blamed the drunken soccer hooligans whose reputation has preceded them for years and the survivors and their families blame the cops.

Broadly, yes.

Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
One policeman opens the gates, lies about it afterwards and his colleagues protect him and perpetuate the lie.

Broadly, no.

There was a developing crush outside the stadium, at the Leppings Lane turnstiles. This was due to a combination of factors. The more numerous Liverpool supporters had been allocated the smaller stand because the police thought it was easier geographically to get them to that end of the stadium. Each of these turnstiles had to process over three times the number of audience members the turnstiles at the other end had to get through. (In fact at the rate they were going it would have taken until 40 minutes after kick-off to get everyone in.) And the police didn't do what they had done the previous year, which was to organise a rough queue to filter people towards the turnstiles, and turn away people who had no tickets.

The police refused to request a delay to the kick-off, blaming the fans for arriving late. This caused some agitation and a crush began to develop outside the turnstiles. When this crush began, because of this reactive strategy, the police who were there were on the wrong side of the crowd to do anything about it. Things began to get quite hairy. Also, because there were so many people still outside, the police outside imagined the stands were virtually empty. They had no idea the fans who had already gained access were packing the two central pens dangerously already.

Because of this, a policeman radioed for permission to open the (or an) exit gate, and was given permission. Not knowing about the developing crush in the central pens, he opened the gate. The gate happened to be directly opposite the tunnel leading to these two pens. However, letting a number of people in quickly in this manner relieved the situation outside and that danger was averted.

The previous year, when the same thing happened or was threatening to happen, the police inside the stadium organised a temporary closure of the tunnel leading to the central pens so that the influx of fans was directed to the lateral pens which were still comparatively empty. There was some crushing and a few people were injured, but it wasn't a disaster.

The police who did this in 1988 all reported that they did it in response to orders from senior officers. However, in 1989 no such orders were given and the tunnel remained open. The tunnel sloped very steeply down towards the terrace, and it was impossible to see how full the terrace was from its entrance. It also led to the preferred viewing positions. The newly-admitted fans simply streamed into the tunnel. This is what caused the disaster.

The most shocking part of the cover-up was the systematic insistence of the senior officers that they had not given any orders to close the tunnel the previous year, and the removing of all statements that they had done so from the reports of the junior officers. The party line was that all had been absolutely fine the previous year, and they were just doing exactly the same thing this year, so nobody could have predicted what happened and nobody was to blame. Of course there were other lies, such as that the fans had broken down the gate, and that the fans were a rampaging drunken mob of ticketless gatecrashers, but it was the senior cops who told these lies, not the juniors.

There were many factors contributing to the disaster, but the most immediate one was the failure to close off the entrance to the tunnel when exit gate C was opened.

Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
The truth is out and no CIA involved.

Have I got this right?

Exactly right.

Rolfe.
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Old 18th September 2012, 04:43 AM   #149
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Unless of course CIA stands for Cops In Action.

ETA: Thanks for the synopsis Rolfe.
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Old 18th September 2012, 05:38 AM   #150
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Try this graphic which shows what happened. What was needed was close monitoring of the situation in the central sections of the stand (pens 3 and 4) and the build up of fans outside, trying desperately to get through inadequate turnstiles which operated too slowly.

The officer in charge of this co-ordination, Duckenfield, had never handled the situation before, having been appointed only three weeks previously, replacing someone else, a guy called Mole, who understood the delicate balance which involved shutting pens 3 and 4 at the right time, and blocking access to the dangerous, steeply sloping tunnel leading to those pens at the same time diverting fans to the side pens, which remained safe and relatively empty throughout on the day itself.
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Old 18th September 2012, 06:12 AM   #151
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There was something peculiar about Mole being taken off the job though, which was never clearly explained.

And afterwards, Mole was absolutely adamant that he hadn't done any of the things he demonstrably did do in 1988, so as to shore up the contention that Duckenfield couldn't possibly have known these things needed to be done.

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Old 18th September 2012, 06:25 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There was something peculiar about Mole being taken off the job though, which was never clearly explained.

And afterwards, Mole was absolutely adamant that he hadn't done any of the things he demonstrably did do in 1988, so as to shore up the contention that Duckenfield couldn't possibly have known these things needed to be done.

Rolfe.
Well the latter could be simply one senior officer covering for another but, yes, the former is odd. As the report states:
Quote:
The SYP decision to replace the experienced match commander, Chief
Superintendent Brian Mole, and appoint Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield who had minimal experience of policing at Hillsborough, just weeks before an FA Cup semi-final, has been previously criticised. None of the documents disclosed to the Panel indicated the rationale behind this decision.
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Old 18th September 2012, 06:28 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There was something peculiar about Mole being taken off the job though, which was never clearly explained.

And afterwards, Mole was absolutely adamant that he hadn't done any of the things he demonstrably did do in 1988, so as to shore up the contention that Duckenfield couldn't possibly have known these things needed to be done.

Rolfe.
There is a footnote in the report somewhere (in the intro I think) referencing a book dealing with Mole's substitution by Duckenfield, which I see as a key factor.

The filling of pens 3 and 4 and relieving of pressure outside the turnstiles were two dynamic processes, like filling a bath with hot and cold water, requiring judgment and experience. It would seem, as I think the report suggests, Duckenfield had not been briefed so as to understand this delicate balance properly. It's the sort of thing where the new guy should probably have watched the old guy at work at a couple of games before he tried it himself.
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Old 18th September 2012, 06:47 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There was something peculiar about Mole being taken off the job though, which was never clearly explained.
My understanding is that Mole had personal, family business that he had to take care of. I don't have a link, this was told to me in the '90s by my cousin who lives in Leeds.
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Old 18th September 2012, 07:08 AM   #155
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He came in when he heard on the radio that there was a crisis, so he can't have been far away. If it was something as unremarkable as that, I'm surprised there is such an appearance of secrecy.

Either he didn't brief Duckenfield, or he did and Duckenfield wasn't listening. There was nothing in writing to document the need for pro-active crowd management at that end of the ground.

Failing the much-needed improvements in the architecture, they should have given Liverpool the Spion Cop end (to reduce the crowd at the Leppings Lane turnstiles to more manageable proportions), policed the crowd on the way in by enforcing some sort of queue and turning away ticketless fans, and stood ready to direct fans away from the mouth of the tunnel when it looked as if the two central pens were becoming full. They should also have been willing to delay the kick-off if there were still long queues at the turnstiles.

It's not rocket science. But absolutely none of that got through to anyone.

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Old 18th September 2012, 07:13 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
He came in when he heard on the radio that there was a crisis, so he can't have been far away. If it was something as unremarkable as that, I'm surprised there is such an appearance of secrecy.

Either he didn't brief Duckenfield, or he did and Duckenfield wasn't listening. There was nothing in writing to document the need for pro-active crowd management at that end of the ground.

Failing the much-needed improvements in the architecture, they should have given Liverpool the Spion Cop end (to reduce the crowd at the Leppings Lane turnstiles to more manageable proportions), policed the crowd on the way in by enforcing some sort of queue and turning away ticketless fans, and stood ready to direct fans away from the mouth of the tunnel when it looked as if the two central pens were becoming full. They should also have been willing to delay the kick-off if there were still long queues at the turnstiles.

It's not rocket science. But absolutely none of that got through to anyone.

Rolfe.
Maybe not rocket science Rolfe, but perhaps more to it than we might like to think. I can imagine crowd control and safety, especially in the bad old days, was no a simple matter.
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Old 18th September 2012, 11:05 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And these would be senior officers too, so plenty of cost savings.
If you think a significant number of senior police officers will get chopped as a result of the cuts then you are very naive indeed.
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Old 18th September 2012, 11:23 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Letting that pass for a moment, bear in mind that this wasn't initially about corruption but about incompetence. I hate to break it to you, but the level of sheer dumb stupidity in the British police is well above background noise level.

The million-dollar-question is, what will the police do to prevent their stupidity and incompetence from being exposed?

Rolfe.
Yes Rolfe. The sheer dumb stupidity that ensured the largest public order event in. the. world. passed without so much as a hiccup.

There are 140,000 police officers supported by tens of thousands of civil staff providing a 24/7/365 service to over 60 million people under levels of scrutiny unheard of in any other public service, let alone a private company.

And yet, despite that level of scrutiny, despite the fact that the police deal with both the most vulnerable and the most reprehensible in society, the number of incidents involving "sheer dumb stupidity" are very small.

The police rarely make the news unless its bad news. Maybe you are counting the hits and ignoring the misses?
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Old 18th September 2012, 11:27 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The police both beat false confessions out of the Guildford Four <snip>
Really?
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Old 18th September 2012, 11:31 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
Really?
Quote:
After their arrest, all four defendants confessed to the bombing. These statements were later retracted, but nonetheless formed the basis of the case against them. They would later be alleged to be the result of coercion by the police, ranging from intimidation to torture—including threats against family members—as well as the effects of drug withdrawal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildfo...Guildford_Four
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