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Tags Liverpool incidents , police misconduct charges , UK incidents

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Old 26th September 2012, 03:19 PM   #321
Professor Yaffle
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Originally Posted by Antony View Post
Tobin was caught because he attacked 2 teenagers in his own flat in the presence of his own son
Not quite, in the case of the murders. He became a suspect in the Angelika Kluk murder (missing person when he was first a suspect) because he was the last person to be seen with her and then they found he was a sex offender (the case you mention) living under an assumed name and that he'd buggered off to London. And obviously he was caught for the other two cases when they decided to search (and take forensic evidence from) his house in Bathgate in connection with Vicky Hamilton and dig up the garden of his house in Portsmouth.
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Old 26th September 2012, 04:56 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I sometimes think, we behave as if we live in an Inspector Alleyn novel, or maybe Rebus or Morse. The doughty detective always gets there in the end. The villain he fingers in the last chapter is the guy who did it. He thinks his way through the clues and makes the right deductions, and the case is solved.

Maybe we really live in the world of the Five Find-outers.

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This is my favourite post ever.
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Old 26th September 2012, 05:54 PM   #323
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To those posters asking for an example of the police solving a whodunnit, rather than a run of the mill - handed to them on a plate type case, I would submit the Colin Pitchfork case. I'm rather surprised the police officer posting here didn't mention it - the first case anywhere in the world to have been solved by DNA evidence.
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Old 27th September 2012, 01:14 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
To those posters asking for an example of the police solving a whodunnit, rather than a run of the mill - handed to them on a plate type case, I would submit the Colin Pitchfork case. I'm rather surprised the police officer posting here didn't mention it - the first case anywhere in the world to have been solved by DNA evidence.
********. Because that is another case that was solved in spite rather than because of the police.

If the police had been willing to go ahead with the prosecution of Richard Buckland for the one killing he'd confessed to and left the other one on file...

And what broke the case wasn't DNA evidence per se but because the man who'd given a DNA (blood, specifically) sample in Pitchfork's name confessed to his friends and they went to the police.

Read "The Blooding" by Joseph Wambaugh for the detailed definitive account of the case.
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Old 27th September 2012, 03:41 AM   #325
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And back to the Hillsborough disaster, what do we think of the repulsive Kelvn Mackenzie getting his odious solicitor to demand a completely unwarranted apology from the SYP? Personally, I find it hard to make my mind up.
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Old 27th September 2012, 06:46 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
And back to the Hillsborough disaster, what do we think of the repulsive Kelvn Mackenzie getting his odious solicitor to demand a completely unwarranted apology from the SYP? Personally, I find it hard to make my mind up.
As I said upthread, I don't think any apology to Kelvin is appropriate. The information he was passed was a lie but because it aligned perfectly with the message he wanted to send he published it against the advice of the reporter (who wanted a more nuanced piece) and without verifying the information form primary sources (as other newspapers did).
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Old 27th September 2012, 09:05 AM   #327
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A who done it is where the police have no idea who did it. Such crimes are solved all the time, big and small from DNA hits with housebreakings to a search of CCTV after an assault and identification of the accused, to door to door enquiries and witnesses who can identify the accused being traced.

To claim that the Yorkshire Ripper case was solved only by him being stopped in his car, or Peter Tobin because of an assault is nonsense.
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Old 27th September 2012, 09:59 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A who done it is where the police have no idea who did it. Such crimes are solved all the time, big and small from DNA hits with housebreakings to a search of CCTV after an assault and identification of the accused, to door to door enquiries and witnesses who can identify the accused being traced.

To claim that the Yorkshire Ripper case was solved only by him being stopped in his car, or Peter Tobin because of an assault is nonsense.
Wait a cotton-picking minute. According to the dramatised version and my admittedly vague recollection of the contemporaneos reports, the lead investigator in the Yorkshire (hmm Yorkshire again) Ripper case was obsessed with that stupid recording he was sent by a hoaxer and didn't have the brains to work out the supposedly inside dope it contained was all in the public domain. Plus, the cops had Sutcliffe in their files many times but due to the inadequacy of their information retrieval they could not see him among all the other data. They had no clue who they were looking for and just got lucky when a copper doing some basic policing solved the case for them.
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Old 27th September 2012, 10:52 AM   #329
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This is why I do not think any example will get past Antony's idea of the police solving a crime.
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Old 27th September 2012, 12:17 PM   #330
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And let us not forget that more than once, Sutcliffe was actually interviewed by junior members of the investigation team who recommended that a closer look be paid to him and this was ignored.
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Old 27th September 2012, 12:24 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This is why I do not think any example will get past Antony's idea of the police solving a crime.
You could try Jeremy Bamber maybe.
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Old 27th September 2012, 01:44 PM   #332
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Fact is the final stopping and identifying of Peter Sutcliffe did not prove the murder of 13 women and attacks on the others. Police investigative work provided that evidence. That Dennis Nilson was finally identifying by his drain being blocked was not the evidence that convicted him of 6 murders.

I do not see why a member of the public providing an identification or any other evidence that leads to a prosecution means that the police did not solve the case. The police do not work in isolation from everyone else.
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Old 27th September 2012, 01:46 PM   #333
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Old 27th September 2012, 02:18 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Fact is the final stopping and identifying of Peter Sutcliffe did not prove the murder of 13 women and attacks on the others. Police investigative work provided that evidence. That Dennis Nilson was finally identifying by his drain being blocked was not the evidence that convicted him of 6 murders.

I do not see why a member of the public providing an identification or any other evidence that leads to a prosecution means that the police did not solve the case. The police do not work in isolation from everyone else.
Do you remember what they had on Sutcliffe? This is all pre DNA isn't it? So they probably had his work records showing he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, blood type that kind of stuff. Plus he had a hammer in the boot and didn't he confess? He was willing to plead to manslaughter I think but the cruel and merciless crown went all out for murder. Let's remember he bumped off 13 or 14 before they got him, which is a pretty good innings and reflects very badly on the cops imho.
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Old 27th September 2012, 03:06 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
To claim that the Yorkshire Ripper case was solved only by him being stopped in his car, or Peter Tobin because of an assault is nonsense.
A truly mystifying assertion.

Just as mystifying is when someone quotes a news story, presumably to support his view that the police and courts do their job properly, and then is unable to state what evidence was used for the court to reach their decision.
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Old 27th September 2012, 03:36 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Fact is the final stopping and identifying of Peter Sutcliffe did not prove the murder of 13 women and attacks on the others. Police investigative work provided that evidence. That Dennis Nilson was finally identifying by his drain being blocked was not the evidence that convicted him of 6 murders.
This is all true, but it misses the point I've been making. I'm not denigrating the police work in these cases, in which they have acted honestly and professionally.
Quote:
I do not see why a member of the public providing an identification or any other evidence that leads to a prosecution means that the police did not solve the case. The police do not work in isolation from everyone else.
Well, of course they did solve the case, having had their suspect presented to them by circumstances. They simply failed to solve the whodunnit.

The reason this is important is that in the miscarriage of justice cases, it was the police who settled on their supposed culprit(s), in each case for what can be seen to be arbitrary reasons. When they have to rely on forensics to identify the culprit, they always get it wrong - and I've yet to see anything to suggest that "always" is too strong a word.
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Old 27th September 2012, 03:40 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
You could try Jeremy Bamber maybe.
I just looked at the Wikipedia article on the Jeremy Bamber case. If it's accurate, then this looks like another miscarriage of justice - police and prosecution's suspicions treated as fact, and the burden of proof placed on the defendant. And yet another when the person reporting the crime ends up being accused of it.
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Old 27th September 2012, 03:44 PM   #338
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They say it's better to be lucky than rich or beautiful, but nobody has yet produced a case where the culprit wasn't identified by a huge stroke of luck, even accepting that the police work done after than was exemplary.

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Old 27th September 2012, 03:54 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Antony View Post
I just looked at the Wikipedia article on the Jeremy Bamber case. If it's accurate, then this looks like another miscarriage of justice - police and prosecution's suspicions treated as fact, and the burden of proof placed on the defendant. And yet another when the person reporting the crime ends up being accused of it.

Crikey, I don't think I even want to go there. I think I'm getting this case mixed up with another, similar, more recent one, which I believe was a more credible conviction. I agree, if what is on the wiki page is correct, I'd be very concerned.

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Old 28th September 2012, 12:56 AM   #340
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I'm not sure where we're going with this "Police don't solve crimes without luck and/or co-operation". I'm not sure how the Police could possibly solve a crime where there is a paucity of evidence at the scene without either luck or help.

[Anecdote]Our neighbours were broken into a few years ago. The Police arrived on the scene, dusted for prints, found some and arrested the culprit within hours (and recovered the stolen goods)[/Anecdote]

I think this is an example of routine police work leading to the arrest of the culprit. Without the luck (or stupidity) of the burglar leaving his fingerprints there's no way that the Police could have solved that burglary unless they had been given a lead by a member of the public.
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Old 28th September 2012, 02:25 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Antony View Post
A truly mystifying assertion.

Just as mystifying is when someone quotes a news story, presumably to support his view that the police and courts do their job properly, and then is unable to state what evidence was used for the court to reach their decision.
So we need to get back to what you consider a who done it case. Previously you said by use of forensics, so how about this case

http://www.spsa.police.uk/news/man_f...er_moira_jones

"Moira's body was found in Queen's Park in the south side of Glasgow last May, the discovery of which sparked a massive murder inquiry. Queen's Park was cordoned off to allow a thorough forensic search and re-opened more than two weeks later on 12 June. Police spoke to more than 1,200 people and took DNA samples from 250 as part of their investigation.

Forensic evidence played a significant role in the case with a number of disciplines from SPSA Forensic Services Glasgow, including scene examination, biology, DNA and fingerprint recovery and comparison supporting Strathclyde Police in their investigation.

Forensic material gathered in the park linked Harcar to the crime and DNA taken from the flat he was staying in matched DNA found at the murder scene.

The back of a mobile phone was discovered in the park. Tests on it revealed DNA that matched Ms Jones' profile.

When Harcar was arrested he was wearing a leather jacket and had on his possession a mobile phone with the back missing. The leather jacket was later found to contain traces of Moira's blood."

Yes it does not have full detail as is the case with using reports of the other cases I have quoted, but no one has access to full court proceedings. I cannot remember every minute detail of every case I have seen go through court.

My argument is that all the cases I have presented so far are who done its where there is no dispute over the conviction. Or are you going to say Sutcliffe, Nilsen etc didn't do it?
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Old 28th September 2012, 02:34 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
They say it's better to be lucky than rich or beautiful, but nobody has yet produced a case where the culprit wasn't identified by a huge stroke of luck, even accepting that the police work done after than was exemplary.

Rolfe.
The police acknowledge that often they are looking for a break through, another piece of information to progress an enquiry. Think of all the appeals for information you have seen (and in your case ignored). Think of the time and money invested in Crime Stoppers. The hours spent plodding the streets, door to door and interviewing witnesses, often repeatedly. Here is an example of one where there has been no break through, or piece of luck as you call it despite thousands of hours of work to get that break through, Alistair Wilson, the Nairn banker shot on his door step

http://www.northern.police.uk/News-a...releases-.html

So the police deserve credit for working to get those break throughs, or luck as you prefer to call it.
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Old 28th September 2012, 02:42 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not sure where we're going with this "Police don't solve crimes without luck and/or co-operation". I'm not sure how the Police could possibly solve a crime where there is a paucity of evidence at the scene without either luck or help.

[Anecdote]Our neighbours were broken into a few years ago. The Police arrived on the scene, dusted for prints, found some and arrested the culprit within hours (and recovered the stolen goods)[/Anecdote]

I think this is an example of routine police work leading to the arrest of the culprit. Without the luck (or stupidity) of the burglar leaving his fingerprints there's no way that the Police could have solved that burglary unless they had been given a lead by a member of the public.
Exactly, a bog standard who done it, solved. In that case here is another

I came back to my flat to see two guys climbing out of a neighbours with a duvet and pillow case that contained a TV and VCR. I tried to follow them and ran to the nearby police office and reported what I had seen. I was taken into a room and presented with a book of photos. I flicked through it and there, two photos on the same page of the two I had seen. The police put out a radio message of the guys names and within minutes both had been arrested and the TV and VCR recovered. (They were already searching the area as someone else had phoned to report three males had broken into the flat. I think the third male was me, trying to follow the other two!)

I as a member of the public I could not have solved that crime, it was the police who did it and did so because I came forward and gave them the break through they needed. They had some information already, but it was incomplete and inaccurate. I must have been their lucky day!

Of course, there will now be all sorts of reason why such cases do not count
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Old 28th September 2012, 04:34 AM   #344
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What kind of punishments can we expect to be meted out to police who cooked the books in order to blame the dead victims of their incompetence?
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Old 28th September 2012, 04:55 AM   #345
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Hopefully, very severe ones. Those still in the job should be sacked as a minimum.
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Old 28th September 2012, 05:16 AM   #346
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23 years on. How many of the senior officers are likely still to be in the job, I wonder?

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Old 28th September 2012, 06:26 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
23 years on. How many of the senior officers are likely still to be in the job, I wonder?

Rolfe.
Are you suggesting it's akin to getting all worked up about the Nazis 60 years after the war when most of them are either dead or too senile to remember anything?
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Old 28th September 2012, 07:40 AM   #348
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There does need to be a way to be able to discipline people who have retired, not just the police, but any job.

I would suggest now, that a civil deformation of character suit maybe the next best action.
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Old 28th September 2012, 07:56 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Do you remember what they had on Sutcliffe? This is all pre DNA isn't it? So they probably had his work records showing he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, blood type that kind of stuff. Plus he had a hammer in the boot and didn't he confess? He was willing to plead to manslaughter I think but the cruel and merciless crown went all out for murder. Let's remember he bumped off 13 or 14 before they got him, which is a pretty good innings and reflects very badly on the cops imho.
Actually the Crown were willing to accept the guilty pleas to 13 counts of manslaughter (by reason of diminished responsibility) but the judge rejected this deal.
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Old 28th September 2012, 08:01 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Are you suggesting it's akin to getting all worked up about the Nazis 60 years after the war when most of them are either dead or too senile to remember anything?
I read it as Rolfe suggesting that the majority have retired so that they cannot be dismissed from the service. I suppose there are other measures:

Could the officers be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice, wasting police time or perjury ?

Is there precedent for retro-actively dismissing them from the service ? Could the retired officers have their pensions withdrawn or reduced ?

Could the victims' families (or organisations representing them) sue for slander, libel or defamation of character ?
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Old 28th September 2012, 08:18 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There does need to be a way to be able to discipline people who have retired, not just the police, but any job.

I would suggest now, that a civil deformation of character suit maybe the next best action.
I don't know it's something to get bent out of shape about...
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Old 28th September 2012, 08:34 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I don't know it's something to get bent out of shape about...
I disagree. This is like bankers who keep mis-selling and get away with it. There needs to be action to punish them properly and not allow either to get way with their acts just down to passage of time or ineffective existing laws.
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Old 28th September 2012, 08:39 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I disagree. This is like bankers who keep mis-selling and get away with it. There needs to be action to punish them properly and not allow either to get way with their acts just down to passage of time or ineffective existing laws.
Whoosh!
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Old 28th September 2012, 08:53 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I don't know it's something to get bent out of shape about...
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Old 28th September 2012, 09:37 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Are you suggesting it's akin to getting all worked up about the Nazis 60 years after the war when most of them are either dead or too senile to remember anything?

No. I'm suggesting they won. They got to see out their careers and retire without nemesis coming anywhere near them.

Rolfe.
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Old 29th September 2012, 01:39 AM   #356
Antony
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So we need to get back to what you consider a who done it case. Previously you said by use of forensics, so how about this case

http://www.spsa.police.uk/news/man_f...er_moira_jones

...
This case certainly seems to have more substance than the other 2 you raised, but it should be noted that it comes from a police website, so cannot be regarded as impartial.
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Yes it does not have full detail as is the case with using reports of the other cases I have quoted, but no one has access to full court proceedings.

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I cannot remember every minute detail of every case I have seen go through court.
That's pretty lame. You are asked to substantiate the evidence used to conclude cases you raised, and your answer is "I can't remember".
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My argument is that all the cases I have presented so far are who done its where there is no dispute over the conviction.
The Bovill-Conway murder is disputed - by the accused Robert Bovill and his aunt Elizabeth Conway. This was in the same report I quoted, which did not provide adequate evidence for the conviction.
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Or are you going to say Sutcliffe, Nilsen etc didn't do it?
Of course not. If you had read my posts properly, you wouldn't need to ask this question. I have several time made it clear that the police in these cases deserve full credit for their work.

You seem less keen on answering questions than asking them. Here's one for you (again): do you agree with the principle "justice must be seen to be done"?
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Old 29th September 2012, 02:10 AM   #357
The Don
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Originally Posted by Antony View Post
You seem less keen on answering questions than asking them. Here's one for you (again): do you agree with the principle "justice must be seen to be done"?
Which raises the question of whether it is more important that the law is followed to the letter or that justice is done. In some cases a "bad-un" gets away with it because they cannot be charged or penalised, in other cases a "good person" is convicted even though it may be unjust.

In the case of the SYC, there may not be a mechanism in place to punish officers who were part of the cover up and who have since entered a comfortable retirement. It is "unjust" that they get away without any punishment, yet to enact retrospective legislation to allow them to be punished may also be "unjust" to a degree.
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Old 29th September 2012, 03:47 AM   #358
anglolawyer
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I read it as Rolfe suggesting that the majority have retired so that they cannot be dismissed from the service. I suppose there are other measures:

Could the officers be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice, wasting police time or perjury ?

Is there precedent for retro-actively dismissing them from the service ? Could the retired officers have their pensions withdrawn or reduced ?

Could the victims' families (or organisations representing them) sue for slander, libel or defamation of character ?
There is no statute of limitations for the prosecution of crimes in England and Wales so it is still possible to proceed. Conspiring to pervert the course of justice and manslaughter would the most serious of the possible charges. Perjury can only be committed if giving evidence in court or in other special cases. I do not know for what purpose nor in what proceedings (if any) the altered statements were made so I don't know whether perjury comes into play.

I doubt whether it is open to any longer to anyone to sue for defamation. First because the time limit is only one year (not sure what it was in 1989 but whatever it was it has expired) second because you cannot defame the dead and third because you cannot defame a class (liverpool fans) unless it is possible to identify particular individuals within that class as being the subject of the defamation.
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Old 29th September 2012, 09:05 AM   #359
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Antony View Post
This case certainly seems to have more substance than the other 2 you raised, but it should be noted that it comes from a police website, so cannot be regarded as impartial.





That's pretty lame. You are asked to substantiate the evidence used to conclude cases you raised, and your answer is "I can't remember".


The Bovill-Conway murder is disputed - by the accused Robert Bovill and his aunt Elizabeth Conway. This was in the same report I quoted, which did not provide adequate evidence for the conviction.


Of course not. If you had read my posts properly, you wouldn't need to ask this question. I have several time made it clear that the police in these cases deserve full credit for their work.

You seem less keen on answering questions than asking them. Here's one for you (again): do you agree with the principle "justice must be seen to be done"?
The thing you cannot get away from is that I have quoted to you a whole host of who done it cases. You then find reasons not connected to the who done it aspect as to why those cases do not count.

I am not going to chase around finding any more cases for you since you ignore the who done it aspect of the cases to dismiss them as not a who done it for any old reason you can think of. Fact is the Boville case was a who done it and that the accused disputes the verdict is good enough for you to doubt the verdict? Your mistrust is shining through to such an extent I don't rate your judgement at all any more.

No there are not full case transcripts available. That is why all courts have public galleries where people can freely watch cases and it is very rare for any case to be held in private.

As for the Moira Jones case

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/7989422.stm

http://www.heraldscotland.com/moira-...uilty-1.907117

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...es-murder.html

All reputable sources all corroborating the supposed biased police source.

Justice has to be seen to be done, and done.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 11:02 AM   #360
Antony
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The thing you cannot get away from is that I have quoted to you a whole host of who done it cases.
You haven't quoted a "host" of cases. All you have is half-a-dozen well-known ones, plus a couple where you are unable to say what the crucial evidence was. Against that there really is a host of cases where the police have pursued the wrong person through incompetence, or dishonesty, or both.
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Fact is the Boville case was a who done it and that the accused disputes the verdict is good enough for you to doubt the verdict?
Wrong again. What makes me doubt the verdict is that the reported evidence is inadequate for a guilty verdict and you, who raised this case as an example, are unable to state what the real evidence was.

Of course, the accused disputing the verdict isn't enough on its own to doubt the verdict, but it's enough that you can't claim the case as one that's "undisputed".
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Your mistrust is shining through to such an extent I don't rate your judgement at all any more.
It's known as "scepticism". You call yourself "Audiophile/biker/sceptic" in your tagline, yet you want me to accept that someone is guilty based on unspecified evidence.
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No there are not full case transcripts available. That is why all courts have public galleries where people can freely watch cases and it is very rare for any case to be held in private.
If that's the case then it should be possible for the actual evidence in these cases to be made public. Since it apparently hasn't, then it may as well have been secret evidence we are dealing with.

Look, you could resolve this argument simply by stating what the evidence was, if it really is as transparent as you assert. Instead, you first make excuses about the transcripts, and then claim the transcripts aren't necessary. You can't have it both ways.
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All reputable sources all corroborating the supposed biased police source.
So it would have been better to quote them in the first place, rather than laying yourself open by referring to the police website.
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Justice has to be seen to be done, and done.
You make it sound that when justice hasn't been seen to be done, you'll settle for it merely being done. You are missing the point of the quote.
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