Today's Mass Shooting - Page 9

Kestrel · 18th May 2018, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Latest report I read said shotgun and pistol. Earlier reports said an additional AR-15.

Some confusion reigns.

I don't know how you kill 10 and wound another bunch without something that has a high capacity magazine or a fast reload capability, but maybe the kid was just very, very good at it. I guess we'll find out sooner or later.

Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12^WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons.

MikeG · 18th May 2018, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

It's unbelievable. Maybe someone should start one,........

I did. Here.

LTC8K6 · 18th May 2018, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Well they're in big time trouble then. Active cell phone blockers are illegal at the federal level. Passive ones are just building really thick walls.

https://www.fcc.gov/general/jamming-...nt-against-law

The school district and city may as well declare bankruptcy now from the lawsuits if it delayed help getting in.

I read somewhere that the school system basically has it's own police force?

William Parcher · 18th May 2018, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12^WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons.

Many reports called it a sawed off shotgun. But a shotgun like the Saiga isn't sawn off - it just has a very short barrel. Maybe you call that an assault style shotgun.

Meadmaker · 18th May 2018, 01:53 PM

Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree.

William Parcher · 18th May 2018, 01:56 PM

I read something about him loving Russia. Is that a Nazi thing?

William Parcher · 18th May 2018, 02:00 PM

Daily Mail is saying that one of the ten dead is a teacher. Also saying that two other students have been detained, not just one other.

William Parcher · 18th May 2018, 02:09 PM

What is the driving force of kids like this and Nikolas Cruz? Is it really white supremacy or Nazism, or is it really just a desire to kill a bunch of people and then they seek to self-label themselves as something associated with mass killing?

If you simply want to slaughter on a mass scale you might link up with white power or Nazis just because you think you will find others there who also desire to kill many at once.

Trebuchet · 18th May 2018, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I read something about him loving Russia. Is that a Nazi thing?

For many current American Nazi-lovers, yes.

Captain_Swoop · 18th May 2018, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Well they're in big time trouble then. Active cell phone blockers are illegal at the federal level. Passive ones are just building really thick walls.

https://www.fcc.gov/general/jamming-...nt-against-law

The school district and city may as well declare bankruptcy now from the lawsuits if it delayed help getting in.

Cell phone blockers don't have to be active.

Captain_Swoop · 18th May 2018, 02:24 PM

Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Nazi, Killed 10, Taken Alive

Nick Cruz, Nazi, Killed 17, Taken Alive

Travis Reinking, Nazi, Killed 4, Taken Alive

Stephon Clark, Black, On Cell phone at home, Shot 20x

William Parcher · 18th May 2018, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

For many current American Nazi-lovers, yes.

This kid was attracted to Nazism and Communism. Why not Fascism? Why don't the American Nazis go for Fascism?

Students are saying that he wore a black trench coat and black boots to school every day.

William Parcher · 18th May 2018, 04:07 PM

Nick Cruz was attracted to white supremacy and then he shot up a bunch of white schoolkids. WTF?

This kid is attracted to Nazis and Communists. I guess we'll see who he shot up.

I'm trying to seek associative patterns.

Ranb · 18th May 2018, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12^WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons.

They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Many reports called it a sawed off shotgun. But a shotgun like the Saiga isn't sawn off - it just has a very short barrel. Maybe you call that an assault style shotgun.

As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".

Checkmite · 18th May 2018, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree.

He had a Facebook page as well which was taken down very soon after the event, as usual. And as usual, Facebook has been rapidly deleting fake Facebook pages that continue to emerge dressing him as a Clinton supporter and "antifa" member.

William Parcher · 18th May 2018, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ranb

They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.

As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".

A student who saw him shooting said he pumped it between shots so it seems to be a pump action rather than semi-auto. Maybe it really is sawed off too.

A hospital doctor said he was using buckshot at close range and some of the injured are really messed up.

This isn't typical weaponry for mass school shooters. It's not been reported if he used the revolver at all. Maybe he could have killed many more. He said he was only shooting people he didn't like.

Recent reports saying two teachers are dead, not just one.

mgidm86 · 18th May 2018, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Nazi, Killed 10, Taken Alive

Nick Cruz, Nazi, Killed 17, Taken Alive

Travis Reinking, Nazi, Killed 4, Taken Alive

Stephon Clark, Black, On Cell phone at home, Shot 20x

Daniel Shaver, unarmed white guy, shot and killed in a hotel hallway while begging the cop for his life. Cop must have thought he was black.

Parsman · 19th May 2018, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Daniel Shaver, unarmed white guy, shot and killed in a hotel hallway while begging the cop for his life. Cop must have thought he was black.

Not often I agree with mgidm86 but he is right this time. Although it happens proportionately more to black people the problem with police in the USA isn't solely a racial one, it is a cops vs society one and if a cop feels even mildly distressed by a civilians actions whatever their colour you have the chance of a fatal outcome.

As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again.

3point14 · 19th May 2018, 12:48 AM

Do these sort of things ever happen at the sort of schools that senators and congressmen sent their own kids to?

Darat · 19th May 2018, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ranb

They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.

As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".

Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?

Darat · 19th May 2018, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by Parsman

Not often I agree with mgidm86 but he is right this time. Although it happens proportionately more to black people the problem with police in the USA isn't solely a racial one, it is a cops vs society one and if a cop feels even mildly distressed by a civilians actions whatever their colour you have the chance of a fatal outcome.

As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again.

Sadly for some it does seem to matter, everything has to be ascribed as either "for" or "against" their "side" so they can use the event as a weapon to win the fight.

cullennz · 19th May 2018, 01:28 AM

Another mass shooting in the US, means another 10 pages on these threads, means another nothing changes

jimbob · 19th May 2018, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Another mass shooting in the US, means another 10 pages on these threads, means another nothing changes

And the Onion wheels out the most insightful analysis - yet again.

Captain_Swoop · 19th May 2018, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?

Yes, everything to do with it.
Gun worship.

cullennz · 19th May 2018, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

And the Onion wheels out the most insightful analysis - yet again.

No skin off my nose

I don't have to live in the mass shootsville of the world

Darat · 19th May 2018, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Yes, everything to do with it.
Gun worship.

Hobbyists also tend to be all other the most irrelevant - to the rest of us - details.

William Parcher · 19th May 2018, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Parsman

As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again.

Right now the media is full of authorities saying that he did not exhibit any signs of coming disaster. The red flags were not flying. They are comparing him to Cruz who did show signs including talk of being a school shooter.

The FBI and local authorities blew it with Cruz, but that can't be said with this kid. The point is that it's not clear until after the event but you can't put that to represent a clarity before the event.

Nessie · 19th May 2018, 06:24 AM

Today's mass shooting is a copycat of numerous other mass shootings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University."

William Parcher · 19th May 2018, 06:35 AM

What mass shooting? Right now the whole world is all about Meghan's Royal Wedding.

a_unique_person · 19th May 2018, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Ranb

They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea.

Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun.

As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".

Out appears to have been sufficiently reliable in this case.

Nessie · 19th May 2018, 07:52 AM

More mass shootings = more desensitisation = more mass shootings = more copy cat = more mass shootings = more resistance by the pro gun lobby = more mass shootings.

There is nothing going on to suggest there were will be a fall in mass shootings and if anything, the situation now is likely to result in even more mass shootings.

William Parcher · 19th May 2018, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

= more copy cat =

If they copy this kid they will make sure not to give any indications that they are going to hurt anyone, have no criminal record or behavior problems, and make the school honor roll. Get your weapons by taking them from someone. Go retro with your guns like a 1960s mass shooter using a pump-action shotgun and a revolver. The world will be expecting semi-automatic with big capacity magazines - but no, not now. And see if you can do more than just ten.

mgidm86 · 19th May 2018, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Today's mass shooting is a copycat of numerous other mass shootings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University."

That seems ridiculously obvious but I guess we have the expert opinion now. Some of the shooters own words and actions made that obvious to me. What did the Parkland shooter say once - he wanted to be a professional school shooter? HellOOOOOO.....

Problem: this kid one-upped the last shooter by making bombs - pressure cookers and Molotovs I believe? One pressure cooker could kill as many students as he and his guns did. Now what?

What inspired that idea? The Boston Bombers, one of which was coincidentally featured on the cover of Rolling Stone Magazine like a gawdamn rock star.

The last kid used an AR, this kid decided to go with a shotgun and pistol under a trench coat. He planned it in advance and brought weapons he could conceal.

Today his picture is on the front page of every stupid media site in the country - I guarantee this inspires another one.

These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot.

ETA:
Again, I'd like to know how many of these kids are on prescription meds. Are these the same kids that used to hang themselves in their bedrooms but are now shooting up schools instead? These "nobodys" are somebody for a few days while they grace the covers of magazines, why not go out like that?

Cain · 19th May 2018, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

That seems ridiculously obvious but I guess we have the expert opinion now. Some of the shooters own words and actions made that obvious to me. What did the Parkland shooter say once - he wanted to be a professional school shooter? HellOOOOOO.....

Problem: this kid one-upped the last shooter by making bombs - pressure cookers and Molotovs I believe? One pressure cooker could kill as many students as he and his guns did. Now what?

What inspired that idea? The Boston Bombers, one of which was coincidentally featured on the cover of Rolling Stone Magazine like a gawdamn rock star.

The last kid used an AR, this kid decided to go with a shotgun and pistol under a trench coat. He planned it in advance and brought weapons he could conceal.

Today his picture is on the front page of every stupid media site in the country - I guarantee this inspires another one.

These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot.

ETA:
Again, I'd like to know how many of these kids are on prescription meds. Are these the same kids that used to hang themselves in their bedrooms but are now shooting up schools instead? These "nobodys" are somebody for a few days while they grace the covers of magazines, why not go out like that?

Of course there's a monkey-see, monkey-do effect, but easy access to guns is fertile ground to nurture violent fantasies.

Also, and this has been mentioned before, it's not easy to build a bomb. How many people were killed by these bombs? None. How many students in Columbine were murdered by bombs? None. The Parkland kid killed twice as many people as the Unabomber (and seven times as many as the Boston Bombers). Of course, does the right to keep and bear arms mean that companies should be allowed to manufacture explosive devices in order to -- you know -- keep the government in check. Explosives were far more important to the Iraqi insurgency than small-arms fire. Yeah, whatever.

Kestrel · 19th May 2018, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?

I made a comment that some shotguns look similar to assault weapons. If the shooter used one of those shotguns it might explain eyewitnesses saying he had an AR-15.

The Sandy Hook conspiracy theory grew out of that mistake. A Saiga 12 was found in the trunk of the shooter’s car that some misidentified as a Bushmaster assault rifle. This was presented as proof that officials were lying. The shooter could not have used a Bushmaster because it was still in the trunk. Leading the gullible down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

crescent · 19th May 2018, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot.

If kids want to use bombs instead of guns, then that's a good thing. Bombs are much harder to get right.

Guns make it easy, bombs make it hard.

a_unique_person · 19th May 2018, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kestrel

I made a comment that some shotguns look similar to assault weapons. If the shooter used one of those shotguns it might explain eyewitnesses saying he had an AR-15.

The Sandy Hook conspiracy theory grew out of that mistake. A Saiga 12 was found in the trunk of the shooter’s car that some misidentified as a Bushmaster assault rifle. This was presented as proof that officials were lying. The shooter could not have used a Bushmaster because it was still in the trunk. Leading the gullible down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

Functionally an assault gun is one that is optimised for shooting at a bunch people at relatively close range. A rapid fire shotgun is apparently just as good at that as a relatively short barrel semi auto rifle.

Ranb · 19th May 2018, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?

Nothing. But it has everything to do with the post I was replying to. Keep grinding that axe and you'll have to find something else to bitch about.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Yes, everything to do with it.
Gun worship.

You should stop worshiping the gun.

BBC has more details.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44186989

Quote:

The gun battle went on for about 15 minutes before Mr Pagourtzis gave himself up, abandoning a plan to take his own life, the New York Times reported.

Police now say that eight students and two teachers were killed, with 13 people wounded in the attack, including one of the school's policemen who is in critical condition.

Quote:

The affidavit also said Mr Pagourtzis was wearing a trench coat and had a Remington 870 shotgun and a .38 calibre pistol.

Nessie · 20th May 2018, 01:58 AM

Finland has also had mass school shootings and threats of shootings,

https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral....471-244X-12-91

"Two school shootings with altogether 18 victims took place in Finland in November 2007 and September 2008. Homicides and suicides are both associated with the copycat phenomenon. The aim of the present study was to characterize adolescent copycats who had threatened to carry out a school massacre"

ponderingturtle · 21st May 2018, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree.

Yea but as he focused on killing the girl he as stalking and she refused to go out with him I expect she will get all the blame. If she had just screwed his creepy racist ass this wouldn't have happened.

18th May 2018, 01:32 PM	#321
Kestrel Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,978	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Latest report I read said shotgun and pistol. Earlier reports said an additional AR-15. Some confusion reigns. I don't know how you kill 10 and wound another bunch without something that has a high capacity magazine or a fast reload capability, but maybe the kid was just very, very good at it. I guess we'll find out sooner or later. Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12^WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons.
	Last edited by Kestrel; 18th May 2018 at 01:34 PM.

18th May 2018, 01:35 PM	#322
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Originally Posted by Minoosh It's unbelievable. Maybe someone should start one,........ I did. Here.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

18th May 2018, 01:40 PM	#323
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 21,417	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Well they're in big time trouble then. Active cell phone blockers are illegal at the federal level. Passive ones are just building really thick walls. https://www.fcc.gov/general/jamming-...nt-against-law The school district and city may as well declare bankruptcy now from the lawsuits if it delayed help getting in. I read somewhere that the school system basically has it's own police force?
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

18th May 2018, 01:41 PM	#324
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	Originally Posted by Kestrel Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12^WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons. Many reports called it a sawed off shotgun. But a shotgun like the Saiga isn't sawn off - it just has a very short barrel. Maybe you call that an assault style shotgun.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th May 2018, 01:56 PM	#326
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	I read something about him loving Russia. Is that a Nazi thing?
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th May 2018, 01:53 PM	#325
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 19,681	Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree.

18th May 2018, 02:00 PM	#327
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	Daily Mail is saying that one of the ten dead is a teacher. Also saying that two other students have been detained, not just one other.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th May 2018, 02:09 PM	#328
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	What is the driving force of kids like this and Nikolas Cruz? Is it really white supremacy or Nazism, or is it really just a desire to kill a bunch of people and then they seek to self-label themselves as something associated with mass killing? If you simply want to slaughter on a mass scale you might link up with white power or Nazis just because you think you will find others there who also desire to kill many at once.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th May 2018, 02:14 PM	#329
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 23,944	Originally Posted by William Parcher I read something about him loving Russia. Is that a Nazi thing? For many current American Nazi-lovers, yes.
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18th May 2018, 02:22 PM	#330
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 22,847	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Well they're in big time trouble then. Active cell phone blockers are illegal at the federal level. Passive ones are just building really thick walls. https://www.fcc.gov/general/jamming-...nt-against-law The school district and city may as well declare bankruptcy now from the lawsuits if it delayed help getting in. Cell phone blockers don't have to be active.

18th May 2018, 02:24 PM	#331
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 22,847	Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Nazi, Killed 10, Taken Alive Nick Cruz, Nazi, Killed 17, Taken Alive Travis Reinking, Nazi, Killed 4, Taken Alive Stephon Clark, Black, On Cell phone at home, Shot 20x

18th May 2018, 04:01 PM	#332
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	Originally Posted by Trebuchet For many current American Nazi-lovers, yes. This kid was attracted to Nazism and Communism. Why not Fascism? Why don't the American Nazis go for Fascism? Students are saying that he wore a black trench coat and black boots to school every day.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th May 2018, 04:07 PM	#333
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	Nick Cruz was attracted to white supremacy and then he shot up a bunch of white schoolkids. WTF? This kid is attracted to Nazis and Communists. I guess we'll see who he shot up. I'm trying to seek associative patterns.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th May 2018, 08:22 PM	#334
Ranb Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 9,949	Originally Posted by Kestrel Combat shotguns like the Saiga-12^WP are easily to mistake for assault weapons. They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12 The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea. Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun. Originally Posted by William Parcher Many reports called it a sawed off shotgun. But a shotgun like the Saiga isn't sawn off - it just has a very short barrel. Maybe you call that an assault style shotgun. As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18".
	Last edited by Ranb; 18th May 2018 at 08:24 PM.

18th May 2018, 08:47 PM	#335
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 24,511	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Apparently a Neo-Nazi sort, plenty of racist images on his instagram, and he posted to the account during the killing spree. He had a Facebook page as well which was taken down very soon after the event, as usual. And as usual, Facebook has been rapidly deleting fake Facebook pages that continue to emerge dressing him as a Clinton supporter and "antifa" member.
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18th May 2018, 09:07 PM	#336
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	Originally Posted by Ranb They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12 The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea. Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun. As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18". A student who saw him shooting said he pumped it between shots so it seems to be a pump action rather than semi-auto. Maybe it really is sawed off too. A hospital doctor said he was using buckshot at close range and some of the injured are really messed up. This isn't typical weaponry for mass school shooters. It's not been reported if he used the revolver at all. Maybe he could have killed many more. He said he was only shooting people he didn't like. Recent reports saying two teachers are dead, not just one.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th May 2018, 11:29 PM	#337
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,937	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Dimitrios Pagourtzis, Nazi, Killed 10, Taken Alive Nick Cruz, Nazi, Killed 17, Taken Alive Travis Reinking, Nazi, Killed 4, Taken Alive Stephon Clark, Black, On Cell phone at home, Shot 20x Daniel Shaver, unarmed white guy, shot and killed in a hotel hallway while begging the cop for his life. Cop must have thought he was black.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,937	__________________ Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

19th May 2018, 12:18 AM	#338
Parsman Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bonnie Scotland Posts: 701	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Daniel Shaver, unarmed white guy, shot and killed in a hotel hallway while begging the cop for his life. Cop must have thought he was black. Not often I agree with mgidm86 but he is right this time. Although it happens proportionately more to black people the problem with police in the USA isn't solely a racial one, it is a cops vs society one and if a cop feels even mildly distressed by a civilians actions whatever their colour you have the chance of a fatal outcome. As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again.
	__________________ I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.

19th May 2018, 12:48 AM	#339
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 18,749	Do these sort of things ever happen at the sort of schools that senators and congressmen sent their own kids to?
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 18,749	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

19th May 2018, 01:20 AM	#340
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 88,539	Originally Posted by Ranb They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12 The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea. Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun. As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18". Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

19th May 2018, 01:22 AM	#341
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 88,539	Originally Posted by Parsman Not often I agree with mgidm86 but he is right this time. Although it happens proportionately more to black people the problem with police in the USA isn't solely a racial one, it is a cops vs society one and if a cop feels even mildly distressed by a civilians actions whatever their colour you have the chance of a fatal outcome. As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again. Sadly for some it does seem to matter, everything has to be ascribed as either "for" or "against" their "side" so they can use the event as a weapon to win the fight.
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19th May 2018, 01:28 AM	#342
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 17,526	Another mass shooting in the US, means another 10 pages on these threads, means another nothing changes
	__________________ I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

19th May 2018, 02:03 AM	#343
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 21,531	Originally Posted by cullennz Another mass shooting in the US, means another 10 pages on these threads, means another nothing changes And the Onion wheels out the most insightful analysis - yet again.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

19th May 2018, 02:15 AM	#344
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 22,847	Originally Posted by Darat Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student? Yes, everything to do with it. Gun worship.

19th May 2018, 02:23 AM	#345
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 17,526	Originally Posted by jimbob And the Onion wheels out the most insightful analysis - yet again. No skin off my nose I don't have to live in the mass shootsville of the world
	__________________ I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

19th May 2018, 02:33 AM	#346
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 88,539	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Yes, everything to do with it. Gun worship. Hobbyists also tend to be all other the most irrelevant - to the rest of us - details.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

19th May 2018, 06:11 AM	#347
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	Originally Posted by Parsman As to this shooter, does it matter if he was Nazi, Communist or Monster Raving Loony Party in his motivations? He clearly was someone who shouldn't be getting easy access to firearms yet here we are again. Right now the media is full of authorities saying that he did not exhibit any signs of coming disaster. The red flags were not flying. They are comparing him to Cruz who did show signs including talk of being a school shooter. The FBI and local authorities blew it with Cruz, but that can't be said with this kid. The point is that it's not clear until after the event but you can't put that to represent a clarity before the event.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

19th May 2018, 06:24 AM	#348
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 12,455	Today's mass shooting is a copycat of numerous other mass shootings. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141 "Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats. As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University."
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19th May 2018, 06:35 AM	#349
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	What mass shooting? Right now the whole world is all about Meghan's Royal Wedding.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

19th May 2018, 06:37 AM	#350
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 41,363	Originally Posted by Ranb They are built on a modified AK47 action and come in various barrel lengths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12 The Russian company that exports them to the USA was prohibited from doing so for political reasons after annexation of the Crimea. Personally I have a low opinion of the Saiga 12. I've yet to see one that made it through a single 20-30 round magazine without a malfunction. I watched several people compete with them at a matches; they're never a winner although this is more to do with the shooter than the gun. As far as I know the Saiga's imported to the USA have 18-23 inch barrels. I've seen a few that were legally chopped down to <18". Out appears to have been sufficiently reliable in this case.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

19th May 2018, 07:52 AM	#351
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 12,455	More mass shootings = more desensitisation = more mass shootings = more copy cat = more mass shootings = more resistance by the pro gun lobby = more mass shootings. There is nothing going on to suggest there were will be a fall in mass shootings and if anything, the situation now is likely to result in even more mass shootings.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

19th May 2018, 11:14 AM	#352
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,678	Originally Posted by Nessie = more copy cat = If they copy this kid they will make sure not to give any indications that they are going to hurt anyone, have no criminal record or behavior problems, and make the school honor roll. Get your weapons by taking them from someone. Go retro with your guns like a 1960s mass shooter using a pump-action shotgun and a revolver. The world will be expecting semi-automatic with big capacity magazines - but no, not now. And see if you can do more than just ten.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

19th May 2018, 01:56 PM	#353
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,937	Originally Posted by Nessie Today's mass shooting is a copycat of numerous other mass shootings. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141 "Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats. As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University." That seems ridiculously obvious but I guess we have the expert opinion now. Some of the shooters own words and actions made that obvious to me. What did the Parkland shooter say once - he wanted to be a professional school shooter? HellOOOOOO..... Problem: this kid one-upped the last shooter by making bombs - pressure cookers and Molotovs I believe? One pressure cooker could kill as many students as he and his guns did. Now what? What inspired that idea? The Boston Bombers, one of which was coincidentally featured on the cover of Rolling Stone Magazine like a gawdamn rock star. The last kid used an AR, this kid decided to go with a shotgun and pistol under a trench coat. He planned it in advance and brought weapons he could conceal. Today his picture is on the front page of every stupid media site in the country - I guarantee this inspires another one. These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot. ETA: Again, I'd like to know how many of these kids are on prescription meds. Are these the same kids that used to hang themselves in their bedrooms but are now shooting up schools instead? These "nobodys" are somebody for a few days while they grace the covers of magazines, why not go out like that?
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,937	__________________ Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures. Last edited by mgidm86; 19th May 2018 at 02:01 PM.

19th May 2018, 02:09 PM	#354
Cain Straussian July Co-Pither Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,214	Originally Posted by mgidm86 That seems ridiculously obvious but I guess we have the expert opinion now. Some of the shooters own words and actions made that obvious to me. What did the Parkland shooter say once - he wanted to be a professional school shooter? HellOOOOOO..... Problem: this kid one-upped the last shooter by making bombs - pressure cookers and Molotovs I believe? One pressure cooker could kill as many students as he and his guns did. Now what? What inspired that idea? The Boston Bombers, one of which was coincidentally featured on the cover of Rolling Stone Magazine like a gawdamn rock star. The last kid used an AR, this kid decided to go with a shotgun and pistol under a trench coat. He planned it in advance and brought weapons he could conceal. Today his picture is on the front page of every stupid media site in the country - I guarantee this inspires another one. These kids are starting to use bombs now. Guns may be a problem but it definitely is not THE problem with these kids, not by a long shot. ETA: Again, I'd like to know how many of these kids are on prescription meds. Are these the same kids that used to hang themselves in their bedrooms but are now shooting up schools instead? These "nobodys" are somebody for a few days while they grace the covers of magazines, why not go out like that? Of course there's a monkey-see, monkey-do effect, but easy access to guns is fertile ground to nurture violent fantasies. Also, and this has been mentioned before, it's not easy to build a bomb. How many people were killed by these bombs? None. How many students in Columbine were murdered by bombs? None. The Parkland kid killed twice as many people as the Unabomber (and seven times as many as the Boston Bombers). Of course, does the right to keep and bear arms mean that companies should be allowed to manufacture explosive devices in order to -- you know -- keep the government in check. Explosives were far more important to the Iraqi insurgency than small-arms fire. Yeah, whatever.
	__________________ April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

19th May 2018, 07:23 PM	#355
Kestrel Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,978	Originally Posted by Darat Has this anything to do with the terrible tragedy of students being killed by a fellow student? I made a comment that some shotguns look similar to assault weapons. If the shooter used one of those shotguns it might explain eyewitnesses saying he had an AR-15. The Sandy Hook conspiracy theory grew out of that mistake. A Saiga 12 was found in the trunk of the shooter’s car that some misidentified as a Bushmaster assault rifle. This was presented as proof that officials were lying. The shooter could not have used a Bushmaster because it was still in the trunk. Leading the gullible down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole.