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Old 19th September 2019, 12:14 PM   #121
Checkmite
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My first post in this thread contains a link to an article that directly quotes the arrest report in which it is reported she said she was going to shoot 400 people for fun, NOT that she would merely "like to".

Claiming that convincing pieces of evidence must not have been shared with anyone in order to "count" or to be credible, is arbitrary goal-post moving. Mass shooters have posted warnings in public forums.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:58 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There are two main interpretations.

One, she was a mass murder about to strike. The facts support that.

Two, she was cultivating a bad-girl image and it blew up in her face.
Well, I wouldn't want to be the LEO or any of the authorities involved in this if they had let her go assuming "two" was the correct assessment, and then she went out and showed that "one" was correct after all.

In any case, I do not believe the evidence is as strong for "two" as it is for "one". If she was just "cultivating a bad girl image", it is highly unlikely that she would have gone and bought an AK-47 with six magazines and 160 rounds of ammunition (which she literally bought just last week), and a 12-gauge shotgun with a stock sleeve for extra shells.
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Old 19th September 2019, 01:25 PM   #123
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First of all there is no reason to believe that the cops have made public all the relevant information, especially as it pertains to statements she made to other people and whether that makes the other people suspects or not. It seems to me this would be a delicate point in the investigation. So the fact that the cops have not named any other suspects means nothing to me.

She said she wanted to shoot a bunch of people, she acquired the means, she visualized clearly where and when she would strike and she telegraphed those intentions to others.

Whether she committed a crime or not depends on what the statutes say. Apparently at this point the state of Oklahoma says she has committed a serious crime. She's also convinced me that she's a threat to herself and others. She'd warrant lockup for that alone. When people tell you who they are, believe them. She's apparently a wanna-be mass murderer. Maybe she'll grow out of it. Maybe we'll know more in a few years. Until then, apply whatever criminal or mental-health statutes are relevant. End result, she is going to be in custody for a while. Possibly for years. Which IMO is appropriate.
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Old 19th September 2019, 01:58 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
First of all there is no reason to believe that the cops have made public all the relevant information, especially as it pertains to statements she made to other people and whether that makes the other people suspects or not. It seems to me this would be a delicate point in the investigation. So the fact that the cops have not named any other suspects means nothing to me.

She said she wanted to shoot a bunch of people, she acquired the means, she visualized clearly where and when she would strike and she telegraphed those intentions to others.

Whether she committed a crime or not depends on what the statutes say. Apparently at this point the state of Oklahoma says she has committed a serious crime. She's also convinced me that she's a threat to herself and others. She'd warrant lockup for that alone. When people tell you who they are, believe them. She's apparently a wanna-be mass murderer. Maybe she'll grow out of it. Maybe we'll know more in a few years. Until then, apply whatever criminal or mental-health statutes are relevant. End result, she is going to be in custody for a while. Possibly for years. Which IMO is appropriate.
Is it still Felony Hoax?

Quote:
She denied showing her co-worker a video of her shooting the AK-47, but admitted she had talked about the gun and had showed off photos of her posing with it. She played videos of her shooting the rifle for Stites and Jordan, police said. During the interview, Wilson appeared nervous to the sheriff’s officers. Her voice shook and she jumped from topic to topic mid-sentence, they said...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ooting-threat/

Looks like she was ... gasp ...nervous when the police were talking to her. Because you never get nervous talking to cops when you're innocent.
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Old 19th September 2019, 02:12 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, I wouldn't want to be the LEO or any of the authorities involved in this if they had let her go assuming "two" was the correct assessment, and then she went out and showed that "one" was correct after all.
There's certainly that; but on top of that, I don't think law enforcement - or any other member of the public - has any responsibility to question the sincerity of a person who claims to intend to commit a crime. For whatever reason, they want people to think they are imminent mass shooters - fine; they should expect to be treated as such. It's not a violation of somebody's freedom of speech to simply believe them when they say they're going to kill people and react appropriately.
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Old 19th September 2019, 08:16 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dude, I'm calling you out on trying to BS your way through this, while simultaneously blaming me.

You acknowledge you were wrong on conspiracy. Well , you say 'might' have been wrong. There's no ' might" about it. But I didn't say anything at the time, because you're right, it doesn't matter. Bit if you are going to say I know **** all about law while you make errors that basic, I'm calling you on it.

On that topic, you still don't acknowledge that you are wrong on the difference between a hoax and an attempt? When the prosecutors raised the charge to 'attempted', that didn't even clue you in?

You claimed I was not reading the articles repeatedly. Repeatedly, and you linked your cited quotes back to an article that didn't contain them. Any of them. That's dishonest, bro. No excuses. You could've said 'just google them yourself' but instead you pretended that you had already done so., while saying that the problem was me not reading the posts.

But FFS, can we stop this and get on topic? Pretty please? With ******* sugar on it?

Now, do you contend that my interpretation is impossible, or unlikely, or what?

I'm just gonna chime in and say you were correct to be skeptical at the beginning of the discussion. We need to be careful with how we define and treat threats.

I commented in a recent thread about not being sure if some threat or other should be considered a crime. I ere on the side of freedom of speech and then I work from there, otherwise we start heading down the "trade liberty for security" thing.

We need to be very careful here. I read the whole thread and I agree with where you're coming from. I'm surprised more don't. You're not defending this woman but a lot of people can't see past "one side or the other".

We could stop a lot more crime if we just started taking people's freedoms away, a little here and a little there... The ends don't necessarily justify the means.

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Old 19th September 2019, 08:20 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
...I ere on the side of freedom of speech and then I work from there, otherwise we start heading down the "trade liberty for security" thing...:
I applaud yee fur talkin' like a right ole' pirate on "talk like a pirate day", I do!!!



Aaaaaaaarghhhhh!!!
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Old 19th September 2019, 09:34 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, I wouldn't want to be the LEO or any of the authorities involved in this if they had let her go assuming "two" was the correct assessment, and then she went out and showed that "one" was correct after all.
Perfectly true. The cops certainly have to proceed as if it is an active plan in the works. I just hope they consider that 2 is possible, and that this is a likely screwed up teen they are dealing with. Possibly a mass murderer, and possibly just a really dumb kid who needs more help than prison.

Quote:
In any case, I do not believe the evidence is as strong for "two" as it is for "one". If she was just "cultivating a bad girl image", it is highly unlikely that she would have gone and bought an AK-47 with six magazines and 160 rounds of ammunition (which she literally bought just last week), and a 12-gauge shotgun with a stock sleeve for extra shells.
The shotgun, if I am reading the story right, she already had. Her parents said she had been a hunter and marksman for years.

Buying a rifle and 160 rounds and 6 mags...well, it is the states. Hardly an unusual purchase. I think the most unusual thing is choosing specifically an AK. Not a great target shooter or hunting gun, I believe. Certainly much better out there, and likely cheaper.

The AK's big feature is it's reputation as a people killer. Makes a dramatic prop to take pics with and show your friends. So I dunno. Maybe chosen as a fetish gun to go with her image, maybe as an efficient mass killing tool.
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Old 19th September 2019, 09:49 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Is it still Felony Hoax?
Not anymore. Upped the charges to felony attempt.

But I still don't feel quite right about having a dumb, troubled kid staring down years of prison and a lifetime paying fines for saying a couple (extremely) callous and foolish things, assuming for the moment that the OP info was all we had. 'I'm gonna shoot 400 people for fun' is a heartless and idiotic thing to say (again assuming it was all talk and pose) but it shouldn't ruin a kids life. Prison would unquestionably do that.

Quote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ooting-threat/

Looks like she was ... gasp ...nervous when the police were talking to her. Because you never get nervous talking to cops when you're innocent.
Bunch of Inspector Clouseaus, that Oklahoma PD.
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Old 19th September 2019, 10:06 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm just gonna chime in and say you were correct to be skeptical at the beginning of the discussion. We need to be careful with how we define and treat threats.

I commented in a recent thread about not being sure if some threat or other should be considered a crime. I ere on the side of freedom of speech and then I work from there, otherwise we start heading down the "trade liberty for security" thing.

We need to be very careful here. I read the whole thread and I agree with where you're coming from. I'm surprised more don't. You're not defending this woman but a lot of people can't see past "one side or the other".

We could stop a lot more crime if we just started taking people's freedoms away, a little here and a little there... The ends don't necessarily justify the means.

I hear you. Anecdotally, a buddy of mine got arrested for making terroristic threats years back. I was there, and what happened was that he and a subcontractor on the site got into a loud argument about pay. The little dirtbag sub called police later and said my buddy threatened to kill him. Cops took my buddy away in cuffs. Dirtbag never even showed up to court, but it still cost my guy abt $5K between court costs and getting it expunged. And that's getting off cheap.

This OP thing is the trickiest, though. School shootings are very real. But do we ruin evry dumb kid's life 'just to be on the safe side'? I mean, that's the Trolley Problem on steroids. I think this case is a 'might have been a mass killer' scenario, not a 'definitely was a mass killer' one. Not sure if years of prison is the move for a 'might be'.
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:57 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This OP thing is the trickiest, though. School shootings are very real. But do we ruin evry dumb kid's life 'just to be on the safe side'?
Yeah, we do, because ruining a dumb kid's life when they threaten to go postal with an assault weapon in a school is better than having a few dozen kids shot dead and ruining the lives of their parents, their sibling and their friends. Needs of the many at all that.

Besides which, even if it turns out it was nothing, that kind of dumb kid clearly has mental issues so it would be an opportunity to get them the help they need.

In this case, she made the threat (which was communicated to several people), she went out and bought the means, she had the motive, and she was deep into planning it. For mine, her actions pass the "clear and present danger" test (now called the "imminent lawless action" test after Brandenburg v Ohio 1969) - IMO, her workmate has just saved a crap-load of lives and misery for a lot of people.
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Old 20th September 2019, 06:19 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm just gonna chime in and say you were correct to be skeptical at the beginning of the discussion. We need to be careful with how we define and treat threats.

I commented in a recent thread about not being sure if some threat or other should be considered a crime. I ere on the side of freedom of speech and then I work from there, otherwise we start heading down the "trade liberty for security" thing.

We need to be very careful here. I read the whole thread and I agree with where you're coming from. I'm surprised more don't. You're not defending this woman but a lot of people can't see past "one side or the other".

We could stop a lot more crime if we just started taking people's freedoms away, a little here and a little there... The ends don't necessarily justify the means.

Your freedoms stop when mine begins. That's the strangest thing about the argument. This isn't speech protected by the first amendment and any attempt to read that into it is pretty much ********. She threatened people's lives, no one gets to do that without facing consequences. No one is taking this grown woman's ******* freedoms away because of arbitrary statements. She should have shut the **** up.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not anymore. Upped the charges to felony attempt.
Got a link for that? Searching "Alexis Wilson Felony Attempt" brings up nothing with those words combined in it. Searching the statutes I couldn't find that phrase at all either. I found that she's charged with:

Quote:
a felony act of terrorism
As far as the hoax part, legal definition:

Quote:
3. “Terrorism hoax” means the willful conduct to simulate an
act of terrorism as a joke, hoax, prank or trick against a place,
population, business, agency or government by:
Which is what she was first charged with.

Just needed to make those few corrections. Thermal, feel free not to respond to this post if it's too much. After begging to get back on topic, like someone forced you to engage previously, I wouldn't want to head down that road again. Thanks.
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:53 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, we do, because ruining a dumb kid's life when they threaten to go postal with an assault weapon in a school is better than having a few dozen kids shot dead and ruining the lives of their parents, their sibling and their friends. Needs of the many at all that.

Besides which, even if it turns out it was nothing, that kind of dumb kid clearly has mental issues so it would be an opportunity to get them the help they need.
That's the part that concerns me. American prisons aren't known for their compassionate mental health services. They are known for un-habilitating criminals. My fear is that if Wilson wasn't an actual animal going in, she will be one coming out.

Quote:
In this case, she made the threat (which was communicated to several people), she went out and bought the means, she had the motive, and she was deep into planning it. For mine, her actions pass the "clear and present danger" test (now called the "imminent lawless action" test after Brandenburg v Ohio 1969) - IMO, her workmate has just saved a crap-load of lives and misery for a lot of people.
This is what I'm still not clear on. The cops have given their paraphrasing of what they found, and said it was texted to someone else. Exactly how it was phrased and in what context is the difference between a hoax (what the police initially thought) and an act.

The texts have graduation dates, and something about areas with few exits. Ok, that sounds bad. But it doesn't sound deep in the planning stages. Sounds like the first five minutes of thinking about it.

All in, the part I find most disturbing is that this 18 yr old, expelled from school for bringing in weapons, could diddy bop over to Wal-Mart and by a freaking AK. She is considered too dangerous to be in the school system, but hey, have a modified semi auto military rifle, kid! Her ability to acquire the means, especially on a pizza store worker's pay, to buy that kind of hardware, is more troubling than her fantasies.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:07 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
All in, the part I find most disturbing is that this 18 yr old, expelled from school for bringing in weapons, could diddy bop over to Wal-Mart and by a freaking AK. She is considered too dangerous to be in the school system, but hey, have a modified semi auto military rifle, kid! Her ability to acquire the means, especially on a pizza store worker's pay, to buy that kind of hardware, is more troubling than her fantasies.
**

Quote:
Wilson went to McAlester High School but dropped out in 9th grade, according to authorities.
There are conflicting accounts:

Quote:
Wilson was expelled from McAlester High after being caught with a knife and a swastika at school multiple times. An affidavit obtained by NBC News says that she experienced bullying when she attended the school, and was unable to reenroll.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:08 AM   #135
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Why are we downplaying this one, truly? Is it because she's a woman and women don't do that? They clearly do, just not as often. ("I don't like Mondays," anyone?)

Clear and direct threat. Motive (hates the school and wants to shoot it up), means (weapon and ammo), and opportunity (the school event). Nail her to the wall. I'm glad her coworker spoke up before anyone got shot.

Just because she wasn't deep in the planning stages doesn't mean she wasn't planning. If I'm in the beginning stages of constructing a meth lab and get caught, I'm pretty sure I'd still be going down.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:13 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Why are we downplaying this one, truly? Is it because she's a woman and women don't do that? They clearly do, just not as often. ("I don't like Mondays," anyone?)

Clear and direct threat. Motive (hates the school and wants to shoot it up), means (weapon and ammo), and opportunity (the school event). Nail her to the wall. I'm glad her coworker spoke up before anyone got shot.

Just because she wasn't deep in the planning stages doesn't mean she wasn't planning. If I'm in the beginning stages of constructing a meth lab and get caught, I'm pretty sure I'd still be going down.
BUT TEH FURST AMENDMENT THO?!?!?!

Seriously, it boggles my mind too. I don't know how much deeper into planning you can get than having exactly what you described. She was literally just waiting for the date of the event from what I can tell. Outside of that everything was laid out perfectly.

To me this went exactly how we want it to go. Someone was threatening people, cops investigated, caught her, and she's being charged. Seems pretty standard to me.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:15 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Why are we downplaying this one, truly? Is it because she's a woman and women don't do that? They clearly do, just not as often. ("I don't like Mondays," anyone?)

Clear and direct threat. Motive (hates the school and wants to shoot it up), means (weapon and ammo), and opportunity (the school event). Nail her to the wall. I'm glad her coworker spoke up before anyone got shot.

Just because she wasn't deep in the planning stages doesn't mean she wasn't planning. If I'm in the beginning stages of constructing a meth lab and get caught, I'm pretty sure I'd still be going down.
"Means, motive, and opportunity" are usually employed to narrow down the suspect list for a crime that has actually been committed. You find a dead body. It looks like foul play. Who might have done it?

But here there is no dead body. There is no shooting. There's just someone with the "means, motive, and opportunity". Who might do something.

We're not downplaying it. You're begging the question that she did something that shouldn't be downplayed. Something like shooting up a school. But she hasn't done that.

The question is, was this an edgy teen fantasy, or a serious plan? Asking the question is not downplaying the issue. You're just assuming the question has already been answered, and chastising those of us who don't necessarily share your assumption.

Why are we downplaying it? More like, why are you playing it up so much?
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:17 AM   #138
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A few more things on this charming woman:

Quote:
We're hearing from a local family claiming Wilson has threatened to kill before. Even putting it in black and white, in a school yearbook just last year.

The family never reported Alexis Wilson because they didn't believe she was an actual threat saying Wilson just wanted to prove to other girls at the boarding school she was someone not to mess with.
It appears she did attend some form of school recently:

Quote:
Just last year, 17-year-old Adara Collins and 18-year-old Alexis Wilson attended Thunderbird Youth Academy.
I personally don't think she was forking around:

Quote:
The threats, an unsettling reminder to Collin’s mother, Lisa Price. Price remembers a phone call when Wilson threatened to stab and kill her daughter with a fork.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:20 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Got a link for that? Searching "Alexis Wilson Felony Attempt" brings up nothing with those words combined in it. Searching the statutes I couldn't find that phrase at all either. [url="https://www.mcalesternews.com/news/affidavit-former-student-referenced-columbine-shootings-next-mass-shooter/article_fab2b31c-d99a-11e9-800e-a35479f4c15e.html"]I found that she's charged with
Yeah, I meant that it was no longer being treated as a hoax, not that that was the specific charge. It was considered an actual attempt to commit the act, not a joke or prank anymore.

Quote:
As far as the hoax part, legal definition:

Which is what she was first charged with.
This is the surreal part of this argument. The police initially charged her with a terroristic hoax, right? As you have shown, a hoax is legally a joke or prank. FFS, let me separate this so you can see it clearly:

That is exactly what I have been arguing all along. The initial charge was correct, and I agreed with the police.

All y'all have been essentially arguing that she should have been charged with a terrorist act right out of the gate and the police were wrong.

Do you still think that a hoax also means an attempt that has not been carried out yet? I didn't see that in the definition you so courteously provided to correct with. You said that they were 'not proven' to be different charges. Does the definition you provide prove it to you now?

Quote:
Just needed to make those few corrections. Thermal, feel free not to respond to this post if it's too much. After begging to get back on topic, like someone forced you to engage previously, I wouldn't want to head down that road again. Thanks.
Oh, will you knock it off. You and I tend to get into page long hyper personalized line-by-line snipe attacks. Christ, on the Guyger thread we actually got threatened to be reported by another poster and you and I were in full agreement.

I'm extending an olive branch so we don't get into this 'it's proven that you're wrong and won't admit it' multi page train wreck thing and stay on topic. Cool with you? I'm guessing not. The last serious question I asked you was whether you think my proposed interpretation is impossible, or just not likely, or what. You've responded with that passive-aggressive last paragraph.

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Old 20th September 2019, 08:20 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The question is, was this an edgy teen fantasy, or a serious plan?
Why is that the question? Outside of JAQ'ing, and according to the law, this question makes absolutely no difference at all. It's completely and entirely irrelevant. Everything that happens in the real world starts out in the imagination. It obviously was a serious plan if she had everything put together. If not, what would qualify? If this isn't serious, what would be?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Asking the question is not downplaying the issue. You're just assuming the question has already been answered, and chastising those of us who don't necessarily share your assumption.

Why are we downplaying it? More like, why are you playing it up so much?
I don't think anyone is playing it up and isissxn didn't play it up at all. He accurately described exactly what she had going on. Name anything in his post that was wrong.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:22 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Why are we downplaying this one, truly? Is it because she's a woman and women don't do that? They clearly do, just not as often. ("I don't like Mondays," anyone?)

Clear and direct threat. Motive (hates the school and wants to shoot it up), means (weapon and ammo), and opportunity (the school event). Nail her to the wall. I'm glad her coworker spoke up before anyone got shot.

Just because she wasn't deep in the planning stages doesn't mean she wasn't planning. If I'm in the beginning stages of constructing a meth lab and get caught, I'm pretty sure I'd still be going down.
I have to assume that we are trying to protect some sub culture of gun owning cos-players who have taken tacticool from fashion statement to lifestyle and like to write out elaborate terrorist plots, but don't want to be held accountable for having stated their terroristic desires while also possessing all of the specialized tools necessary to carry out their terroristic desires.

If you frequent pilot forums and write a lot about which government building you could fly a plane into to get back at some desk jockey who ruined your life, you will be reported to the FBI and FAA pretty damn quickly. I get the impression that those in certain sub cultures of the gun community would not appreciate such knee jerk nanny state reactions.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:25 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Means, motive, and opportunity" are usually employed to narrow down the suspect list for a crime that has actually been committed. You find a dead body. It looks like foul play. Who might have done it?

But here there is no dead body. There is no shooting. There's just someone with the "means, motive, and opportunity". Who might do something.

We're not downplaying it. You're begging the question that she did something that shouldn't be downplayed. Something like shooting up a school. But she hasn't done that.

The question is, was this an edgy teen fantasy, or a serious plan? Asking the question is not downplaying the issue. You're just assuming the question has already been answered, and chastising those of us who don't necessarily share your assumption.

Why are we downplaying it? More like, why are you playing it up so much?
Police claim they have foiled several mass shootings since the El Paso shooting. Are you this dismissive of all of them?
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:25 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
**



There are conflicting accounts:
Yeah, I saw the conflicting accounts too. I assume expulsion was the accurate one because I don't think you can legally drop out in the 9th grade? That's 14 yrs old. Drop out age IIRC is 16 year old. Just off the top of my head, though
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:27 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Means, motive, and opportunity" are usually employed to narrow down the suspect list for a crime that has actually been committed. You find a dead body. It looks like foul play. Who might have done it?

But here there is no dead body. There is no shooting. There's just someone with the "means, motive, and opportunity". Who might do something.

We're not downplaying it. You're begging the question that she did something that shouldn't be downplayed. Something like shooting up a school. But she hasn't done that.

The question is, was this an edgy teen fantasy, or a serious plan? Asking the question is not downplaying the issue. You're just assuming the question has already been answered, and chastising those of us who don't necessarily share your assumption.

Why are we downplaying it? More like, why are you playing it up so much?
I believe that people who make these kinds of credible threats should suffer the consequences. If she "didn't mean it," then she shouldn't have repeatedly said she was going to do it and been in the planning stages, talking about a specific event and banging on about her edgy fantasy. I thought it was common knowledge that people get arrested for things like that, same as saying bomb on an airplane.

I was trying to figure out why there was so much resistance for this one. At first, I thought it might be due to her gender. Now I see it's a first and second amendment thing. But the first amendment doesn't let you declare that you're going to shoot up a school, with this particular weapon (look at it!), on this particular date, without consequences, right?

As to the rest of your post, I got nothing. It's like you don't know who you're responding to. I made one comment, didn't really chastise anyone other than this creepy woman, and have no idea what it is I'm supposed to be playing up. A person said they wanted to attack this event at this school with this gun. If she hadn't been arrested and investigated for that, then I'd be chastising the law.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:29 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
All y'all have been essentially arguing that she should have been charged with a terrorist act right out of the gate and the police were wrong.
Hey, and look at that! We ended up being right!

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Do you still think that a hoax also means an attempt that has not been carried out yet? I didn't see that in the definition you so courteously provided to correct with. You said that they were 'not proven' to be different charges. Does the definition you provide prove it to you now?
I think, even by the definition that I posted (I actually went through the process of trying to prove myself wrong, which is what I personally call skepticism) that it's not that simple. I don't think I was entirely wrong as the statute says "simulate" rather than "attempt", and it appears it's saying by that definition that it isn't a full on a attempt, but more of an "inciting a riot" type of charge. It might be that was the closest thing they had, but I don't know. Sans talking to a lawyer from OK, I'd say it's in the middle somewhere.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The last serious question I asked you was whether you think my proposed interpretation is impossible, or just not likely, or what. You've responded with that passive-aggressive last paragraph.
Nothing is impossible. My interpretation just turned out to be accurate based on the evidence. She was\is a violent individual that created a plan to kill people en mass, and she was busted by the cops.

A good ending for everyone and this was a textbook case of how it should go. I'm very pleased with how everything turned out.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:30 AM   #146
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"Oh well, it's probably just an edgy teen fantasy, nothing we can do, not enough evidence."

*shooting happens*

"Oh whoops, I guess she was serious. Our bad!"
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:33 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
BUT TEH FURST AMENDMENT THO?!?!?!

Seriously, it boggles my mind too. I don't know how much deeper into planning you can get than having exactly what you described. She was literally just waiting for the date of the event from what I can tell. Outside of that everything was laid out perfectly.

To me this went exactly how we want it to go. Someone was threatening people, cops investigated, caught her, and she's being charged. Seems pretty standard to me.
Let'start at the beginning: what was her deeply calculated plan for how to get to the scene with a weapon and bypass security? That's kind of step one, right? If she was deep into this, step one would be planned, right? It's kind of a big step. The biggest, really. Have the cops said anything about this detail in this carefully planned caper?

No. Just something about an area with few exits, and graduation dates. She was literally not at step one in the serious planning stages.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:41 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Let'start at the beginning: what was her deeply calculated plan for how to get to the scene with a weapon and bypass security? That's kind of step one, right? If she was deep into this, step one would be planned, right? It's kind of a big step. The biggest, really. Have the cops said anything about this detail in this carefully planned caper?

No. Just something about an area with few exits, and graduation dates. She was literally not at step one in the serious planning stages.
I've been refusing to go to bars for awhile now, due to paranoia over shootings. Recently, a friend was trying to convince me to go and was getting nowhere. "But there's armed security at this one!" she protested. "And they pat everybody down before they let them in!"

Fine and dandy, I said, but if an attacker just runs up and shoots the guard, what then? I don't know what security is like at this particular school, but it's not impossible for people with guns to get around guards. Especially if they look innocent at first, with their slight build and big brown doe-eyes. Then, AK in the backpack! (Would an AK fit in a backpack? I don't claim to know.)

I don't know, maybe I don't understand the politics behind this argument well enough to participate. I'm amazed that anyone thinks it was an overstep. I must be missing something.


ETA - It just seems like, in this day and age of constant shootings, we can't afford to just ignore unstable people who are announcing their credible intent to do harm. If the authorities had ignored this report, as some here think they should have, and then the woman had hurt people later - wouldn't everyone be criticizing law enforcement for not doing their jobs?

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Old 20th September 2019, 08:47 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Hey, and look at that! We ended up being right!
After new information came out, the charge changed. You were wrong on the initial assessment. I hope I'm wrong and they stopped a killing rather than ruin a kids life for being stupid.


Quote:
I think, even by the definition that I posted (I actually went through the process of trying to prove myself wrong, which is what I personally call skepticism) that it's not that simple. I don't think I was entirely wrong as the statute says "simulate" rather than "attempt", and it appears it's saying by that definition that it isn't a full on a attempt, but more of an "inciting a riot" type of charge. It might be that was the closest thing they had, but I don't know. Sans talking to a lawyer from OK, I'd say it's in the middle somewhere.
It says specifically a joke or prank. There is no provision in there for 'serious attempt that didn't get carried out'. But I'll drop it.

Quote:
Nothing is impossible. My interpretation just turned out to be accurate based on the evidence. She was\is a violent individual that created a plan to kill people en mass, and she was busted by the cops.
Your interpretation was wrong, based on the evidence at the time. When additional information came out, it became right. Unless you claim the gift of prophecy, you were jumping the gun, which is what I have been arguing and argue on 3/4 of the topics on the forum.

Quote:
A good ending for everyone and this was a textbook case of how it should go. I'm very pleased with how everything turned out.
It's...not over. It's just starting. A conspirator that she was texting may still be running around, for instance. She was not tried yet. Nothing has ended. It just began.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:48 AM   #150
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See, even her relatives didn't take her seriously because she had a uterus.
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Old 20th September 2019, 09:01 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I've been refusing to go to bars for awhile now, due to paranoia over shootings. Recently, a friend was trying to convince me to go and was getting nowhere. "But there's armed security at this one!" she protested. "And they pat everybody down before they let them in!"

Fine and dandy, I said, but if an attacker just runs up and shoots the guard, what then? I don't know what security is like at this particular school, but it's not impossible for people with guns to get around guards. Especially if they look innocent at first, with their slight build and big brown doe-eyes. Then, AK in the backpack! (Would an AK fit in a backpack? I don't claim to know.)

I don't know, maybe I don't understand the politics behind this argument well enough to participate. I'm amazed that anyone thinks it was an overstep. I must be missing something.
That rifle is twice as long as a big backpack, and something like half her own height. Not the kind of thing you can usually stroll around with unnoticed. When robbing a bank, getting the cash is the easy part. Getting into the area and bypassing security is the tricky part. Same here. If she just waltzed up, she might get gunned down by an alert cop blocks before she got to the school. Armed guards are on the lookout for people acting oddly and trying to hide something bulky under a trenchcoat, too. It's logistically not that easy.

Quote:
ETA - It just seems like, in this day and age of constant shootings, we can't afford to just ignore unstable people who are announcing their credible intent to do harm. If the authorities had ignored this report, as some here think they should have, and then the woman had hurt people later - wouldn't everyone be criticizing law enforcement for not doing their jobs?
Right, it can't be ignored, ever. My argument here is not to assume guilt when it is just as possible she was LARPing it up. She would still need to be investigated as seriously as if they caught her on the way to shoot, though.
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:27 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Let'start at the beginning: what was her deeply calculated plan for how to get to the scene with a weapon and bypass security? That's kind of step one, right? If she was deep into this, step one would be planned, right? It's kind of a big step. The biggest, really. Have the cops said anything about this detail in this carefully planned caper?
"Bypass security"? Do you think this was some kind of federal building or courthouse?

Just a little over a year ago, I had to pick up a niece from a modern high school. "Security" is a sign on the door saying all visitors must report to the office first.

A brief look at the Wikipedia article for the Parkland shooting demonstrates why it is utterly absurd to think a terroristic act of this type necessarily requires a "deeply calculated plan to get to the scene with a weapon and bypass security":

Quote:
The shooting took place during the afternoon of February 14, 2018, at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, an affluent suburb about 30 miles (48 km) northwest of Fort Lauderdale.[16][17] The shooter, former student Nikolas Cruz, was dropped off at the school by an Uber driver[18] at 2:19 p.m.,[6] shortly before dismissal time.[19] According to a police report, Cruz was carrying a rifle case[20] and a backpack[21] when he was spotted and recognized by a staff member who radioed a colleague that he was walking "purposefully" toward Building 12.[22][23] The first staff member claimed that his training called for only reporting threats; his colleague hid in a closet.[24][25]

Cruz entered Building 12,[note 3] a three-story structure containing 30 classrooms typically occupied by about 900 students and 30 teachers.[26] Armed with a legally purchased AR-15 style semi-automatic rifle[note 4] and multiple magazines,[29] he activated a fire alarm and began firing indiscriminately at students and teachers.[27][30][31]
Did Cruz have a "deeply calculated plan"? No; he just picked up his rifle - carried in a rifle case - and had Uber drop him off at the school, and strolled right in and started shooting.

So no, you're wrong; "step one" is not a Home Alone montage where the would-be shooter dramatically unrolls a schematic of the school building onto a table under a hanging lamp and starts technically analyzing approach points and lines of fire. In fact I feel confident saying that, historically, absolutely no school shooter is known to have created plans of that nature. Demanding such a plan from this person as evidence of her sincerity is demanding something absolutely unprecedented among school shooters; and for law enforcement to require such before taking the threat seriously would constitute ignoring the fairly well-established pattern of such incidents.
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:46 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Bypass security"? Do you think this was some kind of federal building or courthouse?

Just a little over a year ago, I had to pick up a niece from a modern high school. "Security" is a sign on the door saying all visitors must report to the office first.

A brief look at the Wikipedia article for the Parkland shooting demonstrates why it is utterly absurd to think a terroristic act of this type necessarily requires a "deeply calculated plan to get to the scene with a weapon and bypass security":



Did Cruz have a "deeply calculated plan"? No; he just picked up his rifle - carried in a rifle case - and had Uber drop him off at the school, and strolled right in and started shooting.

So no, you're wrong; "step one" is not a Home Alone montage where the would-be shooter dramatically unrolls a schematic of the school building onto a table under a hanging lamp and starts technically analyzing approach points and lines of fire. In fact I feel confident saying that, historically, absolutely no school shooter is known to have created plans of that nature. Demanding such a plan from this person as evidence of her sincerity is demanding something absolutely unprecedented among school shooters; and for law enforcement to require such before taking the threat seriously would constitute ignoring the fairly well-established pattern of such incidents.
The problem at Stoneman is that they didn't put up any of those signs that say "this is a gun-free zone".
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Old 20th September 2019, 12:24 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem at Stoneman is that they didn't put up any of those signs that say "this is a gun-free zone".
The problem at Stoneman is that a hateful idiot had legally-protected access to his murder-tools.
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Old 20th September 2019, 12:58 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That rifle is twice as long as a big backpack, and something like half her own height. Not the kind of thing you can usually stroll around with unnoticed.
Yet it happens all of the time.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
When robbing a bank, getting the cash is the easy part.
No one's robbing a bank. Useless comparison is useless.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Same here.
Because if it's one thing we know, it's that banks and high school graduations have the same level of security. Wait, they don't?!?!

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If she just waltzed up, she might get gunned down by an alert cop blocks before she got to the school. Armed guards are on the lookout for people acting oddly and trying to hide something bulky under a trenchcoat, too. It's logistically not that easy.
Yeah, cause these crazy kids always seem to...walk to their shootings? Also, any evidence there actually were armed guards? If it's logistically not easy then why do we have dozens of mass shootings a year?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right, it can't be ignored, ever. My argument here is not to assume guilt when it is just as possible she was LARPing it up. She would still need to be investigated as seriously as if they caught her on the way to shoot, though.
LoL LARP'ing?
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:03 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, cause these crazy kids always seem to...walk to their shootings? Also, any evidence there actually were armed guards? If it's logistically not easy then why do we have dozens of mass shootings a year?
Literally every school shooter "just waltzes up" to the school and starts shooting. That's how they invariably happen. I really don't know what he's on about; like with the noise he's making about "deeply calculated plans" being needed, he just seems to have this mental conception of these events that simply doesn't mesh with reality.
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:04 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
"Oh well, it's probably just an edgy teen fantasy, nothing we can do, not enough evidence."

*shooting happens*

"Oh whoops, I guess she was serious. Our bad!"
So what solution do you propose?

For example, what do you propose be done to restrict the rights of people when there's not enough evidence to do so?
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:06 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
After new information came out, the charge changed. You were wrong on the initial assessment. I hope I'm wrong and they stopped a killing rather than ruin a kids life for being stupid.
Where was I wrong? My first comment was on page two. "Being stupid" is peeing on the slide at school, not planning to ******* kill people.

I agree though, I hear that all the time.

"Did you hear about that young kid planning to slaughter people? Had a date, location, and event picked out."

"I did hear that! Those little rascals" *ruffles up kids hair*

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It says specifically a joke or prank. There is no provision in there for 'serious attempt that didn't get carried out'. But I'll drop it.
I can't find anything that states there's a specific crime for what you're asking for, as I previously mentioned.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your interpretation was wrong, based on the evidence at the time. When additional information came out, it became right. Unless you claim the gift of prophecy, you were jumping the gun, which is what I have been arguing and argue on 3/4 of the topics on the forum.
No, I wasn't wrong nor did I jump the gun. Unless you can find a specific post of mine jumping the gun. I'm extremely interested to see you backup that claim though, we wouldn't want baseless assertions around here.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's...not over. It's just starting. A conspirator that she was texting may still be running around, for instance. She was not tried yet. Nothing has ended. It just began.
In the articles I read there was no conspirator. They found texts of her threatening another student by explaining the plan. I linked to it upthread.

As far as the rest, the trial is just beginning. It appears the hard work has been done.
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Literally every school shooter "just waltzes up" to the school and starts shooting. That's how they invariably happen. I really don't know what he's on about; like with the noise he's making about "deeply calculated plans" being needed, he just seems to have this mental conception of these events that simply doesn't mesh with reality.
I took what he said as meaning the person is strapping all their stuff on and walking to where they are going to shoot people. Which would, actually, be completely unheard of.

You've been right every step though. Commonly there aren't deeply laid plans. That's not to say there haven't been (Columbine is an example), where they took time to prep bombs (that didn't work) and had a plan to kill themselves. That was more than one person though. There was a situation a few years back where the kid planned to kill his parents, set a fire and while first responders were at that location he was going to shoot up the school.

Again though, none of that was as you described. Schematics of the locations sprawled out with a breakdown of where guards would be on paper. She had every single thing she needed already figured out, planned out, and ready to go. She knew where (the graduation), she had the date of that graduation, she knew how many exits there were (and picked it because of that), she had multiple weapons and ammo, and she even cut her hair to match another mass murderer. There was nothing left that needed to be planned and anything implying differently is just nonsensical.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So what solution do you propose?

For example, what do you propose be done to restrict the rights of people when there's not enough evidence to do so?
I'd say the police have had a ton of success stifling these attacks recently (including 4 this past week). People should keep doing what they're doing. See a problem? Report it. Hear something odd? Report it. Let the cops do the rest. The police handled it with perfect precision on this case. There was a problem, they apprehended, they got a warrant, uncovered the plot, and now this little douche is going to prison for a good while. I'd, personally, prefer her to be in a mental health clinic, but she's threatened several people. She's obviously violent. As long as she's off the streets the world is a better place.
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Last edited by plague311; 20th September 2019 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 20th September 2019, 02:18 PM   #160
Checkmite
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I took what he said as meaning the person is strapping all their stuff on and walking to where they are going to shoot people. Which would, actually, be completely unheard of.
Well this is certainly true; but again, we're not exactly talking about something that needs elaborate planning. Yes, most school shooters did not walk from their home to the school while dressed like Rambo; usually, they drove their personal vehicles. The Parkland shooter, as mentioned, actually called a Uber. "Getting to the scene" is not some kind of logistical bottleneck for school shooters.

As for the Columbine shooters' plans - they had intentions, but they weren't incredibly detailed; for instance they brought bombs with them, but their grand "infiltration plan" was still to just walk up to the school with their weapons and start shooting whoever they happened to be there at the moment, which is what they did.

Indeed, in intimating her intention to strike specifically during some kind of assembly when the school auditorium was certain to be packed with victims, this girl has already demonstrated a depth of "planning" that easily surpasses most school shooters.
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