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Old 23rd September 2019, 08:46 AM   #201
Thermal
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The charges have her punishable by up to life in prison actually:



I've stated this multiple times. If I wasn't laughing so hard at the ridiculousness of your "points", your constant requirement that other people prove your points, and goalpost moving I would take this much more seriously. As it is though, I'm going to listen to the police. Who have taken increased charges after getting more information, though I'm still waiting for you to point out where I jumped the gun. That's a ******** statement if I ever read one.
Jumping the gun is what virtually everyone is doing. You are basically convicting her based on the prosecutors' opening statements.

I asked you a couple times already, and I'm still waiting for an answer, too: I have posed an interpretation that this could all be an idle fantasy on her part, around the same time she bought a new gun. Is this impossible?

Buying a gun is really, really not a big deal in the US, or damning evidence of anything. You do know that lots of people buy guns, right? More guns than people in the US and all, right?

What I am seeing is an idle bad-girl posing coupled with and established hunter and marksman buying a new gun. The sidebars with Checkmite are because he argues to argue, not because he even believes what he says. Surely you could read from our tones that we were not being serious. Right?

Checkmite actually pretended to argue that the lack of mentioning intercoms in the student handbook proves that no intercoms were at the school. He further argued that attendees at a graduation ceremony would get buzzed in individually. I mean, seriously, dude?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:22 AM   #202
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After all this wrangling over the applicability and evidence of "deep planning," I somehow got the idea that that phrase had originated in some statement by the authorities. But looking back through this thread to check, it appears no, it was a forum poster who first introduced it.

The DA did use the phrase "definite plan." Even if the police had used the phrase "deep in planning" instead, I would have taken it the same way I take "definite" in the DA's account: not to be referring to the degree of detail, thoroughness, or tactical merit of any plan of hers, but rather to her level of commitment to actually carrying out an attack. Because that's what they would care about. A set of blueprints overwritten with notations on timing, access via ventilation ducts, security challenges, firing lanes, and highest-priority targets would be important only as evidence of such clear intention. Drafts of a manifesto or a will would be just as strong or stronger evidence, despite adding no detail on operational plans.

The authorities may or may not have the quality of evidence that they claim to have for her degree of intention. I can't prove they're not reading too much into descriptions of an idle fantasy combined with coincidental details. Nor can I offer any evidence they are.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:34 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
After all this wrangling over the applicability and evidence of "deep planning," I somehow got the idea that that phrase had originated in some statement by the authorities. But looking back through this thread to check, it appears no, it was a forum poster who first introduced it.

The DA did use the phrase "definite plan." Even if the police had used the phrase "deep in planning" instead, I would have taken it the same way I take "definite" in the DA's account: not to be referring to the degree of detail, thoroughness, or tactical merit of any plan of hers, but rather to her level of commitment to actually carrying out an attack. Because that's what they would care about. A set of blueprints overwritten with notations on timing, access via ventilation ducts, security challenges, firing lanes, and highest-priority targets would be important only as evidence of such clear intention. Drafts of a manifesto or a will would be just as strong or stronger evidence, despite adding no detail on operational plans.

The authorities may or may not have the quality of evidence that they claim to have for her degree of intention. I can't prove they're not reading too much into descriptions of an idle fantasy combined with coincidental details. Nor can I offer any evidence they are.
The phrase used by police was 'in the advanced stages' of planning an attack. Which they supported by claiming she "liked" a documentary on Columbine, and some vague dates and something about exits.

I don't think that constitutes much of anything, advanced-stages-of-planning-wise. Maybe the cops are sitting on a whole lot more convincing evidence. I hope so.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:39 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Jumping the gun is what virtually everyone is doing. You are basically convicting her based on the prosecutors' opening statements.
No idea what you're talking about here. My only claim is that she was properly arrested and charged given the information available. You can claim otherwise, but your claim has no more merit than anyone else's.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I asked you a couple times already, and I'm still waiting for an answer, too: I have posed an interpretation that this could all be an idle fantasy on her part, around the same time she bought a new gun. Is this impossible?
I specifically replied, and said anything is possible. Though "it's my fantasy" isn't a defense to going around telling people you are going to commit murder. At least, I can't find anything to support that it is and if the police thought she was just messing around they would have left the charges as is, not increased them. Whether it was an idle fantasy or not, she turned it criminal when she told people she was going to do it and left a paper trial on how and when.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Buying a gun is really, really not a big deal in the US, or damning evidence of anything. You do know that lots of people buy guns, right? More guns than people in the US and all, right?
Irrelevant and I really don't give a **** to be honest. Though the hilited part is in question. That being said, no one here is after her because she had a gun. The claim, at least by me, is that she told people she was going to use that gun to kill people. Having it is perfectly fine as long as she bought it using legal means, which it appears she's done.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What I am seeing is an idle bad-girl posing coupled with and established hunter and marksman buying a new gun. The sidebars with Checkmite are because he argues to argue, not because he even believes what he says. Surely you could read from our tones that we were not being serious. Right?
I...don't really care all that much about the arguments between you two. It is what it is, but again. You seem to be bringing up this new gun repeatedly. I haven't seen anyone say that she shouldn't have had the gun, I have only seen it implied that by having that specific gun, and referring to it repeatedly, it provided her a means to do exactly what she, herself, has admitted she wanted to do. Kill people en mass at a graduation ceremony in Oklahoma.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:43 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The phrase used by police was 'in the advanced stages' of planning an attack. Which they supported by claiming she "liked" a documentary on Columbine, and some vague dates and something about exits.

I don't think that constitutes much of anything, advanced-stages-of-planning-wise. Maybe the cops are sitting on a whole lot more convincing evidence. I hope so.
It wasn't vague dates, she had a specific event that she wanted to do it at. An event that she absolutely knew was going to happen, she absolutely knew where it was going to happen at, and the only thing missing was the specific times the event was taking place. That's only because it hasn't been planned yet, but it's an event that was, undoubtedly, going to happen.

Her liking the video, and your other statement was not the only evidence. They have texts on her phone of her telling someone else she was going to do it. He asked her not to and that he would do what she asked, if I remember right it had something to do with getting her alcohol. She made a threat, and that's where it crossed the line. Not when she bought the gun, not when she got the ammo, not when she did anything else. When she openly said that she was going to use her AK-47 to shoot up the school, to multiple people (co-workers and friends), was when it became an issue. If she would have just fiddled the bean to the thought, and told no one, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

ETA: Before you do the inevitable "since it wasn't being planned, it was still vague, omgz". That's neither here nor there, and it's a useless point to make. If you can't figure out why, I don't have the energy or desire to walk you through it.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 09:56 AM   #206
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Okay, I have another problem with the charges that didn’t hit me until now;

How in the hell is this terrorism? I know the US has devalued the term internationally into “anyone disagreeing with total American hegemony,” but domestic terrorism still is usually defined as political in nature. She made a threat to kill people, but there is zero evidence of a motive to influence policies at any level.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:01 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No idea what you're talking about here. My only claim is that she was properly arrested and charged given the information available. You can claim otherwise, but your claim has no more merit than anyone else's.
Jesus diarrhea slurping puppy sodomizing shoeless Christ, are we arguing while being in complete agreement again?

Yes, she has to be charged with making threats. sign o' the times that you simply can't say things like that anymore. I have agreed repeatedly.

What I am arguing, is that posters here are diving neck deep into a narrative that is not demonstrated. This may all be an idle edgelord fantasy on her part, with no intention at all of actually being carried out.

Quote:
I specifically replied, and said anything is possible. Though "it's my fantasy" isn't a defense to going around telling people you are going to commit murder. At least, I can't find anything to support that it is and if the police thought she was just messing around they would have left the charges as is, not increased them. Whether it was an idle fantasy or not, she turned it criminal when she told people she was going to do it and left a paper trial on how and when.
Agreed. Now, saying 'imma kill 400 people for fun' doesn't sound like a serious threat to me. I sometimes say I'm going to string someone up by their balls, but it does not get taken as a terroristic threat either.

I'm also not putting it past the Oklahoma police that they are inflating the value of the iphone evidence, finding themselves suddenly in the national spotlight. We'll see. If she pleads down to threats and doesn't spend her life in the pokey, would that convince you that maybe she wasn't an actual mass murderer that the police turned back loose on the streets (latitude for the hypothetical, please)?

Quote:
Irrelevant and I really don't give a **** to be honest. Though the hilited part is in question. That being said, no one here is after her because she had a gun. The claim, at least by me, is that she told people she was going to use that gun to kill people. Having it is perfectly fine as long as she bought it using legal means, which it appears she's done.
Again, agreed. But posters here are attaching significance to the gun purchace. I think it's just one of those things that hunters and marksmen frequently do.

Quote:
I...don't really care all that much about the arguments between you two. It is what it is, but again. You seem to be bringing up this new gun repeatedly. I haven't seen anyone say that she shouldn't have had the gun, I have only seen it implied that by having that specific gun, and referring to it repeatedly, it provided her a means to do exactly what she, herself, has admitted she wanted to do. Kill people en mass at a graduation ceremony in Oklahoma.
1) she never said anything about shooting at a graduation. That's just assumed.
2) others keep harping on the purchase of the gun and ammo. I just dispute that it was demonstrably bought for committing a mass murder in 9 months. I think she just bought it, because she hunts and sport shoots
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:11 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You seem too have a pretty low opinion of Americans, who presumably learned from the mistakes that happened with Nicolas Cruz.
Please consider my polite and reverent request for evidence to support the highlighted.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:13 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What I am arguing, is that posters here are diving neck deep into a narrative that is not demonstrated. This may all be an idle edgelord fantasy on her part, with no intention at all of actually being carried out.
That's my point, it doesn't matter if she intended to carry it out. She gave every inclination that she did want to carry it out. Including telling people she knew that she was going to do exactly that. If people tell you who they are, believe them. Whether it was fantasy or not, she took it too far by threatening people.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. Now, saying 'imma kill 400 people for fun' doesn't sound like a serious threat to me. I sometimes say I'm going to string someone up by their balls, but it does not get taken as a terroristic threat either.
It wouldn't be terroristic, maybe, but it would certainly be actionable if you said it to that person. If you looked them in the face and said, "I'm going to gut you like a fish", you've committed a crime and you can face jail time.

You are not at all directly affected by her threat either. Right? So of course this isn't going to be a big deal to you. The people that were\are going to attend that graduation probably are taking it a bit more seriously, eh?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm also not putting it past the Oklahoma police that they are inflating the value of the iphone evidence, finding themselves suddenly in the national spotlight. We'll see. If she pleads down to threats and doesn't spend her life in the pokey, would that convince you that maybe she wasn't an actual mass murderer that the police turned back loose on the streets (latitude for the hypothetical, please)?
They charged her with x and then after seeing the phone, upgraded it to y. Why wouldn't they just stick with the previous charges if it didn't merit higher charges? DA's overcharge constantly, so I won't say this is wrong, but they already charged her with lower crimes initially. If the evidence didn't support it there was absolutely no requirement to increase the charges at all.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again, agreed. But posters here are attaching significance to the gun purchace. I think it's just one of those things that hunters and marksmen frequently do.
Yet literally millions of gun owners don't go around saying they're going to commit mass murder, which is why I don't believe anyone is complaining about her just having the gun, up until now. I do not believe that someone who has shown multiple signs of violence, admitted to having violent and murderous thoughts, and has threatened multiple people with death (stabbing someone with a fork, this incident, and I believe there was one other), should have a gun. They've lost that right to me.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
1) she never said anything about shooting at a graduation. That's just assumed.
2) others keep harping on the purchase of the gun and ammo. I just dispute that it was demonstrably bought for committing a mass murder in 9 months. I think she just bought it, because she hunts and sport shoots
Quote:
Pittsburg County Sheriff’s deputies found messages on Wilson’s iPhone referencing the number of exits at a facility that hosts the McAlester High School graduation and potential dates for the event
She most certainly did. The only part that's vague about that to me is it says "facility" instead of "gymnasium" which is where I thought it was going to be held.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:14 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
How in the hell is this terrorism? I know the US has devalued the term internationally into “anyone disagreeing with total American hegemony,” but domestic terrorism still is usually defined as political in nature. She made a threat to kill people, but there is zero evidence of a motive to influence policies at any level.
I don't think terrorism in this case means what you think it means. I'm fairly positive they're referring to terrorism here as terrorizing people, not like domestic terrorism. I could be wrong.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:15 AM   #211
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Please consider my polite and reverent request for evidence to support the highlighted.
Well, Dick's raised the age of buying guns to 21 as a result, right?

USA! USA!

Ok, conceded that we didn't learn. Really seems like we should've, though. So...and bear with me now... since we assume Wilson really was in the advanced stages of planning an actual mass murder, in the spirit of the thread:

I assume we have learned. Based on some vague texts I read.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:28 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
<snipping because we are basically in agreement>

She most certainly did. The only part that's vague about that to me is it says "facility" instead of "gymnasium" which is where I thought it was going to be held.
Yes, but it just refers to number of exits. That is suggestive, sure, but it is not a confession. I'd really like to know in what context this particular text was made. I can't think of many that would make the recipient innocent.

Also, when Wilson texted she would shoot up a school:

Quote:
The student replied to Wilson, telling her not to shoot the school, and she responded with a laughing emoji and “no worries,” deputies wrote
Since posters here attribute so much to her texts, I wonder if they ascribe just as much to this one, which seems to show that she was not serious at all?

Also n that article was a really ugly one: that she hoped to be identified as the next mass shooter. Okay, more than the other stuff, that is really damning. Could still possibly be the edgelord pose, but at least this one is a direct reference.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:36 AM   #213
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Damn, we are so close to getting context for these famed texts:

Quote:
Wilson texted back that the facility “has less exits to cover and they are crowded together” in the building before messaging about which dates graduation is usually held, according to the affidavit.
Ok, so that's something. So were they spitballing mass shooting scenarios? What was the other person (apparently a high school student who was providing Wilson with alcohol) texting that such a topic was being bantered?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:43 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think terrorism in this case means what you think it means. I'm fairly positive they're referring to terrorism here as terrorizing people, not like domestic terrorism. I could be wrong.
Yes, "terroristic threats" is a charge that can be used for remarks intended to "terrorize" someone. It doesn't have to be related to political terrorism.

Close to a decade ago, I had a roommate whose ex-boyfriend kept showing up on our porch, pounding on the door and yelling that he was going to kill her. When the cops finally showed up, he was arrested and charged with "terroristic threats" (along with some other stuff). I either never learned or don't remember what the outcome was, but I know that was among the initial charges.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:49 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Damn, we are so close to getting context for these famed texts:



Ok, so that's something. So were they spitballing mass shooting scenarios? What was the other person (apparently a high school student who was providing Wilson with alcohol) texting that such a topic was being bantered?
I posted that a few pages ago.

From what I can understand she asked him for alcohol and he said no. She then threatened to shoot up the school to which he requested she not.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 10:57 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I posted that a few pages ago.

From what I can understand she asked him for alcohol and he said no. She then threatened to shoot up the school to which he requested she not.
But how does that segue into talking about covering exits in a gym? That's what I mean about context. How does that come up?
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Old 23rd September 2019, 11:07 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But how does that segue into talking about covering exits in a gym? That's what I mean about context. How does that come up?
I would assume it was part of her threat. "If you don't do what I want, I'll shoot up the school. I know when graduation is, I know where the exits are, and I have no issues doing it."

Doesn't seem at all like a stretch to me in the slightest. She also threatened to stab a woman with a ******* fork.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 11:35 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I would assume it was part of her threat. "If you don't do what I want, I'll shoot up the school. I know when graduation is, I know where the exits are, and I have no issues doing it."

Doesn't seem at all like a stretch to me in the slightest. She also threatened to stab a woman with a ******* fork.
In my opinion, this girl is capable of carrying out the threats, is mentally ill, with more then a bit evil about her.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 11:36 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I would assume it was part of her threat. "If you don't do what I want, I'll shoot up the school. I know when graduation is, I know where the exits are, and I have no issues doing it."

Doesn't seem at all like a stretch to me in the slightest. She also threatened to stab a woman with a ******* fork.
Exactly. Threatened, but did squat. That's my take on her. A whole lotta blah blah blah
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Old 23rd September 2019, 11:53 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The phrase used by police was 'in the advanced stages' of planning an attack. Which they supported by claiming she "liked" a documentary on Columbine, and some vague dates and something about exits.

I don't think that constitutes much of anything, advanced-stages-of-planning-wise. Maybe the cops are sitting on a whole lot more convincing evidence. I hope so.

My point remains, the police are most likely speaking of her degree of intention, not the level of detail of her plans. Because detailed plans requiring actual chronological increments and defined stages of planning, beyond what had already occurred, are unnecessary for carrying out a mass shooting. It's not a business plan or a space mission.

Which means we don't have any evidence, one way or the other. What we know about what she said about dates and exits only speaks indirectly to intention. I, too, hope the police do in fact have the evidence their charges imply they have.

The time delay to graduation time (8 months from now?) does shed some doubt. Even with a clear intention, how likely would she have maintained that intention for eight months? If she were really that resolved, I'd expect her to have chosen a more imminent event. But, maybe she did; that could be one of countless possibilities the police already know about that we do not.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 11:58 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Exactly. Threatened, but did squat. That's my take on her. A whole lotta blah blah blah
It doesn't matter. What you said here is completely and entirely irrelevant. The charges aren't in the carry out, they're in the threat. She made those threats. Whether you, I, or anyone else finds them credible or not makes no difference. She made the threats, she admitted to them, and that's the law. It's not "well, they said it but did she REALLY mean it".

That makes absolutely no difference, unless you'd like to have that off topic conversation, but as to the charges it makes no difference at all.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:02 PM   #222
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It wasn't vague dates, she had a specific event that she wanted to do it at. An event that she absolutely knew was going to happen, she absolutely knew where it was going to happen at, and the only thing missing was the specific times the event was taking place. That's only because it hasn't been planned yet, but it's an event that was, undoubtedly, going to happen.
Middle of May 2020. That isn't very far away, only 8 months. Thermal's BS about it being too far away for her to have been planning it is just that... BS

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
IHer liking the video, and your other statement was not the only evidence. They have texts on her phone of her telling someone else she was going to do it. He asked her not to and that he would do what she asked, if I remember right it had something to do with getting her alcohol. She made a threat, and that's where it crossed the line. Not when she bought the gun, not when she got the ammo, not when she did anything else. When she openly said that she was going to use her AK-47 to shoot up the school, to multiple people (co-workers and friends), was when it became an issue. If she would have just fiddled the bean to the thought, and told no one, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

ETA: Before you do the inevitable "since it wasn't being planned, it was still vague, omgz". That's neither here nor there, and it's a useless point to make. If you can't figure out why, I don't have the energy or desire to walk you through it.
Most rampage killers don't plan very much anyway, they just show up the the venue with a weapon and open fire on the first person they encounter.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:21 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It doesn't matter. What you said here is completely and entirely irrelevant. The charges aren't in the carry out, they're in the threat. She made those threats. Whether you, I, or anyone else finds them credible or not makes no difference. She made the threats, she admitted to them, and that's the law. It's not "well, they said it but did she REALLY mean it".

That makes absolutely no difference, unless you'd like to have that off topic conversation, but as to the charges it makes no difference at all.
You seriously think it is off topic to discuss the value of the evidence and possible outcomes? The thread topic is restricted (by who?) to be 'Was this woman rightfully charged, y/n?'

If you say so.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:25 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You seriously think it is off topic to discuss the value of the evidence and possible outcomes? The thread topic is restricted (by who?) to be 'Was this woman rightfully charged, y/n?'

If you say so.
Because, again, the charges aren't that she did it. The charges are that she threatened to do it. Her threatening to do it is against the law. YOU, thermal, don't have to find them credible. The cops do, and she admitted to them.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:25 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Middle of May 2020. That isn't very far away, only 8 months. Thermal's BS about it being too far away for her to have been planning it is just that... BS
Dead freaking lie. I made no such claim. Try reading for comprehension once on a while.

I said that it was too far away to have a precise date yet. Your add-ons to that are lies.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:27 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Because, again, the charges aren't that she did it. The charges are that she threatened to do it. Her threatening to do it is against the law. YOU, thermal, don't have to find them credible. The cops do, and she admitted to them.
Yet again...for I forget how many times now...the charges are appropriate.

But we are back to pointless repetition. See ya on the next one
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Old 23rd September 2019, 12:32 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yet again...for I forget how many times now...the charges are appropriate.

But we are back to pointless repetition. See ya on the next one
Toodles.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 01:02 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Middle of May 2020. That isn't very far away, only 8 months. Thermal's BS about it being too far away for her to have been planning it is just that... BS

<snip>

She's a teen-aged girl. How could anyone reasonably expect her to have the capacity to plan for something an entire eight months in the future.

Sheesh.

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Old 23rd September 2019, 01:10 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, Dick's raised the age of buying guns to 21 as a result, right?

USA! USA!

Ok, conceded that we didn't learn. Really seems like we should've, though. So...and bear with me now... since we assume Wilson really was in the advanced stages of planning an actual mass murder, in the spirit of the thread:

I assume we have learned. Based on some vague texts I read.
You know I'm always along for the ride . . .

I assume we have not learned much, but will learn more as the case progresses through the judicial system.

I'm not certain she should be found guilty, but I'm certain that if you have a gun and threaten to use it we should take that seriously, maybe even literally.

We have a first amendment and we have a second amendment, but neither were intended to encourage edgy teens to terrorize their former high schools.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 03:50 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dead freaking lie. I made no such claim. Try reading for comprehension once on a while.

I said that it was too far away to have a precise date yet. Your add-ons to that are lies.
Your can't escape from what you said by nitpicking the details and narrowing up the goalposts

You're busted!
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Old 23rd September 2019, 04:10 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post



Most rampage killers don't plan very much anyway, they just show up the the venue with a weapon and open fire on the first person they encounter.
How do you know? If it is based on statistics, say, hypothetically, this is true of 80%, there is still the 20% to consider. I find it very compelling that she already has a history of violence, and her planning, going through different possible scenarios were all considerations of the act she intended to carry out.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 04:49 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It certainly might; but I don't know how likely it is she would've considered this. She had been out of school for some time at this point. Plus, you've usually got to get your gown from the school itself. Heck, my own school didn't even actually issue gowns to students or special-order them; they had a supply which they lent strictly on graduation night and had to be returned at the end, and that's it.
IIRC we had to rent ours and I don't remember where we had to get it. Not necessarily at school, but I don't know for sure.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:10 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My argument has been, since the beginning: the evidence is flimsy for an actual plot to do anything being in place. She could just as well have been cultivating a bad-girl image that blew up in her face.
Most people here, as well as the police who amended her charges, disagree. I have yet to see any evidence to support your speculation that her threats were mere idle posturing.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No. It is yet another example of you changing the facts to create a more damning narrative.
Wrong, it is a fact that Wilson's charges were increased: Prosecutor Upgrades Charge Against McAlester Woman In School Shooting Threat Investigation

Quote:
District Attorney Chuck Sullivan amended Monday’s charge of a terroristic hoax to a more serious terroristic act charge, which carries a punishment of life in prison.
This is not me or anyone else "changing the facts", it is merely the facts. They exist as such independently of whether they support your point of view in this case or not.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I said marksman and hunter, as her parents claimed. I'm sure it was entirely innocent that you forgot to read that.
She had just purchased the AK-47 according to police, so chances are slim she had extensive practice with it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That is a lie. Two, actually. I don't think she was plotting to do a damn thing. And the graduation ceremony is just kind of assumed to be her target event, because of a couple texts of unknown context. But more on this below:
No, the graduation ceremony is "just kind of assumed" to be her target event because she personally and directly discussed it during a conversation in which she threatened a school shooting. In "Big Lie" fashion you insist upon characterizing these texts as "vague" every time you mention them; but they are anything but vague, and everyone else here understands that. The people she was texting did not have any doubt that she was seriously threatening a school shooting.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is why I love you. Treating you like a child for the moment:

Do you know that the current month is September, Checkmite? Did you know that high school graduations are in the late spring, Checkmite? Here it comes: did you know that the graduation does not have a specific time or place yet Checkmite? No one knows how many snow closings will happen yet, and schools have to satisfy minimum open days. So there was no date or time set at all.
According to the McAlester Public Schools district calendar, the McAlester High School graduation ceremony is currently scheduled for 11am on the 23rd of May, 2020.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is a lie. She did not invoke anything. Graduation dates were simply said to be found on her phone. Ooooooh, maybe she had those dates on her calendar to keep the date open for the volunteer setup work you theorized earlier! You so smart. Why didn't I see that sooner?

She did not invoke the graduation date in any known context. You are misrepresenting facts in order to create a more damning narrative.
The context was a discussion about her shooting up the event.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
She had a date on her phone. It is not reported to have a little skull and crossbones emoji next to it, or a 'D-Day' or anything. Just a date. Coupled with her comment about 'lot of people in her school she would like to do it to', you (and others) are assuming that she planned to mass murder at the graduation. This is not a fact in evidence. You are presenting your assumptions as fact to create a more damning narrative.
No, I'm assuming based on her claim that she intended to carry out a mass shooting, and the fact that the graduation date was allegedly invoked during a conversation about that intention.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not in evidence. Only surmised and assumed from blurbs. The only know step of any kind was buying a gun, which is not remotely unusual.
It is not remotely unusual for a school shooter to buy a gun as a step toward fulfilling a school shooting, or to begin dropping hints in conversations about their intent.

It would be highly unusual for a person with no intent to carry out a mass shooting, to buy a gun and then start telling people she was going to carry out a mass shooting with it, even to the point of naming a specific event and explaining her reasoning for choosing it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
FTFY. That was one lame-ass evasion, by the way. I specifically said not to try and say 'well, we can assume that..'. No. You said she cited a specific date and time. Neither even exists yet, even if we assume further that the graduation was the target event.
She evoked the graduation, for which a specific date and time very much do exist, per my link given above.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:21 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I do not believe that someone who has shown multiple signs of violence, admitted to having violent and murderous thoughts, and has threatened multiple people with death (stabbing someone with a fork, this incident, and I believe there was one other), should have a gun. They've lost that right to me.
Not saying this pertains to you, but I think people in general don't realize how limited background checks actually are. For example, in the Scalise/congressional shooting, it seemed clear what a loose cannon the shooter was, but he had never actually been convicted of a crime or determined to be mentally ill. Anything you do as a juvenile is probably purged, and the bar for violence and/or mental illness is pretty high. Stand-alone threats don't mean a lot. If you have been involuntarily committed to a psychiatric hospital, that would probably show up on the radar but there are no guarantees there, either.

Despite these issues I do believe that even a psychiatric diagnosis should probably not be in itself disqualifying, because I'm not sure how solid the evidence is that people who carry out mass shootings meet the clinical definition of mentally ill. Plus, I'm not sure that people with such diagnoses are statistically any more likely to commit crimes.

I don't want mean, violent evil people to have firearms, but those aren't legal findings. I'm not saying we shouldn't do our best to deny weapons to all domestic violence offenders, all felons except those who have had their civil rights restored and perhaps some categories of the adjuticated mentally ill. But just denying them to "crazies" is problematic.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:29 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
How do you know? If it is based on statistics, say, hypothetically, this is true of 80%, there is still the 20% to consider. I find it very compelling that she already has a history of violence, and her planning, going through different possible scenarios were all considerations of the act she intended to carry out.
I don't "know" that, but I gleaned it from reading news reports from survivors. In most cases, the those survivors say shooter(s) just turned up and started shooting. This girl was obviously doing some planning, but basically, it looks like she was just going to turn up at the school graduation and start shooting anyone she sees.

I don't buy Thermal's whole ball of wax about security, and having to have evidence of the specific time and place. If a criminal is planning, say, a bank robbery, they have already decided they are going to do it long before they get down to the details of the date and time to strike.

I think Thermal made some rash statements, and now feels he/she cannot back away from them without losing face and credibility - so the goalposts keep getting moved and narrowed in a never-ending attempt to justify the original comments and defend the indefensible.
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Old 23rd September 2019, 07:41 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't "know" that, but I gleaned it from reading news reports from survivors. In most cases, the those survivors say shooter(s) just turned up and started shooting. This girl was obviously doing some planning, but basically, it looks like she was just going to turn up at the school graduation and start shooting anyone she sees.

<snip>

From their perspective I would be surprised were this not to generally be the case.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:17 AM   #237
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Most people here,
Appeal to popularity

Quote:
...as well as the police who amended her charges, disagree. I have yet to see any evidence to support your speculation that her threats were mere idle posturing.
And I have yet to see evidence that the threats intending violence against others were credible.

Quote:
Wrong, it is a fact that Wilson's charges were increased: Prosecutor Upgrades Charge Against McAlester Woman In School Shooting Threat Investigation



This is not me or anyone else "changing the facts", it is merely the facts. They exist as such independently of whether they support your point of view in this case or not.
Cheap evasion. I said your initial comment, that she was 'arrested for plotting', was changing the facts to create a more damning narrative. That the charges were later raised has never been in dispute, despite your theatrics here.

Quote:
She had just purchased the AK-47 according to police, so chances are slim she had extensive practice with it.
Wut? She had been a shooter and marksman for years. You are assuming that this particular rifle takes some unusual acclimation to adapt to? What are you saying, if anything?

Quote:
No, the graduation ceremony is "just kind of assumed" to be her target event because she personally and directly discussed it during a conversation in which she threatened a school shooting.
...in which she also responded with a 'laughing till crying' emoji and a 'no worries'. Since you take her word as unassailable truths, for whatever reason, you must take that retraction with equal value. Or be demonstrably employing a confirmation bias. Your choice.

Quote:
In "Big Lie" fashion you insist upon characterizing these texts as "vague" every time you mention them; but they are anything but vague, and everyone else here understands that. The people she was texting did not have any doubt that she was seriously threatening a school shooting.
Another appeal to popularity, and you now claim mind reading? This is getting interesting. We only have blurbs about the texts, so no, we really don't know what the context was and what the recipients thought. The police said of the alcohol-providing recipient that they simply said not to do that. There is zero evidence to demonstrate that the recipient took it seriously. Did they report it to police? No? That shows you EXACTLY how seriously they took the 'threat', if they did not report a shooting that would take place at their own school that they attend and which they would be a specific target of. I mean, come on, dude.

Quote:
According to the McAlester Public Schools district calendar, the McAlester High School graduation ceremony is currently scheduled for 11am on the 23rd of May, 2020.

Sorry.
Good catch! But as you have theorized, I'm sure she was just saving the date for her volunteer set-up work at graduation. That was your theory, right?

Quote:
No, I'm assuming based on her claim that she intended to carry out a mass shooting, and the fact that the graduation date was allegedly invoked during a conversation about that intention.
No, see, you are doing it again. The police said the graduation date was on her phone. The text conversation was saying she would shoot up the school if the alcohol provider tried to screw her over, no dates mentioned (pretty obviously hyperbolic when you include the laughing emoji and 'no worries'). The talk with the coworker was that there were poeple in the school she would like to do it to (before you err again, it has been both reported that she said 'was going to' and 'would like to' for the 400-for-fun part, but the comment about people in the school is always specifically quoted as 'would like to'.

While this line-by-line snipe fest is indeed a real hoot, you still don't seem to understand my somewhat sledgehammered argument. Let's try it again:

1. The Incident: Wilson readily admitted to saying something about shooting 400 people for fun to a coworker, but also immediately said the coworker misunderstood. This candor suggests to me that she may be telling the truth.

2. The Phone Stuff: The police find on her phone that she had a text conversation (from who knows when) where she said she would shoot up her alcohol provider's school if he tried to screw her over. She also responded with a laughing emoji and 'no worries', indicating that she was not at all serious. There was some kind of elaboration about there being few exits to cover at the graduation ceremony, but based on the laughing stuff, I would like to know more about the context. Was she simply further joking about corralling alcohol boy? I can't tell.

The date of the graduation was 'on her phone'. Ok. Lots of dates are on people's phones. What is the context? Was it a shooting date that she...what, was going to forget otherwise? Doesn't really make sense.

There were pics of school shootings and a (shudder) "like" for a Columbine documentary, and a comment thet she cut her hair to look like a columbine shooter. Ok, sicko fascination with school shootings. Not all that uncommon, considering her demonstrable bad-girl persona.

3. The Anecdotes: A couple comments from other people who remember her once saying she was going to stab someone with a fork (didn't do a damn thing tho). Expelled/quit school years ago for bringing a knife in (didn't do a damn thing tho). There were apparently swastikas drawn on her belongings or something. We doing the white supremacist thing now?. This was of course from years ago. FFS, you should be able to come up with more dirt on virtually anybody.

4. OMG An American Sportsman Bought a Gun: BFD.

So that's it. 'But but but the sum total!" you say? The sum total ain't ****.

We have been 90% joking around, but I ask you now seriously to run through your own personal Greatest Hits reel. Do you think that things you have done, if cherry-picked and presented in a certain way, could make you look like a mass killer? I surely could. On my phone right now are pics of what appear to be improvised explosives (some actually pictured burning), and my workshop right now has different fuels, igniters, and remote control electronics being worked on. That's because I am preparing for Halloween pyrotechnic displays, but you wouldn't know that by looking. I tinker with them year round as the mood strikes, so the dates would look bad for me, too.

People could give pages of anecdotes, nay, volumes, about my 'violent' history, too. Police incident reports galore, mostly involving prowling or trespass. Arrests, when I was younger. Texts with my kids about how we play Mission Impossible to duck college security. Framed a certain way, I could look like an indisputable mass killer, to you. And that's because you are not taking context into the OP events.

So I ask yet again: is what I am suggesting so improbable? A wannabe bad-girl with edgy fantasies who flapped her gums to much about what a stone cold whacko she is, and had it blow up in her face? I think it's entirely plausible, and more likely that actual murderess on the hoof.

Before you say it: yes, the police had to arrest her. These things have to be taken seriously. But the police saying 'advanced stages', when even we agree there are no advanced (presumably beginning and intermediate stages too) stages (pluralized, indicating that there are multiple levels at each stage), so this stikes me as the police unexpectedly finding themselves in the national spotlight and exaggerating what they have, to be played down later.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:27 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And I have yet to see evidence that the threats intending violence against others were credible.
Would you really expect to prior to trial?

Look at the guyer thread and how much more we are learning now that the prosecution is laying out everything they actual know versus what was in the media. I'm not trying to drag that case into this case, but it is clear that the police and DA will hold certain facts, maybe the best facts, back until trial. They win nothing by trying the case in the media first.

Based on the press accounts I think this warranted further investigation. Based on the escalation of charges I expect to see more damning evidence than that presented to the press so far. Based on prior mishaps by both the press and the legal system, I will reserve judgement until we see the actual trial.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:38 AM   #239
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"I've seen no credible evidence"

"She literally said it to co-workers and friends"

"But they didn't report her, even they didn't take her seriously!!!"

"But...they did report her. That's how the cops found out."

"But that still doesn't make it credible. Just because she, herself, made the threats, admitted to them, and showed intent, motive, and means, doesn't mean that they're credible at all."

"....the ****?"
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Would you really expect to prior to trial?

Look at the guyer thread and how much more we are learning now that the prosecution is laying out everything they actual know versus what was in the media. I'm not trying to drag that case into this case, but it is clear that the police and DA will hold certain facts, maybe the best facts, back until trial. They win nothing by trying the case in the media first.

Based on the press accounts I think this warranted further investigation. Based on the escalation of charges I expect to see more damning evidence than that presented to the press so far. Based on prior mishaps by both the press and the legal system, I will reserve judgement until we see the actual trial.
But that is precisely my point in these long-winded snipe-fests: other posters have committedly slammed down the gavel, and unequivocally. I am arguing that there is no reason whatsoever to so confidently declare her guilty, and am posing (what I think is) a counter interpretation for consideration. One that I think is true, but I cannot acquit either, till more facts come out. That is a big part of my argument, btw, that we don't have nearly enough context from the news snippets to fairly judge yet.
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