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Old 19th November 2019, 02:21 PM   #1
Thor 2
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Acceptance of Gender Diversity

I look at something like this with incredulity. That some folk just deny the undeniable because to not do so challenges their mindset.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...urvey/11714302

Quote:
Australians are split on how they think about gender diversity beyond the traditional framework of males and females, new survey data suggests.
Forty-five per cent of Australians somewhat or strongly agree that there are more than two genders, however, 38 per cent disagree and 15 per cent are neutral.

How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?
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Old 19th November 2019, 02:27 PM   #2
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In much the same way people deny the reality of anthropomorphic climate change, evolution by natural selection, the (almost) sphericity of the Earth et cetera; they are part of a reality that those people don't want to be true, hence they deny that reality.
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Old 19th November 2019, 02:48 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed...
Isn't gender (as opposed to sex) a relatively novel social construct?

ETA: John MoneyWP, circa 1955
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Old 19th November 2019, 03:06 PM   #4
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Would have to see if the question they were answering properly highlighted that gender was a separate thing to biological sex before passing judgment on the 38%

Because it these things usually don't and it all gets scewed
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Old 19th November 2019, 03:38 PM   #5
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I am surprised that the "Don't know" component is so low.

98% of people know what gender is and still no-one can explain it to me.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Would have to see if the question they were answering properly highlighted that gender was a separate thing to biological sex before passing judgment on the 38%

Because it these things usually don't and it all gets scewed

From what I read it can be a mixture.

A person can have male genitals but have XX chromosomes. Whether such a person would tend to identify as a woman predominantly I don't know.

We also have people born with ambiguous genitalia. In years gone by decisions were made by parents and doctors to surgically promote one sex at the expense of another. Tragically, sometimes the subject would disagree with the decision made.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I look at something like this with incredulity. That some folk just deny the undeniable because to not do so challenges their mindset.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...urvey/11714302




How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?
re the highlighted: I don't think it's a fact that can be observed is it?

for instance, what if everyone who said they didn't align with male or female, were just suffering from a case of 'wanting to feel special'?

I don't believe that of course, but to label things as facts you need to rule a lot of stuff, if not everything else, out.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:08 PM   #8
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How many factual genders have we observed?
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
In much the same way people deny the reality of anthropomorphic climate change, evolution by natural selection, the (almost) sphericity of the Earth et cetera; they are part of a reality that those people don't want to be true, hence they deny that reality.

I have a nephew like that. As an enthusiastic (Jesus talks to me) Christian he seems to think God can't make mistakes like that so a person is either male or female. A mountain of evidence about the occurrence of mixed up chromosomes, ambiguous genitalia and such, has no effect on his mindset.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How many factual genders have we observed?
This is the crux of the matter. Aside from masculinity and femininity (and various admixtures thereof) what distinct forms of gender expression are available in Australian culture?
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have a nephew like that. As an enthusiastic (Jesus talks to me) Christian he seems to think God can't make mistakes like that so a person is either male or female. A mountain of evidence about the occurrence of mixed up chromosomes, ambiguous genitalia and such, has no effect on his mindset.
Mountain of evidence? All the stuff you mentioned is pretty damn rare. And it is physical too. I think that in today's parlance that means "sex", while "gender" means mental differences. So, 2 sexes, 42 'genders'. Biology vs Psychology?

Now, what is the question in the OP- Biologically speaking, or psychological?
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Mountain of evidence? All the stuff you mentioned is pretty damn rare. And it is physical too. I think that in today's parlance that means "sex", while "gender" means mental differences. So, 2 sexes, 42 'genders'. Biology vs Psychology?

Now, what is the question in the OP- Biologically speaking, or psychological?

This is the bit I mentioned wanting to see if it was made clear with the question before judging the %s of what people said
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:30 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Mountain of evidence? All the stuff you mentioned is pretty damn rare. And it is physical too. I think that in today's parlance that means "sex", while "gender" means mental differences. So, 2 sexes, 42 'genders'. Biology vs Psychology?

Now, what is the question in the OP- Biologically speaking, or psychological?

Something does not have to be common for the evidence of its existence to be overwhelming or mountainous.

I know some argue that many transgender folk are just screwed up in the head, and this lowers the credibility of their claim, that they are a gender other than that suggested by genitalia. Hence they reject the notion of gender diversity.

When confronted with the evidence that ambiguous genitalia and chromosome irregularities are observed (albeit a rarity) a plank is knocked from their platform. The honest ones should concede defeat but many just dodge around the issue.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:42 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I know some argue that many transgender folk are just screwed up in the head...
One could argue that that transwomen are undeniably women, transmen undeniably men, and still only count up to two genders, i.e. those who move through society as women and those who move though society as men.

How do you propose to count to three?
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have a nephew like that. As an enthusiastic (Jesus talks to me) Christian he seems to think God can't make mistakes like that so a person is either male or female. A mountain of evidence about the occurrence of mixed up chromosomes, ambiguous genitalia and such, has no effect on his mindset.
So maybe ambiguity is not a "mistake".

(Also you just made me remember a dumb schoolyard taunt from childhood. It goes like "God made the mountains. God made the lakes. God made [target's name here]. We all make mistakes." It was cringey even for a kindergardener.)
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How many factual genders have we observed?
At least six.

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Old 19th November 2019, 06:54 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
One could argue that that transwomen are undeniably women, transmen undeniably men, and still only count up to two genders, i.e. those who move through society as women and those who move though society as men.

How do you propose to count to three?
Non-binary is a popular third gender category.

But we have to untangle the confusion between gender and sex. There are intersex people of course, but they aren't (necessarily) the same as non-binary (gender) people.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Would have to see if the question they were answering properly highlighted that gender was a separate thing to biological sex before passing judgment on the 38%
You obviously need to actually read the linked article, because the questions are clearly stated.

Click before comment.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
But we have to untangle the confusion between gender and sex. There are intersex people of course, but they aren't (necessarily) the same as non-binary (gender) people.
Which one are we talking about here?

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Old 19th November 2019, 06:59 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
One could argue that that transwomen are undeniably women, transmen undeniably men, and still only count up to two genders, i.e. those who move through society as women and those who move though society as men.

How do you propose to count to three?
There are many, many gender identities. Not just three.

And by the way, the correct term is "trans men" and "trans women", not "transmen" or "transwomen".
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Would have to see if the question they were answering properly highlighted that gender was a separate thing to biological sex before passing judgment on the 38%

Because it these things usually don't and it all gets scewed
The two questions were simply, do you agree or disagree with the following statements:
1) There are more than two genders
2) People should be referred to by the gender pronoun they identify

And possible answers were
Strongly disagree
Somewhat disagree
Neutral
Somewhat agree
Strongly agree
Don't know

IOW, No explanation was provided of what they meant by the word "gender".

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which one are we talking about here?

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Gender, I assume. However, how people responding to the survey interpreted the question, is unclear. IOW, do they distinguish between sex and gender in their own minds, or not?
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The two questions were simply, do you agree or disagree with the following statements:
1) There are more than two genders
2) People should be referred to by the gender pronoun they identify

And possible answers were
Strongly disagree
Somewhat disagree
Neutral
Somewhat agree
Strongly agree
Don't know

IOW, No explanation was provided of what they meant by the word "gender".
Don't spoon-feed him. Make him go read the article.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are many, many gender identities.
The affirmation in question was "There are more than two genders" but it did not specify gender identity. You can identify however you like (two-spirit, genderqueer, agender, etc.) but the just plain genderWP remains a "range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." Are Aussies wrong to see it this way, and if so, why?
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:58 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
At least six.

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theprestige asked about genders, and the video distinguishes sex from gender before going on to describe different intersex conditions.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:05 PM   #25
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It's a badly worded question. There are no genders and two sexes woul be the only sensible answer.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:25 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
theprestige asked about genders, and the video distinguishes sex from gender before going on to describe different intersex conditions.
That's true. In that case my answer is the same as the one I gave to d4m10n, which is "many". And it depends who you ask. A 2016 Australian survey recognised 33.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
At least six.

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Thanks for that arth, great video.

There are some folk who identify as being neither male or female, (not common though casebro), just neutral. In Sweden I read that a non gender form of address has been adopted.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:39 PM   #28
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I find that I don't actually have to understand something about people before I decide to treat them nicely. I don't know that I could define gender; I don't know that I actually care about gender at all. I'm just going to be polite to people. If they want to be called "she" or "they" or "he" it's not a dreadful burden on me to go along with it. Am I supposed to be interested in the whys and wherefores and the chromosomes and the nature vs nuture and the philosophical implications of categories of things? I guess I can add all that to the increasingly vast list of things I just can't be bothered with. I'd rather be kind than correct about everything.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for that arth, great video.
But it's about sexWP rather than genderWP.

Can Aussies not spot the difference?
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:52 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I find that I don't actually have to understand something about people before I decide to treat them nicely. I don't know that I could define gender; I don't know that I actually care about gender at all. I'm just going to be polite to people. If they want to be called "she" or "they" or "he" it's not a dreadful burden on me to go along with it. Am I supposed to be interested in the whys and wherefores and the chromosomes and the nature vs nuture and the philosophical implications of categories of things? I guess I can add all that to the increasingly vast list of things I just can't be bothered with. I'd rather be kind than correct about everything.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited for breach of rule 12

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Old 19th November 2019, 09:05 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Isn't gender (as opposed to sex) a relatively novel social construct?

ETA: John MoneyWP, circa 1955
However, it's not necessarily a sign what it refers to is recently invented. For example, the contemporary notions of homosexuality and the gay identity are novel, but it still refers to something real that existed prior.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
However, it's not necessarily a sign what it refers to is recently invented. For example, the contemporary notions of homosexuality and the gay identity are novel, but it still refers to something real that existed prior.
There's plenty of evidence that homosexuality has existed for millennia, transgenderism not so much.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
However, it's not necessarily a sign what it refers to is recently invented. For example, the contemporary notions of homosexuality and the gay identity are novel, but it still refers to something real that existed prior.
Fair point, I'm confident that masculine and feminine social roles predated 1955. My question would be when Australia (or other Anglophone nations) started to recognize a third social role: neither masculine nor feminine, nor a mere lack thereof, but something truly distinct. Judging by the survey in the OP, the answer may well be "Not yet."
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:27 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
But it's about sexWP rather than genderWP.

Can Aussies not spot the difference?
#26
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
#26
I'll take that as a no.

Intersex isn't a gender, obviously.

Many of the so-called genders you've linked are described in terms of male and female, which are also not genders.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The two questions were simply, do you agree or disagree with the following statements:
1) There are more than two genders
2)People should be referred to by the gender pronoun they identify
Much slippage to get to the point I wish to comment on.

I am in agreement in principle with the hilited statement. I have never had an opportunity to put in into practice. I have never had a person tell me the gender they identify with. I know that there are posters here who have much different life experiences than me. I would like to know if there are people who encounter this type of open self-identification enough for this to be a principle that needs to be stated.

Also, I read this as being pronouns that one would use when discussing the gender-identifying person with a third party, and not when one is in direct conversation with that person. The only pronoun that would arise in direct conversation is the gender-neutral word you.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:51 PM   #37
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'll take that as a no.

Intersex isn't a gender, obviously.

Many of the so-called genders you've linked are described in terms of male and female, which are also not genders.
Then why does the website of the Australian Sex Survey identify them as such?

Here's some more background reading for you:

http://thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-li...finitions.html

https://teentalk.ca/learn-about/gender-identity/

https://www.yourtango.com/2019324626...ntity-spectrum

https://apath.org/63-genders/

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...facebook-users

https://www.wattpad.com/341462536-co...te-list-of-all

It's only hard if you want to make it hard. No-one can agree on how many gender identities there are, because if someone looks at a list and says "hmm, no, I don't really feel like any of those describe me" then they can literally invent a new gender. There's no "master list". Gender is a spectrum.

It's only hard if you want to make it hard. Use peoples' pronouns correctly and make sure everybody knows what your pronouns are, and you'll get by.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:04 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You obviously need to actually read the linked article, because the questions are clearly stated.

Click before comment.
Unless I missed it, it doesn't.

It has a bit about sex and gender being different, but doesn't say whether this was in the material the survey takers read
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's true. In that case my answer is the same as the one I gave to d4m10n, which is "many". And it depends who you ask. A 2016 Australian survey recognised 33.
A heap of those are just the same as others in the list with slightly different wording

eg man and woman = cis man and cis women

So that is two gone for a start
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Unless I missed it, it doesn't.

It has a bit about sex and gender being different, but doesn't say whether this was in the material the survey takers read
You missed it.

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