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Old 19th November 2019, 10:12 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
A heap of those are just the same as others in the list with slightly different wording

eg man and woman = cis man and cis women

So that is two gone for a start
There is a lot of duplication on that list. Looks like whoever compiled it was more interested in a long list than in accurate list.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:15 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There is a lot of duplication on that list. Looks like whoever compiled it was more interested in a long list than in accurate list.
Like I said, there is no comprehensive list. There's just lists that various people have made, which disagree with each other in various ways.

The only think that is commonly agreed upon is that there is more than two.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:17 PM   #43
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In fact it didn't

I missed there is one of the questions is in the article

"Survey respondents were also asked whether they agreed with the statement: "People should be referred to by the gender pronoun they identify with ("he", "she", "they", etc.), even if it differs from the one assigned to them at birth."

Which is actually mixing up sex and gender
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Which doesn't make it clear that sex and gender are different
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Like I said, there is no comprehensive list. There's just lists that various people have made, which disagree with each other in various ways.

The only think that is commonly agreed upon is that there is more than two.
Ok, if that is your point then I am fine with that.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Which doesn't make it clear that sex and gender are different
It wasn't asking that question. It was asking if you agree that there are more than two genders, and if you agree that people should refer to others by their pronouns.

As I keep saying, this isn't hard unless you want it to be.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
There's plenty of evidence that homosexuality has existed for millennia, transgenderism not so much.
That really depends on what you mean by "transgenderism." There have been (and still are) lots of cultures around the world that recognize more (and sometimes fewer) genders than the two typically recognized in modern "western" culture (or however you want to label it). That's a well-documented fact. If you want to argue that doesn't technically count as trans because they don't typically involve transitioning between binary genders, I guess I could understand that point (although I don't agree with it, because it seems disingenuous and relies on oversimplifying the issue to a ridiculous degree), but if you're trying to argue that no one ever identified as anything besides whatever their culture dictated based on genitals before 100 years ago or so, that's flat out wrong.

Just like homosexuality has presented itself in numerous ways across history and cultures, gender identity and expressions of it have varied as well.

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Old 19th November 2019, 10:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It wasn't asking that question. It was asking if you agree that there are more than two genders, and if you agree that people should refer to others by their pronouns.

As I keep saying, this isn't hard unless you want it to be.

My initial point was whether the thing clarified the difference between sex and gender first.

I think you know why, but are just being purposefully not understanding why.

Because quite a lot of people (especially older people) still think they are interchangeable and would have answered the questions based on gender meaning biological sex.

So some of the ones saying there are only 2 are meaning biological sexes.

Which is true

Which means they aren't stupid, apart from the idiots doing the survey did it poorly

Especially when the question I posted actually mixes them together.

But as I say

I think you know this
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:42 PM   #49
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Here's more, from Wikipedia.

Criticism of the "sex difference" versus "gender difference" distinction

Quote:
The current distinction between the terms sex difference versus gender difference has been criticized as misleading and counterproductive. These terms suggest that the behavior of an individual can be partitioned into separate biological and cultural factors. (However, behavioral differences between individuals can be statistically partitioned, as studied by behavioral genetics.) Instead, all behaviors are phenotypes—a complex interweaving of both nature and nurture.[41]

Diane Halpern, in her book Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities, argued problems with sex vs. gender terminology: "I cannot argue (in this book) that nature and nurture are inseparable and then... use different terms to refer to each class of variables. The ...biological manifestations of sex are confounded with psychosocial variables.... The use of different terms to label these two types of contributions to human existence seemed inappropriate in light of the biopsychosocial position I have taken." She quotes Steven Pinker's summary of the problems with the terms sex and gender: "Part of it is a new prissiness -- many people today are as squeamish about sexual dimorphism as the Victorians were about sex. But part of it is a limitation of the English language. The word 'sex' refers ambiguously to copulation and to sexual dimorphism..."[42] Richard Lippa writes in Gender, Nature and Nurture that "Some researchers have argued that the word sex should be used to refer to (biological differences), whereas the word gender should be used to refer to (cultural differences). However, it is not at all clear the degree to which the differences between males and females are due to biological factors versus learned and cultural factors. Furthermore, indiscriminate use of the word gender tends to obscure the distinction between two different topics: (a) differences between males and females, and (b) individual differences in maleness and femaleness that occur within each sex."[43]

It has been suggested that more useful distinctions to make would be whether a behavioral difference between the sexes is first due to an evolved adaptation, then, if so, whether the adaptation is sexually dimorphic (different) or sexually monomorphic (the same in both sexes). The term sex difference could then be re-defined as between-sex differences that are manifestations of a sexually dimorphic adaptation (which is how many scientists use the term),[44][45] while the term gender difference could be re-defined as due to differential socialization between the sexes of a monomorphic adaptation or byproduct. For example, greater male propensity toward physical aggression and risk taking would be termed a "sex difference;" the generally longer head hair length of females would be termed a "gender difference."[46]
If you think that it is important to make it clear that sex and gender are different, actually doing it is a bit more complicated than that. Which is why the video I posted is still relevant, even if it wasn't a direct answer to the question that was asked.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:48 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
My initial point was whether the thing clarified the difference between sex and gender first.

I think you know why, but are just being purposefully not understanding why.

Because quite a lot of people (especially older people) still think they are interchangeable and would have answered the questions based on gender meaning biological sex.
Older people would tell you that "gender" is a linguistic term and refers to nouns, not people. But you're wrong. I hear young people, even young trans and nonbinary people, using the words interchangeably all the time.

What matters is how the words are used, not how they are defined. The questions were not ambiguous. Are there more than two genders? and Should we refer to people by their pronouns? Very clear.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So some of the ones saying there are only 2 are meaning biological sexes.

Which is true
Uh, no it isn't. That's what the video I posted was all about. There are also more than two biological sexes.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:56 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Older people would tell you that "gender" is a linguistic term and refers to nouns, not people. But you're wrong. I hear young people, even young trans and nonbinary people, using the words interchangeably all the time.

What matters is how the words are used, not how they are defined. The questions were not ambiguous. Are there more than two genders? and Should we refer to people by their pronouns? Very clear.

Uh, no it isn't. That's what the video I posted was all about. There are also more than two biological sexes.

That is why I used the word especially

And it is 2019 Australia not 19th century Britain.

The amount of average Aussies who still think gender refers to language who are still alive would be tiny, even if they own a computer.

It has been used on forms as a replacement sex, for at least 40 years

Yes there are intersex.

The vast majority the parents pick the bits to keep and the even rarer ones they can't, is getting a bit pedantic on a public survey to nit pick over
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:05 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here's more, from Wikipedia.

Criticism of the "sex difference" versus "gender difference" distinction

If you think that it is important to make it clear that sex and gender are different, actually doing it is a bit more complicated than that. Which is why the video I posted is still relevant, even if it wasn't a direct answer to the question that was asked.
It is important if you want an accurate survey result.

But agree it isn't an easy thing to word on a basic survey
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:10 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'll take that as a no.

Intersex isn't a gender, obviously.

Many of the so-called genders you've linked are described in terms of male and female, which are also not genders.
I think male and female are genders as well as, obviously, biological sexes.

If you ask me what my sex is, I would answer male. If you asked me what my gender is, the answer would be the same. (A gender abolitionist or gender critical feminist might answer that gender isn't really a thing; there is only sex. But that's not my position.)
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:17 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It is important if you want an accurate survey result.
The survey isn't asking what you are demanding it to ask! It wasn't designed to ask what you are demanding it to ask.

It's a simple survey. Tell me if you agree or disagree. Is there more than one gender? Should we refer to people by their pronouns?

Why are you trying to make it complicated?
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:27 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The survey isn't asking what you are demanding it to ask! It wasn't designed to ask what you are demanding it to ask.

It's a simple survey. Tell me if you agree or disagree. Is there more than one gender? Should we refer to people by their pronouns?

Why are you trying to make it complicated?
Because it doesn't explain what they mean by gender to who may not know.

Maybe they should have added a first question to the survey.

Do you think gender and biological sex are different?

Then they can throw out all the ones that say no, or at least be aware how many people don't know the difference.

But no

You would rather slag off people who still think they are the same as they don't actually care. Which is a hell of a lot of people in the later
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 19th November 2019 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:40 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Because it doesn't explain what they mean by gender to who may not know.

Maybe they should have added a first question to the survey.

Do you think gender and biological sex are different?

Then they can throw out all the ones that say no, or at least be aware how many people don't know the difference.

But no

You would rather slag off people who still think they are the same as they don't actually care. Which is a hell of a lot of people in the later
I'm not "slagging off" any damn people. Get the **** off your high horse.

There is clearly very little confusion about what the survey is asking. Of the 54,000 people who responded, only 2% answered "don't know" to the first question, and 3% to the second. In terms of statistics, that's negligible. You're making it harder than it really is. Why?
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm not "slagging off" any damn people. Get the **** off your high horse.

There is clearly very little confusion about what the survey is asking. Of the 54,000 people who responded, only 2% answered "don't know" to the first question, and 3% to the second. In terms of statistics, that's negligible. You're making it harder than it really is. Why?
Yes. Because the ones answering on the assumption it meant sex thought they did know?

Fine

You pretend this survey is an amazingly accurate reflection on actual gender opinions of the public.... A real eye opener even.

And I will just know it is crap.
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:49 PM   #58
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"Yes" is not an answer to "Why?"
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:57 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Yes" is not an answer to "Why?"
Because the results are utterly unreliable.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:19 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Because the results are utterly unreliable.
Well. I will give you that it's a self-selected survey representing the opinions of what ultimately is not a large proportion of the Australian population, which covered a range of social attitudes. The article in the OP is one of a series of articles on the ABC website analysing the results of the survey.

But "utterly unreliable"? I think you are still demanding of it something that it wasn't designed to do.

Here's more about the Australia Talks National Survey project. It's not something that was just slapped together. It's reliable enough for the purpose it was designed for. It was designed by a group of data scientists and social scientists, in collaboration from a group of academics and the University of Melbourne. Perhaps you should take up your concerns with them.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 12
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove rule 12 breach
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:16 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think male and female are genders as well as, obviously, biological sexes.
I think we tear down the sex / gender distinction at our own peril.

When I hear or use the word sexWP, I mean a collection of observable biological characteristics, such as whether one produces ova or sperm and whether one carries a Y chromosome. There are all sorts of (admittedly rare) intermediate conditions falling between the two sexes, such as CAIS.

When I hear or use the word genderWP, I mean a "range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." I do not mean a range of characteristics differentiating between masculinity, femininity, and [THIRD WAY OF PRESENTING OR PERCEIVING ONESELF], but then I wasn't raised in Navajo culture or Native Hawaiian culture or another culture with a well established and widely understood third gender. (Then again, neither were the respondents of the Australia Talks National Survey project.)
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:46 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Isn't gender (as opposed to sex) a relatively novel social construct?

ETA: John MoneyWP, circa 1955
Nope, there is millennia of history of it across many cultures. It is just westerners who are finally catching on. Kind of like the idea that homosexuality is not a moral failure or insanity.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:49 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re the highlighted: I don't think it's a fact that can be observed is it?
Well I guess we can call all anthropology and such as lacking in fact as well. Of course then any counters are also lacking fact.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:52 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think we tear down the sex / gender distinction at our own peril.

When I hear or use the word sexWP, I mean a collection of observable biological characteristics, such as whether one produces ova or sperm and whether one carries a Y chromosome. There are all sorts of (admittedly rare) intermediate conditions falling between the two sexes, such as CAIS.

When I hear or use the word genderWP, I mean a "range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." I do not mean a range of characteristics differentiating between masculinity, femininity, and [THIRD WAY OF PRESENTING OR PERCEIVING ONESELF], but then I wasn't raised in Navajo culture or Native Hawaiian culture or another culture with a well established and widely understood third gender. (Then again, neither were the respondents of the Australia Talks National Survey project.)
But masculinity-feminity is its own spectrum, of behavior. I know a lot of masculine women and feminine men, but I wouldn't say their gender isn't female and male respectively. A very femme gay man is still male sex and male gendered, even if he had the mannerisms stereotypically assumed to be female.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:53 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to conform with moderated post
.
And normal males uncomfortable taking their clothes off around gay males is also a real thing and they need their views accepted too.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:55 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
There's plenty of evidence that homosexuality has existed for millennia, transgenderism not so much.
Just like animals only started having gay sex recently, you look further back there is simply no evidence of it.

Or you know you could accept the actual evidence there is from the past. Like the cultures with more than two genders.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:55 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And normal males uncomfortable taking their clothes off around gay males is also a real thing and they need their views accepted too.
"You must tolerate the intolerant" isn't really the baffling paradox some people like to pretend it is.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:02 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think we tear down the sex / gender distinction at our own peril.

When I hear or use the word sexWP, I mean a collection of observable biological characteristics, such as whether one produces ova or sperm and whether one carries a Y chromosome. There are all sorts of (admittedly rare) intermediate conditions falling between the two sexes, such as CAIS.

When I hear or use the word genderWP, I mean a "range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." I do not mean a range of characteristics differentiating between masculinity, femininity, and [THIRD WAY OF PRESENTING OR PERCEIVING ONESELF], but then I wasn't raised in Navajo culture or Native Hawaiian culture or another culture with a well established and widely understood third gender. (Then again, neither were the respondents of the Australia Talks National Survey project.)
How does this invalidate the existence of more than two genders in those and other cultures as there can not be more than two genders in yours? What makes those people so different from you that your hard gender binary is more true than their non binary genders?
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:11 AM   #70
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Everyone is equal yet striving desperately to be different. Go figure.

Be you, do you. But having to have 74,000 different genders? To me it's like the guy that says he's Italian because his great-great grandmother was from Italy. "See, I'm different!" Again, be yourself and do what makes you happy. But the labels are mostly there to make people feel "special." This is heightened by social media as well, where everyone is wanting to be seen, to get likes, etc.

We've tried for a long time to try to remove the labels of race, for instance. You don't want to be called "a black man", just "a man." We now call a "mailman" a "mail carrier." There are no more stewardesses, they are "flight attendants." And yet we are now sticking NEW labels on people?
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:20 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Everyone is equal yet striving desperately to be different. Go figure.

Be you, do you. But having to have 74,000 different genders? To me it's like the guy that says he's Italian because his great-great grandmother was from Italy. "See, I'm different!" Again, be yourself and do what makes you happy. But the labels are mostly there to make people feel "special." This is heightened by social media as well, where everyone is wanting to be seen, to get likes, etc.

We've tried for a long time to try to remove the labels of race, for instance. You don't want to be called "a black man", just "a man." We now call a "mailman" a "mail carrier." There are no more stewardesses, they are "flight attendants." And yet we are now sticking NEW labels on people?
Who cares what categories and labels people want to put themselves into? As long as we're treating everybody properly do the labels matter? I'm going to hold the door for someone walking up as I'm going through it whether they consider themselves male, female, neutral, Klingon, or the sedevacantist pope.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:23 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But masculinity-feminity is its own spectrum, of behavior.
Of course, yes. That said, on a greyscale palette ranging from black to white, there are still only two tubes of paint.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A very femme gay man is still male sex and male gendered...
I would say he is cisgendered, if he identifies and presents as a man. Male is a term denoting sex, not gender.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How does this invalidate the existence of more than two genders in those and other cultures...
It does not, however, the Australia Talks National Survey was (presumably) asking about Australian culture in particular.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What makes those people so different from you that your hard gender binary is more true than their non binary genders?
I don't believe I've invoked the term binary, certainly not approvingly. I think the analogy to a color spectrum is fairly apt. Even if it turns out we are doing pointillism with ink.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I keep saying, this isn't hard unless you want it to be.
As I keep saying, it isn't nearly as easy as you want it to be. The original proposition "There are more than two genders" admits of several distinct interpretations:
  1. There are more than two sexes
  2. There are more than two gender identitiesWP
  3. There are more than two forms of gender expressionWP
  4. There are more than two basic sets of social expectations associated with sex
I don't know which of these interpretations a typical Aussie would tend to choose, without further context. I get the sense that you strongly prefer the second one, and yes, that does make it rather easy; there are as many subjective senses of self as people care to invent.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:24 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
Everyone is equal yet striving desperately to be different. Go figure.

Be you, do you. But having to have 74,000 different genders? To me it's like the guy that says he's Italian because his great-great grandmother was from Italy. "See, I'm different!" Again, be yourself and do what makes you happy. But the labels are mostly there to make people feel "special." This is heightened by social media as well, where everyone is wanting to be seen, to get likes, etc.

We've tried for a long time to try to remove the labels of race, for instance. You don't want to be called "a black man", just "a man." We now call a "mailman" a "mail carrier." There are no more stewardesses, they are "flight attendants." And yet we are now sticking NEW labels on people?
This. And if it can't be agreed even if in generalities how many genders there are, it sounds a little like people just making things up on the fly. From the first line in the Wiki quote a few posts up:

"The current distinction between the terms sex difference versus gender difference has been criticized as misleading and counterproductive."

On the proverbial head. I don't think the issue is so much acceptance, as clarifying the terminology. Dropping 'gender' as the descriptor would be a great start.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:27 AM   #74
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The only context I'm familiar with the term "gender" being used to mean something precise is in language, like how the Romance language words have gender. And even there is basically "there are two categories, these items fall into this one, others into that one, some into neither, some into both".
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:30 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?
Fact? How many genders are there, what are they, and what's the observation?

Quote:
Something does not have to be common for the evidence of its existence to be overwhelming or mountainous.

I know some argue that many transgender folk are just screwed up in the head
Wait a minute. You're conflating two things. The existence of transgender doesn't mean there are extra genders.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are many, many gender identities. Not just three.
People can identify as whatever they want. That wasn't the question.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I find that I don't actually have to understand something about people before I decide to treat them nicely.
Absolutely true.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:40 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who cares what categories and labels people want to put themselves into? As long as we're treating everybody properly do the labels matter? I'm going to hold the door for someone walking up as I'm going through it whether they consider themselves male, female, neutral, Klingon, or the sedevacantist pope.
I agree, and that was my point. People are labeling themselves to be different. There is no actual "use" for these labels, though. You answer your sex at a doctor's office because males and females sometimes require different medical care. But your gender is not really a useful label, other than to differentiate you from the crowd. I'm going to treat everyone the same regardless, always have, always will.
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:48 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I look at something like this with incredulity. That some folk just deny the undeniable because to not do so challenges their mindset.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...urvey/11714302




How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?
Kind of depends on what they mean.

Is it denying the obvious to say, "There are only two genders but some folks are on a spectrum between them"?
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:52 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Kind of depends on what they mean.

Is it denying the obvious to say, "There are only two genders but some folks are on a spectrum between them"?
But that doesn't help distinguish gender from sex, because we can say the same thing about sex.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:04 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And normal males uncomfortable taking their clothes off around gay males is also a real thing and they need their views accepted too.
So because some men are homophobic women have no right to privacy when they're changing their clothes?
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:10 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
So because some men are homophobic women have no right to privacy when they're changing their clothes?
(I think that was sarcasm.)
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