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Old 20th November 2019, 09:11 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
So because some men are homophobic women have no right to privacy when they're changing their clothes?
Great moving goalposts!

I mean apparently they don't because they are already forced to change in front of the butch queer women and if that makes them uncomfortable they are SOL.

Of course a simple solution would be to stop building these locker rooms with out stalls in the first place, and that then makes it easy to change with out anyone seeing you.

But yes clearly having no right to privacy against homosexuals is the standard for all men now as well or something. I guess it really opens up homosexual peeping toms as there is no right to privacy against homosexuals or something.

The question is what biases are you trying to cater to, clearly you think catering to homo-phobia is bad but catering to trans-phobia is good. But can we get a clear gauge on how I can discriminate and get your seal of approval on it?
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:15 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
(I think that was sarcasm.)
More reducto ad absurdem by just changing the form of bigotry to one that fewer people here endorse. But apparently men have no right to privacy against gay men now so new hidden camera business opportunities?
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:15 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Great moving goalposts!

I mean apparently they don't because they are already forced to change in front of the butch queer women and if that makes them uncomfortable they are SOL.

Of course a simple solution would be to stop building these locker rooms with out stalls in the first place, and that then makes it easy to change with out anyone seeing you.

But yes clearly having no right to privacy against homosexuals is the standard for all men now as well or something. I guess it really opens up homosexual peeping toms as there is no right to privacy against homosexuals or something.

The question is what biases are you trying to cater to, clearly you think catering to homo-phobia is bad but catering to trans-phobia is good. But can we get a clear gauge on how I can discriminate and get your seal of approval on it?
So you seriously think it's transphobia for women not to want to take their clothes off in front of men.

This is a Handmaid's Tale level of misogyny, and its not coming from the religious right where we expected it, but from the supposedly liberal left.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:20 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
More reducto ad absurdem by just changing the form of bigotry to one that fewer people here endorse. But apparently men have no right to privacy against gay men now so new hidden camera business opportunities?
Apparently the dominant cultural taboo is seeing the bodies of the opposite sex, regardless of whether there is any sexual interest whatsoever. So straight women do not object to the possibility of being ogled by lecherous lesbians in the lockerroom, but fear the presence of a gay man in there ignoring them. This seems odd to me, but then so much seems odd I can't even begin to fathom people.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:25 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
So you seriously think it's transphobia for women not to want to take their clothes off in front of men.
Well given that you are labeling trans women as men in this, yep that seems to hit trans phobia dead on.

As for non binary individuals and locker rooms, that has not been a huge issue. Has any male sexed non binary individual insisted on using the women's locker room? That does not fit with the non binary individuals I know.

We really need some new version of Godwin's law, that any discussion of trans people or gender non binary will inevitably end up with people complaining about trans women using the women's bathroom.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:26 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Apparently the dominant cultural taboo is seeing the bodies of the opposite sex, regardless of whether there is any sexual interest whatsoever. So straight women do not object to the possibility of being ogled by lecherous lesbians in the lockerroom, but fear the presence of a gay man in there ignoring them. This seems odd to me, but then so much seems odd I can't even begin to fathom people.
It seems odd to you because you don't respect the notion of women having the right to set their own boundaries. Again, misogyny.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:28 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well given that you are labeling trans women as men in this, yep that seems to hit trans phobia dead on.

As for non binary individuals and locker rooms, that has not been a huge issue. Has any male sexed non binary individual insisted on using the women's locker room? That does not fit with the non binary individuals I know.

We really need some new version of Godwin's law, that any discussion of trans people or gender non binary will inevitably end up with people complaining about trans women using the women's bathroom.
Transwomen are biological males, and if that is transphobia then reality is transphobia.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:28 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Apparently the dominant cultural taboo is seeing the bodies of the opposite sex, regardless of whether there is any sexual interest whatsoever. So straight women do not object to the possibility of being ogled by lecherous lesbians in the lockerroom, but fear the presence of a gay man in there ignoring them. This seems odd to me, but then so much seems odd I can't even begin to fathom people.
And how did this get to trans women in locker rooms when it started about if non binary people exist?
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:29 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Transwomen are biological males, and if that is transphobia then reality is transphobia.
Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:30 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And how did this get to trans women in locker rooms when it started about if non binary people exist?
Bleedover from a thread on the same topic.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:33 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Bleedover from a thread on the same topic.
No I am not at all sure on that, as every thread not focused solely on cis gender issues seems to go there.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:34 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
It seems odd to you because you don't respect the notion of women having the right to set their own boundaries. Again, misogyny.
Again, I don't accept your premise that transwomen are not women, so from my perspective you are attempting to discriminate against one subset of women by granting superior rights to another subset of women. Objecting to that isn't misogyny as both the victims and oppressors are women.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:34 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."
I think it is pretty easy to say people who call trans women men are transphobic. That is a real easy and low bar right there.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:36 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."
And the reality is that transwomen are not women. Transwomen are a type of man.

This nonsense really is the creationism of the left.
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:43 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
And the reality is that transwomen are not women. Transwomen are a type of man.

This nonsense really is the creationism of the left.
This may startle and amaze you, but some people not only disagree with your opinion but -- you should sit down for this part-- aren't going to change their minds just because you tell them what "reality is"!
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:43 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Transwomen are a type of man.
I suspect that what you mean by this is that people who have transitioned from male to female retain enough sexual characteristics of males to count as male, in your understanding. Hard to say, though, since "man" is a social role in addition to a biological category. May I safely assume you're focusing on sex (biological features) rather than gender (social expectations and presentations)?
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Old 20th November 2019, 09:47 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I suspect that what you mean by this is that people who have transitioned from male to female retain enough sexual characteristics of males to count as male, in your understanding. Hard to say, though, since "man" is a social role in addition to a biological category. May I safely assume you're focusing on sex (biological features) rather than gender (social expectations and presentations)?
Reads much more as straight up rejection that trans women exist.
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Old 20th November 2019, 10:09 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Reads much more as straight up rejection that trans women exist.
If you want to be uncharitable, I suppose so.
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Old 20th November 2019, 10:16 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I think it is pretty easy to say people who call trans women men are transphobic. That is a real easy and low bar right there.
Maybe so. Or maybe many people just do not know, or care.

For anyone with whom I have a reasonably close relationship I will accept their gender identity without pause. This is a very small group of people.

For all the billions of strangers out there I pay very little attention. If, at a short glance, a person appears to dress and appear in superficial physical ways as a woman then they are a woman to me, and if I find it necessary to refer to them in any way I will refer to them as a woman. Likewise a stranger with the general appearance of a man. If a person's appearance in indeterminate then they are indeterminate. If any stranger actually identifies as something other than their physical appearance suggests I just plain don't care.
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Old 20th November 2019, 10:22 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Maybe so. Or maybe many people just do not know, or care.

For anyone with whom I have a reasonably close relationship I will accept their gender identity without pause. This is a very small group of people.

For all the billions of strangers out there I pay very little attention. If, at a short glance, a person appears to dress and appear in superficial physical ways as a woman then they are a woman to me, and if I find it necessary to refer to them in any way I will refer to them as a woman. Likewise a stranger with the general appearance of a man. If a person's appearance in indeterminate then they are indeterminate. If any stranger actually identifies as something other than their physical appearance suggests I just plain don't care.
And that has absolutely nothing to do with the context of specifically referring to all trans women as men, as was done previously.
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Old 20th November 2019, 10:42 AM   #101
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I'm confused. Are transgenders supposed to be the third (and fourth?) factual gender Thor2 says we've observed?
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Old 20th November 2019, 10:49 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm confused. Are transgenders supposed to be the third (and fourth?) factual gender Thor2 says we've observed?
No. People with a bias against trans women just bring it into other discussions.
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Old 20th November 2019, 10:52 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No. People with a bias against trans women just bring it into other discussions.
So what is the third gender which is not defined in terms of either masculinity or femininity?
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Old 20th November 2019, 10:55 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
So what is the third gender which is not defined in terms of either masculinity or femininity?
Depends on what non binary gender you are talking about. It is a hugely broad and diverse group of people, who only share the trait of rejecting man or woman as a label.
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:01 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Depends on what non binary gender you are talking about. It is a hugely broad and diverse group of people, who only share the trait of rejecting man or woman as a label.
I admire those who reject the gender binary, as well as masculine and feminine social norms, whatever label they choose for themselves. I'm still not seeing a third set of norms, though.
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:04 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
So what is the third gender which is not defined in terms of either masculinity or femininity?
I think it is the "None of the above" option
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:05 AM   #107
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Rejecting a gendered label is not the same as observing a third factual gender.
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:08 AM   #108
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Mod Warning Knock off the personalisation, please.
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:10 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And how did this get to trans women in locker rooms when it started about if non binary people exist?
Because of course it does.


Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If you want to be uncharitable, I suppose so.
Nah, nah. This has nothing to do with the principle of charity; it's simply a matter of being aware of a poster's body of work.
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:12 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Because of course it does.



Nah, nah. This has nothing to do with the principle of charity; it's simply a matter of being aware of a poster's body of work.
How many factual genders have we observed?
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:19 AM   #111
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I mean, it's not like humans have a three-phase, three-gender procreative cycle.

We could imagine a Space Alien with three genders: One that produces the egg, one that produces the sperm, and one that receives egg and sperm together and gestates them. Three genders. And we could imagine an Alien civilization with a tripartite social structure, organized around social constructs arising from the underlying biological facts of having three genders for procreation.

But obviously that doesn't describe human biology or society at all. Intersex conditions are just rare anomalies in the normal expression of the two-gender procreative system that has evolved in humans (and has evolved in human society). They're not actually additional genders in any meaningful sense.
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:22 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that has absolutely nothing to do with the context of specifically referring to all trans women as men, as was done previously.
I will accept that. I will therefore let my post stand on its own unrelated to your post that I quoted. Too late to edit to remove your quote. I apologize.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:07 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How many factual genders have we observed?
I don't feel like we are taking this question seriously enough. Let me put together a hypothetical for consideration.

Famed anthropologist Margaret Napoleon Mead-Chagnon returns from a years-long expedition into the inaccessible depths of hitherto uncharted territories, where she studied the mysterious tribe of Trimerís people. She observes that, among adults, there are three well-defined social roles: men are expected to behave in masculine ways, women are expected to behave in feminine ways, and the third gender is expected to behave in ways which may most easily be described as stoic. For example, men are expected to be somewhat frank when it comes to expressing their opinions, women are expected to be relatively demure and deferential, third gender individuals are expected to hold their own counsel unless persuaded by men and women alike to hold forth. Men are expected to hunt, women are expected to gather, third gender individuals are expected to study ancient lore. Men are expected to cover their loins, women their loins and breasts, third gender individuals are expected to wear flowing robes which conceal most noticable features of biological sex. Men are expected to resolve their differences with shouting and perhaps violence, women are expected to resolve their differences with gossip and social networking, third gender individuals are expected to ratiocinate together until they find some mutually agreeable way to balance their respective utility functions. Men are expected to initiate courtship, women are expected to be coy but receptive, third gender individuals are expected to abstain from romantic entanglements altogether. Many other sets of three-way social norms may be adduced, these are only a few.

In the case of the Trimerís people, I’d say we have reasonably strong evidence that their culture runs on a three gender model of social norms and relations. I would not say this is true of Australia (at least not yet) and as primary evidence I would cite the responses to the first survey question mentioned in the OP.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:08 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Famed anthropologist Margaret Napoleon Mead-Chagnon returns from a years-long expedition into the inaccessible depths of hitherto uncharted territories, where she studied the mysterious tribe of Trimerís people. She observes that, among adults, there are three well-defined social roles: men are expected to behave in masculine ways, women are expected to behave in feminine ways, and the third gender is expected to behave in ways which may most easily be described as stoic.
Wait, wait. Back up. What's this third gender?
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:11 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait, wait. Back up. What's this third gender?
I described it but did not give it a name.

Can you state your question differently?
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:18 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I described it but did not give it a name.

Can you state your question differently?
Yes: how do you determine who's a member of this third gender? You said that those of this third gender, let's call it Z, are expected to act in a certain way. How do you know who's a Z?
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:20 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I described it but did not give it a name.

Can you state your question differently?
In the example given I'd call it "the clergy". It all read like a code of behavior for a specific profession rather than a separate gender identity.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:28 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How do you know who's a Z?
They rarely ever cried as babies and are in the top percentile in abstract reasoning skills.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In the example given I'd call it "the clergy". It all read like a code of behavior for a specific profession rather than a separate gender identity.
Gender *is* a code of behaviour assigned to us based on sex. You can spot a third gender whenever some set of people is essentially exempted from the codes of behaviour governing masculinity and femininity.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:30 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Gender *is* a code of behaviour assigned to us based on sex. You can spot a third gender whenever some set of people is essentially exempted from the codes of behaviour governing masculinity and femininity.
...so would a femme gay guy have a female gender? And a butch woman would be male gender? That doesn't sound right.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:32 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
They rarely ever cried as babies and are in the top percentile in abstract reasoning skills.
That's not what a gender is. You can't just pick any subgroup in a population and call it a gender.
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