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Old 20th November 2019, 12:32 PM   #121
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
They rarely ever cried as babies and are in the top percentile in abstract reasoning skills.

Gender *is* a code of behaviour assigned to us based on sex. You can spot a third gender whenever some set of people is essentially exempted from the codes of behaviour governing masculinity and femininity.
Here you go here are a selection of other genders from around the world. Click on the map to see the variety of ways these have been expressed.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/c...rits_map-html/
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:33 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And how did this get to trans women in locker rooms when it started about if non binary people exist?
Was thinking the same thing

Fixation of the few I think
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:43 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I suspect that what you mean by this is that people who have transitioned from male to female retain enough sexual characteristics of males to count as male, in your understanding. Hard to say, though, since "man" is a social role in addition to a biological category. May I safely assume you're focusing on sex (biological features) rather than gender (social expectations and presentations)?
Yes, I said that right at the start - there are two sexes and no genders because sex is a biological reality and gender is just made up. And as we can see clearly much of the ideology surrounding gender is blatantly misogynistic, being merely a tool to override any sex based protections for women.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:51 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here you go here are a selection of other genders from around the world. Click on the map to see the variety of ways these have been expressed.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/c...rits_map-html/
My perspective might be too Eurocentric or something, but most of these appear to be 'men who take on feminine roles' and vice versa. So these 'other' genders still seem to exist on the masculine-feminine spectrum, rather than adding an extra dimension to 'genderedness'.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:52 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Yes, I said that right at the start - there are two sexes and no genders because sex is a biological reality and gender is just made up. And as we can see clearly much of the ideology surrounding gender is blatantly misogynistic, being merely a tool to override any sex based protections for women.
Well three sexes, you have to lump all the freaks who can never fill a reproductive roll into some grouping. Like post menopausal women have stopped being women by hard biological definitions. Otherwise intersex conditions mess up the nice organized system.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:54 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
My perspective might be too Eurocentric or something, but most of these appear to be 'men who take on feminine roles' and vice versa. So these 'other' genders still seem to exist on the masculine-feminine spectrum, rather than adding an extra dimension to 'genderedness'.
Why does making gender a vector instead of a spectrum the only way that could make a third gender valid?
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:09 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why does making gender a vector instead of a spectrum the only way that could make a third gender valid?
It isn't. It's just that when I hear 'third gender', I think of something that isn't masculine or feminine, rather than something that is a bit of both.
But it appears to me 'third gender' is just a strictly codified and culturally accepted way to escape from reductive gender roles for people who do not occupy the extremes of the masculinity-femininity spectrum. But still every bit as governed by rules and convention as the traditional man and woman roles.
I'm all for accepting all the ways in which people don't conform to gender roles, and accepting that gender is a spectrum, but I'm not sure that codifying separate genders with accompanying gender roles for every possible deviation is something we need in an open and pluriform society.
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:11 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Yes, I said that right at the start - there are two sexes and no genders because sex is a biological reality and gender is just made up. And as we can see clearly much of the ideology surrounding gender is blatantly misogynistic, being merely a tool to override any sex based protections for women.
Lol

WTF?

So Trans men are women being misogynistic?
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:12 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why does making gender a vector instead of a spectrum the only way that could make a third gender valid?
Stipulate a complementary arrangement of binary pairs. But each of the two binary options has a wide range of expressions. Practically, this forms a continuum. Most people fall into a complementary range towards one end or the other. Some people have a very extreme expression, very close to one end or the other. Some people have a very mild or ambiguous expression, closer to the middle, but also falling outside the ideal complementary range for pairing.

That's a very different from a complementary arrangement of trinary trios.
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:16 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here you go here are a selection of other genders from around the world. Click on the map to see the variety of ways these have been expressed.



http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/c...rits_map-html/
That's a really cool map, but it doesn't really tell us how many sets of gender norms are generally recognized by (non-Aboriginal) Australians.

For that matter, it doesn't really tell us whether the sistergirls of the Tiwi Islands are held to something distinct from feminine social norms, within their own cultural milieu, but it's certainly an interesting topic for further inquiry.
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:18 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That's a really cool map, but it doesn't really tell us how many sets of gender norms are generally recognized by (non-Aboriginal) Australians.

For that matter, it doesn't really tell us whether the sistergirls of the Tiwi Islands are held to something distinct from feminine social norms, within their own cultural milieu, but it's certainly an interesting topic for further inquiry.
I think we're getting confused as to what gender means, here. What did you mean by it, exactly?
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:22 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's not what a gender is. You can't just pick any subgroup in a population and call it a gender.
As the master of the hypothetical, I can do anything within the bounds of reason and imagination. If a society chose to exempt some group from the norms of both masculinity and femininity, what would you call it other than a third gender?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think we're getting confused as to what gender means, here. What did you mean by it, exactly?
See post 62 for what I nearly always mean by gender.
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:48 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Lol

WTF?

So Trans men are women being misogynistic?
Why, you think there's no such thing as internalised misogyny?

Not that I am saying transmen necessarily have it, I'm just asking about your "lol, wtf" reaction to my post.
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:54 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Apparently the dominant cultural taboo is seeing the bodies of the opposite sex, regardless of whether there is any sexual interest whatsoever. So straight women do not object to the possibility of being ogled by lecherous lesbians in the lockerroom, but fear the presence of a gay man in there ignoring them. This seems odd to me, but then so much seems odd I can't even begin to fathom people.
It really does seen to always end up being which set of dangly bits people have.

Personally unless I want to use someone's dangly bits I don't care which set of dangly bits they have or if they have dangly bits at all.
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:56 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
And the reality is that transwomen are not women. Transwomen are a type of man.



This nonsense really is the creationism of the left.
What on earth has it got to do with "the left"?
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:59 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm confused. Are transgenders supposed to be the third (and fourth?) factual gender Thor2 says we've observed?
Nope. Some of us have gone down the wrong rabbit hole in this thread! We got confused, sorry.
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Old 20th November 2019, 02:01 PM   #137
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Could I just interject a plea that the other thread *stay* in the other thread? I've completely given up on it, and I really don't want to see this thread go down the same road.
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Old 20th November 2019, 02:01 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What on earth has it got to do with "the left"?
Good point actually, a lot of the people pushing this particular form of biology denial are very right wing, eg Bruce Jenner.
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Old 20th November 2019, 02:09 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Depends on what non binary gender you are talking about. It is a hugely broad and diverse group of people, who only share the trait of rejecting man or woman as a label.
This is where and what I have to admit I struggle to understand.

As a gay man in the culture I grew up in a gay man wasn't considered a "real" man. So I think you could say being a gay man was considered a third gender, not a woman, not a man but something else.

But even from a young age I rejected that imposed identification, I was a man regardless of who I had sex with.

But (yet another but) I always rejected many of the defining qualities of what a man was meant to be in that culture. (Just as an example or two: men don't cry or men don't sew).

I do wonder if I was growing up today whether I would have adopted a self identification of 'non binary"?
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Old 20th November 2019, 02:17 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This is where and what I have to admit I struggle to understand.

As a gay man in the culture I grew up in a gay man wasn't considered a "real" man. So I think you could say being a gay man was considered a third gender, not a woman, not a man but something else.

But even from a young age I rejected that imposed identification, I was a man regardless of who I had sex with.

But (yet another but) I always rejected many of the defining qualities of what a man was meant to be in that culture. (Just as an example or two: men don't cry or men don't sew).

I do wonder if I was growing up today whether I would have adopted a self identification of 'non binary"?
I don't know. As a straight cis man I don't get why my friends feel it is important to be viewed as other than a man or woman, just that they do. And that may or may not accompany body disphoria on top of gender issues.
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Old 20th November 2019, 02:50 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Much slippage to get to the point I wish to comment on.

I am in agreement in principle with the hilited statement. I have never had an opportunity to put in into practice. I have never had a person tell me the gender they identify with. I know that there are posters here who have much different life experiences than me. I would like to know if there are people who encounter this type of open self-identification enough for this to be a principle that needs to be stated.
It has just come up in our family as a good friend has decided that they would rather go by "they/them" than the pronouns we previously used. I have a hard time with it because i don't talk about them very often, so I don't practice it. But, my kids give me gentle reminders and I am getting the hang of it.

Bottom line is that it is a sign of respect for their wishes. They are going through some tough times and we have always been supportive of them so it seems an odd time to say "No thanks, I will call you whatever I want and you'll just have to get over it. This is the real world, deal!"

Quote:
Also, I read this as being pronouns that one would use when discussing the gender-identifying person with a third party, and not when one is in direct conversation with that person. The only pronoun that would arise in direct conversation is the gender-neutral word you.
This is correct, which makes it a bit harder actually. When the person is in front of you it is easier to remember what that person wants. When you are recalling a person it is easier to fall back into old habits. Especially if they have changed their look to be less binary conforming.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:00 PM   #142
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What motivated me to start this thread was my feeling of incredulity, that so many just refused to accept that gender diversity existed. Those to the far right politically and the religious (familiar bedfellows often), being the least able to accept the existence of this phenomena.

Some here sought to cloud the issue with debate regarding definitions of gender versus sexuality and although some vagueness exists (possibly mainly among academics), I think the average person in the street accepts the terms gender and sex as interchangeable. The small number of those questioned who responded "I don't know.", as pointed out by arth, seems to indicate a lack of confusion.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:01 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
My perspective might be too Eurocentric or something, but most of these appear to be 'men who take on feminine roles' and vice versa. So these 'other' genders still seem to exist on the masculine-feminine spectrum, rather than adding an extra dimension to 'genderedness'.
To be more frank, they seem like gay men. Many traditional societies push gay men into transsexualism, and this seems like a sexed up variation of that. It is rather ironic that we have come so far in gay acceptance and are now going back to "you act in gender non-conforming ways so you must be a different gender".
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:08 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It has just come up in our family as a good friend has decided that they would rather go by "they/them" than the pronouns we previously used. I have a hard time with it because i don't talk about them very often, so I don't practice it. But, my kids give me gentle reminders and I am getting the hang of it.

Bottom line is that it is a sign of respect for their wishes. They are going through some tough times and we have always been supportive of them so it seems an odd time to say "No thanks, I will call you whatever I want and you'll just have to get over it. This is the real world, deal!"



This is correct, which makes it a bit harder actually. When the person is in front of you it is easier to remember what that person wants. When you are recalling a person it is easier to fall back into old habits. Especially if they have changed their look to be less binary conforming.

Well this is what it's all about. Trying to accommodate and put at ease those who are already going through tough times. A sentiment alien to the far right wingers like One Nation, who can't handle any kind of sexual diversity and don't give a damn about who they hurt.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:17 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
<...>
Some here sought to cloud the issue with debate regarding definitions of gender versus sexuality and although some vagueness exists (possibly mainly among academics), I think the average person in the street accepts the terms gender and sex as interchangeable. The small number of those questioned who responded "I don't know.", as pointed out by arth, seems to indicate a lack of confusion.
Not said sarcastically : have you looked in many of the gender related threads on this board over the past year or so? "Transwomen are not women", etc.? A major source of the difficulty in those discussions are that there's a vocal cultural push to say that 'sex' and 'gender' are indeed two different (though related) things. There's a bit of resistance to that from some segments. Then you get down to the "okay, sex and gender are different - define what constitutes the 'man' and 'woman' genders". That will give you 10 different answers when you ask 9 different people, so there's a huge dust up at that point, too.

I can't speak to what the average person on the street thinks, but there's a non-trival push from segments in society to decouple "man" from "male" and "woman" from "female", followed by loads of arguments over specific definitions of those decoupled words.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:17 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
There's plenty of evidence that homosexuality has existed for millennia, transgenderism not so much.
because it really isn't pat of the OP and I'm not interested on getting into another Trans bashing thread, I'm just going to put this here and leave it.

Originally Posted by Wiki
Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender priests, and Assyrian texts document trans prostitutes; evidence suggests these gender roles go back to prehistoric times and may have a common origin with third gender roles that were accepted in America before European colonization, some of which (like Navajo nádleehi and Zuni lhamana) survived colonizers' hostility. Graves of trans- or third-gender people in Europe and America have been identified from 4500 years ago, and likely depictions occur in art around the Mediterranean from 9000 to 3700 years ago. In Ancient Greece, Phrygia, and Rome, there were trans-female galli priests, and records of women dressing as men to vote, fight, or study; Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222) preferred to be called a lady not a lord, sought sex reassignment surgery, and has been seen as an early trans figure. Hijras on the Indian subcontinent and kathoeys in Thailand have formed trans-feminine third genders since ancient times, documented for thousands of years; today, at least half a million hijras live in India and as many as another half million live in Bangladesh, legally recognized as a third gender, and many trans people are accepted in Thailand.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:19 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
As the master of the hypothetical, I can do anything within the bounds of reason and imagination.
What are you? The curator of the Twilight Zone?

Quote:
If a society chose to exempt some group from the norms of both masculinity and femininity, what would you call it other than a third gender?
A social class.

Quote:
See post 62 for what I nearly always mean by gender.
Ok. I disagree, of course, but let's work with that.

The very fact that you define gender as pertaining to masculinity and femininity shows that it is, actually, binary.

In the past, gender was used interchangeably with sex. This new usage might be justifiable, but not on a basis of a "better understanding" of humans. It's just changing outlooks.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:51 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The very fact that you define gender as pertaining to masculinity and femininity shows that it is, actually, binary.
Only if one were to add in the premise that there are no intermediate values to be found between the two.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In the past, gender was used interchangeably with sex.
I think it's quite safe to assume that the people who authored the survey question about preferred pronouns had a more modern conception in mind.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:57 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think the average person in the street accepts the terms gender and sex as interchangeable.
Sure. Whenever the average person on the street has told me to "be a man" they have always meant "have a penis and testicles". I am not sure how they thought that, if I didn't have those, I would be able to grow them.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:03 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think it's quite safe to assume that the people who authored the survey question about preferred pronouns had a more modern conception in mind.
Define "modern". When was the time that "masculine" and "feminine" referred to nothing else than biological sex? I don't believe that time existed.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:12 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Something does not have to be common for the evidence of its existence to be overwhelming or mountainous.

I know some argue that many transgender folk are just screwed up in the head, and this lowers the credibility of their claim, that they are a gender other than that suggested by genitalia. Hence they reject the notion of gender diversity.

When confronted with the evidence that ambiguous genitalia and chromosome irregularities are observed (albeit a rarity) a plank is knocked from their platform. The honest ones should concede defeat but many just dodge around the issue.
Counterexample: the existence of mixed race people and acknowledgement of the social construction of race does not imply the acceptance of Rachel Dolezal.

(I'm only using this example for this particular logical argument. I'm not claiming all trans people are like Dolezal.)
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:21 PM   #152
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When Rudyard Kipling said "And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!" all he meant was "You will be over a certain age and have a penis and testicles".
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:24 PM   #153
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Define "modern".
After 1955, the year in which the idea of gender roles was put forth.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:27 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
After 1955.
Rudyard Kipling's "If" was written in 1895, so we will have to back up a little.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:30 PM   #155
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That is the way of the world. All my life I have been told I am not a man.

However if I turn around and say "Fine, I am not a man" then those same people will angrily denounce me for suggesting that there is more to gender than biological sex.

And they will strenuously deny that I was ever told I was not a man.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:50 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Could I just interject a plea that the other thread *stay* in the other thread? I've completely given up on it, and I really don't want to see this thread go down the same road.
I suspect that driving down a road to get to the truth of the matter, will always be the same road. Even if you start at different origins.
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:56 PM   #157
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Sex is biology; gender is roles culturally associated with sex. Men are hunters, protectors. Women are gatherers, caretakers. That’s the way I’ve come to understand it. Therefore, it’s difficult for me to “accept gender diversity.” I can see Person A seems to be a dude; Person B seems to be a chick and Person C . . . Well I can’t really tell what Person C is.

I have no problem with people expressing themselves however they see fit. I will respect how they want me to refer to them as best I can -I might slip here and there because it’s not something I’ve ever experienced. But I do not accept that there is Masculine, Feminine and Multiple Others. How do we define those Multiple Others outside of the Masculine/Feminine binary? What, for example, does genderqueer mean? I can’t see how it means anything other than “equal expressions of culturally typical male and female roles.”
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:57 PM   #158
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Miranda Devine, who at other times has denied that there is any difference between gender and biological sex writes:

"This is the noble side of masculinity that we once would perpetuate in folklore and stories passed down from father to son about what it means to be a real man."

Presumably they all said "Son, in order to be a real man, be over sixteen and have a penis and testicles".

Later she says:

"The male attributes it fingered as most worrisome were: stoicism, competitiveness, dominance, aggression, anti-femininity, achievement, “eschewal of the appearance of weakness,” adventure, risk and violence.

Gimme a break! Without any of that, all you’re left with is a soy boy with whom no self-respecting woman would want to mate."

So even Miranda Devine identifies another gender: "soy boy".

If I am not stoic, nor competitive, not dominant, not aggressive, not anti-femininity, a low-achiever, non-adventurous and non violent and don't eschew the appearance of weakness then I am not a man, I am a "soy-boy".
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Old 20th November 2019, 04:59 PM   #159
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That is the way of the world. All my life I have been told I am not a man.

However if I turn around and say "Fine, I am not a man" then those same people will angrily denounce me for suggesting that there is more to gender than biological sex.

And they will strenuously deny that I was ever told I was not a man.
What do they mean by saying you are not a man?

Are they saying you aren't stepping up and doing manly things (i hate that, fck conforming to gender, do what you want), or is it you physically don't look like a man?

EDIT:
just carried on reading the posts and yes, you answered it.

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Old 20th November 2019, 05:02 PM   #160
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Can we all stop this silly pretense that the distinction between gender and biological sex is something new and that it is something being pushed only by liberals?
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