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Old 20th November 2019, 05:04 PM   #161
Tsukasa Buddha
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can we all stop this silly pretense that the distinction between gender and biological sex is something new and that it is something being pushed only by liberals?
Let's also be honest that most of us reject the "real man" and "soy boy" gender expectations, and as you yourself say, they don't actually mean you are not male or a man.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:05 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
What do they mean by saying you are not a man?

Are they saying you aren't stepping up and doing manly things (i hate that, fck conforming to gender, do what you want), or is it you physically don't look like a man?
I have no idea what they meant, that is part of the trouble.

I recall watching a TV debate in which a gay school boy was talking about the way he was bullied at school. The headmaster said "It is partly your own fault, for example you should try to walk more like a man".

I wish I had been there and could have asked the headmaster to demonstrate what a man walks like.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:07 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think we tear down the sex / gender distinction at our own peril.
Sure, I get that. But out of curiosity, may I ask your gender? If "male" and "female" are not genders, I'm curious how you would answer.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:12 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I have no idea what they meant, that is part of the trouble.

I recall watching a TV debate in which a gay school boy was talking about the way he was bullied at school. The headmaster said "It is partly your own fault, for example you should try to walk more like a man".

I wish I had been there and could have asked the headmaster to demonstrate what a man walks like.
Here is a good demonstration by the alpha male himself.
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:23 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Rudyard Kipling's "If" was written in 1895, so we will have to back up a little.
It's a great poem and all, and a top-notch answer to the question what constitutes (non-toxic) masculinity, but it doesn't tell us anything about what makes "gender" a useful construct for these sorts of discussions.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Sure, I get that. But out of curiosity, may I ask your gender?
I identify as a man, in the social sense invoked by Kipling. (Not that I've checked all those boxes yet.)
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Old 20th November 2019, 05:24 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I have no idea what they meant, that is part of the trouble.

I recall watching a TV debate in which a gay school boy was talking about the way he was bullied at school. The headmaster said "It is partly your own fault, for example you should try to walk more like a man".

I wish I had been there and could have asked the headmaster to demonstrate what a man walks like.
Yeah that headmaster was wrong.

being told to 'be a man', or 'man up', or 'act like a man' whilst not knowing what that means has had a big impact on people growing up,
being male is a spectrum in itself, most males aren't at either end of it.
it shouldn't have happened.

But it does seem to be less likely nowadays, as that generation of males doing all the hard work is dying out, and females are kicking themselves into gear and picking up the slack.

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Old 20th November 2019, 06:00 PM   #167
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I am trying to get a version of "If" if a woman had written it about being a man:

'If you can wash the plates and leave,
On every plate a speck.
And shout "Where are my keys?"
Before your pockets you have checked
If you can sweep a floor and still
It looks unto the eye unswept
And tackle every household chore
In manner studiedly inept.

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!'
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Old 20th November 2019, 06:46 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I identify as a man, in the social sense invoked by Kipling. (Not that I've checked all those boxes yet.)
I see. I also identify as a man. But I use "male" for gender rather "man" because I've always been male, but I haven't always been a man. Before that I was a boy.
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Old 21st November 2019, 04:11 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
because it really isn't pat of the OP and I'm not interested on getting into another Trans bashing thread, I'm just going to put this here and leave it.
Hmm were the viking warrior women viewed as women or third gendered? Given that they got pretty much removed from history and found through archaeology it is an interesting question.
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Old 21st November 2019, 04:14 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
After 1955, the year in which the idea of gender roles was put forth.
And penquins have only been having gay sex for a few years. No naturalist noted it 100 years ago so it did not exist.
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Old 21st November 2019, 05:03 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Only if one were to add in the premise that there are no intermediate values to be found between the two.
No addition is required. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate the existence of such a spectrum.

Quote:
I think it's quite safe to assume that the people who authored the survey question about preferred pronouns had a more modern conception in mind.
'Modern' does not mean better. I see no reason to use a different definition now. The existence of trans people does not change that. Hell, even if I were to accept that "gender fluid" was a thing, it wouldn't change that. The only thing that would is "non-binary", but again that's predicated on such a thing existing.
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Old 21st November 2019, 05:08 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can we all stop this silly pretense that the distinction between gender and biological sex is something new and that it is something being pushed only by liberals?
Gender expectations being wrong doesn't mean that gender and sex are different.
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Old 21st November 2019, 05:10 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I identify as a man, in the social sense invoked by Kipling. (Not that I've checked all those boxes yet.)
See, this is a fundamental difference here. I don't "identifty" as anything. My objective characteristics are undeniable: I'm a man, and my self-ID has no bearing on that.
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Old 21st November 2019, 05:11 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No addition is required. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate the existence of such a spectrum.
What sort of evidence would you find persuasive for the proposition that some men are much less masculine (and more feminine) than others? Seems like you ought to have noticed this IRL by now.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:02 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
See, this is a fundamental difference here. I don't "identifty" as anything. My objective characteristics are undeniable: I'm a man, and my self-ID has no bearing on that.
This is an obvious equivocation; you're not invoking "man" in the same sense Kipling does.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:10 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What sort of evidence would you find persuasive for the proposition that some men are much less masculine (and more feminine) than others? Seems like you ought to have noticed this IRL by now.
I never said that no man is more or less masculine or feminine than another. You're not addressing anything I've said here. However this does not create new genders.

Quote:
This is an obvious equivocation.
As I've told others recently, "obvious" is code for "this is my opinion." There's no equivocation. I'm pointing out the different definitions.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:13 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I never said that no man is more or less masculine or feminine than another. You're not addressing anything I've said here. However this does not create new genders.
Where did I claim the existence of new genders?

ETA: What I actually did claim is that we are not dealing with a strict (0,1) binary when it comes to the various socially conditioned expectations we refer to as masculinity and femininity.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:15 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Where did I claim the existence of new genders?
To my knowledge, nowhere. But that is the topic of the thread. Regardless of how many differences in behaviour the two sexes display within a culture or between cultures, there still are only two of them. So what are we getting at here?
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:22 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
To my knowledge, nowhere. But that is the topic of the thread. Regardless of how many differences in behaviour the two sexes display within a culture or between cultures, there still are only two of them. So what are we getting at here?
Again, what I'm getting at is the masculinty and femininity are a spectrum of socially conditioned expectations which range from hypermasculine on one end to hyperfeminine on the other end. This is my understanding of what genderWP means, in the most general Wikipedia sense of the term. It's fairly important that we at least define our terms if we hope to discuss such contentious topics.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:09 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Again, what I'm getting at is the masculinty and femininity are a spectrum of socially conditioned expectations which range from hypermasculine on one end to hyperfeminine on the other end.
Yes but I don't know where you're going with that.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:33 AM   #181
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I only believe in two genders: male and female.

However, I do recognize there are many folks who for emotional & bio-chemical reasons feel their body does not fit the gender of their mind.

And I don't believe we should persecute or mistreat such people.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:45 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes but I don't know where you're going with that.
I am attempting to remedy the ambiguity in the survey question itself by settling on a specific meaning for gender among the many available to us.

See the enumerated list in post #72 for more.
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:46 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm were the viking warrior women viewed as women or third gendered? Given that they got pretty much removed from history and found through archaeology it is an interesting question.
No, they were women. They were referred to as such in the sagas and in contemporary accounts. Viking women became warriors to defend their homesteads while their husbands went away on raiding trips. The only women who wouldn't take up a sword or an axe to defend themselves were the unmarried or slaves.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 06:28 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Originally Posted by Strawberry
Transwomen are biological males, and if that is transphobia then reality is transphobia.
Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."
Wherever you fall on the debate over terminology, when she said biological males, she was clearly talking about their biological sex, and it really is clear that yes, trans women are biologically male.

To say that they are members of the female gender is a separate issue.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 01:29 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And penguins have only been having gay sex for a few years. No naturalist noted it 100 years ago so it did not exist.
I sense that you may have missed my point, so I'll try to be crystal clear.

When Australian survey respondents were asked to apply gender to human beings, they may have had in mind a set of ideas about gender and human sexuality which began to be developed in 1955. Before that time, gender was typically something linguists talked about, psychologists not so much.

What idea of gender pops into your head when you are asked whether there are more than two?
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Old 23rd November 2019, 11:44 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How many factual genders have we observed?
Sorry, I tend to get lost in these threads because I read from my tablet and read and post from my computer. And sometimes (rarely) post from my tablet.

Wanted to get back to this only to say that the video that arth posted (around post #16) says it better than I ever could, so to find that answer would be to watch that video.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:10 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Wanted to get back to this only to say that the video that arth posted (around post #16) says it better than I ever could, so to find that answer would be to watch that video.
Once again, sex ≠ gender.

There is not a distinct form of gender expression or a set of social roles for any given intersex condition. People with DSDs have not been shown to be more likely to identify as non-binary than anyone else.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:21 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Once again, sex ≠ gender.

There is not a distinct form of gender expression or a set of social roles for any given intersex condition. People with DSDs have not been shown to be more likely to identify as non-binary than anyone else.
"Once again"? How about you quoting me saying or implying anything like sex = gender first before correcting me?
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:22 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
"Once again"? How about you quoting me saying or implying anything like sex = gender first before correcting me?
You cited to a video about sex diversity in answer to a question about gender diversity.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:00 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
"Once again"? How about you quoting me saying or implying anything like sex = gender first before correcting me?
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You cited to a video about sex diversity in answer to a question about gender diversity.

To most people sex does equal gender although there is a little vagueness.

Whether it does or not precisely coincide is not of that much interest to me. What I find interesting is the dismissal by the far right and the religious of there being any variation other than two distinct categories.

I discussed this at some length with my religious nephew who clearly identified sex with gender, and steadfastly refused to admit there could be anything but someone who is male or female. The incidence of ambiguous genitals and other than XX or XY chromosomes were just dismissed as fiction.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:14 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
To most people sex does equal gender although there is a little vagueness.
Which is why this particular survey question is fairly ****, without further elaboration.

"Sex" refers fairly unequivocally to the distribution of physical characteristics we associate with males and females, "gender" has a much broader set of possible meanings, to include gender identity and gender expression. If people in Australia think of sex and gender as synonymous, we can draw very few conclusions as to what these survey results should be taken to mean. Some respondents may have been affirming a sexual binary, some may have been affirming a gender binary, some may have been saying there are only two socially legitimate ways of expressing one's gender identity.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:25 PM   #192
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For those who missed binary sex identity features at birth a 3rd category must exist.

Respected as any other person would be and the same opportunity in life. As I read here it rarely actually works put that way but that is human nature.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 02:41 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which is why this particular survey question is fairly ****, without further elaboration.
Yes well you have been banging that drum for some time now.

Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?

Can we acknowledge that those who can't admit to this, tend to be on the right or far right* and or religiously inclined?



* The One Nation party foundered by Pauline ("please explain") Hansen is the best example in Australia. A low IQ is a prerequisite to joining the party.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 03:07 PM   #194
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes well you have been banging that drum for some time now.

Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?

Can we acknowledge that those who can't admit to this, tend to be on the right or far right* and or religiously inclined?



* The One Nation party foundered by Pauline ("please explain") Hansen is the best example in Australia. A low IQ is a prerequisite to joining the party.
Of course there are, but I can't see how this remotely relates to d4m10n's or my point that if there are people confusing gender and biological sex in a survey the results are worthless.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 03:23 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
To most people sex does equal gender although there is a little vagueness.

Whether it does or not precisely coincide is not of that much interest to me. What I find interesting is the dismissal by the far right and the religious of there being any variation other than two distinct categories.

I discussed this at some length with my religious nephew who clearly identified sex with gender, and steadfastly refused to admit there could be anything but someone who is male or female. The incidence of ambiguous genitals and other than XX or XY chromosomes were just dismissed as fiction.
re: hltd
I think that's where the problem lies,
we have sex and gender,
sex is trivially easy to demonstrate as it's biological,
gender is a bit more fuzzy as it's phsychological.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 03:38 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

I discussed this at some length with my religious nephew who clearly identified sex with gender, and steadfastly refused to admit there could be anything but someone who is male or female. The incidence of ambiguous genitals and other than XX or XY chromosomes were just dismissed as fiction.
I thought it was interesting that Lyle Shelton, one of the loudest religious voices claiming gender=biological sex became hugely offended when a school taught that God has no gender and might just as well be called 'She'. Lyle called it PC gone mad and said that God is definitely a 'He'.. So presumably that means he thinks God is biologically male.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 04:40 PM   #197
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?
Of course, but if you're going to say things like this:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?
...then you should probably be able to say exactly which widely reported fact the survey respondents missed. Given the massive ambiguity in the survey, I don't feel like it provides us any real insight on any well-specified question about gender.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 04:47 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?

Can we acknowledge that those who can't admit to this, tend to be on the right or far right* and or religiously inclined?
It is hard to "admit" to anything when even supporters can't agree what the terms even mean. For example, the video defined sex and gender separately, but you just said most people seeing them as equivalent.

I find this attitude not to be helpful. It is like both sides are saying "I accept science, you just need to Google it, and you are willfully dumb for not understanding it already." I've seen lots of debates, read lots of articles, heard from lots of people, and it is still not very coherent. When it comes to "gender", no one really agrees on what people are talking about.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 05:12 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is an obvious equivocation; you're not invoking "man" in the same sense Kipling does.
Kipling himself uses the word in more than one way in the poem.

Speaking for myself I can't think of any sense of 'man' in which I 'feel' as though I am a man or any sense of 'woman' that I 'feel' as though I am.a woman.
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Last edited by Robin; 23rd November 2019 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 05:13 PM   #200
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