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Old 23rd November 2019, 09:07 PM   #201
The Norseman
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You cited to a video about sex diversity in answer to a question about gender diversity.
Ah, so no, you cannot quote me saying anything like that. You've attributed to me something which I never said nor implied.

Plus, it turns out that this demonstrates unequivocally that you did not first watch the video before making your comment which does clearly indicate my position on the matter which you would have known before pontificating to me with your thoughtless clarification.

Here, I'll even quote to you from the first bloody minute of the video which was not only spoken, but written on the screen: "Gender: social and cultural attributes and understandings of mend and women and their roles. Not every culture has only two categories, and it's increasingly seen as a spectrum. The gender you identify as may or may not be the same one as what you express with things like your clothing and behavior, all of which can also be on a spectrum."

And this: "Sexuality: who you are attracted to -- this can be equally complicated and on a spectrum; where you are on these spectrums isn't necessarily fixed."

Once again: you made a mistake.
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Old 24th November 2019, 02:19 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Ah, so no, you cannot quote me saying anything like that. You've attributed to me something which I never said nor implied.

Plus, it turns out that this demonstrates unequivocally that you did not first watch the video before making your comment which does clearly indicate my position on the matter which you would have known before pontificating to me with your thoughtless clarification.

Here, I'll even quote to you from the first bloody minute of the video which was not only spoken, but written on the screen: "Gender: social and cultural attributes and understandings of mend and women and their roles. Not every culture has only two categories, and it's increasingly seen as a spectrum. The gender you identify as may or may not be the same one as what you express with things like your clothing and behavior, all of which can also be on a spectrum."

And this: "Sexuality: who you are attracted to -- this can be equally complicated and on a spectrum; where you are on these spectrums isn't necessarily fixed."

Once again: you made a mistake.
The video just gives the assertions that people are questioning in the beginning, then goes on to detail intersex conditions. I don't see how it is supposed to be helpful.

Let's take the gender definition. It defines it as culturally defined expression and role. But your gender identity is also independent of your expression or role. How does this make sense? If I have the expression and role of a woman, but identify as a non-binary, then is gender just gender identity? At that point it is meaningless. Is a feminine acting man in actually "less of a man" on the "spectrum"?

For the sexuality definition, I like how it uses "who" to cutely gloss over sex vs gender, and endorses conversion therapy fluidity. Huge issues are there that are very controversial in the LGBT community out in the real world. Research, and most people's IRL experience, backs the idea that sexuality is categorical, not a spectrum.

If I said I was straight, and I am attracted to, have sex with, and have long term romantic relationships with men, who would give my identity the time of day? It is incongruent with all facets of sexuality. The "identity" part is something people create for themselves, and is subject to cultural notions, but isn't terribly important.

With gender, the argument is that it should be the other way around somehow. People have an identity, which is innate, based on socially defined attributes and roles that they may not have at all. And it isn't sex, but anything differed based on sex should be differed based on gender. I don't get it.
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Old 24th November 2019, 02:31 AM   #203
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She ain't that hard

Biological sex

What you are born as. Male or female and a few in betweeners that get decided at birth in most cases and the do some surgery. In extremely rare cases she is a bit don't know

Gender

What your brain thinks you should be as a sex despite your biological sex

Who particularly cares what people think they are. Some say it is a spectrum

Sexual preference

Who you want to shag. Man, women, animal, bike inanimate objects

First one is just one or other or a quirk of nature

The second is just boring and who cares and the third, is the same
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Old 24th November 2019, 07:52 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
"Gender: social and cultural attributes and understandings of mend and women and their roles. Not every culture has only two categories, and it's increasingly seen as a spectrum. The gender you identify as may or may not be the same one as what you express with things like your clothing and behavior, all of which can also be on a spectrum."
You left off the bit where the narrator clearly states (~00:45) that this is not what the (admittedly informative) video is about.

He just provides the definitions and then moves on to the subject of sex.

That said, let's use his definition to analyse the survey in the OP. The question posed to (non-Aboriginal) Australians was whether they have more than two categories of "understandings of men and women and their [social] roles." I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here, either you were brought up to believe masculine and feminine are the only two valid expressions of gender, or you were brought up to believe in more than two forms of gender expression. Nothing in the video helps us come up with a correct (scientific) understanding of what is basically an anthropological problem, for any given society.
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Old 24th November 2019, 03:04 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You left off the bit where the narrator clearly states (~00:45) that this is not what the (admittedly informative) video is about.

He just provides the definitions and then moves on to the subject of sex.
Yes. So what? It accurately describes my position on the subject IN ANSWER TO A QUESTION I WAS ASKED.

How is this so difficult for you?
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Old 24th November 2019, 03:11 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The video just gives the assertions that people are questioning in the beginning, then goes on to detail intersex conditions. I don't see how it is supposed to be helpful.
Guess I can't help you then.

"Gender social and cultural attributes and understandings of men and women and their roles. Not every culture has only two categories, and it's increasingly seen as a spectrum. The gender you identify as may or may not be the same one as what you express with things like your clothing and behavior, all of which can also be on a spectrum."

This describes my position on the subject.

People should be treated humanely, ethically, and morally just no matter how they self-identify and I don't care what genitals they have and I don't care who they are attracted to. It should have no bearing on how they are treated which should be as equally as possible.

It's a great video on explaining biological processes and genetics which blows away any bigot's lame justifications for oppression and that's great. It also simply states gender as well.

Again, I don't get why this seems so controversial. There is absolutely no reason at all for all humans to be treated humanely, and ethically and morally equivalent to one another; there's no reason why all humans cannot be treated sociologically equal either.

I mean, I know why it's a "problem" now, but that's a different rant.
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Old 24th November 2019, 04:08 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
It accurately describes my position on the subject IN ANSWER TO A QUESTION I WAS ASKED.
The video doesn't really address the question you were asked.

Once again, here is the question:
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How many factual genders have we observed?
Here is your purported answer to the question:
Quote:
"Gender: social and cultural attributes and understandings of men and women and their roles. Not every culture has only two categories, and it's increasingly seen as a spectrum. The gender you identify as may or may not be the same one as what you express with things like your clothing and behavior, all of which can also be on a spectrum."
Q: So how many genders have we observed?

A: It's increasingly seen as a spectrum.

Notice how the question asks for a number, and the answer avoids providing one.

So far, I've only seen (1) masculinity, (2) femininity, and (3) various remixes and rejections of the first two. I guess you could say that's more than two, but if there is a widely recognized and readily recognizable third-gender in Australian culture it exists primarily among the aboriginal people.
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Old 24th November 2019, 07:49 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You cited to a video about sex diversity in answer to a question about gender diversity.
No, that was me. I posted that video.
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Old 24th November 2019, 08:59 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, that was me. I posted that video.
#186
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Old 24th November 2019, 09:00 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
#186
Gotcha. Ignore me, then.
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Old 25th November 2019, 02:02 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't feel like we are taking this question seriously enough. Let me put together a hypothetical for consideration.

Famed anthropologist Margaret Napoleon Mead-Chagnon returns from a years-long expedition into the inaccessible depths of hitherto uncharted territories, where she studied the mysterious tribe of Trimerís people. She observes that, among adults, there are three well-defined social roles: men are expected to behave in masculine ways, women are expected to behave in feminine ways, and the third gender is expected to behave in ways which may most easily be described as stoic. For example, men are expected to be somewhat frank when it comes to expressing their opinions, women are expected to be relatively demure and deferential, third gender individuals are expected to hold their own counsel unless persuaded by men and women alike to hold forth. Men are expected to hunt, women are expected to gather, third gender individuals are expected to study ancient lore. Men are expected to cover their loins, women their loins and breasts, third gender individuals are expected to wear flowing robes which conceal most noticable features of biological sex. Men are expected to resolve their differences with shouting and perhaps violence, women are expected to resolve their differences with gossip and social networking, third gender individuals are expected to ratiocinate together until they find some mutually agreeable way to balance their respective utility functions. Men are expected to initiate courtship, women are expected to be coy but receptive, third gender individuals are expected to abstain from romantic entanglements altogether. Many other sets of three-way social norms may be adduced, these are only a few.

In the case of the Trimerís people, I’d say we have reasonably strong evidence that their culture runs on a three gender model of social norms and relations. I would not say this is true of Australia (at least not yet) and as primary evidence I would cite the responses to the first survey question mentioned in the OP.
I love this.

Sounds like people who have been freed from the menstrual cycle.

Or like the hallowed halls of academia, or Jedi knights, or steampunks, or Japanese alternative fashionistas or the Mosuo, or, or...



And with all of those, there are still exceptions to rules.

So there seem to be any number of examples of sex or gender.

(Or perhaps as many as there have been people. )

Words aren't as numerous as permutations of atoms, molecules, cells, thoughts, etc.
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Old 25th November 2019, 02:52 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I love this.

Sounds like people who have been freed from the menstrual cycle.

Or like the hallowed halls of academia, or Jedi knights, or steampunks, or Japanese alternative fashionistas or the Mosuo, or, or...



And with all of those, there are still exceptions to rules.

So there seem to be any number of examples of sex or gender.

(Or perhaps as many as there have been people. )

Words aren't as numerous as permutations of atoms, molecules, cells, thoughts, etc.
There was always going to be these days. Doesn't change the fact there are 2 biological sexes with the odd odditity
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Old 25th November 2019, 03:47 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I sense that you may have missed my point, so I'll try to be crystal clear.
And you missed the point that scientists refusal to see what is actually there when their biases get in the way is also a very real thing.
Quote:
When Australian survey respondents were asked to apply gender to human beings, they may have had in mind a set of ideas about gender and human sexuality which began to be developed in 1955. Before that time, gender was typically something linguists talked about, psychologists not so much.

What idea of gender pops into your head when you are asked whether there are more than two?
Broadly it is mixing up gender is the most common. It is highly individualized going by my friends who use they pronouns.
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Old 25th November 2019, 03:53 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re: hltd
I think that's where the problem lies,
we have sex and gender,
sex is trivially easy to demonstrate as it's biological,
gender is a bit more fuzzy as it's phsychological.
Though sorting everyone into only two categories with sex is not really doable. Three is pretty easy though people get miffed about exactly where to draw the line between male/female and other. They really don't like it drawn around fertility.
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Old 25th November 2019, 05:10 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Once again, sex ≠ gender.
Right. Sex -> gender.
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Old 25th November 2019, 06:30 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The second is just boring and who cares and the third, is the same
Maybe to you! As someone fond of "the shagging", I may just say #3 is the most important!
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:35 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Gotcha. Ignore me, then.
In case you really do feel I've been ignoring you, I would still be interested in your thoughts on the enumerated list in post #72. Did I leave off any plausible interpretations of the question? Did I correctly guess which interpretation you prefer?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Broadly it is mixing up gender is the most common.
I asked what idea of gender comes into your head, but you did not say which of the many definitions of gender you are thinking of here. As best as I can tell, by way of analogy, you are mixing two pigments of paint (say, red and blue) and calling it a spectrum.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Though sorting everyone into only two categories with sex is not really doable.
Every single one of your ancestors produced either sperm or ova at some point in their lives. What fraction of humanity produces neither?

(Serious question, trying to scope the problem here.)
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right. Sex -> gender.
I think that is roughly correct, but how the bimodal distribution of sexual characteristics leads to a set of gender roles varies hugely based on environmental circumstances, including human social milieu. We should not be quick to assume that the gender roles we inherited from our forebears continue to make sense in a 21st century knowledge economy, even as women make up the bulk of post-secondary graduates.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:58 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Every single one of your ancestors produced either sperm or ova at some point in their lives. What fraction of humanity produces neither?
Hence why being actively fertile makes a great line, but then people get all upset by people losing biological sex if they find out they are sterile, or any such thing.

As for scope I would expect 5-10%

"About 9% of men and about 11% of women of reproductive age in the United States have experienced fertility problems"

https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/top...ioninfo/common

Of course there is a pretty strong selection bias towards fertility when one limits themselves to those who have reproduced.

Then the prepubescent and post menopausals being outside biological sex you get pretty decent percentage of the population.

Solely intersex conditions would be more like 2% max.

Quote:
I asked what idea of gender comes into your head, but you did not say which of the many definitions of gender you are thinking of here. As best as I can tell, by way of analogy, you are mixing two pigments of paint (say, red and blue) and calling it a spectrum.
Or just changing the frequency of light and calling it a spectrum. That is crazy talk.

As for what comes into my mind, the answer is very little because it is like identifying sexually as queer intentionally not informative. Queer sexuality encompasses all things and so an individual can be pretty much anything other than straight and fit in, well gender queer is like that.
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Old 25th November 2019, 08:53 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course there is a pretty strong selection bias towards fertility when one limits themselves to those who have reproduced.
Reproduction is sort of what sex is about, when we get down to the question of why mammals come in two basic flavors pretty much of the time. Nature isn't teleological, ofc, but natural selection provides a strong illusion of aiming for reproductive fitnessWP.

(I think you've massively overestimated the fraction of humans who've never produced either ova or sperm, BTW.)
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Old 25th November 2019, 09:45 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think that is roughly correct, but how the bimodal distribution of sexual characteristics leads to a set of gender roles varies hugely based on environmental circumstances, including human social milieu. We should not be quick to assume that the gender roles we inherited from our forebears continue to make sense in a 21st century knowledge economy, even as women make up the bulk of post-secondary graduates.
I'm not talking about gender roles. I'm talking about gender itself.
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Old 25th November 2019, 10:15 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not talking about gender roles. I'm talking about gender itself.
Which of the many meanings of "gender itself" are you focusing on here?
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Old 25th November 2019, 11:29 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which of the many meanings of "gender itself" are you focusing on here?
I think I've made my meaning clear already.
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Old 25th November 2019, 06:58 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In case you really do feel I've been ignoring you...
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound dismissive. I just meant that since I had misinterpreted, my contribution based on that mistake can be ignored.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
...I would still be interested in your thoughts on the enumerated list in post #72. Did I leave off any plausible interpretations of the question? Did I correctly guess which interpretation you prefer?
This is the relevant section of that post, I believe:

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
As I keep saying, it isn't nearly as easy as you want it to be. The original proposition "There are more than two genders" admits of several distinct interpretations:
  1. There are more than two sexes
  2. There are more than two gender identitiesWP
  3. There are more than two forms of gender expressionWP
  4. There are more than two basic sets of social expectations associated with sex
I don't know which of these interpretations a typical Aussie would tend to choose, without further context. I get the sense that you strongly prefer the second one, and yes, that does make it rather easy; there are as many subjective senses of self as people care to invent.
I cannot claim to be a "typical" Aussie, but I would say that the question refers to all of those statements.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:24 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I cannot claim to be a "typical" Aussie, but I would say that the question refers to all of those statements.
Each of those are distinct statements with, at least potentially, distinct answers.

How would one answer the question if one thought that the truth value* of the first statement on that list was different from the truth value* of the second statement on the list?

*truth value: as in "the statement is true" or "the statement is false".
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:27 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think I've made my meaning clear already.
For the sake of the discussion, would you mind restating it?

Not to say that you haven't been clear, only that if I were to try to answer d4mi0n's question about your meaning, I wouldn't be able to. I may simply have not read the thread carefully enough, but rather than going back over the past 6 pages, if it's convenient I'd appreciate you just summing up your viewpoint one more time.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:54 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Each of those are distinct statements with, at least potentially, distinct answers.

How would one answer the question if one thought that the truth value* of the first statement on that list was different from the truth value* of the second statement on the list?

*truth value: as in "the statement is true" or "the statement is false".
I don't know. All I can say is that I found the question very easy and uncomplicated to answer. Yes, there are more than two genders.

I think that the question was deliberately vague in order to capture the widest possible range of interpretations.
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Old 25th November 2019, 11:49 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't know. All I can say is that I found the question very easy and uncomplicated to answer. Yes, there are more than two genders.

I think that the question was deliberately vague in order to capture the widest possible range of interpretations.

Yes I agree with this.

What I found interesting was the steadfast rejection of the idea of diversity (however you define it), by the right wingers and religious. Not altogether surprising however.
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Old 26th November 2019, 12:04 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't know. All I can say is that I found the question very easy and uncomplicated to answer. Yes, there are more than two genders.

I think that the question was deliberately vague in order to capture the widest possible range of interpretations.
Sure. The point I think d4am10n was making is that many of the poll's respondents probably interpreted the question differently, so while the answer to the question is clear to you, others were probably answering a different question.
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Old 26th November 2019, 12:28 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Every single one of your ancestors produced either sperm or ova at some point in their lives...
The vast majority of my ancestors reproduced by binary fission. [/Pedant]
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Old 26th November 2019, 12:44 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sure. The point I think d4am10n was making is that many of the poll's respondents probably interpreted the question differently, so while the answer to the question is clear to you, others were probably answering a different question.
But the pollsters were interested in the answers to all those different questions. And they also wanted to keep it simple enough that ordinary people, unlike us geniuses at ISF, could answer it easily without agonising about exactly what it was asking.
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Old 26th November 2019, 01:39 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Guess I can't help you then.
That is honestly disappointing. It's not just you, no one seems to want to explain things regarding my concerns.

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People should be treated humanely, ethically, and morally just no matter how they self-identify and I don't care what genitals they have and I don't care who they are attracted to. It should have no bearing on how they are treated which should be as equally as possible.

...

Again, I don't get why this seems so controversial. There is absolutely no reason at all for all humans to be treated humanely, and ethically and morally equivalent to one another; there's no reason why all humans cannot be treated sociologically equal either.
I fully agree. I just disagree on the soundness of the sociological/psychological framework being established, and unfortunate implications I see arising from it that undermine these principles.
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Old 26th November 2019, 02:27 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But the pollsters were interested in the answers to all those different questions. And they also wanted to keep it simple enough that ordinary people, unlike us geniuses at ISF, could answer it easily without agonising about exactly what it was asking.
But they didn't get an answer to any of those questions, because they don't know which of those questions was being answered by each individual.
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Old 26th November 2019, 05:23 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
For the sake of the discussion, would you mind restating it?
Ugh. Fine.

I said earlier that Sex -> Gender. At best, the distinction between the two is that one, gender, is the expression of the other in a social setting. But that doesn't mean that it matches expectations (roles) or one's self-identification. At worst, of course, the two words are synonymous.

So my point is that when we talk about gender it isn't the same thing as gender roles. If it is, then there's no point in adding the qualifier "role".
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:31 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ugh. Fine.

I said earlier that Sex -> Gender.
Sure, that made sense to me, but while it's a starting point it doesn't actually tell me what gender is, only that there is a relationship between sex and gender. I certainly agree with that.

Quote:
At best, the distinction between the two is that one, gender, is the expression of the other in a social setting. But that doesn't mean that it matches expectations (roles) or one's self-identification. At worst, of course, the two words are synonymous.
Gender is the expression of sex in a social setting? I'm not trying to be obtuse by I don't understand what that means.

Quote:
So my point is that when we talk about gender it isn't the same thing as gender roles. If it is, then there's no point in adding the qualifier "role".
No problem with you making a distinction between gender and gender roles. But from the above I don't actually know what you mean by gender.
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:36 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Gender is the expression of sex in a social setting? I'm not trying to be obtuse by I don't understand what that means.
Well I can't put it much more clearly. It's behaviours associated with a particular sex and, for me, independant of cultural expectations.
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:43 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
The vast majority of my ancestors reproduced by binary fission.
Well, ****. You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...behaviours associated with a particular sex and, for me, independant of cultural expectations.
So if men are more physically aggressive than women, in nearly all cultural contexts, that would be an aspect of gender but not (necessarily) part of a socially imposed gender role, in your view?

If so, do any other examples come to mind?
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:45 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
So if men are more physically aggressive than women, in nearly all cultural contexts, that would be an aspect of gender but not (necessarily) part of a socially imposed gender role, in your view?
Yeah. Testosterone is not a social construct.

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If so, any other examples come to mind?
Examples of what? Other non-social differences of behaviour between the two?
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:48 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Other non-social differences of behaviour between the two?
Observed broadly cross-culturally, yes.
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:49 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Observed broadly cross-culturally, yes.
Risk taking and ambition comes to mind. Less sedentary tendencies, maybe.

Why?
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:11 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why?
The usual pushback to your position is to claim that observed differences between (human) males and females are generally and primarily the result of social conditioning rather than biological differences. Having more arrows in your quiver would be helpful.
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