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Old 26th November 2019, 08:15 AM   #241
Belz...
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The usual pushback to your position is to claim that observed differences between (human) males and females are generally and primarily the result of social conditioning rather than biological differences.
Well, that's false, so there. There are plenty of differences that are physiological, hormonal and behavioural. Yes, there are a lot of socially-enforced differences but they are often derived from the former.
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:22 AM   #242
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So far in this quagmire of definition we are sure sex is not equal to gender, which is not equal to gender roles and no definition be it legal, science based, psych based or self proclaimed is established as a correct one by all.

Nor do all cultures and populations have the same tolerance of diversity, and probably never will.

There is no baseline beyond an idea of some human decency. And that is shaky.
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:02 AM   #243
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Re: definitional issues, I occasionally find it a useful and enlightening exercise to attempt to restate a proposition while avoiding the key terms under dispute.

Quote:
When you find yourself in philosophical difficulties, the first line of defense is not to define your problematic terms, but to see whether you can think without using those terms at all. Or any of their short synonyms. And be careful not to let yourself invent a new word to use instead. Describe outward observables and interior mechanisms; don't use a single handle, whatever that handle may be.
I don't generally follow this advice, as careful readers have probably noticed, but it seems worth a shot in this case.

The original proposition to be affirmed or rejected was "There are more than two genders."

My rephrase would be something like "There are more than two ways to signal one's affiliation and compliance with a set of social norms based on sex."

I'm still unsure whether that's true or not, though.
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Last edited by d4m10n; 26th November 2019 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 26th November 2019, 10:48 AM   #244
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Here’s the bottom line for me.

I can accept, for the sake of practicality and acceptance of differing views. that people identify with different genders. On that superficial level, I would answer, “Yes, there are more than two genders.”

But I cannot actually wrap my head around what it means to be a non-binary gender. As I asked before, what does genderqueer mean? How is that different from gender non-conforming? What would a 3rd, 4th, 5th...gender actually be if not some variation of male/female? I’ve looked up various definitions but I can’t parse them. Every definition seems to either be a mix of masculine/feminine traits or a vague, “something else.” This does not seem helpful to me on a broad societal basis even if it helps people feel better. How can I possibly know what I’m supposed to do with that?

-All that to say that on a deeper intellectual basis, I would have to answer, “No, there are not more than two genders, only highly individual expressions of the basic binary.”
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Old 26th November 2019, 11:08 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Here’s the bottom line for me.

I can accept, for the sake of practicality and acceptance of differing views. that people identify with different genders. On that superficial level, I would answer, “Yes, there are more than two genders.”

But I cannot actually wrap my head around what it means to be a non-binary gender. As I asked before, what does genderqueer mean? How is that different from gender non-conforming? What would a 3rd, 4th, 5th...gender actually be if not some variation of male/female? I’ve looked up various definitions but I can’t parse them. Every definition seems to either be a mix of masculine/feminine traits or a vague, “something else.” This does not seem helpful to me on a broad societal basis even if it helps people feel better. How can I possibly know what I’m supposed to do with that?

-All that to say that on a deeper intellectual basis, I would have to answer, “No, there are not more than two genders, only highly individual expressions of the basic binary.”
I tend to agree with this.

It is largely an interesting academic discussion to me. I cannot recall even one instance where someone has found it necessary or worthwhile to tell me their personal gender identification, as in "I am a male", "I am a female". or "I am a (insert gender ID here)". For any casual encounter with a stranger I will go with general outward appearance as far as it matters (which is not very far). For anyone closer to me who chooses to divulge my response would be "OK" and then I would continue to interact with that person as I always have.

I do find it interesting to follow the discussions here and learn people's views. Without this thread it is a topic that I likely would never have encountered.
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Old 26th November 2019, 01:34 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Here’s the bottom line for me.

I can accept, for the sake of practicality and acceptance of differing views. that people identify with different genders. On that superficial level, I would answer, “Yes, there are more than two genders.”

But I cannot actually wrap my head around what it means to be a non-binary gender.
I can't wrap my head around being trans, being gay, being christian the list goes on and on. But my inability to understand why someone else finds it compelling to them does not mean I can not recognize that it is and that it exists(Ok I still think all Christians are just doing it for the attention and don't really believe in god)
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Old 26th November 2019, 06:58 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well I can't put it much more clearly. It's behaviours associated with a particular sex and, for me, independant of cultural expectations.
I suppose that my main objection is that I see those as simply sex-differences. I think when people are talking about gender they are generally talking about something else, and it does seem useful to have a word for the concept that they are discussing.

I do agree that there are broad behavioural differences between the sexes that have a basis in biology, but while I think that gender is certainly related to those differences, I think it is a distinct concept, at least as generally used.
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:00 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
But they didn't get an answer to any of those questions, because they don't know which of those questions was being answered by each individual.
Maybe they didn't want an answer to those questions. Maybe they wanted an answer to a different question - the one they actually asked. After all, they managed to eke out a fair amount of information from no answers to those questions.

I still think you're over-complicating this. I think that the question they actually wanted answered was "How many Australians believe that there are more than two genders?"

What about you? Do you believe that there are more than two genders? Strongly agree, agree, don't know, disagree, or strongly disagree?
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:19 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Maybe they didn't want an answer to those questions. Maybe they wanted an answer to a different question - the one they actually asked. After all, they managed to eke out a fair amount of information from no answers to those questions.

I still think you're over-complicating this. I think that the question they actually wanted answered was "How many Australians believe that there are more than two genders?"

What about you? Do you believe that there are more than two genders? Strongly agree, agree, don't know, disagree, or strongly disagree?
From the way I understand the concept it is utterly bollocks and pointless and there could be literally un count able number of variations because it is different peoples brains.


To me it is pretty obvious.

If someone obviously thinks they should have been a chick, dress like a chick, address them as a chick (unless they are a jerk personality wise).

But they are still biologically a dude, so don't get all antsy if females don't want them in their fought for female only spaces like womens refuge.

The last thing some woman who has just been beat to crap by a bloke needs seeking shelter is some bloke in a dress trying to hang out with them.
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:26 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What about you? Do you believe that there are more than two genders? Strongly agree, agree, don't know, disagree, or strongly disagree?
That does not seem like a fair question unless you're willing to disambiguate "more than two genders" for the sake of those answering the question.
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:59 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Maybe they didn't want an answer to those questions. Maybe they wanted an answer to a different question - the one they actually asked. After all, they managed to eke out a fair amount of information from no answers to those questions.

I still think you're over-complicating this. I think that the question they actually wanted answered was "How many Australians believe that there are more than two genders?"

What about you? Do you believe that there are more than two genders? Strongly agree, agree, don't know, disagree, or strongly disagree?
In your opinion did they determine the answer to that question?
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:30 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In your opinion did they determine the answer to that question?
They didn't explain the definition of Gender so no to me.

arthwollipot may disagree
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:30 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
In your opinion did they determine the answer to that question?
They wrote a whole article about it.
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Old 26th November 2019, 09:33 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They wrote a whole article about it.
So how many Australians think there is more than two genders?
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Old 26th November 2019, 10:11 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
So how many Australians think there is more than two genders?
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I look at something like this with incredulity. That some folk just deny the undeniable because to not do so challenges their mindset.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...urvey/11714302

Quote:
Australians are split on how they think about gender diversity beyond the traditional framework of males and females, new survey data suggests.
Forty-five per cent of Australians somewhat or strongly agree that there are more than two genders, however, 38 per cent disagree and 15 per cent are neutral.

How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?
The population of Australia was 23,401,892 at the time of the 2016 Census, so that means that 10,530,851 Australians think that there are more than two genders, if this is a representative sample. You can certainly argue that it isn't.
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Old 26th November 2019, 10:20 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The population of Australia was 23,401,892 at the time of the 2016 Census, so that means that 10,530,851 Australians think that there are more than two genders, if this is a representative sample. You can certainly argue that it isn't.
Thanks, and apologies. I now see that the op of the thread provided this info but I do appreciate you spoon feeding this idiot. I think you are correct in your understanding that this was the question that they were asking, and that the list of gender types was just ancillary info offered by the participants.

I do wonder though how a person could “somewhat agree”.
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Old 27th November 2019, 05:43 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Maybe they didn't want an answer to those questions. Maybe they wanted an answer to a different question - the one they actually asked. After all, they managed to eke out a fair amount of information from no answers to those questions.

I still think you're over-complicating this. I think that the question they actually wanted answered was "How many Australians believe that there are more than two genders?"
And they didn't get an answer to that question either, because many of the respondents conflated that question with other questions like "Are there more than 2 sexes?"

I'm really starting to feel like you're just ignoring what I'm saying at this point.

Quote:
What about you? Do you believe that there are more than two genders? Strongly agree, agree, don't know, disagree, or strongly disagree?
I'm honestly not really sure at this point. I think that most aspects of gender can be viewed as either masculine or feminine, at least within any particular cultural context. But different people will have different mixes of those different traits, falling more toward masculine in one trait and more toward feminine in another. So I'm not really sure that a specific gender is actually a useful concept for everyone.

On the other hand I think that for any particular trait there is a continuum that ranges somewhere between masculine and feminine, and with regards to gender there are only those two that any particular trait will have a measure of.
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Old 27th November 2019, 06:10 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I do wonder though how a person could “somewhat agree”.
If one were to believe (e.g.) the proposition is true if interpreted in terms of gender identity, but false if interpreted in terms of gender expression.
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Old 27th November 2019, 07:39 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Re: definitional issues, I occasionally find it a useful and enlightening exercise to attempt to restate a proposition while avoiding the key terms under dispute.

I don't generally follow this advice, as careful readers have probably noticed, but it seems worth a shot in this case.

The original proposition to be affirmed or rejected was "There are more than two genders."

My rephrase would be something like "There are more than two ways to signal one's affiliation and compliance with a set of social norms based on sex."

I'm still unsure whether that's true or not, though.
This presupposes a there are a set of social norms based on. Furthermore, if those norms follow from biological sex itself there is no need for a distinction between sex and gender. The question for me is whether there this leaves any relevant distinction and I just don’t see it.

Certainly distinctions these exist, but should be codified into gender or even retained at all and I can’t think of any that should. There is also going to be a need for patterns of dress, speech, behavior, etc expected of people based on social role or sexuality, relationship availability, but these are not synonymous with gender either.

Consider the Trumped up controversy a couple years ago about being transgender in the US military. In an environment where everyone is expected to look, act, dress and conduct themselves in the same what would transgender even mean if we take biological sex out of the equation? What meaningful thing could you come up with to distinguish a biologically male soldier who “identifies” as female vs one who “identifies” as male? They are already expected to look, act, dress and carry themselves the same way so what exactly are they identifying themselves with?
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Old 27th November 2019, 07:42 AM   #260
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maybe it really is just Male, Female, Neuter and Confused. End thread.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:31 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This presupposes a there are a set of social norms based on [sex].
Yes, it does. We typically call these norms masculinity and femininity. There may yet emerge a third set of social norms, which we might call neuterinity, governing those who choose to opt out of the masculine/feminine spectrum altogether.

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Furthermore, if those norms follow from biological sex itself there is no need for a distinction between sex and gender.
Some gendered social norms probably do follow from genuine differences between the sexes (e.g. men are expected to be more aggressive in the boardroom and the bedroom) but others are essentially arbitrary (e.g. girls wear pink, boys wear blue).

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What meaningful thing could you come up with to distinguish a biologically male soldier who “identifies” as female vs one who “identifies” as male?
Dress code.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:13 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Some gendered social norms probably do follow from genuine differences between the sexes (e.g. men are expected to be more aggressive in the boardroom and the bedroom)
Biology predisposes younger males to be more aggressive, but why do we need to extend this into a generalized assumption of how people should behave? It’s not even something consistent with age. In men testosterone declines with age while in women estrogen declines with age. This tends to even out the disparities that exist in the 20’s, does this mean “gender” is age dependant?

Also, why would we lump a bunch of different traits together and say because you have behave a certain way in one situation, there are now rules for how you should behave in another because that is your “gender”
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
others are essentially arbitrary (e.g. girls wear pink, boys wear blue).
If pink for girls, blue for boys is arbitrary and pointless gender based on this would be equally arbitrary and pointless.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Dress code.
Other than some differences in hair, dress codes for everyday working uniforms are essentially identical.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:34 AM   #263
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I think gender is a useful concept exactly because it is distinct from biological sex - it kind of posits the question which are "natural" fundamental biological aspects and which are only loosely and not necessarily at all rationally and empirically attached cultural and local attributes. If we lack this dimension we tend to automatically and unquestioningly also adopt these ambiguous and possibly totally illogical aspects. Like in Victorian age the wide spread believe that women simpöly lacked the brains and nerves to be doctors or attend higher education etc. (Also those individuals who do not conform to the cultural and social stereotypes can have really - and totally needlessly - hard time in these kinds semimodern or premodern societies.)
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Old 27th November 2019, 06:10 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Other than some differences in hair, dress codes for everyday working uniforms are essentially identical.
Which nation, which branch of service, which decade?
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Old 27th November 2019, 06:40 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
And they didn't get an answer to that question either, because many of the respondents conflated that question with other questions like "Are there more than 2 sexes?"

I'm really starting to feel like you're just ignoring what I'm saying at this point.
If I am, it's because I feel like you're pointlessly splitting hairs that there is no need to split.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm honestly not really sure at this point. I think that most aspects of gender can be viewed as either masculine or feminine, at least within any particular cultural context. But different people will have different mixes of those different traits, falling more toward masculine in one trait and more toward feminine in another. So I'm not really sure that a specific gender is actually a useful concept for everyone.

On the other hand I think that for any particular trait there is a continuum that ranges somewhere between masculine and feminine, and with regards to gender there are only those two that any particular trait will have a measure of.
In other words, yes, you believe that there are more than two genders.
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Old 28th November 2019, 01:02 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If I am, it's because I feel like you're pointlessly splitting hairs that there is no need to split.
I don't think so, but even if that's your view you could make that clear rather than ignoring the point I've been making.

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In other words, yes, you believe that there are more than two genders.
No, I think there are two genders that different people express to varying degrees.

Similarly I think that there are three directions, but every object exists at a different point in space.

But I can also understand someone else who uses the word in a slightly different way defining ranges along that continuum as distinct genders. They would just be using the word gender in a different way to me.

So while that person would say "there are more than 2 genders" and I would say "there are only 2 genders", we would actually believe the same things about the facts.

Which has basically been my point.
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Old 28th November 2019, 09:22 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
If pink for girls, blue for boys is arbitrary and pointless gender based on this would be equally arbitrary and pointless.
Not if "gender" is taken to mean what I think it should be taken to mean.

In that case, the colors are an arbitrary code which signals something about one's sense of self. (Or, in the case of children, something else.)
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Last edited by d4m10n; 28th November 2019 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 28th November 2019, 11:14 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not if "gender" is taken to mean what I think it should be taken to mean.

In that case, the colors are an arbitrary code which signals something about one's sense of self. (Or, in the case of children, something else.)
I said it’s arbitrary and pointless. What you effectively suggesting in this case is that having a color preference defines gender and gender exists so we signal something about our color preference. If it’s something that actually matters we have probably already described it and don’t need to introduce a new concept.
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Old 28th November 2019, 01:42 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Biology predisposes younger males to be more aggressive, but why do we need to extend this into a generalized assumption of how people should behave? It’s not even something consistent with age. In men testosterone declines with age while in women estrogen declines with age. This tends to even out the disparities that exist in the 20’s, does this mean “gender” is age dependant?
It is, though. Boys are not men, until they're old enough to change through puberty and be accepted as a man. Girls are not women, until they're old enough to change through puberty and be impregnated. It is strictly society's call as to whether or not all females are lumped into the same gender restrictions, or if there are multiple paths available, all with their own restrictions. Kinda makes us all transgender, we all transition at puberty from the child genders to adult ones.

'Man-souled women' were warriors who dressed as men, fought as men, and took wives, but they were still female. Thai pretty-boys dress as women, paint their faces as women, and behave as women, but still call themselves men and remain male. Society determines what expression looks like, what is acceptable, and we as part of society can make changes if enough of us choose to.
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Old 28th November 2019, 03:36 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Re: definitional issues, I occasionally find it a useful and enlightening exercise to attempt to restate a proposition while avoiding the key terms under dispute.

I don't generally follow this advice, as careful readers have probably noticed, but it seems worth a shot in this case.
That advice is silly, since rephrasing a statement so as to remove the problematic term is defining the term. Look:

Quote:
The original proposition to be affirmed or rejected was "There are more than two genders."

My rephrase would be something like "There are more than two ways to signal one's affiliation and compliance with a set of social norms based on sex."
You've defined "gender" as "a way to signal one's affiliation and compliance with a set of social norms based on sex" - that's exactly what you did.
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Old 28th November 2019, 05:00 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
No, I think there are two genders that different people express to varying degrees.

Similarly I think that there are three directions, but every object exists at a different point in space.

But I can also understand someone else who uses the word in a slightly different way defining ranges along that continuum as distinct genders. They would just be using the word gender in a different way to me.

So while that person would say "there are more than 2 genders" and I would say "there are only 2 genders", we would actually believe the same things about the facts.

Which has basically been my point.
You are saying that there are only two genders, then going on to explain that you actually think that there are more than two genders. Those two statements directly contradict each other - I can't see any way of interpreting them otherwise.

From my point of view it looks like you are defending your right to acknowledge that there are more than two genders by saying "there are only two genders" and that doesn't make sense to me, so I must be severely misinterpreting what you're saying.
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Old 28th November 2019, 05:02 PM   #272
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Also, I cannot understand how a person can look at the continuum of gender identity, gender expression and gender roles and say "there are only two genders". That person has to be blind.
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Old 28th November 2019, 05:35 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Also, I cannot understand how a person can look at the continuum of gender identity, gender expression and gender roles and say "there are only two genders". That person has to be blind.
Can you give an example of one of these things I am blindly missing, some characteristic that says something about a person's gender.
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Old 28th November 2019, 05:43 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can you give an example of one of these things I am blindly missing, some characteristic that says something about a person's gender.
The obvious fact that people identify as and express more than two genders, perhaps?
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Old 28th November 2019, 05:46 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The obvious fact that people identify as and express more than two genders, perhaps?
Just one or two examples of how this is expressed will do.
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Old 28th November 2019, 05:58 PM   #276
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If something is so very obvious that I must be blind not to see it then it should not be difficult to give me an actual example.

The example obviously can't be a trans man or a trans woman, nor someone who claims to have no gender (unless not having a gender is considered a gender).
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:00 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Just one or two examples of how this is expressed will do.
I wasn't as manly as my male friend, but I was more manly than my other male friend. That's a spectrum in being a male, right there.
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:04 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I wasn't as manly as my male friend, but I was more manly than my other male friend. That's a spectrum in being a male, right there.
So "being less manly than someone else" is a gender?

Can you give an example of the more manly characteristics and the less manly ones?
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:07 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Just one or two examples of how this is expressed will do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...der_identities

Take a look through the list and tell me that every one of them falls into a gender binary.
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:19 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...der_identities

Take a look through the list and tell me that every one of them falls into a gender binary.
I still have no idea what people here mean by "gender" never mind "gender binary".

But let's take the list and take out things like "agender" and "transgender" (since a trans woman says she is a woman and a trans man says he is a man).

We have this, right?

Gender non-conforming
Genderqueer
Hijra
Kathoey
Lhamana
Māhū
Non-binary
Plural
Queer
genderfluid
Two-Spirit
X-gender
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