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Old 28th November 2019, 06:32 PM   #281
Robin
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Let's take "genderqueer" for a start:

"denoting or relating to a person who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders."

Now I can still only see two genders referred to here, "male" and "female" and no clue as to what these terms mean.
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:35 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I still have no idea what people here mean by "gender" never mind "gender binary".
Gender binary is "there are only two genders".
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:37 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Let's take "genderqueer" for a start:

"denoting or relating to a person who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders."

Now I can still only see two genders referred to here, "male" and "female" and no clue as to what these terms mean.
No, you also see "neither" and "both" and "combination".
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:38 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Gender binary is "there are only two genders".
So when someone identifies as "non-binary", they mean that they are a person who does not believe there are only two genders?
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:39 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, you also see "neither" and "both" and "combination".
So not having a gender counts as a gender?
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:44 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So when someone identifies as "non-binary", they mean that they are a person who does not believe there are only two genders?
No, it means that they do not identify or express as either male or female. To do so, one would need to understand that there are more than two genders, but that's not what the term refers to.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So not having a gender counts as a gender?
Paradoxically, yes. It is a form of gender identity or gender expression. The paradox explains itself when you realise that there are more than two genders, and agender is one of them.
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:47 PM   #287
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So my gender is "not having any idea what people mean when they say 'gender'", right?
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:48 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So my gender is "not having any idea what people mean when they say 'gender'", right?
No, because it doesn't refer to what you think or believe about gender, it refers to how you identify or express your gender.
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:51 PM   #289
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Let me try to see if I can understand this another way.

Can someone give me a characterstic that one might have if one was male, a characterstic that one might have if one was female and a characterstic one might have if someone was "non-binary".
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:52 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, because it doesn't refer to what you think or believe about gender, it refers to how you identify or express your gender.
So how do I go about finding what my gender is then?
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:58 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Let me try to see if I can understand this another way.

Can someone give me a characterstic that one might have if one was male, a characterstic that one might have if one was female and a characterstic one might have if someone was "non-binary".
Someone who is male will identify and/or express as male. Someone who is female will identify and/or express as female. And someone who is nonbinary will identify and/or express as nonbinary.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So how do I go about finding what my gender is then?
What do you think your gender is?

That's what it is.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:01 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What do you think your gender is?


Quote:
That's what it is.
Sounds dodgy, being a contradiction and all.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:02 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What do you think your gender is?

That's what it is.
I don't know what my gender is.

So that is my gender?
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:05 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Someone who is male will identify and/or express as male. Someone who is female will identify and/or express as female. And someone who is nonbinary will identify and/or express as nonbinary.
Wow, that really helps.

"What is a bargwombler?"

"A bargwombler is something that has bargwombler characteristics".

So no you know exactly what "bargwombler" means, right?
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Last edited by Robin; 28th November 2019 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:15 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I don't know what my gender is.

So that is my gender?
It might be. But I didn't ask you what your gender is. I asked you what you think your gender is.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:17 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You are saying that there are only two genders, then going on to explain that you actually think that there are more than two genders. Those two statements directly contradict each other - I can't see any way of interpreting them otherwise.

From my point of view it looks like you are defending your right to acknowledge that there are more than two genders by saying "there are only two genders" and that doesn't make sense to me, so I must be severely misinterpreting what you're saying.
Because you and I mean different things by the term gender, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I'm using the term. But you are unwilling to try to understand how I am using that term.

And I think many of the poll respondents also understand the term in the way that I do (and some probably understand it in other ways as well).
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:19 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It might be. But I didn't ask you what your gender is. I asked you what you think your gender is.
The distinction is lost on me.

If I have no idea what my gender is then clearly I have no idea what I think my gender is.

In order to know any of those things I would have to have at least a tiny idea of what "gender" means, which I don't.

I don't even have a hint as to how I would go about finding out what "gender" means.

And everyone who allegedly does know what it means, won't just say it straight out, for some reason.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:20 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Wow, that really helps.
Well here's the thing. You don't really need to know someone else's gender. You just need to know what pronouns they would like you to use, and the best way to find that out is to ask. So long as you do so politely, they won't mind. Notice that I offer my own pronouns in my sig. I've been thinking of moving them to my custom title, since some people have sigs turned off.

What pronouns would you like me to use to refer to you, Robin? Your forum handle is gender-ambiguous, so I would default to them/they, but if you have a preference for something else, I'll use those instead.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:23 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well here's the thing. You don't really need to know someone else's gender. You just need to know what pronouns they would like you to use, and the best way to find that out is to ask. So long as you do so politely, they won't mind. Notice that I offer my own pronouns in my sig. I've been thinking of moving them to my custom title, since some people have sigs turned off.

What pronouns would you like me to use to refer to you, Robin? Your forum handle is gender-ambiguous, so I would default to them/they, but if you have a preference for something else, I'll use those instead.
I will answer to "Hi" or to any loud cry.

I have no preference.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:28 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The distinction is lost on me.

If I have no idea what my gender is then clearly I have no idea what I think my gender is.

In order to know any of those things I would have to have at least a tiny idea of what "gender" means, which I don't.

I don't even have a hint as to how I would go about finding out what "gender" means.

And everyone who allegedly does know what it means, won't just say it straight out, for some reason.
That's because it means different things to different people, which, yes, is what Roboramma has been arguing all along. Only you can determine what your gender is.

Try this. Think to yourself "Robin is female. I am female." Does that sound right to you? Are you comfortable with it? If so, you might be female. If that sounds wrong, you're probably not male. Think to yourself "Robin is male. I am male." If that sounds better, then you might be female. If neither sounds right, then you might be nonbinary or agender. And that's okay. You are in control of your gender.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:30 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I will answer to "Hi" or to any loud cry.

I have no preference.
Okay, I will continue to use they/them. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:32 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's because it means different things to different people, which, yes, is what Roboramma has been arguing all along. Only you can determine what your gender is.

Try this. Think to yourself "Robin is female. I am female." Does that sound right to you? Are you comfortable with it?
How can I even begin that exercise unless I have at least the beginnings of a hint of what "female" means?

If you think I do then you have not been paying any close attention to what I said.

You many as well have asked me if I am comfortable with "Robin is bargwombler".
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:32 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Because you and I mean different things by the term gender, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I'm using the term. But you are unwilling to try to understand how I am using that term.

And I think many of the poll respondents also understand the term in the way that I do (and some probably understand it in other ways as well).
Yes, I accept your understanding of the term. I just think that the poll was intended to capture all interpretations rather than narrowing it down to any specific interpretation. Yours and mine. And Robin's. All wrapped up into a single question. It was made as broad as possible, because the creators of the survey - who are very experienced and skilled surveyors - know that gender means different things to different people. If they had wanted to capture only one interpretation, they would have asked the question differently.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:35 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
How can I even begin that exercise unless I have at least the beginnings of a hint of what "female" means?

If you think I do then you have not been paying any close attention to what I said.

You many as well have asked me if I am comfortable with "Robin is bargwombler".
If the words "male" and "female" literally carry no more meaning for you than "bargwombler" then you may indeed be nonbinary. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:41 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If the words "male" and "female" literally carry no more meaning for you than "bargwombler" then you may indeed be nonbinary. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
If you divorce them from physical characteristics then, no, they carry no more meaning thatn "bargwombler".

I suspect that you are in the same boat since you cannot express what these things mean to you. I suspect everyone here is in the same boat.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:53 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If you divorce them from physical characteristics then, no, they carry no more meaning thatn "bargwombler".

I suspect that you are in the same boat since you cannot express what these things mean to you. I suspect everyone here is in the same boat.
No, I strongly feel that I am male. "Arthwollipot is female" just sounds wrong to me. I have a firm grasp on my gender identity, and it is male.

A majority of people have a fairly strong feeling about their own gender. Those who don't are off the gender binary, and society has been generally crappy to them throughout history. We're starting to get better about it, but there's still a way to go before full acceptance.
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Old 28th November 2019, 07:55 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, I strongly feel that I am male. "Arthwollipot is female" just sounds wrong to me. I have a firm grasp on my gender identity, and it is male.

A majority of people have a fairly strong feeling about their own gender. Those who don't are off the gender binary, and society has been generally crappy to them throughout history. We're starting to get better about it, but there's still a way to go before full acceptance.
So why can't anyone express what it means?
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Old 28th November 2019, 08:04 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So why can't anyone express what it means?
Because that's hard to do. I can no more express what it feels like to be male than I can express what it feels like to see the colour red.
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Old 28th November 2019, 08:07 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Because that's hard to do. I can no more express what it feels like to be male than I can express what it feels like to see the colour red.
But you could point to something and say "That looks red to me" and point to something else and say "That looks green to me". And even if I were colour blind I could learn what you meant by "red".

I don't have any way of learning what you mean by "male".
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Old 28th November 2019, 08:07 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well here's the thing. You don't really need to know someone else's gender. You just need to know what pronouns they would like you to use, and the best way to find that out is to ask. So long as you do so politely, they won't mind. Notice that I offer my own pronouns in my sig. I've been thinking of moving them to my custom title, since some people have sigs turned off.

What pronouns would you like me to use to refer to you, Robin? Your forum handle is gender-ambiguous, so I would default to them/they, but if you have a preference for something else, I'll use those instead.
The hilite is the part that interests me. I cannot conceive of a situation where I would ask that question of a person. The only pronoun I would use when talking to a person is “you”. I have never encountered a person who chose to tell me the pronouns they would like me to use should I choose to discuss that person with a third party. I have never discussed a person with a third party and had that third party use pronouns other than “she”, “her”, “he”, “him”. It seems to me that if it is important to a person that certain pronouns are to be used when referring to them then the onus is on that person to make their preferences known. Further, if unconventional pronouns are expected to be used by a second party it is still unreasonable to assume that those pronouns will be understood by a third party. Absent a specific request expressed by .the otherwise gendered person it is not unreasonable to use the pronouns consistent with their outward appearance
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Old 28th November 2019, 08:18 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Wow, that really helps.

"What is a bargwombler?"

"A bargwombler is something that has bargwombler characteristics".

So no you know exactly what "bargwombler" means, right?
Words like bargwombler always trigger some sort of Douglas Adams flashback for me.

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. And all dared to brave unknown terrors, to do mighty deeds, to boldly split infinitives that no man had split before--and thus was the Empire forged.
...In these enlightened days, of course, no one believes a word of it.”

*I'll guess he'd deem this entire 'gender' debate a half-witted circle of irrelevant posturing. And no one would be offended as they wouldn't be exactly sure what he means.
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Old 28th November 2019, 08:57 PM   #312
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So why can't anyone express what it means?

Because it's complete Fantasy Island bullturds. I read the last 25 or so posts just now between you and a few others - reads like an astrology thread in the woo section.

Quote:
That's because it means different things to different people, which, yes, is what Roboramma has been arguing all along. Only you can determine what your gender is.

Which makes it completely meaningless.

No straight answers because they aren't possible.
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Old 28th November 2019, 09:40 PM   #313
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The hilite is the part that interests me. I cannot conceive of a situation where I would ask that question of a person. The only pronoun I would use when talking to a person is “you”.
We're referring to third-person pronouns here.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I have never encountered a person who chose to tell me the pronouns they would like me to use should I choose to discuss that person with a third party. I have never discussed a person with a third party and had that third party use pronouns other than “she”, “her”, “he”, “him”.
Yes you have. I've told you my pronouns. Anyway, your lack of experience of the problem is not evidence that it isn't a problem.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
It seems to me that if it is important to a person that certain pronouns are to be used when referring to them then the onus is on that person to make their preferences known.
That's one reason I've proactively given you mine. I encourage people to offer their pronouns without being asked. But it doesn't always happen.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Further, if unconventional pronouns are expected to be used by a second party it is still unreasonable to assume that those pronouns will be understood by a third party.
Very few people use unconventional pronouns. A lot of unconventional nongendered pronouns have been suggested over the years, and none of them have stuck enough to become universal, or even common. Today, three basic pronouns will get you by in almost all situations: he/him, she/her, and they/them. All of which are extremely easy to understand.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Absent a specific request expressed by .the otherwise gendered person it is not unreasonable to use the pronouns consistent with their outward appearance
The problem with using the pronouns that match outward appearance is that pronouns do not always match outward appearance. There are women who present as men, but use she/her. And there are people who don't strongly present as male or female at all. This is Dr Meg-John Barker. What pronouns would you use for this person?

In most cases you won't get into any trouble by assuming pronouns. In most cases. But misgendering someone can cause real distress, and it is better not to. Most people who care about pronouns will thank you for asking.
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Old 28th November 2019, 09:57 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And there are people who don't strongly present as male or female at all. This is Dr Meg-John Barker. What pronouns would you use for this person?
I am old enough to remember when someone wearing a cloth cap, tweed jacket and short back and sides would be considered as dressing like a man.
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Old 28th November 2019, 10:09 PM   #315
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am old enough to remember when someone wearing a cloth cap, tweed jacket and short back and sides would be considered as dressing like a man.
Right, but a person can dress like a man and not identify as male. If you were going to assume this person's pronoun, which would you use?
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Old 28th November 2019, 10:13 PM   #316
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Or how about Rae Spoon? What pronouns would you use when talking about this person?
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Old 28th November 2019, 10:42 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Or how about Rae Spoon? What pronouns would you use when talking about this person?
I am not sure what point you are making.

You could give me a link to Sylvester Stallone or Kim Kardashian and I wouldn't be able to answer about what pronouns to use if they have not expressed a preference because I don't know what the gender of the pronoun refers to if no-one will tell me.
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Old 28th November 2019, 11:01 PM   #318
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am not sure what point you are making.

You could give me a link to Sylvester Stallone or Kim Kardashian and I wouldn't be able to answer about what pronouns to use if they have not expressed a preference because I don't know what the gender of the pronoun refers to if no-one will tell me.
Okay. It sounds to me like using they/them as a default would be a good policy for you to adopt unless you're sure. That's what I try to do, and I've only had one person complain - and that person was strongly of the opinion that there are only two genders. That was not a productive conversation.

Incidentally, both of the people I linked to use they/them.
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Old 28th November 2019, 11:55 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay. It sounds to me like using they/them as a default would be a good policy for you to adopt unless you're sure. That's what I try to do, and I've only had one person complain - and that person was strongly of the opinion that there are only two genders. That was not a productive conversation.

Incidentally, both of the people I linked to use they/them.
So the one and only criterion for distinguishing gender is a person's stated preference?

But there must have been something about those people you linked which led you to the conclusion that they weren't expressing a particular gender. What could they have done differently that would have qualified as expressing a gender.
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Old 29th November 2019, 12:09 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So the one and only criterion for distinguishing gender is a person's stated preference?
Yes! Now you're getting it.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But there must have been something about those people you linked which led you to the conclusion that they weren't expressing a particular gender. What could they have done differently that would have qualified as expressing a gender.
They could have stated a different preference.

If you look at this list, you'll see a wide variety of stated gender identities - nonbinary, genderfluid, transgender, androgynous - and every one is listed that way because they stated their preference.
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