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Old 24th November 2019, 03:48 AM   #81
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I can see how somebody comparing himself to higher earners rather than lower earners might have a warped perception, because the income distribution is so skewed with high frequency at the low end and an extended tail at the high end. The difference between 80k and multi-millionaires is so much greater than the difference between a low income and 80k.
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Old 24th November 2019, 04:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Guess it would depend on if that was his household income. In New Jersey, that would barely have him in the top 30%. As others have said, his location and situation can definitely skew his outlook on this.
That is his income. And that is what he was complaining about.
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Old 24th November 2019, 04:29 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I can see how somebody comparing himself to higher earners rather than lower earners might have a warped perception, because the income distribution is so skewed with high frequency at the low end and an extended tail at the high end. The difference between 80k and multi-millionaires is so much greater than the difference between a low income and 80k.
Strongly disagree. At 80 thousand he can have a nice home, afford several holidays a year, save for the future and a rainy day and increased pension when retiring, can splash out on nice things when he wants.

A millionaire can just do those things "bigger".

Someone on 15 thousand a year, won't be able to afford a nice home, afford several holidays a year, save for the future and a rainy day and increased pension when retiring and won't be able to splash out on nice things when he wants. They will be juggling bills and payments, probably hoping the gas tokens will last to next pay day, and dreading a major appliance like a cooker or washing machine (assuming they've got one of course) breaking down or they won't get that extra 8 hours at work this week.

The guy on 80 thousand is as far as the person on 15 thousand a year is concerned as remote as the millionaire.
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Old 24th November 2019, 04:47 AM   #84
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He also bizarrely claimed that every solicitor and doctor earned more than him which is bollocks.

He is clearly just another Tory twat.
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Old 24th November 2019, 05:10 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Strongly disagree. At 80 thousand he can have a nice home, afford several holidays a year, save for the future and a rainy day and increased pension when retiring, can splash out on nice things when he wants.

A millionaire can just do those things "bigger".

Someone on 15 thousand a year, won't be able to afford a nice home, afford several holidays a year, save for the future and a rainy day and increased pension when retiring and won't be able to splash out on nice things when he wants. They will be juggling bills and payments, probably hoping the gas tokens will last to next pay day, and dreading a major appliance like a cooker or washing machine (assuming they've got one of course) breaking down or they won't get that extra 8 hours at work this week.

The guy on 80 thousand is as far as the person on 15 thousand a year is concerned as remote as the millionaire.
I think you are missing my point. I'm talking about the statistical properties of the distribution and the extended tail at the high end. It means somebody with an income higher than the majority of people in percentiles can still have a perception that they are at the low end of the distribution because they fail to consider its asymmetrical shape and that those at the high end are few in number.

It also leads to misconceptions when people use the mean rather than median to report average income, because the mean is pulled upwards by small numbers of high earners. Some people mistakenly think that average means 'typical' and therefore that the majority of people have somewhere around that income. Since the distribution is skewed, the majority have less and a small minority much more.

Last edited by Elaedith; 24th November 2019 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 24th November 2019, 05:11 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He also bizarrely claimed that every solicitor and doctor earned more than him which is bollocks.

He is clearly just another Tory twat.
How much do you earn so I can judge you?
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Old 24th November 2019, 05:41 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
How much do you earn so I can judge you?
He wasn't judging the bloke on how much he earned so how does the poster's income come into it?
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Old 24th November 2019, 05:55 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Not to mention that he's completely wrong. If his salary is actually 80,000 then he won't pay any more under Labour, as that is the point the tax increase kicks in.

If his salary moves up to 81,000, then he'd be paying an entire 1 a week more. But apparently that is too upsetting for him.
The guy is a dumbkopf as all he need do is bung the surplus into a pension plan and he gets it all back. Or somehow claim it as an 'expense' when filing his tax returns.

He was just grandstanding.
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Old 24th November 2019, 06:02 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think a good way to understand how that class and wealth works, is to understand the inheritance system.

I worked with a lady whose family own a large estate in Scotland. But it all went to her elder brother and she was the youngest of four. The family were land rich but cash poor. As a result, in her 50s, she lived in a small house in a poor area and did some pretty low paid jobs.

But she was very much upper class the way she spoke, her attitude and manners (she had been sent to finishing school).
Exactly. In my time, I have worked for Hardy Amies (Mayfair bespoke tailor) and Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber (Really Useful group) and I appeared to be the only one there who actually needed the money. The rest were a bunch of Sloane Rangers - in fabulous expensive clothes - who were simply passing time, dahling, until they married someone with a pile in the country.

Great places to work. Nice long lunches.
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Old 24th November 2019, 06:10 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No idea. It has been a long time since I lived in England

Was just going by the thread title


And this

Does earning 80,000 or more put you in top 5% of UK earners?
This reminds me, I really appreciated how the guy on the panel answered him back, when he claimed 'the top 5% would only apply to lawyers and people like that': 'I was a solicitor and I only got 40K'.
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Old 24th November 2019, 06:15 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Agree with that

Dude is a bit of an idiot who should ask for a pay rise or move somewhere cheaper.

(Assuming it is as I suspect and he lives in a large city)

We have the same thing here with people moaning about living in Auckland.

It is like... "tough tits. If it is that bad move ffs"

No, no, no. You simply don't ask someone who lives in Notting Hill, Chelsea or Hampstead to downsize to Peckham or Rotherhithe.

Honestly!
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Old 24th November 2019, 06:23 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He also bizarrely claimed that every solicitor and doctor earned more than him which is bollocks.

He is clearly just another Tory twat.
Some do. It depends on whether they are in a profitable partnership (usually) or not. The average earnings of each (accountancy) partner at a city firm I once worked for was staggering, with the ones specialising in insolvency practice being best paid of all at >2m pa. However, first, you need to be successful. A successful law firm partner can expect similar. Doctors, dentists, likewise.
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Old 24th November 2019, 06:45 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He also bizarrely claimed that every solicitor and doctor earned more than him which is bollocks.

He is clearly just another Tory twat.
His interest in politics clearly didn't go so far as following the junior doctor's dispute or the recent rules covering disclosure of GPs earnings. Very senior doctors in the NHS and private practice sure, but all doctors, or even a majority, not a chance.
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Old 24th November 2019, 12:25 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I think you are missing my point. I'm talking about the statistical properties of the distribution and the extended tail at the high end. It means somebody with an income higher than the majority of people in percentiles can still have a perception that they are at the low end of the distribution because they fail to consider its asymmetrical shape and that those at the high end are few in number.

It also leads to misconceptions when people use the mean rather than median to report average income, because the mean is pulled upwards by small numbers of high earners. Some people mistakenly think that average means 'typical' and therefore that the majority of people have somewhere around that income. Since the distribution is skewed, the majority have less and a small minority much more.
Still, you'd think an adult in the top 5% of earnings of an industrialized nation would have a basic understanding of grade school mathematics.
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Old 24th November 2019, 01:16 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Still, you'd think an adult in the top 5% of earnings of an industrialized nation would have a basic understanding of grade school mathematics.
True, but then one would also believe he would know the median income, what doctors earn, etc....
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Old 24th November 2019, 02:15 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
True, but then one would also believe he would know the median income, what doctors earn, etc....
The relatively poor pay of Junior Doctors was part of a major news story not so long ago. Of course one of the features of our time is that people who would never have expressed an interest in politics pre June 16 and who have only paid attention to one side if one issue now think they're authorities.
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Old 25th November 2019, 01:49 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
He used a US definition in a UK context, where it doesn't work.
You mean of the term "middle class", correct? And you were not able to translate what he was saying in such a way that it made sense in a UK context?
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Old 25th November 2019, 02:17 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Still, you'd think an adult in the top 5% of earnings of an industrialized nation would have a basic understanding of grade school mathematics.
Why would you think that ?

That would assume that the person would require an understanding of grade school mathematics to be in the top 5% of earners. There are some high paying jobs that require no numeracy skills at all.

I guess the person referenced in the OP just believed his own hype and/or got carried away with his own rhetoric.

80k p.a. is a lot of money to most people, but if you earn that much but hang around with people who earn considerably more, you might think that you're not in the economic "elite". Certainly that was my experience working in the City. I was well-paid (well within the top 5%) but my annual salary was less than some of the monthly bonuses of the traders and senior managers I was working with.

The "not in the top 50%" was IMO hyperbole.
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Old 25th November 2019, 02:46 AM   #99
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A Brit on twitter pointed out that he too was on 80k + and that the tax rise would cost him an extra 17 per month. He also pointed out that he had just spent 22 on a bottle of wine and really didn't care about the bit of extra income tax
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Old 25th November 2019, 02:49 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You might want to check your math on that one. At 45%, he'd be paying 450 quid extra per year or about 9 pounds more a week.
I've just checked that against the Boris Johnson Guide to Simple Arithmetic, and it turns out you're exactly right!

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Old 25th November 2019, 03:22 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I've just checked that against the Boris Johnson Guide to Simple Arithmetic, and it turns out you're exactly right!

Dave
Does it cover difficult mathematical principals like distinguishing between mean & median, calculating marginal rates, and tying sheets together to sneak out the back window when your lover's husband gets home unexpectedly?
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Old 25th November 2019, 04:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Strongly disagree. At 80 thousand he can have a nice home, afford several holidays a year, save for the future and a rainy day and increased pension when retiring, can splash out on nice things when he wants.

A millionaire can just do those things "bigger".

Someone on 15 thousand a year, won't be able to afford a nice home, afford several holidays a year, save for the future and a rainy day and increased pension when retiring and won't be able to splash out on nice things when he wants. They will be juggling bills and payments, probably hoping the gas tokens will last to next pay day, and dreading a major appliance like a cooker or washing machine (assuming they've got one of course) breaking down or they won't get that extra 8 hours at work this week.

The guy on 80 thousand is as far as the person on 15 thousand a year is concerned as remote as the millionaire.
I disagree. People who make 80k and people who make 15k may have different qualities of life but they still have the same behaviors: they both still have to get up and go to work every day. A millionaire, by contrast, doesn't have to work at all. They have enough money they could just stop working and spend the remainder of their lives in idle luxury. That's radically different from the other two. The other two are different qualities of the same thing, the millionaires are a different thing altogether.
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Old 25th November 2019, 04:43 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A Brit on twitter pointed out that he too was on 80k + and that the tax rise would cost him an extra 17 per month. He also pointed out that he had just spent 22 on a bottle of wine and really didn't care about the bit of extra income tax
He must be on 84,000 pa in that case.
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Old 25th November 2019, 06:19 AM   #104
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At my highest earning point, for that year, I was on the 84th percentile. I asked colleagues one day about where they thought they came and most thought average to below average. I think most people do not realise where they come in the grand scale of things.
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Old 25th November 2019, 06:29 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The guy ranting certainly didn't come across as upper middle class by UK standards (which are not based solely on income).
Honestly how can someone who can't even afford a full time maid be remotely called middle class, does the term mean nothing anymore?
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Old 25th November 2019, 09:47 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
To avoid confusion you can always use the term "middle income" instead.
I don't think there was any actual confusion.
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Old 25th November 2019, 10:13 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Honestly how can someone who can't even afford a full time maid be remotely called middle class, does the term mean nothing anymore?
Being a servant for someone doesn't necessarily make you lower class. For example the queen's servants are upper class ladies, literally "ladies in waiting".
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Old 25th November 2019, 10:17 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Being a servant for someone doesn't necessarily make you lower class. For example the queen's servants are upper class ladies, literally "ladies in waiting".
Waiting for a signal from the queen, whereupon they will explode into action as superpowered champions of justice! There is Maid of Honor, Ready Maid, Maid in the USA, Maid To Measure, French Maid, and Maid To Be Broken. Together they will use their maid powers to fight evil, defend the monarchy, and protect the planet from alien invaders!
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Old 25th November 2019, 10:50 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
and protect the planet from alien invaders!
Oh, boy. They're going to be kicking themselves if they ever see the queen out of her human suit.
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Old 25th November 2019, 10:59 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He also bizarrely claimed that every solicitor and doctor earned more than him which is bollocks.
Yeah, which he refused to accept he was wrong about, even when the ex-solicitor on the panel told him he was!
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Old 25th November 2019, 11:04 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You mean of the term "middle class", correct? And you were not able to translate what he was saying in such a way that it made sense in a UK context?
The US concept of middle class does not match the UK concept of middle class, being skewed downwards in comparison. Dropping it into a purely UK-orientated discussion makes about as much sense as starting to talk about National Insurance in a discussion about purely American taxes.
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Old 25th November 2019, 12:19 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Being a servant for someone doesn't necessarily make you lower class. For example the queen's servants are upper class ladies, literally "ladies in waiting".
Not being a servant, being too poor to afford servants means one certainly isn't middle class by any traditional definition of the word.

Traditionally the English monarch had his buttox wiped by only the most noble of hands of course.
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Old 25th November 2019, 01:39 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Being a servant for someone doesn't necessarily make you lower class. For example the queen's servants are upper class ladies, literally "ladies in waiting".
Average wage for a butler;

https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-chec...-butler-salary

57,500.
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Old 25th November 2019, 05:22 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A millionaire, by contrast, doesn't have to work at all. They have enough money they could just stop working and spend the remainder of their lives in idle luxury.
You seem to be a bit out of touch.

A millionaire who doesn't work to stay that way soon isn't. It may not be what you would call work, but most 'millionaires' have their money tied up in a business that could easily go bankrupt if not well managed (and sometimes even when it is). And many of the 'rich' people you see living the high life are actually up to their eyeballs in debt.

A middle-aged millionaire today could just stop working and spend the remainder of their life in idle luxury, but not if that is all they have. Lets say they give up their job at 40, and have no other assets than that $1M in the bank. Assume the interest only covers inflation, will the money last 40 years? If they are careful with it perhaps, but not if they live in idle luxury.
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Old 25th November 2019, 05:32 PM   #115
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't think I'd characterise 80k a year as rich. Upper middle-class.
depends how you define being in the top 5%, some people might define that as being rich.
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Old 25th November 2019, 05:33 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You seem to be a bit out of touch.

A millionaire who doesn't work to stay that way soon isn't. It may not be what you would call work, but most 'millionaires' have their money tied up in a business that could easily go bankrupt if not well managed (and sometimes even when it is). And many of the 'rich' people you see living the high life are actually up to their eyeballs in debt.

A middle-aged millionaire today could just stop working and spend the remainder of their life in idle luxury, but not if that is all they have. Lets say they give up their job at 40, and have no other assets than that $1M in the bank. Assume the interest only covers inflation, will the money last 40 years? If they are careful with it perhaps, but not if they live in idle luxury.
...Anyone who parks their sole $1M in a bank to earn interest probably wouldn't be able to get to $1M in the first place. That's just not how money works in this century.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:31 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The US concept of middle class does not match the UK concept of middle class, being skewed downwards in comparison. Dropping it into a purely UK-orientated discussion makes about as much sense as starting to talk about National Insurance in a discussion about purely American taxes.
If you read the post in context it's very clear that he wasn't talking about class, but about income. Feel free to read it again. Does the context of the post seem to you to be discussing class?

If you are saying "he shouldn't have used the term 'middle class'", that's a fine little correction. If you are saying that the meaning of the post was lost because he wrote "middle class" instead of "middle income", then I honestly don't believe you.
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:26 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
depends how you define being in the top 5%, some people might define that as being rich.
But this is income not assets.
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:15 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Average wage for a butler;

https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-chec...-butler-salary

57,500.
Good luck finding a position as one:

Even so, there were still around 30,000 butlers employed in Britain by World War II. As few as one hundred were estimated to remain by the mid-1980s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler...egotcompany-13
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Old 26th November 2019, 08:17 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
depends how you define being in the top 5%, some people might define that as being rich.
I'm sure some would. But statistics don't tell you much. Someone on 80k can't buy an aston martin and probably won't stay at the Hilton.
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