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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 14th January 2020, 02:25 PM   #1641
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Oh so now I am going to be damned* for autocorrect? Mind you it can at times be Diabolo.



*sorry for the use of such strong language..
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Old 14th January 2020, 07:00 PM   #1642
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have to be careful with your broadstroke that's not the real difference, many Protestant denominations also hold practicing what you preach is important. The major difference has always been that Protestantism holds that the only source of faith is the bible itself, the Roman Catholics hold the church itself is the holder of the faith.

Plus of course the RC church believes in the bread and wine actually being christ's blood and flesh.
Yes, thanks for the clarification. Like I have said previously, my experience is not with Catholocism directly.
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Old 14th January 2020, 07:08 PM   #1643
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea but they think Mother Teresa was actually providing health care so their standards of what constitutes good work are rather questionable. I mean clearly medical care isn't part of it. And for feeding the hungry, well only Christians need apply.
Mother Teresa was never part of Caritas - she formed her own ministry. And in Australia at least, Caritas is a signatory to the Australian Council for International Development's Code of Conduct which amongst other things stipulates that development activities must be separate and not dependent on ministry.
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Old 14th January 2020, 11:11 PM   #1644
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, thanks for the clarification. Like I have said previously, my experience is not with Catholocism directly.
And you need to careful with the label "catholic". Many Christian denominations consider themselves "catholic", for example the Church of England is a catholic Church, there is also the Orthodox catholic church (in fact there is more than one orthodox Catholic church!)

That's why I try to always say Roman catholic church or RCers or some indication I am talking about the Roman Catholic church if I use it as an example.
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Old 14th January 2020, 11:22 PM   #1645
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And you need to careful with the label "catholic". Many Christian denominations consider themselves "catholic", for example the Church of England is a catholic Church, there is also the Orthodox catholic church (in fact there is more than one orthodox Catholic church!)

That's why I try to always say Roman catholic church or RCers or some indication I am talking about the Roman Catholic church if I use it as an example.
I usually try to be specific by capitalising Catholic, but you're right, Roman Catholic is the term I should be using.

ETA: However, it does appear that "Catholic Church" is an accepted way of referring to the Roman Catholic Church if their Wikipedia page is anything to go by.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:56 AM   #1646
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I usually try to be specific by capitalising Catholic, but you're right, Roman Catholic is the term I should be using.

ETA: However, it does appear that "Catholic Church" is an accepted way of referring to the Roman Catholic Church if their Wikipedia page is anything to go by.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church
I agree in every day usage most people will assume you mean the RCC when you say "catholic" but I think when we are having discussions here especially when we are talking about who believes what we need to be clear which "catholicism" we are talking about.
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:05 PM   #1647
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This guy's argument does not make a lot of sense to me:

Brisbane Archbishop Mark Coleridge rejects proposed Queensland laws to report child abusers who confess

Quote:
Brisbane's Catholic Archbishop has made a formal submission opposing the State Government's plan to make priests report child sex offences revealed in the confessional.

Archbishop Mark Coleridge said while the church was unequivocally committed to the protection of children, breaking the confessional seal would "not make a difference to the safety of young people".

"The proposed legislation would make the priest at this vital point less a servant of God than an agent of the state," he wrote.

"Clergy have died because they have refused to submit to the claims of the state and preferred to defend the rights of the penitent before God and the rights of God before the penitent.

"It is claimed at times that the seal must be abolished in law because it is the linchpin of a culture of secrecy and cover-up.

"The Church rejects such a claim, insisting that the seal is the guarantee of a culture of true disclosure which is the opposite of cover-up."

...

Archbishop Coleridge said breaking the seal had practical limits, as most confessions were anonymous.

Furthermore, a perpetrator or victim might be less likely to raise abuse in confession if confidence in the sacramental seal was undermined.

"The seal recognises the right of the sinful human being to approach God in complete freedom," he wrote.

"It enables the penitent to speak openly before God ... to hide nothing from the God who sees all and forgives all."
Yeah, see, we don't care whether God sees it. We care whether the police see it. Child abuse isn't just a sin, it's a crime.
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:07 PM   #1648
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I agree in every day usage most people will assume you mean the RCC when you say "catholic" but I think when we are having discussions here especially when we are talking about who believes what we need to be clear which "catholicism" we are talking about.
I don't think so. The Roman Catholic Church is so entrenched that it's the default assumption when one says "Catholic". We would have to state exceptions from the default, certainly, but we can safely assume the default, especially since nothing other than the Roman Catholic Church has even been mentioned in this thread until now.
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:25 PM   #1649
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This guy's argument does not make a lot of sense to me:

Brisbane Archbishop Mark Coleridge rejects proposed Queensland laws to report child abusers who confess



Yeah, see, we don't care whether God sees it. We care whether the police see it. Child abuse isn't just a sin, it's a crime.

Sort of makes sense but is not very savoury. This part I think is the crux of the matter. As the Archbishop said:

"It is claimed at times that the seal must be abolished in law because it is the linchpin of a culture of secrecy and cover-up.

"The Church rejects such a claim, insisting that the seal is the guarantee of a culture of true disclosure which is the opposite of cover-up."


The seal guarantees the confessor gets to make his confession without the risk of getting arrested. He gets absolution removing the stain on his soul so heaven awaits. Good news for the devout child rapist ...... not so good for the victims.
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:36 PM   #1650
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Yes, it makes sense from a theological perspective, but again, we don't care about that. It's just infuriating that the sentiment expressed is that it is sufficient for God to know about it - that the secular authorities don't matter.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:16 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't think so. The Roman Catholic Church is so entrenched that it's the default assumption when one says "Catholic". We would have to state exceptions from the default, certainly, but we can safely assume the default, especially since nothing other than the Roman Catholic Church has even been mentioned in this thread until now.
We shall have to disagree.

This thread and your responses are an example of why we do have to clarify. I mentioned there isn't an official body that sets what all Christians have to believe in, you then mentioned a body that only applies to Roman Catholicism.
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Old 16th January 2020, 12:30 AM   #1652
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, it makes sense from a theological perspective, but again, we don't care about that. It's just infuriating that the sentiment expressed is that it is sufficient for God to know about it - that the secular authorities don't matter.
And of course it is also yet again a deliberate attempt to protect the church itself by trying to put the idea out that the RCC couldn't have done anything about the child abuse as it was revealed under the "seal" of the confession. But that simply wasn't the case, if it had been the case church employees wouldn't have been moved around, victims wouldn't have been coerced to drop allegations and so on.

Personally I'd pass the law, if a priest then because of personal beliefs wants to break the law that is on their own head like anyone else that breaks the law as a matter of conscience.
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Old 16th January 2020, 02:32 PM   #1653
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And of course it is also yet again a deliberate attempt to protect the church itself by trying to put the idea out that the RCC couldn't have done anything about the child abuse as it was revealed under the "seal" of the confession. But that simply wasn't the case, if it had been the case church employees wouldn't have been moved around, victims wouldn't have been coerced to drop allegations and so on.

Personally I'd pass the law, if a priest then because of personal beliefs wants to break the law that is on their own head like anyone else that breaks the law as a matter of conscience.

Here, here, pass the law.

Something I find perplexing is the lack of sense of proportion by believers. If the belief in hereafter is sincere and absolute, why should the devout not go through whatever hocus-pocus they need, to get to the desired place.

it has been suggested that child molesters would be reluctant to confess, if they run the risk of going to the slammer for a few years, as a result of a priest obeying the law. Huh! The alternative is an eterniteeeeeeeeeee of wailing and tooth gnashing.
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:37 PM   #1654
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We shall have to disagree.

This thread and your responses are an example of why we do have to clarify. I mentioned there isn't an official body that sets what all Christians have to believe in, you then mentioned a body that only applies to Roman Catholicism.
This thread is exclusively and specifically about the Roman Catholic Church. It's right there in the title. No clarification is needed. When I say Catholic, please assume that I'm referring to Roman Catholic and not something that isn't the topic of the discussion.
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Old 16th January 2020, 05:35 PM   #1655
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This thread is exclusively and specifically about the Roman Catholic Church. It's right there in the title. No clarification is needed. When I say Catholic, please assume that I'm referring to Roman Catholic and not something that isn't the topic of the discussion.
Yes. I was wondering where that sidetrack was supposed to be going.
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Old 18th January 2020, 01:18 PM   #1656
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Well we have the opinion of one victim supporting the idea of mandatory reporting:


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...abuse/11876130

Quote:
Catholic priest 'confessed 1,500 times to abusing children', victim says mandatory reporting could have saved him
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Old 18th January 2020, 02:36 PM   #1657
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well we have the opinion of one victim supporting the idea of mandatory reporting:


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...abuse/11876130
One thing I do not understand. I thought confession was meant to be anonymous. If so the priest would be able to report very little useful information. And if it was not reported and it was not anonymous then there would be no way to prove that the confession existed.

One way to reduce the scale of the problem is to make the bishop (or whoever the priest reports to) personally responsible for anything the priest does. And if a priest gets moved from one place to another then all the bishops are responsible for anything done habitually at any time.
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Old 19th January 2020, 02:39 PM   #1658
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing I do not understand. I thought confession was meant to be anonymous. If so the priest would be able to report very little useful information. And if it was not reported and it was not anonymous then there would be no way to prove that the confession existed.

Anonymous?

You would have to wonder about that. I mean the priest may be on the other side of a curtain*, but you would think he would recognise a voice wouldn't you? Especially if that voice was that of a fellow priest.


* Never having seen the inside of a confessional both I am relying on information from other sources here.
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Old 19th January 2020, 02:58 PM   #1659
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are already several competing popes. Pope Alexander IX was elected after Pope Innocent XIV resigned on 29 May 2007. There's also Pope Michael, who was elected on 16 July 1990 by a conclave of six people, and Pope Linus II who was elected in 1994 and resides in Hertfordshire. And that doesn't count any of the many self-declared popes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclavism

Of these popes, only Francis is recognised by a majority of Catholics.
Curiously most of the 'non-Roman' Catholic churches don't bother with popes.

Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
That is unfortunately unsurprising.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There is also the Coptic Pope, the RCers Pope just has a better PR team.
True, though what happens when there are two of him?

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Plus of course the RC church believes in the bread and wine actually being christ's blood and flesh.
So do some protestants.
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Old 19th January 2020, 03:06 PM   #1660
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This guy's argument does not make a lot of sense to me:

Brisbane Archbishop Mark Coleridge rejects proposed Queensland laws to report child abusers who confess

Yeah, see, we don't care whether God sees it. We care whether the police see it. Child abuse isn't just a sin, it's a crime.
It makes perfect sense, just not to those who prioritise the safety of vulnerable people over protecting the institution of the church. Coleridge has in the past prioritised the latter, despite subsequent comments from him,and this appears to be a return to his earlier beliefs.
He's also said that homosexuals cannot truly love each other.
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Old 21st January 2020, 02:30 PM   #1661
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Curiously most of the 'non-Roman' Catholic churches don't bother with popes.
I would bet some would like to have one so they could point to him as the rock at the foundation of their church. Having that ability to bind and loose stuff on Earth and in Heaven would be a winner also.

Might be a long shot to expect others to accept their pope has some legitimacy as the successor of Peter the fisherman who Jesus endorsed in Matthew 16:18. I wonder if some of the followers of non Catholic versions of Christianity struggle with this question. What was Jesus on about when he gave this endorsement to Peter? Was this power only for the original Peter or was it to be handed on?
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Old 21st January 2020, 06:10 PM   #1662
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would bet some would like to have one so they could point to him as the rock at the foundation of their church. Having that ability to bind and loose stuff on Earth and in Heaven would be a winner also.

Might be a long shot to expect others to accept their pope has some legitimacy as the successor of Peter the fisherman who Jesus endorsed in Matthew 16:18. I wonder if some of the followers of non Catholic versions of Christianity struggle with this question. What was Jesus on about when he gave this endorsement to Peter? Was this power only for the original Peter or was it to be handed on?
In my church the Pope was literally the antichrist.

The Roman Catholic Church had lost its way and become corrupted by Satan.
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Old 21st January 2020, 11:23 PM   #1663
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In my church the Pope was literally the antichrist.

The Roman Catholic Church had lost its way and become corrupted by Satan.

So how did they deal with Matthew's scribblings?
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Old 22nd January 2020, 03:02 PM   #1664
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And so it continues. This time in Western Australia after time limits on abuse cases have been removed.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...rdeal/11889202

True to form, even though admitting the abuse took place, the Christian Brothers are trying get out of it as lightly as possible.

Quote:
Despite conceding the abuse, the Christian Brothers have indicated they will dispute the amount of compensation Mr Lawrence's lawyers are seeking for lost wages incurred as a result of the mental injuries the abuse caused.
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Old 22nd January 2020, 05:51 PM   #1665
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So how did they deal with Matthew's scribblings?
Which scribblings in particular?
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:45 PM   #1666
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Which scribblings in particular?
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would bet some would like to have one so they could point to him as the rock at the foundation of their church. Having that ability to bind and loose stuff on Earth and in Heaven would be a winner also.

Might be a long shot to expect others to accept their pope has some legitimacy as the successor of Peter the fisherman who Jesus endorsed in Matthew 16:18. I wonder if some of the followers of non Catholic versions of Christianity struggle with this question. What was Jesus on about when he gave this endorsement to Peter? Was this power only for the original Peter or was it to be handed on?
You responded to this post remember? Do you read what is written before you respond?
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