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16th November 2012, 03:50 PM | #161 |
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16th November 2012, 03:57 PM | #162 |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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16th November 2012, 04:01 PM | #163 |
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16th November 2012, 04:07 PM | #164 |
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I think both are to blame. But I guess the real question is, who is the real authority on who is allowed to go into which locker rooms? Is it the school officials? Or is there a state law of some sort? If it is solely up to the school, then I disagree 100% on their decision.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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16th November 2012, 04:55 PM | #165 |
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Do you believe that it is alright for any man to dress up as a man, claim he is a man, and then go into a locker room and expose himself to little boys? I don't believe that is alright, for the same reason you think a male exposing himself to little girls is not alright. Facilities like these should offer privacy, not segregation based on minor biological differences.
A place that shouldn't exist. The article doesn't say. Would you still have a problem with this person "getting naked" in the women's locker room if she is registered as female? I think you would, so whether she has an M or F in her ID card is irrelevant to the discussion. In the article it is clearly mentioned that there is a state law of some sort. |
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16th November 2012, 04:57 PM | #166 |
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16th November 2012, 05:12 PM | #167 |
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I believe you'll find that under many states laws, TGs are to be considered their target gender, so she would be a legally a woman. A number of states, and I believe it says in the OP have anti-discrimination laws to protect TGs as that gender as well.
Gender is what is between the ears, not what is between the legs. And honestly, unless there is a serious problem with cis-males crossdressing to get into women's changing rooms to perv, I don't see the issue with allowing Transwomen to use the changing room of their target gender. Since Beerina failed to answer, I'll ask you the same question. Should this person be forced to use the men's locker room? |
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16th November 2012, 05:47 PM | #168 |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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16th November 2012, 05:50 PM | #169 |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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16th November 2012, 06:21 PM | #170 |
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To me it's pretty straight forward. Either dressing rooms are segregated based on physical appearance, for the sake of decency or whatever, or they're segregated based on sexuality for safety reasons, or they're unsegregated and we just pile in together and get over ourselves.
Segregation based on sexual orientation just isn't practical as society seems determined to discover a new sexual orientation every five minutes. You will end up with facilities having to provide half a dozen changing rooms. That leaves either non-segregation (which I suspect would go down like a cup of cold sick amongst your average person) or appearance-based segregation. Maybe instead of a person in trousers and a person in a dress designating the two rooms they could change the iconography to a penis and a vulva, so we can avoid these sorts of predicaments in future. |
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16th November 2012, 06:25 PM | #171 |
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Please explain why you think it is okay for a man to confront boys with his nakedness, but not girls.
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16th November 2012, 06:39 PM | #172 |
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There is a difference between confronting, and transitioning from naked to clothed while everyone has the same parts.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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16th November 2012, 06:40 PM | #173 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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16th November 2012, 06:52 PM | #174 |
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"Physical appearance" is not that straight forward, and does not straight forwardly correlate with having either a penis or vulva.
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16th November 2012, 07:02 PM | #175 |
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16th November 2012, 07:19 PM | #176 |
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There is also a difference between confronting and transitioning from naked to clothed while some people have different parts; so you haven't adressed the issue of why the parts are all that relevant.
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16th November 2012, 08:13 PM | #177 |
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There's a lot of nonsense in this thread. Sexual organs are not just 'body parts' like any other because they are used in a sexual way and can be used to traumatize or hurt people.
This isn't about a person changing clothes, it's the worry that it's being done in a way to try to deliberately upset or offend. That is the thing about sexual assault, it's not about sex, it's about power. Any decent person I know would cover up if in the presence of another person's child. To argue otherwise is just pretending there's some 'puritan" issue here when there isn't. |
16th November 2012, 08:26 PM | #178 |
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16th November 2012, 08:27 PM | #179 |
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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16th November 2012, 08:35 PM | #180 |
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And yet you seem to think that there is no difference between confronting, and transitioning from naked to clothed while someone has slightly different parts
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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17th November 2012, 04:26 PM | #181 |
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It does if you say it does.
This is a sensible way of implementing all-use changing rooms (which I am in favour of, personally), by having individual changing stalls instead of large open changing areas. Of course this has its own problems as it is far less efficient, and much more expensive. It would be interesting to do studies of changing room use in public facilities to see how many people are actually using a changing room at any given time. From my own personal anecdotal evidence, even in quite busy facilities I find there's usually only a relatively small number of people changing at any given time, which means you could perhaps get away with far less private stalls than people think. Perhaps a combination of private stalls and communal changing areas for the uninhibited could be a solution. Those wanting privacy might just have to wait a bit if the facility is busy. |
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17th November 2012, 04:33 PM | #182 |
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Actually sexual violence is more frequent in female prisons than male prisons, and in particular inmate-on-inmate sexual violence is more common in female prisons (more sexual violence in male prison involves guards). At least in the USA. So a TG woman would be safer in a male prison, at least in theory. |
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17th November 2012, 09:07 PM | #183 |
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17th November 2012, 09:46 PM | #184 |
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17th November 2012, 11:49 PM | #185 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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17th November 2012, 11:52 PM | #186 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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17th November 2012, 11:54 PM | #187 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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18th November 2012, 01:38 AM | #188 |
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18th November 2012, 04:10 AM | #189 |
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And what if you lost your penis in a terrible baking accident? Lol
I usually go by chromosomes. So if you were born with a Y chromosome I will think of you as biologically male. I will call you 'she' if that's what you want but I don't want to see your private parts. Or anyone's for that matter. Ever. You could believe in your mind that you're a fairy princess for all I care. Whatever makes you happy. I'd like to know how much of an accident this was. A towel slip? Or did she just not think the kids would be freaked? |
18th November 2012, 05:31 AM | #190 |
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Sex = biology. Gender and preference = sociology/psychology.
The former is chromosomal and does not change, no matter your mental or surgical state. A male identifying and living as a woman is a woman but is not female and never will be. |
18th November 2012, 07:52 AM | #191 |
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Sex = biology is a lot more complicated than it seems at first sight. Saying there are males, females and a tiny inter-sex population kind of obfuscates the issue.
Non-transgender women with XY chromosomes exist. When indifferent gonads don't differentiate into testes, the fetus becomes a perfectly developed woman (with a vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, etc) except for her ovaries. This usually goes completely undetected until people realize the girl hasn't hit puberty. Then, with hormonal therapy, she develops as normal. She may even become pregnant with an embryo transfer. She is just a normal woman with no ovaries. XX women can be women with no ovaries too. This proves that what makes someone a woman (in terms of sex - let's forget gender for a minute) isn't her chromosomes. It's her morphology. But the moment you define sex in terms of morphology, you open a huge can of worms. Is a infertile woman still a woman? I believe everyone would say yes. But is a woman who lost all her reproductive organs still a woman? Is a woman without reproductive organs or secondary sexual characteristics still a woman? Where do you draw the line here? My point is that wherever you draw the line, it is arbitrary. Some people act as if "male" and "female" were some sort of platonic ideal (as opposed to gender, which they more easily admit to be a social construct). But they are not. Sex, like everything else, is a concept invented by humans to categorize their observations. When you look at those categories closely enough, it becomes apparent that maleness and femaleness aren't intrinsic to anything. They are just vague concepts we superimpose on the world to make it more understandable. So my question is: why shouldn't we include trans women in the female category (even as pre-op)? There are a few situations where that would be a bad idea (e.g. as a group they have different health care needs); but there are also many situations where it's a lot more practical to categorize them as female. Moreover, there are very important social consequences when it comes to identity. What worries me the most in this thread is that people grant trans women the status of woman (in gender terms), but then they seek refuge in sex to subtly undermine that status. They concede the battle for the word WOMAN, only to uphold the sanctity of the FEMALE category. Once again, I'm not saying that playing with categories is a bad thing - there'd be nothing wrong with categorizing a trans woman as male if we did this in a very specific context, such as the provision of health care. After all, it's just a word - the group might as well be called ABCD or XYWZ. But the main problem here is that the people who insist on trans women being considered male are exactly the ones who see those categories as intrinsic and very much real. |
18th November 2012, 07:57 AM | #192 |
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You think? I'd be down with it. Like you said gumboot, we really need to get over ourselves. Why are we still so hung up on seeing normal peoples' willies and tits? Seriously?
ETA: in specific situations where there is reason to be momentarily naked, such as adults changing room at the swimming baths, I mean, not generally such as walking down the street. |
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18th November 2012, 08:11 AM | #193 |
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If I were capable of running a marathon, I might be inclined to strip off with a bunch of mixed sex marathon runners, too.
Americans might be a bit more obsessed with nudity than are Germans, but even in Germany, facilities where exposure is likely still say "Damen" and "Herren". I think the tendency to cover up the boy parts and the girl parts except in sexual situations is pretty universal. I'm using a pretty broad definition of "sexual situations" there. I'm including situations where one might be inclined to display your own best attributes, or enjoy the viewing of someone else's best attributes. The mixed sex, post marathon, showers are an example of that sort of "sexual situation". Yes, I am asserting that when a bunch of people get naked together after running a marathon, the nudity is all part of the fun. There are a fair number of fine bodies on display, and people will be all very glad to see or be seen in such situations. At a public pool, with people of all ages, and a cross section of people much more representative of the population at large (no pun intended), I think people would prefer a little bit more coverage, regardless of their culture. |
18th November 2012, 08:12 AM | #194 |
Muse
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True, Rairun. People can have XXX (female), XXY (male) and XYY (male) chromosomes as well IIRC. So it is not clear-cut.
I was talking about people who only have two chromosomes. AFAIK if you only have XY you are physically male. Unless the Y is damaged. The gene for male development can also copy over to the X, leading to XX males. Some women only have one X (shown as XO). All of which is completely irrelevant but very interesting I think people just like to be able to categorise things. And it can be a little annoying when you think you've managed that and suddenly there's another change. People need to get over it. |
18th November 2012, 10:21 AM | #195 |
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18th November 2012, 10:35 AM | #196 |
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"Man" is a marker of gender; "male" is a marker of sex. Gender is socially constructed; sex (for the most part) is not.
By the way, "socially constructed" does not mean "not real"; it means "real by the agreement (of those with power in society)". There are societies with three, four, or five genders, so insisting that your genitalia completely determines your gender in some sort of acultural sense is a bit naive. |
18th November 2012, 10:46 AM | #197 |
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18th November 2012, 01:36 PM | #198 |
lorcutus.tolere
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Oh I am 100% in agreement. In fact I'd argue that there would be less issue with sexual assault and body confidence issues if we all changed together. It was the bizarre Victorian idea of locking everyone away in their own private little space that caused the problem in the first place. |
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19th November 2012, 12:52 AM | #199 |
Muse
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With people being diagnosed as transgender at earlier ages these days, which shower/changing room is most appropriate for prepubescent and adolescent transgender people- the one most closely resembling their sex or the one most closely resembling their gender?
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19th November 2012, 01:07 AM | #200 |
lorcutus.tolere
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In this country it's relatively common for children under about 8 or 9 to change with their parent, regardless of sex/gender. It's common enough to see young girls in the men's changing room with their father that I barely notice. People tend to mind their own business in a changing room. |
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