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Tags privacy issues , school incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 29th November 2012, 01:29 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Because that would be a reasonable solution.
I'd actually say that wrapping a towel about you in a suna when there are kids about is a reasonable solution full stop, regardless of if it's single sex or not.
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Old 29th November 2012, 01:36 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by appalling View Post
I wasn't sure if you were around to make any edits or changes when I posted my complaint.

Is it a publicly-released report? Is it breach-of-privacy? Who is releasing the report? Do you know?

You should think about that. It seems likely that it is attempt by a christian lobby group to name-and-shame someone for being trans while in public. The existence of this thread calls attention to this issue, and these people. I don't think we should also aid a shaming campaign against the person discussed.

We're not. I have no idea why the report is available online; I know that police departments sometimes publicly release these things due to requests (see the Trayvon Martin fiasco), and there doesn't seem to be any evidence or claims going around that this particular one was somehow or other "stolen" or "leaked" surreptitiously.

I initially reported my understanding of the incident; another poster stated she had not heard anything about a sauna or an actual student complaining, and asked for a source. I looked online for articles about the situation that mentioned the sauna detail, and found a couple of very anemic news blurbs, a whole lot of skewed blog posts, and this police report. Purely as a source, the original police report contains the most complete, concise, and detailed facts and generally cannot be assailed as being biased, exaggerative, or making things up; so I chose it. Whatever the website hosting it's intentions or beliefs may be is of no import to my reason for posting it, which was purely as a source with the most complete original information. As I said, I have no problem leaving names out of my quotes; and if anyone can find a version which redacts names, the mods have my request to replace the link in my post with that one if it appeases you or anyone else with privacy concerns.

Originally Posted by appalling View Post
If you posted a picture of someone's genitals to prove a point you'd made, it would also be a clear violation of privacy. Posting a police report that explicitly names people is not the only way to illustrate your point. We already knew that one of the people called her a "man". The report adds nothing new to this.
"We" certainly were NOT all aware of that fact; the poster I had initially replied to was not for instance, and other people here have been arguing for pages as if none of the students using the locker room had actually complained.

Posting the police report is the most irrefutable way of illustrating my point - news blurbs and blog posts, as I mentioned before, can leave out key details and spin or exaggerate select facts in order to support a bias.

Having found the police report, and seeing people saying things that I know to contradict the information in the report, what was I supposed to do - tell them their information was incorrect, and just insist that "I know because I saw the original police report" without posting a link? Or do you think the obvious errors should just be allowed to be repeated unchallenged?

Last edited by Checkmite; 29th November 2012 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 29th November 2012, 01:37 PM   #283
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Does anyone know why we have sex-segregated facilities?

Most of the explanations offered seem to be post hoc.
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Old 29th November 2012, 01:39 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Does anyone know why we have sex-segregated facilities?

Most of the explanations offered seem to be post hoc.
Because that is what we have done. Really they are post hoc. They are a cultural artifact with little explanation.
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:05 PM   #285
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I agree, there is little explanation. They exist because "that's the way it is" is so deeply ingrained into our way of thinking.
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:32 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
If a pre-op transwoman went in a sauna and sat with her male genitals exposed, she really lacks common sense. How hard is it to just wrap a towel around your waist until you've had your surgery?
It seems as if this person was unconcerned about displaying her male sex organs.

Also, you are making an assumption that this person intended to have surgery. Perhaps she did, or perhaps not. There's nothing in evidence that says so, one way or another.
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Old 29th November 2012, 04:42 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
If a pre-op transwoman went in a sauna and sat with her male genitals exposed, she really lacks common sense. How hard is it to just wrap a towel around your waist until you've had your surgery?
That's the one detail that's always struck me as odd about this story. CBF wants to pass as a woman and, presumably, takes pains to conceal the crotch bulge that would be evident in a swimsuit yet sits in a sauna with big jim and the twins clearly on display.

There's more information over in the lesbian hate site world, including an OK Cupid profile ( now deleted, but saved on the blogs ) where CBFportrays herself as, well, horny.

Might this have been an error in judgement on CBF's part ? Dunno, but the story doesn't fit all that well with someone wanting to be perceived as female.

trigger warning

lesbian hate site.
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Old 29th November 2012, 05:13 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
There's more information over in the lesbian hate site world, including an OK Cupid profile ( now deleted, but saved on the blogs ) where CBFportrays herself as, well, horny.
I'm not gonna go to that site; but in fairness, I'm not sure this really means anything by itself. As long as she has male genitalia, whenever she's aroused it's just going to manifest in that way; it's impossible to avoid no matter how much she otherwise tries to live and look like a woman.
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Old 29th November 2012, 05:15 PM   #289
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And here's some information from "her" blog:

“I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian…makes me smile) and kinky.”

“Colleen Brenna” means “Raven Girl” in Irish Gaelic. A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

He started wearing a low-dose estrogen patch two years ago and has written that he has no intention of ever getting “sex reassignment” surgery, stating “Yes, I still have those parts too, although they aren’t disgusting for me. I’ve never hated then. I saw LONG ago, in childhood that those were what I was given, and beung the very, very sexual creature that I was/am, I used them. Enthusiastically. I decided not to be robbed of the blessing of sexuality simply because I came wrapped in the wrong package.” [sic]



This isn't really the sort of person who qualifies as the typical transwoman described earlier in this thread.


You think it's ok for this "woman" to be naked around teenage girls? Seriously?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 29th November 2012 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 29th November 2012, 05:29 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I'm not gonna go to that site; but in fairness, I'm not sure this really means anything by itself. As long as she has male genitalia, whenever she's aroused it's just going to manifest in that way; it's impossible to avoid no matter how much she otherwise tries to live and look like a woman.
It may not mean anything at all, I'm not seeing anything about her getting aroused, but that, IMO, in the, and I mean THE, time to reach for that towel.
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Old 29th November 2012, 05:49 PM   #291
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Why the complexity? I think people who consider themselves women, whether cis or trans-sexual, whatever their stage of sex reassignment, should be allowed to use female facilities. But if they act Like jerks, they should be kicked out.
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Old 29th November 2012, 06:19 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
It may not mean anything at all, I'm not seeing anything about her getting aroused, but that, IMO, in the, and I mean THE, time to reach for that towel.
Also fair enough.
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Old 29th November 2012, 06:33 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You think it's ok for this "woman" to be naked around teenage girls? Seriously?
Considering her claims to be bi, would you consider it ok for this woman to be naked around teenage boys?

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Why the complexity? I think people who consider themselves women, whether cis or trans-sexual, whatever their stage of sex reassignment, should be allowed to use female facilities. But if they act Like jerks, they should be kicked out.
Exactly!
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Old 29th November 2012, 06:41 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And here's some information from "her" blog:

“I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian…makes me smile) and kinky.”

“Colleen Brenna” means “Raven Girl” in Irish Gaelic. A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

He started wearing a low-dose estrogen patch two years ago and has written that he has no intention of ever getting “sex reassignment” surgery, stating “Yes, I still have those parts too, although they aren’t disgusting for me. I’ve never hated then. I saw LONG ago, in childhood that those were what I was given, and beung the very, very sexual creature that I was/am, I used them. Enthusiastically. I decided not to be robbed of the blessing of sexuality simply because I came wrapped in the wrong package.” [sic]



This isn't really the sort of person who qualifies as the typical transwoman described earlier in this thread.


You think it's ok for this "woman" to be naked around teenage girls? Seriously?
Yes. Just because she is not "typical" doesn't mean she's dangerous. Would you have an issue with a cis-woman who is polyamorous, bisexual, and kinky being in the same sauna with teenagers? This argument sounds a lot like the "homosexuals are pedophiles" argument.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Why the complexity? I think people who consider themselves women, whether cis or trans-sexual, whatever their stage of sex reassignment, should be allowed to use female facilities. But if they act Like jerks, they should be kicked out.
This. From what I have gathered, she wasn't aroused when she was around a child. She wasn't obviously flaunting anything. There was no predatory action.

The child didn't understand. This person had what the child knew of as "man parts" and so she told her parents that there was a "man" in the sauna.
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Old 29th November 2012, 06:54 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by bumlet5 View Post
The child didn't understand. This person had what the child knew of as "man parts" and so she told her parents that there was a "man" in the sauna.

The child did understand.
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:03 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by bumlet5 View Post
This argument sounds a lot like the "homosexuals are pedophiles" argument.
No it doesn't , We know homosexuals and pedophiles are different things, what we don't know here is why someone would decide to display a schlong in what's commonly taken to be a schlong-free safe space.
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:03 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by bumlet5 View Post
The child didn't understand. This person had what the child knew of as "man parts" and so she told her parents that there was a "man" in the sauna.
The child was a 17-year-old high school student...


Personally I don't particularly care about the person's orientation; gender and orientation aren't the same thing. But the people here more familiar with transgender individuals have said that transgender folks have body dysmorphia and are so repulsed by the birth-sex of their body that they suffer considerable psychological and emotional stress, which is treated by reassignment surgery. Question: if it's true as is claimed that this individual has no body dysmorphia - i.e., claims to be completely comfortable with and even enjoys her male body parts and has no intention of getting a reassignment, is she still trans? Were those who said transgender individuals necessarily have debilitating body dysmorphia mistaken?
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:17 PM   #298
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I feel like reading about this person has jolted me back to reality.

There's a significant portion of the transgender community that really, really, doesn't like this person in the least, and I'm on their side. I was questioning my attitudes for a bit, but the common sense displayed in those "hate" blogs just cuts through the B.S. quite nicely.

This is a person who went out of her way to make sure that young girls got a view of her balls. Of course that whole thing about "her balls" is just an oxymoron anyway. This is a man. He uses his penis to penetrate women's vaginas for mutual pleasure. Does anyone really want to say that she uses her penis to penetrate women's vaginas for mutual pleasure? Seriously?


Having given the issue more thought than it deserves, I'm back to my old, boorish position. If you have a penis, stay out of the girls' locker room. I don't know what your are thinking, or how you self identify, of whatever else influences your sexuality, but I do know that you are perfectly capable of impregnating those with whom you are sharing that locker room.



I can think of two exceptions I'm willing to make. First, any intersexed person is in a different category. Second, I'm liberal. I want to make people comfortable. If a person has begun female transformation hormones as part of preparation for reassignment surgery and as a consequence has been altered in body to the point where she is, for all practical purposes, intersexed, I'm willing to allow her into the girls' locker room.
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:20 PM   #299
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As far as i can tell, there's degrees to "transness". From fetish right up to taking that flight to Bangkok and sticking the meat and two veg into that little tiny guillotine I hear they use for demasculating.

I don't know how well CBF passes and even with the operation she still might look like a modified he. Sometimes it's pretty obvious that a girl's had work done. Heck if I were to decide to try and pass as a woman, I'd need that cosmetic surgery suite that they had on Logan's Run.
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:23 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I don't know how well CBF passes....
There are pictures on the web, from his own sites. He looks like a guy in a dress.
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:43 PM   #301
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Quote:
This is a person who went out of her way to make sure that young girls got a view of her balls.
Even I have to chime in and say this scenario is far removed from what seemed to be the case in the OP. Sitting wide open in a sauna showing off is far, far different than simply being "seen" while changing clothes.
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Old 29th November 2012, 08:10 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
As far as i can tell, there's degrees to "transness". From fetish right up to taking that flight to Bangkok and sticking the meat and two veg into that little tiny guillotine I hear they use for demasculating.
They don't actually chop it off, rather cut it up and repurpose it into the Vulva and Clitoris with the excess skin being used to help create the vigina. But that is probably TMI for you.


As to this case, the more that comes out, the more I think that this particular individual is a jerk who's actions are harmful to other TGs.
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Old 29th November 2012, 09:01 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

As to this case, the more that comes out, the more I think that this particular individual is a jerk who's actions are harmful to other TGs.
That's my thinking on this issue.

PhantomWolf, sorry to see your cat passed on, I have a cat that looks exactly the same including the apparent one white whisker, sitting on my lap right now.
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Old 29th November 2012, 09:23 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
PhantomWolf, sorry to see your cat passed on, I have a cat that looks exactly the same including the apparent one white whisker, sitting on my lap right now.
Thanks, though it was over a year, nearly 14 months ago, I can't believe how quickly the time has gone by, and I still miss him dreadfully.
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Old 29th November 2012, 09:35 PM   #305
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This thread has been surprisingly challenging. That's not the right word but I'm too tired to think of the proper one.
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Old 29th November 2012, 10:58 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post

You think it's ok for this "woman" to be naked around teenage girls? Seriously?
Yes. Why isn't it ok?

Do you think it's ok for this person to be naked around teenage boys?
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Old 30th November 2012, 12:29 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's a very difficult question, and I don't have an answer.
It is a very simple question with an even simpler answer: offer privacy, desegregate. In that order, because even just providing privacy is a huge improvement.

Quote:
I agree that public facilities should make more private areas available, although I disagree that all people ought to change in private,
I am sure there are places people go to specifically look at other people's nakedness -- such as gay saunas -- but in more public places people ought to have the option to change in privacy and not the expectation that people ought to change in public.

Quote:
Among American males of my generation, I don't think the vast majority care.
I've seen research that suggests that while not a vast majority, it is still a majority of American males who care, and only a tiny minority who prefers locker rooms without privacy. Unfortunately in trying to find it, my Google-Fu has abadonned me.

Quote:
(Or should I say, "do not self identify as the gender most commonly associated with their sex?)


Quote:
Biology.
Since we're talking about behaviour, we're talking about behavioural biology. That means that there is no reason to assume it isn't also a cultural phenomenon.

Quote:
Does it matter?
Yes, it does.

Quote:
ETA: I'll also add that I am not among the people who have said that transgender women (biologically male) ought to be forbidden from women's locker rooms.
Sure looked like it, though.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If you have a penis, stay out of the girls' locker room.
And now it looks like you're doing it again.

Quote:
If a person has begun female transformation hormones as part of preparation for reassignment surgery and as a consequence has been altered in body to the point where she is, for all practical purposes, intersexed, I'm willing to allow her into the girls' locker room.
That's not a "exception", that's called a "contradiction".

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But if they act Like jerks, they should be kicked out.
It's as simple as that! And it makes no difference whether they change in the women's, men's or unisex locker room.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Were those who said transgender individuals necessarily have debilitating body dysmorphia mistaken?
Yes. Those who said that are woefully misinformed: body dysmorphia and transgenderism are completely different things. There are at most a few similarities, and they do sometimes occur together.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
They don't actually chop it off,
Depends on the exact surgical technique used. Since Stout is talking about a sex change in Thailand, "chopping it off" is not entirely incorrect, though no guillotines are involved. Those are for circumcisions.
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Old 30th November 2012, 05:03 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
It is a very simple question with an even simpler answer: offer privacy, desegregate. In that order, because even just providing privacy is a huge improvement.

I am sure there are places people go to specifically look at other people's nakedness -- such as gay saunas -- but in more public places people ought to have the option to change in privacy and not the expectation that people ought to change in public.

I've seen research that suggests that while not a vast majority, it is still a majority of American males who care, and only a tiny minority who prefers locker rooms without privacy. Unfortunately in trying to find it, my Google-Fu has abadonned me.
Given a choice between private changing rooms and public changing rooms, I'm sure most people would select a private changing room.

Given a choice between public changing rooms and paying an extra $10.00 per month in health club fees, most American males of my generation would save the ten bucks and walk around naked in the locker room.

It really would add a significant amount of cost to change typical health club, pool, or school shower facilities into private zones. I would not be in favor of regulations that forced such changes.

I keep saying "American males of my generation" because that's the only demographic I have close experience with, and it does seem like there's a generational component. I changed health clubs recently. At my old club, they had sold a lot of lifetime memberships, and the average age was pretty high. We walked around naked and didn't bother covering up.

My new health club is a newer club, and the average age is much younger. One day after working out I threw my clothes in the locker, grabbed my towel, threw it over my shoulder, and headed toward the showers, just like I always had done. I looked around and realized everyone else had their towels wrapped around their waist, concealing the boy parts.


Quote:
Sure looked like it, though.

And now it looks like you're doing it again.
Yep. Reading about this case made me reconsider. People who are biologically male, and who are not actively taking steps to have their male anatomy rendered useless and removed, should not be allowed in a girls' locker room.
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Old 30th November 2012, 06:45 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
My new health club is a newer club, and the average age is much younger. One day after working out I threw my clothes in the locker, grabbed my towel, threw it over my shoulder, and headed toward the showers, just like I always had done. I looked around and realized everyone else had their towels wrapped around their waist, concealing the boy parts.
So you were deliberately exposing yourself to teenage boys? Should we teach teenage boys that it's okay if a stranger sticks their genitals in their face?







*This was facetious

Last edited by Fishstick; 30th November 2012 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 30th November 2012, 10:48 AM   #310
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I see, the results of the bottom surgery are more akin to what happens when Bugs Bunny sticks his finger in the barrel of Elmer Fudd's shotgun, rather than a straight lop off.

Another curious thing about this issue. CBF was taking women's studies so she had to be at least aware of Schrodinger's rapist and cognizant of the ramifications of displaying the wedding tackle in a women's space.

Good thing it wasn't Rebecca Watson who walked into the sauna.
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Old 30th November 2012, 12:13 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This isn't really the sort of person who qualifies as the typical transwoman described earlier in this thread.


You think it's ok for this "woman" to be naked around teenage girls? Seriously?
Well Horst Wessel was no saint either. When your cause needs a symbolic figure, you take what is dealt.
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Old 30th November 2012, 01:56 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yep. Reading about this case made me reconsider. People who are biologically male, and who are not actively taking steps to have their male anatomy rendered useless and removed, should not be allowed in a girls' locker room.
It has made me quite confused.

I'm all for a person with male genitalia who completely identifies and lives as a woman and is in the process of physically changing into one as well using the womens' locker room. Up until this business about the person in question's social account pages, I thought we were dealing with what the thread title evokes: a pre-op transwoman.

But I'm not sure about that anymore. If the new information is true, this person isn't "pre-op"; they're 100% comfortable with the way they look, never plan on changing, and merely seem to prefer to call themselves a woman whilst enjoying having sex with women and men the way men have sex. It seems to me now to be a case of nothing more than a bisexual man who likes to wear dresses. Even the points raised earlier about how transwomen succeed in looking like women everywhere except for the wedding tackle don't apply to this person; Meadmaker is exactly right, "she" looks exactly like a middle-aged man wearing a dress.
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Old 30th November 2012, 02:13 PM   #313
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Quote:
It seems to me now to be a case of nothing more than a bisexual man who likes to wear dresses.
Yes; me too. I think it puts a whole new paint job on the matter. Now, in addition to wondering why the young girls were in the locker room with adults, I also wonder why he was there at all. What about him made the college decide he should be treated like a woman? There doesn't seem to be any of the factors that usually lead to such placements?
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Old 30th November 2012, 04:04 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
they're 100% comfortable with the way they look, never plan on changing, and merely seem to prefer to call themselves a woman whilst enjoying having sex with women and men the way men have sex. It seems to me now to be a case of nothing more than a bisexual man who likes to wear dresses.
She has made changes to her appearance and her body. She obviously wasn't 100% if she's on estrogen. What's your plan for going on estrogen? Why are you asserting she has made no changes to her appearance or body?

Some people who would pass most of your other "Is this woman for real" tests don't fully transition. For some, they can't afford it. Some put up with less-desired sexual organs because they believe post-op parts won't perform. Sometimes they don't. Think about that before making it a dealbreaker for your support. It's easy to judge someone else who isn't going through with a "scary part" of a process for understandable reasons. As a side analogy, some women who want plastic surgery are brave enough to go through with it, others aren't; it's not a test of whether someone is happy with their appearance. There are tradeoffs with any surgery, it is not proof that someone is happy being a man.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Even the points raised earlier about how transwomen succeed in looking like women everywhere except for the wedding tackle don't apply to this person; Meadmaker is exactly right, "she" looks exactly like a middle-aged man wearing a dress.
Admit it, many middle-aged women look like a middle-aged man in a dress. You are saying she should only be allowed to be called a woman if she passes your standard of attractiveness.

The standard shouldn't be "Would I do her?"

Which is part of the basic goalpost-moving that a lot of these discussions take. It's not just gender identity that is asked for, but attractiveness mixed with a desire to be celibate.

Women can be ugly. Women can sleep with women. Women can be old. Women can want to have sex. Women can be kinky even if it bothers someone to think of it. Women can betray the fact that they're lonely on dating sites. None of these things are evidence of gender. They've been used as such in a number of posts here.

On another note:
I retract earlier complaints I had about her name and privacy. I see she chose to speak to the matter on television. I hadn't seen anything on the thread up till this point that she was volunteering her name, and erred on the side of protecting a person who was being targeted by both conservative christians and a branch of trans-denying feminists.
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Old 30th November 2012, 04:09 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Given a choice between public changing rooms and paying an extra $10.00 per month in health club fees, most American males of my generation would save the ten bucks and walk around naked in the locker room.
I don't see how it would need to cost that much extra. Once installed private changing rooms last for years; you don't need to install new ones every month. Also if you assume it will cost extra in the long run you aren't considering the damages in the inevitable lawsuit for failing to provide trans/prude accessible accomodations, and you aren't counting the likely increase in membership.

Quote:
I keep saying "American males of my generation" because that's the only demographic I have close experience with, and it does seem like there's a generational component. I changed health clubs recently. At my old club, they had sold a lot of lifetime memberships, and the average age was pretty high. We walked around naked and didn't bother covering up.
Your sample is biased: in those health clubs you'll only encounter the American males of your generation that does not mind changing in front of other males. The other ones likely stay at home, and I wouldn't be surprised if those represent a majority.

Quote:
I looked around and realized everyone else had their towels wrapped around their waist, concealing the boy parts.
I am sure that lots of men of the MTV generation and younger think that showing one's bits to other men is kinda gay. Because. It. Is.

There is nothing wrong with that as long as you do it in a place where that sort of thing is the main reason for people to go there.

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People who are biologically male, and who are not actively taking steps to have their male anatomy rendered useless and removed, should not be allowed in a girls' locker room.
So as long as someone plans on having a operation, it is okay flaunt one's member in the girls' locker room?
Good to know, though I find it highly illogical. If you think that girls shouldn't have to see penises and/or balls in their locker room, why is it at all relevant that those might be removed in the future?
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Old 30th November 2012, 04:15 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yes. Why isn't it ok?

Do you think it's ok for this person to be naked around teenage boys?
Assuming his behavior is appropriate, the mere fact of his nakedness around teenage boys will seem normal.

That's not the case around teenage girls. They will, and should be, disturbed by being around a naked man, regardless of his behavior.

I had been willing to cut him some slack, on the grounds that "he" thought of himself as "she", and that what we were probably dealing with was a case where, due to lack of privacy enclosures he/she/something had no choice but to expose himself, briefly and accidentally. I wondered if maybe I was just being too old fashioned.

Learning more about the circumstances in this case, I have changed my mind, or perhaps more accurately, I have reverted to a position I held some time ago. This particular person simply should not be around naked girls. Furthermore, there is no way to write the regulations in such a way that would disallow this particular man to be around naked girls, and yet allow a "real" transwoman to use those facilities. I have decided that the safety and comfort of the "regular" girls using the facility is more important than the concerns of those transgender individuals who are not actively in the process of changing their physiology to appear more female.
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Old 30th November 2012, 04:35 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I had been willing to cut him some slack, on the grounds that "he" thought of himself as "she", and that what we were probably dealing with was a case where, due to lack of privacy enclosures he/she/something had no choice but to expose himself, briefly and accidentally. I wondered if maybe I was just being too old fashioned.
In this incident there was one exposure of genitals in a changeroom that was reported. Then, there was a swim coach who went off to find out about a certain person's genitals.

I still have not seen anything that says the woman was behaving in an obscene fashion. If it truly was behaviour that was in question, why would they dismiss the cops when they learned her gender identity? If she was behaving illegally, it would be true for any gender identity. Existence alone is not obscenity, except to the biased.

There is one incident of, "I saw a man" and one incident of a person actively going to look between someone else's legs to see what was what.
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Old 30th November 2012, 04:37 PM   #318
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She's living as a woman. Where do you think she should change?
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Old 30th November 2012, 04:40 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Assuming his behavior is appropriate, the mere fact of his nakedness around teenage boys will seem normal.
Maybe to you and some of those men of your generation in that health club. To anyone else: no, it won't seem normal.

Quote:
I had been willing to cut him some slack,
Nobody really noticed.

Quote:
on the grounds that "he" thought of himself as "she"
She still thinks of herself as "she". Just because she looks blokish doesn't change that fact.

Quote:
I wondered if maybe I was just being too old fashioned.
Yes, you are too old fashioned. Now put on a towel or something!

Quote:
Furthermore, there is no way to write the regulations in such a way that would disallow this particular man to be around naked girls, and yet allow a "real" transwoman to use those facilities.
"There is no way..." Really? What have I been arguing the whole time?

Quote:
I have decided that the safety and comfort of the "regular" girls using the facility is more important than the concerns of those transgender individuals who are not actively in the process of changing their physiology to appear more female.
She's actively in the process of changing her physiology to appear more female.
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Old 30th November 2012, 05:19 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I don't see how it would need to cost that much extra.
The biggest cost of a health club is floor space. The required space to change clothes and shower privately is greater than that required to do so within sight of the other patrons.

Quote:
Your sample is biased: in those health clubs you'll only encounter the American males of your generation that does not mind changing in front of other males.
You might be correct.


Quote:
I am sure that lots of men of the MTV generation and younger think that showing one's bits to other men is kinda gay. Because. It. Is.
I guess we all used to do gay stuff and none of us noticed. Growing up, we didn't think it was gay.

I do think that one reason for modern shyness is a greater awareness of the existence of gay people. We didn't really think that any of our fellow high school students were gay, although some of them obviously were.

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So as long as someone plans on having a operation, it is okay flaunt one's member in the girls' locker room?
I was trying to find a compromise position, but I suppose you're right.
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