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29th November 2012, 01:29 PM | #281 |
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29th November 2012, 01:36 PM | #282 |
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We're not. I have no idea why the report is available online; I know that police departments sometimes publicly release these things due to requests (see the Trayvon Martin fiasco), and there doesn't seem to be any evidence or claims going around that this particular one was somehow or other "stolen" or "leaked" surreptitiously. I initially reported my understanding of the incident; another poster stated she had not heard anything about a sauna or an actual student complaining, and asked for a source. I looked online for articles about the situation that mentioned the sauna detail, and found a couple of very anemic news blurbs, a whole lot of skewed blog posts, and this police report. Purely as a source, the original police report contains the most complete, concise, and detailed facts and generally cannot be assailed as being biased, exaggerative, or making things up; so I chose it. Whatever the website hosting it's intentions or beliefs may be is of no import to my reason for posting it, which was purely as a source with the most complete original information. As I said, I have no problem leaving names out of my quotes; and if anyone can find a version which redacts names, the mods have my request to replace the link in my post with that one if it appeases you or anyone else with privacy concerns. "We" certainly were NOT all aware of that fact; the poster I had initially replied to was not for instance, and other people here have been arguing for pages as if none of the students using the locker room had actually complained. Posting the police report is the most irrefutable way of illustrating my point - news blurbs and blog posts, as I mentioned before, can leave out key details and spin or exaggerate select facts in order to support a bias. Having found the police report, and seeing people saying things that I know to contradict the information in the report, what was I supposed to do - tell them their information was incorrect, and just insist that "I know because I saw the original police report" without posting a link? Or do you think the obvious errors should just be allowed to be repeated unchallenged? |
29th November 2012, 01:37 PM | #283 |
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Does anyone know why we have sex-segregated facilities?
Most of the explanations offered seem to be post hoc. |
29th November 2012, 01:39 PM | #284 |
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29th November 2012, 02:05 PM | #285 |
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I agree, there is little explanation. They exist because "that's the way it is" is so deeply ingrained into our way of thinking.
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29th November 2012, 03:32 PM | #286 |
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29th November 2012, 04:42 PM | #287 |
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That's the one detail that's always struck me as odd about this story. CBF wants to pass as a woman and, presumably, takes pains to conceal the crotch bulge that would be evident in a swimsuit yet sits in a sauna with big jim and the twins clearly on display.
There's more information over in the lesbian hate site world, including an OK Cupid profile ( now deleted, but saved on the blogs ) where CBFportrays herself as, well, horny. Might this have been an error in judgement on CBF's part ? Dunno, but the story doesn't fit all that well with someone wanting to be perceived as female. trigger warning lesbian hate site. |
29th November 2012, 05:13 PM | #288 |
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I'm not gonna go to that site; but in fairness, I'm not sure this really means anything by itself. As long as she has male genitalia, whenever she's aroused it's just going to manifest in that way; it's impossible to avoid no matter how much she otherwise tries to live and look like a woman.
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29th November 2012, 05:15 PM | #289 |
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And here's some information from "her" blog:
“I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian…makes me smile) and kinky.” “Colleen Brenna” means “Raven Girl” in Irish Gaelic. A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter. He started wearing a low-dose estrogen patch two years ago and has written that he has no intention of ever getting “sex reassignment” surgery, stating “Yes, I still have those parts too, although they aren’t disgusting for me. I’ve never hated then. I saw LONG ago, in childhood that those were what I was given, and beung the very, very sexual creature that I was/am, I used them. Enthusiastically. I decided not to be robbed of the blessing of sexuality simply because I came wrapped in the wrong package.” [sic] This isn't really the sort of person who qualifies as the typical transwoman described earlier in this thread. You think it's ok for this "woman" to be naked around teenage girls? Seriously? |
29th November 2012, 05:29 PM | #290 |
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29th November 2012, 05:49 PM | #291 |
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Why the complexity? I think people who consider themselves women, whether cis or trans-sexual, whatever their stage of sex reassignment, should be allowed to use female facilities. But if they act Like jerks, they should be kicked out.
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29th November 2012, 06:19 PM | #292 |
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29th November 2012, 06:33 PM | #293 |
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29th November 2012, 06:41 PM | #294 |
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Yes. Just because she is not "typical" doesn't mean she's dangerous. Would you have an issue with a cis-woman who is polyamorous, bisexual, and kinky being in the same sauna with teenagers? This argument sounds a lot like the "homosexuals are pedophiles" argument.
This. From what I have gathered, she wasn't aroused when she was around a child. She wasn't obviously flaunting anything. There was no predatory action. The child didn't understand. This person had what the child knew of as "man parts" and so she told her parents that there was a "man" in the sauna. |
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29th November 2012, 06:54 PM | #295 |
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29th November 2012, 07:03 PM | #296 |
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29th November 2012, 07:03 PM | #297 |
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The child was a 17-year-old high school student...
Personally I don't particularly care about the person's orientation; gender and orientation aren't the same thing. But the people here more familiar with transgender individuals have said that transgender folks have body dysmorphia and are so repulsed by the birth-sex of their body that they suffer considerable psychological and emotional stress, which is treated by reassignment surgery. Question: if it's true as is claimed that this individual has no body dysmorphia - i.e., claims to be completely comfortable with and even enjoys her male body parts and has no intention of getting a reassignment, is she still trans? Were those who said transgender individuals necessarily have debilitating body dysmorphia mistaken? |
29th November 2012, 07:17 PM | #298 |
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I feel like reading about this person has jolted me back to reality.
There's a significant portion of the transgender community that really, really, doesn't like this person in the least, and I'm on their side. I was questioning my attitudes for a bit, but the common sense displayed in those "hate" blogs just cuts through the B.S. quite nicely. This is a person who went out of her way to make sure that young girls got a view of her balls. Of course that whole thing about "her balls" is just an oxymoron anyway. This is a man. He uses his penis to penetrate women's vaginas for mutual pleasure. Does anyone really want to say that she uses her penis to penetrate women's vaginas for mutual pleasure? Seriously? Having given the issue more thought than it deserves, I'm back to my old, boorish position. If you have a penis, stay out of the girls' locker room. I don't know what your are thinking, or how you self identify, of whatever else influences your sexuality, but I do know that you are perfectly capable of impregnating those with whom you are sharing that locker room. I can think of two exceptions I'm willing to make. First, any intersexed person is in a different category. Second, I'm liberal. I want to make people comfortable. If a person has begun female transformation hormones as part of preparation for reassignment surgery and as a consequence has been altered in body to the point where she is, for all practical purposes, intersexed, I'm willing to allow her into the girls' locker room. |
29th November 2012, 07:20 PM | #299 |
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As far as i can tell, there's degrees to "transness". From fetish right up to taking that flight to Bangkok and sticking the meat and two veg into that little tiny guillotine I hear they use for demasculating.
I don't know how well CBF passes and even with the operation she still might look like a modified he. Sometimes it's pretty obvious that a girl's had work done. Heck if I were to decide to try and pass as a woman, I'd need that cosmetic surgery suite that they had on Logan's Run. |
29th November 2012, 07:23 PM | #300 |
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29th November 2012, 07:43 PM | #301 |
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29th November 2012, 08:10 PM | #302 |
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They don't actually chop it off, rather cut it up and repurpose it into the Vulva and Clitoris with the excess skin being used to help create the vigina. But that is probably TMI for you.
As to this case, the more that comes out, the more I think that this particular individual is a jerk who's actions are harmful to other TGs. |
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29th November 2012, 09:01 PM | #303 |
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29th November 2012, 09:23 PM | #304 |
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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29th November 2012, 09:35 PM | #305 |
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This thread has been surprisingly challenging. That's not the right word but I'm too tired to think of the proper one.
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29th November 2012, 10:58 PM | #306 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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30th November 2012, 12:29 AM | #307 |
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It is a very simple question with an even simpler answer: offer privacy, desegregate. In that order, because even just providing privacy is a huge improvement.
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And now it looks like you're doing it again.
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It's as simple as that! And it makes no difference whether they change in the women's, men's or unisex locker room. Yes. Those who said that are woefully misinformed: body dysmorphia and transgenderism are completely different things. There are at most a few similarities, and they do sometimes occur together. Depends on the exact surgical technique used. Since Stout is talking about a sex change in Thailand, "chopping it off" is not entirely incorrect, though no guillotines are involved. Those are for circumcisions. |
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30th November 2012, 05:03 AM | #308 |
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Given a choice between private changing rooms and public changing rooms, I'm sure most people would select a private changing room.
Given a choice between public changing rooms and paying an extra $10.00 per month in health club fees, most American males of my generation would save the ten bucks and walk around naked in the locker room. It really would add a significant amount of cost to change typical health club, pool, or school shower facilities into private zones. I would not be in favor of regulations that forced such changes. I keep saying "American males of my generation" because that's the only demographic I have close experience with, and it does seem like there's a generational component. I changed health clubs recently. At my old club, they had sold a lot of lifetime memberships, and the average age was pretty high. We walked around naked and didn't bother covering up. My new health club is a newer club, and the average age is much younger. One day after working out I threw my clothes in the locker, grabbed my towel, threw it over my shoulder, and headed toward the showers, just like I always had done. I looked around and realized everyone else had their towels wrapped around their waist, concealing the boy parts.
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30th November 2012, 06:45 AM | #309 |
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30th November 2012, 10:48 AM | #310 |
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I see, the results of the bottom surgery are more akin to what happens when Bugs Bunny sticks his finger in the barrel of Elmer Fudd's shotgun, rather than a straight lop off.
Another curious thing about this issue. CBF was taking women's studies so she had to be at least aware of Schrodinger's rapist and cognizant of the ramifications of displaying the wedding tackle in a women's space. Good thing it wasn't Rebecca Watson who walked into the sauna. |
30th November 2012, 12:13 PM | #311 |
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30th November 2012, 01:56 PM | #312 |
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It has made me quite confused.
I'm all for a person with male genitalia who completely identifies and lives as a woman and is in the process of physically changing into one as well using the womens' locker room. Up until this business about the person in question's social account pages, I thought we were dealing with what the thread title evokes: a pre-op transwoman. But I'm not sure about that anymore. If the new information is true, this person isn't "pre-op"; they're 100% comfortable with the way they look, never plan on changing, and merely seem to prefer to call themselves a woman whilst enjoying having sex with women and men the way men have sex. It seems to me now to be a case of nothing more than a bisexual man who likes to wear dresses. Even the points raised earlier about how transwomen succeed in looking like women everywhere except for the wedding tackle don't apply to this person; Meadmaker is exactly right, "she" looks exactly like a middle-aged man wearing a dress. |
30th November 2012, 02:13 PM | #313 |
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30th November 2012, 04:04 PM | #314 |
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She has made changes to her appearance and her body. She obviously wasn't 100% if she's on estrogen. What's your plan for going on estrogen? Why are you asserting she has made no changes to her appearance or body?
Some people who would pass most of your other "Is this woman for real" tests don't fully transition. For some, they can't afford it. Some put up with less-desired sexual organs because they believe post-op parts won't perform. Sometimes they don't. Think about that before making it a dealbreaker for your support. It's easy to judge someone else who isn't going through with a "scary part" of a process for understandable reasons. As a side analogy, some women who want plastic surgery are brave enough to go through with it, others aren't; it's not a test of whether someone is happy with their appearance. There are tradeoffs with any surgery, it is not proof that someone is happy being a man. Admit it, many middle-aged women look like a middle-aged man in a dress. You are saying she should only be allowed to be called a woman if she passes your standard of attractiveness. The standard shouldn't be "Would I do her?" Which is part of the basic goalpost-moving that a lot of these discussions take. It's not just gender identity that is asked for, but attractiveness mixed with a desire to be celibate. Women can be ugly. Women can sleep with women. Women can be old. Women can want to have sex. Women can be kinky even if it bothers someone to think of it. Women can betray the fact that they're lonely on dating sites. None of these things are evidence of gender. They've been used as such in a number of posts here. On another note: I retract earlier complaints I had about her name and privacy. I see she chose to speak to the matter on television. I hadn't seen anything on the thread up till this point that she was volunteering her name, and erred on the side of protecting a person who was being targeted by both conservative christians and a branch of trans-denying feminists. |
30th November 2012, 04:09 PM | #315 |
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I don't see how it would need to cost that much extra. Once installed private changing rooms last for years; you don't need to install new ones every month. Also if you assume it will cost extra in the long run you aren't considering the damages in the inevitable lawsuit for failing to provide trans/prude accessible accomodations, and you aren't counting the likely increase in membership.
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There is nothing wrong with that as long as you do it in a place where that sort of thing is the main reason for people to go there.
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Good to know, though I find it highly illogical. If you think that girls shouldn't have to see penises and/or balls in their locker room, why is it at all relevant that those might be removed in the future? |
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30th November 2012, 04:15 PM | #316 |
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Assuming his behavior is appropriate, the mere fact of his nakedness around teenage boys will seem normal.
That's not the case around teenage girls. They will, and should be, disturbed by being around a naked man, regardless of his behavior. I had been willing to cut him some slack, on the grounds that "he" thought of himself as "she", and that what we were probably dealing with was a case where, due to lack of privacy enclosures he/she/something had no choice but to expose himself, briefly and accidentally. I wondered if maybe I was just being too old fashioned. Learning more about the circumstances in this case, I have changed my mind, or perhaps more accurately, I have reverted to a position I held some time ago. This particular person simply should not be around naked girls. Furthermore, there is no way to write the regulations in such a way that would disallow this particular man to be around naked girls, and yet allow a "real" transwoman to use those facilities. I have decided that the safety and comfort of the "regular" girls using the facility is more important than the concerns of those transgender individuals who are not actively in the process of changing their physiology to appear more female. |
30th November 2012, 04:35 PM | #317 |
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In this incident there was one exposure of genitals in a changeroom that was reported. Then, there was a swim coach who went off to find out about a certain person's genitals.
I still have not seen anything that says the woman was behaving in an obscene fashion. If it truly was behaviour that was in question, why would they dismiss the cops when they learned her gender identity? If she was behaving illegally, it would be true for any gender identity. Existence alone is not obscenity, except to the biased. There is one incident of, "I saw a man" and one incident of a person actively going to look between someone else's legs to see what was what. |
30th November 2012, 04:37 PM | #318 |
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She's living as a woman. Where do you think she should change?
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30th November 2012, 04:40 PM | #319 |
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Maybe to you and some of those men of your generation in that health club. To anyone else: no, it won't seem normal.
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30th November 2012, 05:19 PM | #320 |
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The biggest cost of a health club is floor space. The required space to change clothes and shower privately is greater than that required to do so within sight of the other patrons.
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I do think that one reason for modern shyness is a greater awareness of the existence of gay people. We didn't really think that any of our fellow high school students were gay, although some of them obviously were.
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