Blacklight Power

[Cuddles]

Originally Posted by Horatius

So it seems they're misrepresenting the nature of the involvement of the Harvard CfA, in an attempt to borrow their credibility. If you have something real, why would you do that?

It seems others got to it before me, but this was exactly my conclusion as well. CfA were simply the lab paid to take some measurements for a particular experiment. Not at all unusual for that sort of thing to happen, the lab I work at does the same sort of thing. However, normal practice is to either give a short acknowledgement of their help, or possibly to have the people involved listed as authors if they had a bit more involvement. To have neither, but constantly throw around the name as if they were heavily involved raises some serious alarm bells about the level of honesty here.

As for Gen3, I'm not entirely clear on what their involvement is. From their description, I suspect they are a small engineering firm that was contracted to build the equipment, and they may not have anything to do with the actual claims.

It's also worth noting that this does not appear to be a peer reviewed publication, or even a publication of any kind at all - it seems to exist only on their own website.

[Emet]

Originally Posted by Horatius

So it seems they're misrepresenting the nature of the involvement of the Harvard CfA, in an attempt to borrow their credibility. If you have something real, why would you do that?

Sometimes, when this happens, universities will fight back through the legal system.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Cuddles

As for Gen3, I'm not entirely clear on what their involvement is. From their description, I suspect they are a small engineering firm that was contracted to build the equipment, and they may not have anything to do with the actual claims.

Well, on that page, there's also a claim that the GEN3 founder and owner is on the Blacklight Power board of directors. Not sure how to prove that, though.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Horatius

Well, on that page, there's also a claim that the GEN3 founder and owner is on the Blacklight Power board of directors. Not sure how to prove that, though.

Nice Russian Board

http://www.gen3partners.com/about/team

It's seems to be a place that enlists minds to bring a product to market.


I like the idea of going out of the country for the personnel as it seems there are too many idiots in just one

[hgc]

If you check deep enough, the people collecting investors' money for this scheme are using some of that money to pay their electric bill to the local utility. 'Nuff said.

[davefoc]

It is looking more like the GEN3 paper is part of an organized attempt to deceive rather than any kind of independent test results. I found this post on a blog concerning the results:

Quote:

...
* Rowan University is not a leading university. It is one of only three American universities/colleges that has an undergrad chemical engineering program but no graduate program. In independent university rankings, it is tied for last in chemical engineering.
* Mills is playing it cute in that this announcement barely mentions his old buddy, Peter Jansson, who heads up the Rowan University chemical engineering department. I publicly outed the long term relationship between Mills and Jansson. They date back about ten years ago when Jansson single-handedly approved millions in grants to BLP when he was an executive at Connectiv, an electric utility. Connectiv was not impressed, fired Jansson who then remade his career by switching to academia. Any Rowan University study is NOT independent third party validation. Mills remembers his friends, and Jansson is a bosom buddy.
...

http://theeestory.com/topics/7386?page=1#p164750

I would have quoted more from the blog post by Oakthicket since a lot of what he had to say seemed relevant but out of respect to the rights of the site for material posted on it, I limited the amount I cut and pasted here.

The bottom line here is that BLP has succeeded in getting a paper touted all over the Internet as evidence of independent verification of their claims that were, in fact, homegrown results couched in the patina of independent results.

I would like for a few of the resident JREF chemistry and physics gurus to take a look at both of the papers linked to so far. It is obvious that they are extremely suspect given that they haven't been published in any peer reviewed journals, the connection between the testers and BLP has been hidden, and the underlying claims are inconsistent with current scientific understanding. But putting all that aside, what can be said about what is actually reported in the reports.

In the case of the Rowan study, I kept trying to understand what the experiment was. They seemed to be testing the heat production of a lot of chemical reactions and claiming that more heat was produced than standard data would have predicted for the reactions, but I could never figure out what they were claiming was different about the way they did the reactions to produce this anomalous heat gain.

In the case of the GEN3 study they seem to be claiming ultraviolet emissions from hydrogen that are more energetic than standard data lists for hydrogen emission spectrum and of course they are reporting that the emissions are spread. That seems like a pretty amazing result. What did they do differently to produce a hydrogen spectrum that is different than any hydrogen spectrum ever seen before?

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by davefoc

The bottom line here is that BLP has succeeded in getting a paper touted all over the Internet as evidence of independent verification of their claims that were, in fact, homegrown results couched in the patina of independent results.

could be but if the process is unique most may not have the equipment (detectors).

Quote:

I would like for a few of the resident JREF chemistry and physics gurus to take a look at both of the papers linked to so far. It is obvious that they are extremely suspect given that they haven't been published in any peer reviewed journals, the connection between the testers and BLP has been hidden, and the underlying claims are inconsistent with current scientific understanding. But putting all that aside, what can be said about what is actually reported in the reports.

to suggest that energy is stored upon mass, is nuts to the peers too but calories are calculated on most all packaged foods; go figure.

I find the possiblity exists but i dont have the equipment. I would do the experiment personally if i had the resources. Then you could have a first hand results but so far, this forum doesnt have the type of people who are willing to roll up their sleaves.

Quote:

In the case of the Rowan study, I kept trying to understand what the experiment was. [b]They seemed to be testing the heat production of a lot of chemical reactions and claiming that more heat was produced than standard data would have predicted for the reactions, but I could never figure out what they were claiming was different about the way they did the reactions to produce this anomalous heat gain.

they perhaps can capture a greater range of usuable energy (em) from all them chemical reactions (the layering of data makes hugenormous sense)

I like it.

Quote:

In the case of the GEN3 study they seem to be claiming ultraviolet emissions from hydrogen that are more energetic than standard data lists for hydrogen emission spectrum and of course they are reporting that the emissions are spread. That seems like a pretty amazing result.

UV is of greater range of usability of radio and the whole spectrum is usable with the correct mass (detector). ie... you get hammered all day long with radio radiation and only the few capturing the signal are using it.

Same difference.

Quote:

What did they do differently to produce a hydrogen spectrum that is different than any hydrogen spectrum ever seen before?

temp.

Within the spectrometer readings, they are cooking the specimen and then getting their spectrum. But a pure example is to notice the water issue of the moon; India knew to look for the specific wavelength for the specific environment and why india knows more about the water on the moon than what the USA ever identified.

You are experiencing a change within the sciences. An evolution of thought.

[davefoc]

One thing, I noticed about the format of the Rowan paper is that it is not clear who the author(a) of the paper is. Four Rowan faculty and staff members and five Rowan University students are listed at the front of the paper. But which, if any, of these people listed, wrote the paper and actively took part in the experiments? Do all four of the staff listed approve of the use of their name in association with this paper? I have read many academic papers and the format of this one is unique.

It is also not clear that the research was done under the authority of the university. Some of the experiments were done in the university laboratories, but was this actually university research or were their facilities rented and were some of their staff and students hired to do some work for BLP?

Exactly what is going on at BLP has been of interest to me for awhile, this recent flurry of BLP public activity is looking more like just conscious sophisticated scamming. Even, if you were doing legitimate research on claims that were so contrary to mainstream science that it was difficult or impossible to get your papers published I think it is still reasonable that what you do publish have the look of work done by legitimate researchers with clear cut acknowledgment of the the authors and the nature of the involvement of the organizations that are referenced in the papers. BLP related papers do not and as such it is seems likely that BLP itself realizes that their research is not legitimate and that it is just perpetrating a fraud.

[Wolfman]

I'm gonna' resuscitate this thread, as BlackLight Power have just put out a press release that they're going to do a live demonstration of their technology on Jan. 28.

My feelings are mixed. I'm pretty much convinced that, like many such claims before, it's a scam; but there's still a small part of me that holds out some hope that it'll actually prove to work as claimed (it'd be amazing if it actually did).

Quote:

Using a proprietary water-based solid fuel confined by two electrodes of a SF-CIHT cell, and applying a current of 12,000 amps through the fuel, water ignites into an extraordinary flash of power. The fuel can be continuously fed into the electrodes to continuously output power. BlackLight has produced millions of watts of power in a volume that is one ten thousandths of a liter corresponding to a power density of over an astonishing 10 billion watts per liter. As a comparison, a liter of BlackLight power source can output as much power as a central power generation plant exceeding the entire power of the four former reactors of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, the site of one of the worst nuclear disasters in history.

Quote:

This breakthrough transformational power technology can be witnessed in a live demonstration hosted by BlackLight of on January 28th at 11 AM. Details and updates will be posted at the company website (http://www.blacklightpower.com/). Those interested in attending can contact BlackLight to preregister for this limited availability event.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I'm gonna' resuscitate this thread, as BlackLight Power have just put out a press release that they're going to do a live demonstration of their technology on Jan. 28.

My feelings are mixed. I'm pretty much convinced that, like many such claims before, it's a scam; but there's still a small part of me that holds out some hope that it'll actually prove to work as claimed (it'd be amazing if it actually did).

My feelings are not mixed. It's ridiculous. We've seen "live demonstrations" in this free energy field before and they've been discussed exhaustively in the Cold Fusion thread. But this one with its promise of billions of watts per litre is the most outrageous yet. I hope they have a fire extinguisher near the apparatus during their demonstration. Then again, the reaction volume may be less than a litre.

[Horatius]

Quote:

applying a current of 12,000 amps through the fuel, water ignites into an extraordinary flash of power.

12 000 amps? That's a lot of amps. Maybe their "flash of power" is really just really sudden boiling?

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I'm gonna' resuscitate this thread, as BlackLight Power have just put out a press release that they're going to do a live demonstration of their technology on Jan. 28.

My feelings are mixed. I'm pretty much convinced that, like many such claims before, it's a scam; but there's still a small part of me that holds out some hope that it'll actually prove to work as claimed (it'd be amazing if it actually did).

It is ridiculous on many level. The only way to produce power from water are 1) oxydo reduction or similar any exothermic reaction where H2O is used as a reactant , like in metal+water oxydo reduction 2) fusion 3) if you are realllly willing to stretch it , an utterly hittertio unknown phenomenon

oxydo reduction based scam are a class of their own but that's not what is claimed (think "water fuel car" --- the fuel is not the water , it is the metal used and need to be costly replaced) it isn't fusion either, by their claim, and the absence of radiation or anything.

That leaves the unknown phenomena , which is what if I recall correctly , they claim. Google up Hydrinos , and the utterly laughable "scientific" article they published on it.
their claim is that the 1s level of H is not the lowest level, but that there is a lower level than 1s , and that in some circumstance they can force the electron to go lower than 1s, and gain the energy from that, then let the hydrino react again and go back to 1s , and the whole process give them energy.

No need to repeat, they never provided any evidence whatsoever of this, and nobody in the scientific field ever detected those "hydrino" neither in cosmic measurement or any other measurement local in labs.

It is a scam, and utter bunk. The chance of it panning out to be based on reality is lower than probability of having my girlfriend bringing two hot blond girls in my bed tonight and begging me for a foursome. Actually my chance are probably higher.

[Horatius]

This seems to be the International Patent Application they mention in the article:

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/WO2012138576

There are US, Euroean and Canadian equivalents, but they're all essentially the same document.



ETA: Just read the International Preliminary Report on Patentabilty. They rejected all claims as either lacking novelty or inventiveness over two of his own prior applications (and were a bit snarky abut it!) Essentially, they said, "Isn't this the same crap you tried to pass off last time?" Alas, they did not directly address the matter of utility (that is, does it work?).

[ljohnson]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I'm gonna' resuscitate this thread, as BlackLight Power have just put out a press release that they're going to do a live demonstration of their technology on Jan. 28.

My feelings are mixed. I'm pretty much convinced that, like many such claims before, it's a scam; but there's still a small part of me that holds out some hope that it'll actually prove to work as claimed (it'd be amazing if it actually did).

Their cell requires 12,000 amps to I guess kickstart the process. I read the press release twice but I don't understand how they produce power after they hit it with 12,000 amps of current. I guess we'll see if the 70M$ they have burned through is going to pay off later this month.
Has anyone used their chemical modeling software?
http://www.millsian.com/software.shtml

[davefoc]

Originally Posted by ljohnson

Their cell requires 12,000 amps to I guess kickstart the process. I read the press release twice but I don't understand how they produce power after they hit it with 12,000 amps of current. I guess we'll see if the 70M$ they have burned through is going to pay off later this month.
Has anyone used their chemical modeling software?
http://www.millsian.com/software.shtml

One thing that is very unlikely is that there will be a definitive answer this month or ever. Just about every year BLP puts out a press release extolling the wonders of their latest and greatest. There is never any truly independent verification although they have creatively simulated independent verification for years.

I have spent a bit of time studying BLP. I think it is the most interesting and longest lasting scam going. Exactly what goes on inside the organization is very difficult to judge from the outside. I think the ownership is skillful with the use of nondisclosure agreements and the people that have been successfully scammed over the years may not want to openly discuss how they were taken.

I am not sure that the ownership is completely cynical. They employ scam like techniques but that doesn't mean they are not true believers as well.

[casebro]

12,000 amps into a pint if water sounds like a plasma explosion in the works.

Though I do have a spot welder that is hand carried. It puts out 4.5kA - at 1/2 volt.

[BNRT]

Originally Posted by casebro

12,000 amps into a pint if water sounds like a plasma explosion in the works.

Though I do have a spot welder that is hand carried. It puts out 4.5kA - at 1/2 volt.

It's a water based solid. Which I guess means ice? Better wear your safety glasses!

If you can get in the 'limited availability event,' that is. You have to preregister and I really doubt genuine skeptics are invited.

[davefoc]

I read through the new press release. For people not used to reading BLP press releases it might seem impressive.

Unfortunately, for those of us who have followed BLP for a number of years it looks like same old same old. The press release contains this paragraph:

Quote:

“We at The ENSER Corporation have performed about thirty tests at our premises using BLP’s CIHT electrochemical cells of the type that were tested and reported by BLP in the Spring of 2012, and achieved the three specified goals,” said Dr. Ethirajulu Dayalan, Engineering Fellow, of The ENSER Corporation.

Wow, pretty amazing stuff. Except that ENSER corporation is an engineering services company and BLP has run this play before. They hire an engineering consultant, tell the guy what experiments to run, tie him to an NDA just in case anything goes wrong and then publish his results which always confirm the BLP results. Of course, this is not independent replication. Independent replication requires an individual who will attempt to do original work to investigate anomalous results and determine if something novel is at work or not. And he needs to be in a position to publish his results without BLP control. Alternatively, independent replication requires a device which can continuously produce power with inputs and outputs that can be reliably monitored. Despite, BLP's confusing rhetoric up to now, their experimental results are not based on devices that can continuously produce power. They are devices which produce a burst of energy and BLP claims to have adequately reliable experimental technique to account for all the unknowns in these one shot calorimetry experiments. I doubt that they do.

There may have been an attempt at independent replication that BLP cooperated with by one of the company's that originally invested in BLP years ago. I noticed an entry in a blog a few years ago by one of the individual's that participated in it. It sounds like the results were discouraging enough that the company defunded the effort.

There also was an effort by NASA to duplicate BLP's results. BLP provided the test vehicle for these tests. There were anomalous heat gains reported for the tests (although substantially less than reported by BLP) but the researcher in charge said that she thought the most likely explanation for the anomalous heat gains was recombination referring I believe to the recombination of hydrogen and oxygen in the test vehicle.

There was also an effort made by EarthTech Incorporated in about 2000 to duplicate the BLP results. BLP wouldn't cooperate but EarthTech went ahead anyway. They made five serious efforts to duplicate the results that they documented in the links I list below. This is from the conclusion section of their report of run 5 (their last attempt to duplicate BLP results):

Quote:

CONCLUSIONS:

Once again, our results do not match Mills' results. Our gas flow measurements are in sharp contrast with Mills' assumptions about the behavior of his cell. Combined with the fact that he did not actually measure the gas flow from his cell, this at least raises the possibility that Mills' assumptions were wrong.

The large discrepancy between our heat output results remains a mystery. Either there was something seriously wrong with Mills' calorimetry or our experiment is simply not producing any excess heat. The latter is certainly a real possibility and, in that case, we are essentially at the mercy of Dr. Mills to correct that problem, having replicated the experiment to the best of our knowledge and ability.

Until we receive such assistance from Dr. Mills, we reluctantly conclude...with uniformly negative results...our efforts to replicate his light-water Ni electrolysis experiments.

http://earthtech.org/experiments/blp/HiFi/intro.html
http://earthtech.org/experiments/blp/HiFi/run1.html
http://earthtech.org/experiments/blp...Run3/Run3.html
http://earthtech.org/experiments/blp...Run4/Run4.html
http://earthtech.org/experiments/blp...Run5/Run5.html

Bottom line here is 20 odd years of bluster and not one piece of solid evidence for anything more than the notion that if you keep repeating the same lie over and over there will always be a few people that will believe you.

[ThunderChunky]

Surprising that this scam has managed to last for this long. What idiots are actually investing in this company?

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by ThunderChunky

Surprising that this scam has managed to last for this long. What idiots are actually investing in this company?

This post list details from early 2009 about contracts signed with some small-scale electricity generating companies:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/01/bla...ed-second.html


Note that these were signed just after the really big spike in oil prices in 2008. Having seen their costs sky-rocket over the previous year, these companies were ripe for being scammed by someone claiming they could eliminate their dependence on oil.

Here's a fun challenge: Find any mention of these two deals anywhere on BLP's current webpage.

[Collin237]

Check any modern chemistry book for an illustration of electron orbitals. Sort of pear-shaped.

Mills says, however, that they're shaped like hollow spheres. Why? Because he invented the word "orbitsphere" and you can't stop him from using it. That's what he does; he makes up fake theories to support his made-up words.

[RecoveringYuppy]

The thread we're in now is very old. Check this thread out:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=334962