IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags acromegaly , diabetes , sugar

Reply
Old 20th June 2018, 08:16 AM   #161
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
How can that be is socioeconomic circumstances "make" us do things and we are victims of it?
How do you get to the grocery store?
How far away is it?

In my town there are large areas where if you don't have a car you are in food 'hard to get' area. Where a convenience store, Walgreens and gas stations are the only source of 'groceries'. This means in those areas it is very challenging to get to 'healthier' food choices.

Taking the bus is a possibility but sort of difficult with children, the bus drivers don't charge for groceries yet..
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 11:27 AM   #162
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,921
There are ways to get around this if people really think good food is important.
One example is a co-op, where several families get together to order large quantities of fresh fruit and vegetables..

I gotta believe the cost would come in way lower than convenience stores, Walgreens and gas stations...
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 01:47 PM   #163
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,294
Originally Posted by dann View Post
A very obvious example of anecdotal evidence: I did it so population averages don't really count!
By the way, this is how the American Dream is maintained generation after generation: Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos became billionaires, so being born poor (which they never were, of course) is no obstacle to a making it big in the US of A!
I tried very hard to emphasize that that is not what I was saying (even the bootstrap ideology).
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 02:03 PM   #164
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,294
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
How do you get to the grocery store?
How far away is it?

In my town there are large areas where if you don't have a car you are in food 'hard to get' area. Where a convenience store, Walgreens and gas stations are the only source of 'groceries'. This means in those areas it is very challenging to get to 'healthier' food choices.

Taking the bus is a possibility but sort of difficult with children, the bus drivers don't charge for groceries yet..
The question of access ("food deserts") is highly plausible, but empirically has proved elusive to establish as a major cause, and the bulk of the disparity seems to be on the demand side of the equation.

Quote:
These data suggest that the three key elements of a food desert, fruit and vegetable price, socio-economic deprivation and a lack of locally available supermarkets, were not factors influencing fruit or vegetable intake.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...95666305000462

Quote:
However, according to the study by Schnell et al., policy initiatives focusing on increasing access to nutritious food will only solve a small portion of these nutritional differences. Controlling for income level, the study finds that differences in access only explain 10 percent of disparities in consumption across education groups.

Furthermore, the study finds that households do not strongly respond to the entry of new stores into their geographic area, even though they are aware of the addition of new stores. When households change the mix of stores they visit once a new store is introduced, the researchers do not observe a lasting change in the nutritional value of their purchases.

...

In this new model of nutritional disparity, differences in consumption are a result of variations in demand, more than supply. According to the study, at least half of the observed differences in consumption can be explained by tastes. Intuitively, there are a variety of reasons why people eat differently, such as costs, cultural traditions, and marketing strategies for different products. Although it is unclear which of these factors plays the largest role, equating food access across all socioeconomic groups would still leave significant nutritional disparity without a complementary demand-side approach—at least in the short term.
http://chicagopolicyreview.org/2015/...nutrition-gap/

Quote:
It’s tempting to blame poor nutrition and obesity on a lack of convenient access to healthier choices, but the problem is more difficult and complex than that. Poverty and poor education are strong correlates of poor nutrition and obesity.
http://cityobservatory.org/more-doub...-food-deserts/

Quote:
Unfortunately, more fresh food closer to home likely does nothing for folks at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. Obesity levels don’t drop when low-income city neighborhoods have or get grocery stores. A 2011 study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine showed no connection between access to grocery stores and more healthful diets using 15 years’ worth of data from more than 5,000 people in five cities. One 2012 study showed that the local food environment did not influence the diet of middle-school children in California. Another 2012 study, published in Social Science and Medicine, used national data on store availability and a multiyear study of grade-schoolers to show no connection between food environment and diet. And this month, a study in Health Affairs examined one of the Philadelphia grocery stores that opened with help from the Fresh Food Financing Initiative. The authors found that the store had no significant impact on reducing obesity or increasing daily fruit and vegetable consumption in the four years since it opened.

Earlier research suggesting that better fresh-food access improves diet and would therefore improve the health of people living in poverty was drawn from small samples or looked at store availability in narrow geographical slices—often without information about how or where the people who lived there shopped. “They never link the neighborhood characteristics to actual individuals,” explains Helen Lee, author of the Social Science and Medicine study. “Without that, all you have is speculation.”
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...t_obesity.html
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 20th June 2018 at 02:08 PM.
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 02:51 PM   #165
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The question of access ("food deserts") is highly plausible, but empirically has proved elusive to establish as a major cause, and the bulk of the disparity seems to be on the demand side of the equation.
No, doubt but when the grocery is thee miles away and you can buy soda at the gas station ...

My wife and I also notice an 30% increase in our grocery bill this time of years as the produce begins to be better.

__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 04:36 PM   #166
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,921
How does the price of a banana or apple compare to the price of a soda at the gas station?
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 05:16 PM   #167
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Dunno. But a thousand calories of lettuce costs $20.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2018, 08:29 PM   #168
rustypouch
Philosopher
 
rustypouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,744
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Who would have guessed that rustypouch believed in the now obsolete willpower idea and the fat-shaming that went along with it, both of which nutritional science has proven wrong at long last ...




Yeah, right!
Yeah, I'm the idiot. Thinking that matter doesn't appear out of the ether. Believing that obesity is associated with all sorts of negative outcomes (diabetes, heart issues, decreased mobility, lowered IQ) and is not a good thing, that people can control what they eat (no matter how difficult it may be, it's still possible) and that someone's weight is directly correlated to their diet. That I want other people to have a higher quality of life, and acknowledge that it's withing their power. How foolish am I?

Your link didn't disproved any of that, or show that willpower is obsolete. It was confirming CICO, and musing on the difficulty of education and application, not that it's impossible.

Please, show me how someone can become fat without eating too much, but that's wading into Million Dollar Challenge territory.
rustypouch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2018, 12:43 AM   #169
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,294
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
How does the price of a banana or apple compare to the price of a soda at the gas station?
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Dunno. But a thousand calories of lettuce costs $20.
These are both quixotic calculations that people use to try to argue that spending money of soda is rational utility maximization, but they don't match how the vast majority of people make decisions in real life (See studies linked in #164 for price and fruits and veg in particular).

If we look at real world behavior and motivations, we see people decide what to eat and drink based on taste, habit, culture, satiety, and external cues like portion size and perceived accessibility. People generally don't drink soda in lieu of eating apples, or count calories, let alone calculate and maximize calories per dollar.

Socioeconomic status in particular seems to modify how these are weighed in that people reach for pleasurable habits that they can afford. It is similar to smoking or lottery playing, which I don't think anyone tries to justify as economically rational.

Quote:
Most of the parents I interviewed — poor and affluent — wanted their kids to eat nutritious food and believed in the importance of a healthy diet.

But parents were also constantly bombarded with requests for junk food from their kids. Across households, children asked for foods high in sugar, salt and fat. They wanted Cheetos and Dr. Pepper, not broccoli and sweet potatoes. One mom echoed countless others when she told me that her kids "always want junk."

While both wealthy and poor kids asked for junk food, the parents responded differently to these pleas.

An overwhelming majority of the wealthy parents told me that they routinely said "no" to requests for junk food. In 96% of high-income families, at least one parent reported that they regularly decline such requests.

Parents from poor families, however, almost always said "yes" to junk food. Only 13% of low-income families had a parent that reported regularly declining their kids' requests.

One reason for this disparity is that kids' food requests meant drastically different things to the parents.

For parents raising their kids in poverty, having to say "no" was a part of daily life. Their financial circumstances forced them to deny their children's requests — for a new pair of Nikes, say, or a trip to Disneyland — all the time. This wasn't tough for the kids alone; it also left the poor parents feeling guilty and inadequate.

Next to all the things poor parents truly couldn't afford, junk food was something they could often say "yes" to. Poor parents told me they could almost always scrounge up a dollar to buy their kids a can of soda or a bag of chips. So when poor parents could afford to oblige such requests, they did.

Honoring requests for junk food allowed poor parents to show their children that they loved them, heard them and could meet their needs. As one low-income single mother told me: "They want it, they'll get it. One day they'll know. They'll know I love them, and that's all that matters."
Linky.

George Orwell recognized this dynamic:

Quote:
Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on brown bread and raw carrots. And the peculiar evil is this, that the less money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an unemployed man doesn't. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'. There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you.
But it should, again, be emphasized that though we are talking relative consumption in specific areas (sodas, fruits and veg) for low SES people.

Fast food and "junk" food consumption and obesity has been increasing across the spectrum of class, race, gender, etc. In fact general fast food consumption, in relative terms, is highest for middle incomes. And the difference in obesity levels between income levels is not consistent between races, genders, and ages, and has been narrowing.

Quote:
Because it's considered relatively inexpensive, there's an assumption that poor people eat more fast food than other socioeconomic groups -- which has convinced some local governments to try to limit their access. Food journalist Mark Bittman sums up the sentiment succinctly:

"The 'fact' that junk food is cheaper than real food has become a reflexive part of how we explain why so many Americans are overweight, particularly those with lower incomes."

Our recently published research examined this assumption by looking at who eats fast food using a large sample of random Americans. What we found surprised us: Poor people were actually less likely to eat fast food -- and do so less frequently -- than those in the middle class, and only a little more likely than the rich.
Linky.

Quote:
While all segments of the U.S. population are affected by obesity, one of the common myths that exists is that all or virtually all low-income people are far more likely to be obese. In this generalization, two facts commonly are overlooked: (1) the relationship between income and weight can vary by gender, race-ethnicity, or age and (2) disparities by income have been weakening with time, particularly for adults.
Linky.

Focusing on low SES consumption habits, whether to "blame" or "excuse", is missing the forest for the trees.

People can consume enough calories to become obese from "healthy" foods, and eat maintenance calories while eating "unhealthy" foods. It's especially common in the rural South to see people overeating "healthy" home-cooked meals and staples. Again, food as love and culture. Though I agree on a population level the increase in hyperpalatable and nutritionally superfluous junk food has been a contributor, it is not the only cause.

(No one has made the argument yet, but I put "time and effort" under "perceived accessibility" for the general populace, as objectively looking at things like time spent doesn't match the subjective perceptions people have, and the objective data doesn't match the expected class variation in the first place.

Quote:
The percentage of daily energy consumed from home food sources and time spent in food preparation decreased significantly for all socioeconomic groups between 1965–1966 and 2007–2008 (p ≤ 0.001), with the largest declines occurring between 1965 and 1992. In 2007–2008, foods from the home supply accounted for 65 to 72% of total daily energy, with 54 to 57% reporting cooking activities. The low income group showed the greatest decline in the proportion cooking, but consumed more daily energy from home sources and spent more time cooking than high income individuals in 2007–2008 (p ≤ 0.001).
Linky.

Quote:
In the paper by Orazio Attanasio, Erik Hurst and Luigi Pistaferri called, “The Evolution of Income, Consumption, and Leisure Inequality in The US, 1980-2010,” evidence showed that the higher-educated (and yes higher-earning) Americans spend more time working but less time on leisure activities than the poorer income groups, according to The Wall Street Journal.
Linky.)

(While you might put calories under "satiety", as previously noted they don't go together. To take the example of lettuce given, you would have to eat over 100 cups of lettuce to get 1000 calories. You would be full far before that point. But if you were eating, say, peanuts, you could eat easily eat all those calories in a little over 1 cup and have room for more.)
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 21st June 2018 at 01:29 AM.
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2018, 06:37 AM   #170
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,921
Nominated.. Very insightful info ..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2018, 02:07 PM   #171
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
I can't wait for the nannys in New York to pass a law against delicious food.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2018, 02:13 PM   #172
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Gee, don't the poor people know that 8 pounds of potatoes and a gallon of milk supply everything you need?

My ahead of her time Lithuanian mother believed that, fed us that way. And I've got the resulting insulin resistance to to show for it.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 01:56 AM   #173
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,560
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The anecdote you refer to is a counter-example to the deterministic view you present, and one counter example is all that's necessary to show that a claim is wrong.

Where do you see the "deterministic view" that I allegedly represent?!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 02:35 AM   #174
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,259
From here:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, if socio-economic circumstances make us eat fastfood and drink sodas, we are active victims of our environments, but victims nonetheless.
Rather than arguing with me about a word, though, I think Tsukasa Buddha has actually had much more interesting to say in this thread than I have. For instance I'd be interested in your objections to post #169 it if you have any.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 07:55 AM   #175
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
From here:


Rather than arguing with me about a word, though, I think Tsukasa Buddha has actually had much more interesting to say in this thread than I have. For instance I'd be interested in your objections to post #169 it if you have any.
My take on 169: Perhaps the same thing that makes SES people grab a soda pop instead of a making a better diet decision is what makes them SES people to begin with? Might be nature OR nurture thing. Are the skinny people in India that way because of genes, religion, or low food availability?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 08:53 AM   #176
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,793
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
My take on 169: Perhaps the same thing that makes SES people grab a soda pop instead of a making a better diet decision is what makes them SES people to begin with? Might be nature OR nurture thing. Are the skinny people in India that way because of genes, religion, or low food availability?
We know the answer to that. It's food availability.

South Asians are more at risk from type II diabetes for a given BMI than typical Europeans.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23143010
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 10:27 AM   #177
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
We know the answer to that. It's food availability.

South Asians are more at risk from type II diabetes for a given BMI than typical Europeans.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23143010
I know. The obesity->diabetes link is overplayed. Commonality is not causality, chicken/egg among others.

But genetic Insulin Resistance seems the critical step.

So, how do starving Asains treat T2D? Low cals?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 10:53 AM   #178
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,793
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I know. The obesity->diabetes link is overplayed. Commonality is not causality, chicken/egg among others.

But genetic Insulin Resistance seems the critical step.

So, how do starving Asains treat T2D? Low cals?
That's the whole point. Yes. There was no selective pressure against a susceptibility to type 2 diabetes, but fattening oneself up might have been a good plan.
The vast majority of everyone's ancestors dating back to the discovery of fire (so well before our species) would have had their population constrained by available resources. Predation (including war) and disease (especially malaria) but not the major ones from domestication of animals (TB, Smallpox, flu, leprosy(?) etc) would have also had an effect, but by that time, hominids should have had sufficient tools and organisation to deter most predators.

Finding enough food, however would have been a different matter. Suppose you develop the atlatl and are able to increase your protein intake because you can injure larger prey from a distance. Then you end up having more surviving children and your population increases until your (increased number of) descendants are back on a marginal survival with an average of two surviving offspring per couple.

Later on, one of them takes up agriculture and the same happens.

Near-starvation has been the human condition for all but a very few generations.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 11:54 AM   #179
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's the whole point. Yes. There was no selective pressure against a susceptibility to type 2 diabetes, but fattening oneself up might have been a good plan.
The vast majority of everyone's ancestors dating back to the discovery of fire (so well before our species) would have had their population constrained by available resources. Predation (including war) and disease (especially malaria) but not the major ones from domestication of animals (TB, Smallpox, flu, leprosy(?) etc) would have also had an effect, but by that time, hominids should have had sufficient tools and organisation to deter most predators.

Finding enough food, however would have been a different matter. Suppose you develop the atlatl and are able to increase your protein intake because you can injure larger prey from a distance. Then you end up having more surviving children and your population increases until your (increased number of) descendants are back on a marginal survival with an average of two surviving offspring per couple.

Later on, one of them takes up agriculture and the same happens.

Near-starvation has been the human condition for all but a very few generations.
Yes, but the point was that starving Asians get T2D too.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2018, 12:08 PM   #180
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,793
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Yes, but the point was that starving Asians get T2D too.
I didn't think that was the case, although

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3715105/

Quote:
• Prospective studies from South Asia indicate that participants who were underweight as children have a higher prevalence of overweight and obesity as adults.67 Furthermore, in South Asians with hyperglycemia in adulthood, a relationship was seen with low BMI before age 2, followed by accelerated increases in BMI throughout adulthood.68 Being that 40% of the world's low-birth-weight babies are born in India,65 this is an important area for future research.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:16 AM   #181
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,560
Quote:
Det er nu en lille minoritetsgruppe på omkring 10-15 % som har et BMI under 25. (My translation: Only a small minority of about 10-15 % (of Americans) has a BMI below 25.)
Arne Astrup (June 23, 2018)

Based on this: Differences in Obesity Prevalence by Demographic Characteristics and Urbanization Level Among Adults in the United States, 2013-2016 (JAMA, June 19, 2018)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 11:06 AM   #182
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
U shaped curve, IGF-1 vs diabetes. Statisticians???

The most common insulin resistance gene is IRS-1, "Insulin receptor substrate-1". The substrate it codes for is also used to make the growth hormone receptor i n the liver, which then puts out IGF-1. Yet the relation of the IGF-1 to diabetes is a U shaped curve.- diabetes rate is higher at either low or high IGF levels.

But, is it a U shaped curve, or is it the top half of a X shaped relationship?

Which would require the known factor that the IRS defect raises insulin resistance and also lowers IGF level, but that an unknown factor raises insulin resistance but also increases IGF output.

Or is the concept better as a scatter plot?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 08:21 AM   #183
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,560
You might be interested in this brand new study, casebro: Mechanisms Preserving Insulin Action during High Dietary Fat Intake (Cell Metabolism, Sep. 27, 2018)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 09:27 AM   #184
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Let me c&p form the other thread about "drug companies lie to sell drugs", the two threads have drifeted together:


Quote:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS
— A total of 4,483 subjects aged 35–70 years
participating in a large family study of type 2 diabetes in Finland and Sweden (the Botnia study)
were included in the analysis of cardiovascular risk associated with the metabolic syndrome.
In subjects who had type 2 diabetes (n
1,697), impaired fasting glucose (IFG)/impaired
glucose
tolerance (IGT) (n 798), or insulin-resistance with normal glucose tolerance (NGT)
(n 1,988),
Looks like 'Insulin Resistance without Diabetes' is more common than T2D. And has a Relative risk of heart troubles of 1.7 the "normals", or 80% as bad as diabetes. (table 4)
It's the IR that kills us.


Quote:
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/33/6/1179

CONCLUSIONS HOMA-IR is associated with all-cause mortality in the nondiabetic U.S. population but only among persons with normal BMI.
From that paper
Quote:
" Using a mathematical simulation model, Eddy et al. (9) recently estimated that insulin resistance was responsible for 42% of myocardial infarctions in the U.S. and was the most important single cause of coronary artery disease."
IR is genetic, NOT caused by obesity. Quite the reverse.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 09:31 AM   #185
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Originally Posted by dann View Post
You might be interested in this brand new study, casebro: Mechanisms Preserving Insulin Action during High Dietary Fat Intake (Cell Metabolism, Sep. 27, 2018)
So fat is good. Do you suppose the mechanism in that study is why we like fats with our carbs? Pie crust, doughnuts, fried tortillas, bread and butter, cookies, brownies, cakes...?

Might it be that it's not just that fats slow digestion and absorption of carbs, but a hormonal effect too? We've each learned to listen to our cravings, based on the memory of how it made us feel last time we at that? Something more metabolic than the mental effects of endorphins.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

Last edited by casebro; 28th September 2018 at 09:35 AM.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 12:00 PM   #186
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,921
We like carbs with our fats because carbs are addictive...

People who are addicted to carbs, like carbs with everything...

Carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 28th September 2018 at 12:06 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 01:12 PM   #187
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
.......Carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient.
That is just factually incorrect. They are an essential part of any healthy diet.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 03:09 PM   #188
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That is just factually incorrect. They are an essential part of any healthy diet.
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
We like carbs with our fats because carbs are addictive...

People who are addicted to carbs, like carbs with everything...

Carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient.
Sort of both right. Fructose is essential, in that we do need it (to make membranes) and we do no make it.

And no, 30-70 percent carbs is NOT needed.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 03:11 PM   #189
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,921
It is glucose that is essential.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That is just factually incorrect. They are an essential part of any healthy diet.
If you don't count ingestion, technically you are correct, in that the liver synthesizes glucose in the absence of other sources.


Are Carbohydrates an Essential Nutrient?

Quote:
The lower limit of dietary carbohydrate compatible with life appears to be ZERO (this is according to Chapter 6 of the book: Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein and Amino Acids), provided that adequate amounts of fat and protein are consumed. This means, unlike certain fatty acids (fat) and amino acids (protein), carbohydrates are not an essential nutrient.
This is pretty good also:

Daily Carbohydrate Requirement: Are Carbs Essential or Not?
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 28th September 2018 at 03:30 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 03:26 PM   #190
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,724
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Fructose is essential, in that we do need it (to make membranes) and we do no make it.
Can't find any support for that. What makes you think that?

AFAIK no carbohydrate is strictly essential (meaning that we have to consume it) but eliminating them completely is hard to do without compromising other nutrients.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 06:35 PM   #191
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,646
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Can't find any support for that. What makes you think that?

AFAIK no carbohydrate is strictly essential (meaning that we have to consume it) but eliminating them completely is hard to do without compromising other nutrients.
My cursory googling didn't turn it up either. Except that membranes use a glyco-(somhtiung or other, protein?) which may require the fructose. If so, we can get it by breaking down some starches to get the fructose they hold. (but I just wanted to park this here for now, too tired to dig some more) (eta": blood glucose is 209, I'll take my dinner insulin shot, might perk me up)
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

Last edited by casebro; 28th September 2018 at 06:39 PM.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 06:55 PM   #192
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,724
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Except that membranes use a glyco-(somhtiung or other, protein?) which may require the fructose.
Glycolipids and glycoproteins are both involved in cell membranes. Don't know enough about the subject to know about fructose in particular being involved.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2018, 11:32 PM   #193
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It is glucose that is essential.



If you don't count ingestion, technically you are correct, in that the liver synthesizes glucose in the absence of other sources.


Are Carbohydrates an Essential Nutrient?



This is pretty good also:

Daily Carbohydrate Requirement: Are Carbs Essential or Not?
"Compatible with life" and "healthy diet" are not the same thing, at all.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2018, 12:20 AM   #194
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,560
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Do you suppose the mechanism in that study is why we like fats with our carbs? Pie crust, doughnuts, fried tortillas, bread and butter, cookies, brownies, cakes...?

I have no idea, but both human beings and rats seem to love the sugar-fat combination. To me milk chocolate and ice cream are irresistible, but in recent years I've had to stop eating anything containing ordinary sugar - stevia is O.K., though - because it makes my stomach produce too much acid. The craving is still there, but I've learned to stay away from sugar to avoid an ulcer.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2018, 07:53 AM   #195
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,921
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
"Compatible with life" and "healthy diet" are not the same thing, at all.
That was not what you argued against, and neither did I.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 29th September 2018 at 08:10 AM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2018, 12:08 PM   #196
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,560
High-protein diets don't seem to harm the kidneys: Long-Term Effects of High-Protein Diets on Renal Function (PubMed, June 2017)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 03:06 AM   #197
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,560
High-fat, low-carb diet doesn't seem to affect (men's) health adversely:
Mechanisms Preserving Insulin Action during High Dietary Fat Intake (Science Direct, Sep. 27, 2018)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 07:56 AM   #198
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,560
The same study mentioned in the Danish tabloids: Nyt studie stækker frygt for fedt i maden (B.T., Nov. 20, 2018)

The google translation says, "New study raises fear of fat in the food," but it's actually the opposite of what it says in Danish: New study curbs the fear of fatty foods.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 08:05 AM   #199
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,598
Their translation algo hasn't really evolved much, then, as far as diabetes?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 09:10 AM   #200
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,921
Originally Posted by dann View Post
High-fat, low-carb diet doesn't seem to affect (men's) health adversely:
Mechanisms Preserving Insulin Action during High Dietary Fat Intake (Science Direct, Sep. 27, 2018)
The highlights are worth mentioning:


Insulin sensitivity is maintained in both men and mice with high PUFA or SFA intake


Hepatic glucose production and de novo lipogenesis are decreased with high fat intake


High fat intake decreases fasting insulin and triacylglycerol levels


High fat intake changes the plasma proteome in an immune-supporting direction



For those who hear about ' high fat ' diets, and perhaps dismiss it without looking too closely; the fats that
are advocated in a high fat way of eating, are generally those that were available before the industrial age.

It particularly doesn't include foods deep fried in oil, and refined vegetable oils.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 20th November 2018 at 09:21 AM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:54 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.