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Old 21st November 2022, 07:29 PM   #41
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This is a look at the natural gaits of the horse
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This is a look at the Big Lick style
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Old 21st November 2022, 07:57 PM   #42
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Thanks, Angrysoba. Now I see what I was doing wrong
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Old 21st November 2022, 09:25 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Thanks, Angrysoba. Now I see what I was doing wrong
No probs. Thanks for posting!
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And quite right, too!

First off, we need to ban people keeping pets - it's so far beyond cruelty I'm amazed nobody's brought it up yet.

I don't know how correct this is, but it seems reasonable: 1.2 million dogs are hit by cars every year in USA: https://petplaygrounds.com/1-2-milli...rs-every-year/

Meanwhile, 5.4 million cats are hit by cars every year in America: https://mykittyfindings.wordpress.co...at-statistics/

That's a lot more than horses who get whacked for pet food, and dead cats and dogs have no use at all.

On the flip side, cats don't just cause harm, but have made entire species extinct: https://pestsmart.org.au/toolkit-res...-in-australia/

Fish? Don't talk to me about fish! Aviaries are the cruellest of the cruel - you take a bird that flies maybe 50 km a day and confine it to a 5m2 cage.

I think the only answer is we all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya while adhering to the Buddhist ideal of killing no animals and not keeping pets in any form.

Problem solved.
You jest, but I'm in favour of most of this, although the logistics would require a slow phasing out of pet ownership over several decades rather than an immediate ban, and some animal ownership might serve nobler purposes than enslaved companion/cute furniture, so there would be exceptions.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:25 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
You jest, but I'm in favour of most of this, although the logistics would require a slow phasing out of pet ownership over several decades rather than an immediate ban, and some animal ownership might serve nobler purposes than enslaved companion/cute furniture, so there would be exceptions.
I really donít think he does.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:31 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I really donít think he does.
I wasn't quite sure, but the paragraph on Kumbaya kind of tipped me off.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:34 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The fact that it happened at all, and that someone thought that they could get away with it in spite of the ban, is a good reason to oppose the sport.
Again that is a poor argument.
Nearly every sport has had cheats that break the rules. All sport would be banned following your logic.

There are cruel and abusive employers but we don't ban employment.

If rules are broken increase the checks and the penalties against cruelty.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:48 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And cows are?
Are what? Cows are animals we breed to be killed so we can eat their meat. Not sure what relevance that has to do with my comments about horseracing?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:51 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nonsense. I showed that the mere act of humans owning animals is dangerous to their health.
Not the claim you made and no you didn't.


Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Very well hidden. The appallingly corrupt outfit known as NZRSPCA doesn't like to advertise the fact, so the data is out of date, but I have no doubt it's still accurate.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/euthan...WEQOPWGPI2URI/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/loc...ncil-last-year

..snip...
Sorry I wasn't clear about what I was asking for. It was the highlighted part below:
...snip...
I'm cool with not allowing pets - I was checking the numbers today and NZ electrocutes (actual electrocution for euthanising) ~50,000 cats and dogs a year,
...snip..
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Get rid of the jockeys, just have the horses at the starting line and people at the winning line waving carrots and cooing at them, then it's the horses choice.

Alternatively, keep the jockeys but make them race each other without horses, that might be an interesting sport.
Even if you could train horses to race without jockeys it is unlikely to change much - you only have to look at the animal welfare history of greyhound racing to see that.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:56 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And quite right, too!

First off, we need to ban people keeping pets - it's so far beyond cruelty I'm amazed nobody's brought it up yet.

I don't know how correct this is, but it seems reasonable: 1.2 million dogs are hit by cars every year in USA: https://petplaygrounds.com/1-2-milli...rs-every-year/

Meanwhile, 5.4 million cats are hit by cars every year in America: https://mykittyfindings.wordpress.co...at-statistics/

That's a lot more than horses who get whacked for pet food, and dead cats and dogs have no use at all.

On the flip side, cats don't just cause harm, but have made entire species extinct: https://pestsmart.org.au/toolkit-res...-in-australia/

Fish? Don't talk to me about fish! Aviaries are the cruellest of the cruel - you take a bird that flies maybe 50 km a day and confine it to a 5m2 cage.

I think the only answer is we all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya while adhering to the Buddhist ideal of killing no animals and not keeping pets in any form.

Problem solved.
That's an avalanche of false dichotomies! I suppose you could have left some straw out to try and fit an extra one or two in!

Seriously - you have to know - how to put it politely - weak your post was in making a case for anything.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's an avalanche of false dichotomies! I suppose you could have left some straw out to try and fit an extra one or two in!

Seriously - you have to know - how to put it politely - weak your post was in making a case for anything.
You do understand that he is taking the piss, right?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Besides the slimy industry that's developed from horse racing, there are some pretty awful things that go on just in the horse showing world. ...snip...
Happens in so many fields when the "winning" becomes the only important thing.

It's rife in dog showing in the UK
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:31 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Happens in so many fields when the "winning" becomes the only important thing.

It's rife in dog showing in the UK
Is there a lot of money involved in winning dog shows? I know there is in horse racing and was prepared to chalk up the evils therein to the corrupting influence of money, but I don't know if owning a dog show winner brings wealth or just a public confirmation of madness.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is there a lot of money involved in winning dog shows? I know there is in horse racing and was prepared to chalk up the evils therein to the corrupting influence of money, but I don't know if owning a dog show winner brings wealth or just a public confirmation of madness.
Mainly that.

In the UK it is a tight-knit, incestuous group of folk that are obsessed with their ribbons and trophies, regardless of the cost to the dogs' welfare.

(Of course there are some good folk showing dogs - but many of the good ones get bitterly disillusioned about the showing and bring it up on internet forums when they get a chance.)
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:44 AM   #56
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We know The Atheist isn't joking about bannng pet ownership. We've already been round that one. Let's not do it again.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:58 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are what? Cows are animals we breed to be killed so we can eat their meat. Not sure what relevance that has to do with my comments about horseracing?
...and if people are raising cows for meat in an inhumane way then they should be stopped from doing so. If it proves to be impossible to raise cows for meat humanely then the whole raising of cows for meat industry should be closed down. At the moment the view that it is impossible to raise cows for meat humanely is a minority view but that minority is growing in number rapidly. Perhaps in my lifetime it'll become the majority view and juicy steaks will be but a memory.

It seems possible to keep horses for recreational riding in a humane fashion if the pampered lifestyles of the dobbins belonging to various equestrian friends is anything to go by. OTOH the white heat of commercial racing may be a different matter especially when it comes to dealing with "excess stock" whether it's underperforming horses, elderly horses or injured horses.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Mainly that.

In the UK it is a tight-knit, incestuous group of folk that are obsessed with their ribbons and trophies, regardless of the cost to the dogs' welfare.

(Of course there are some good folk showing dogs - but many of the good ones get bitterly disillusioned about the showing and bring it up on internet forums when they get a chance.)
It's supposed to be illegal to dock dogs' tails these days unless there is a medical need to do so. It never ceases to amaze me how many dogs of the breeds which historically had docked tails have such a medical need.

Don't even get me started on flat-faced dogs (and cats). If you look at a pug (or a Persian) from 100+ years ago they were perfectly functional animals not the horrific caricatures they have become.

A huge step forward would be to change the breed standards to promote animal welfare. If it is impossible to do so while still maintaining the breed then maybe it's time that the breed is allowed to go extinct.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:26 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Only after they serve their racing and breeding lives. Without racing or breeding, thoroughbred horses lives are shortened without doubt.

Yes racing can sometimes be brutal, and we canít know how horses can feel about this. But if communication were possible, I think horses would opt for survival. Isnít this what evolution is all about? Survival.

So, what you're saying is that we should implement a racing scene for every animal to ensure their continued survival? I'm sure all the elephants, rhinos, wolves, donkeys and capybaras as yet unborn, will be grateful for the chance to live a **** life of whipping and electrocution.

Your argument is mental.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's wrong with that?

Cows are an artificially-selected food animal. There's nothing morally important about preserving the species.
Diversity in species is quite nice. I'm pretty sure there would be some herds preserved.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Diversity in species is quite nice. I'm pretty sure there would be some herds preserved.
Why would you preserve herds of animals designed to be eaten if you can't eat them? They take up a lot of space and cost money to feed. Why not just let their wild counterparts take the space back?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:56 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Why would you preserve herds of animals designed to be eaten if you can't eat them? They take up a lot of space and cost money to feed. Why not just let their wild counterparts take the space back?
Because that seems to be what humans do. There's little point in preserving endangered species beyond that it's nice to do so and lots and lots of money is invested in it.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 09:24 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because that seems to be what humans do. There's little point in preserving endangered species beyond that it's nice to do so and lots and lots of money is invested in it.
Endangered species can actually survive in the wild if humans leave them alone and repair the damage they've done.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Endangered species can actually survive in the wild if humans leave them alone and repair the damage they've done.
No argument from me on that one.

I didn't think this would be that difficult.

I believe, but cannot prove, that if the world went vegan tomorrow, at least one herd of dairy cattle would be preserved because that's just the sort of thing that people do.

I could be wrong. That happens a lot.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
So, what you're saying is that we should implement a racing scene for every animal to ensure their continued survival? I'm sure all the elephants, rhinos, wolves, donkeys and capybaras as yet unborn, will be grateful for the chance to live a **** life of whipping and electrocution.

Your argument is mental.
A capybara race would be very cute, though.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:17 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because that seems to be what humans do. There's little point in preserving endangered species beyond that it's nice to do so and lots and lots of money is invested in it.
Food cattle aren't an endangered species. They're an artificial species bred for a specific purpose. Take away the purpose, there's no reason to preserve the breed. They're not even part of any "wild" ecosystem.

I'm sure if we started getting all of our protein from bugs, or vats, there'd be some naturally-occurring or naturally-emerging strains of bovine that would wander the wilderness in small numbers, untroubled by any demand for bovine flesh on an industrial scale, finding perhaps their own ecological niche(s) here and there. But today's beeves are an evolutionary dead end, if we're no longer turning them into beef.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:42 AM   #67
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Even if we stopped eating cows, there would still be morons amongst us that would want to prove they could ride that bull for eight seconds.

I don't like using the words euthanized or put down when referring to a horse who broke its leg doing what humans wanted it to do.

Just say my horse broke its leg, so I had to murder it.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:58 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Even if we stopped eating cows, there would still be morons amongst us that would want to prove they could ride that bull for eight seconds.

I don't like using the words euthanized or put down when referring to a horse who broke its leg doing what humans wanted it to do.

Just say my horse broke its leg, so I had to murder it.
Pretty much where I'm at.

---

I suppose there's an argument from moral necessity. We need food. Animals are food. Therefore we kill animals for food. No way to square that circle. And really, why would we want to square the circle of life? Ants tend and milk aphids. We tend and milk cows. What's the problem?

But we could also argue that just as we need food, we also need sport and entertainment. Animals provide us with food, why not those other things, as well? Is that also not a part of the circle of life?

---

On the other hand, I think bullfighting is a monstrous pastime, and cheer when the bull wins. **** those matador guys. With a curved horn. Right in the taint.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:19 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pretty much where I'm at.

---

I suppose there's an argument from moral necessity. We need food. Animals are food. Therefore we kill animals for food. No way to square that circle. And really, why would we want to square the circle of life? Ants tend and milk aphids. We tend and milk cows. What's the problem?

But we could also argue that just as we need food, we also need sport and entertainment. Animals provide us with food, why not those other things, as well? Is that also not a part of the circle of life?

---

On the other hand, I think bullfighting is a monstrous pastime, and cheer when the bull wins. **** those matador guys. With a curved horn. Right in the taint.
Avoiding unnecessary harm is a pretty simple moral standpoint even in a universe where nothing truly matters. And animals not having to die due to humans has to be some sort of positive on any scale that cares about morality. After that it's just a question of health (which I think is a non-issue in a vegan diet, but people can make their own minds up) and how much familiar food one is willing to give up.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:25 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Again that is a poor argument.
Nearly every sport has had cheats that break the rules. All sport would be banned following your logic.

There are cruel and abusive employers but we don't ban employment.

If rules are broken increase the checks and the penalties against cruelty.
Okay, then consider it a side point to my main contention that horse racing is a cruel and sadistic industry. It's one example of the way people will be sadistic towards horses in pursuit of their goal of winning races and therefore money.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Avoiding unnecessary harm is a pretty simple moral standpoint even in a universe where nothing truly matters. And animals not having to die due to humans has to be some sort of positive on any scale that cares about morality. After that it's just a question of health (which I think is a non-issue in a vegan diet, but people can make their own minds up) and how much familiar food one is willing to give up.
I believe that it is possible to raise animals for food in a humane way, with concern for the animals' welfare.

Except in the case of fois gras. **** fois gras. Any food that necessitates animal torture should be banned.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:49 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I dispute the "enormous majority" and "very rare" statements, but only in magnitude. Without the superlatives, I probably wouldn't dispute it at all.
I'm certain they're correct, and I've spent all my life around racehorses.

The vast majority of trainers will dob in a cruel trainer, and until you've had a guy like Stephen Autridge - one of the toughest little bastards to ever sit on a horse - crying uncontrollably on your shoulder when his horse died, you probably won't understand what I mean about the love angle.

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
You jest, but I'm in favour of most of this, although the logistics would require a slow phasing out of pet ownership over several decades rather than an immediate ban, and some animal ownership might serve nobler purposes than enslaved companion/cute furniture, so there would be exceptions.
As noted, I'm not kidding at all. Feel free to find the thread in question, but the harm done in keeping pets far outweighs the minimal advantages from how I see it. The carbon emissions alone are enough reason to stop it, but a lot of people let their emotions rule their brains when it comes to Tidddles and Rover.

When humans and pets are all vegan I'll be ready to discuss the subject further.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I believe that it is possible to raise animals for food in a humane way, with concern for the animals' welfare.
You don't see that killing an animal after only 5-20% of its life as inhumane of itself?

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Except in the case of fois gras. **** fois gras. Any food that necessitates animal torture should be banned.
I see Charlie has banned it from all royal residences and meals. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63676759
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:51 PM   #73
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I suppose another way to argue it is in terms of perverse incentives.

Keeping animals for food creates a perverse incentive. You want to maximize revenue per square foot (among other metrics). So you are incentivized to overcrowding, and so forth. Who cares if the animals suffer? It doesn't affect the flavor, and they'll be put out of their misery soon enough (or not, in the case of egg-layers and milk-makers).

And of course keeping animals for sport also creates perverse incentives.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:06 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You don't see that killing an animal after only 5-20% of its life as inhumane of itself?
Veal is a very questionable meat. I've seen that it's possible to raise the animal humanely before it is prematurely killed, but certainly most producers don't do that, because it requires effort. But to a certain extent I agree that carnivorism is inherently inhumane. But it's also not going away. I think it is incumbent upon producers to ensure that the raising of animals for food is done in as humane a way as possible.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:33 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It doesn't affect the flavor, and they'll be put out of their misery soon enough (or not, in the case of egg-layers and milk-makers).
At least in most of NZ, dairy cows are allowed a reasonable amount of space, being entirely pasture-based. Keeping them like sows in crates is inhumane, but without that, milk would be $100 a litre and the preserve of the rich.

Cows are a lot smarter than people realise, with a strong hierarchical structure and well-developed social skills. Even pasture-kept cows have a fairly miserable life - their babies are taken away at birth, they're stuffed full of unnecessary antibiotics, and if they don't let down their milk fast enough you can bet they're going to punched in the udder.

Some farmers are the lowest life form on the planet, too. I once watched a farmer break a pick handle on a cow's back. She was too slow getting to the milking shed.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Veal is a very questionable meat.
How about bobby calves? A life of four days is a tough break.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've seen that it's possible to raise the animal humanely before it is prematurely killed, but certainly most producers don't do that, because it requires effort. But to a certain extent I agree that carnivorism is inherently inhumane. But it's also not going away. I think it is incumbent upon producers to ensure that the raising of animals for food is done in as humane a way as possible.
Then why are horses different? Humans no more need beef than we need horse racing, and I'd venture racehorses are more humanely treated than cattle, and definitely more humanely than pigs, chooks and crayfish.

The humane angle is a bit of a rubber band - PETA says no form of growing animals for food is humane, farming groups say their methods are completely humane. I don't know where the line is, but I've been in a few freezing works and the cattle know damned well they're about to get whacked.

Capital punishment is universally (outside of a few crazy right-wing Americanos) acknowledged as disgusting and inhumane, so why isn't it for animals?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 04:01 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Only after they serve their racing and breeding lives. Without racing or breeding, thoroughbred horses lives are shortened without doubt.

Yes racing can sometimes be brutal, and we canít know how horses can feel about this. But if communication were possible, I think horses would opt for survival. Isnít this what evolution is all about? Survival.
This seems a little extravagant:

https://oldfriendsequine.org/
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:18 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Capital punishment is universally (outside of a few crazy right-wing Americanos) acknowledged as disgusting and inhumane, so why isn't it for animals?
Horses (and other animals) aren't being abused for punishment, they are being abused for our convenience or material gain.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:03 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Horses (and other animals) aren't being abused for punishment, they are being abused for our convenience or material gain.
I sometimes wonder if criminal punishment isn't entertainment for some people, considering how I often hear them talk about prisoners, but that's a tangent for a different thread.

There is a huge gray area when it comes to food- food provided solely for sustenance versus food provided for our pleasure. It's not only getting harder and harder to justify killing animals for food, but it's becoming glaringly obvious that a lot of agriculture is devoted to harmful practices that only exist because of money.

I'm not throwing stones; I'm a part of this dilemma, and I often find myself debating the morality of my choices when it comes to food. I don't advocate criminalizing people's food choices, but I do think we need to take a step back and take a good hard look at the things we do for either convenience or just our own pleasure. Even if we take the hard-line attitude that animals are simply a resource that we can use as we deem fit and have no rights whatsoever, that confers a responsibility on our part to at bare minimum not abuse that resource.

When it comes to horse racing, I think it should be abolished. But of course I have no skin in the game, and don't care about it at all. Makes it really easy for me when it doesn't personally affect me on any level.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:38 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Content warning: animal cruelty

Yep. I said it. I do not support the horse racing industry in any way and I think it should be outlawed. Here's just the latest good reason:

Jockey Ric McMahon sentenced over possession of jigger at Birdsville Race Club

While it is great that this bloke has been nicked for electrocuting horses, it is a monetary fine only, a slap on the wrist. He should be barred from racing for life. And this is just one issue. There are many, many more.

This gets a little hard to watch at times, but it summarises my position on racing in general, and the Melbourne Cup - the race that stops a nation - in particular.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Honest Government Ads (Juice Media) 2:28
I cannot watch those, but I'm familiar with this horror. I agree with you Art it is outrageous. I spent time at the Delmore race track as we lived close by.
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