Electric universe theories here.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

When are you going to explain how this supports the Electric Universe claim?

Never. Because he doesn't know. He just has a vague feeling that it must, because of buzz words. It's science by emotion.

He's hoping that someone else will figure out how it does, and meanwhile he's basically stalling for time.

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Gas pressure?

Statistical study of linear magnetic hole structures near Earth

Cant find any mention of gas pressure???

Plasma pressure, yes. Magnetic pressure, yes. Gas pressure, NO.

Where in your paper do use gas pressure equations? Are you able to explain how the external gas pressure collimates and accelerates "jets"., as per;

As any plasma physicist knows, the plasma (or gas) pressure is calculated by Pgas = n k_B T, or better, the sum over the different species in case they have different temperatures. There you go, gas/plasma pressure.

I have no need to explain collimation of jets and gas pressure. I have not read the paper. Too many other, more important, things to do.

Originally Posted by Sol88

You say no to gas when its a plasma but happy to state

Plasma is not a gas! A gas in not a plasma.

Do you not know this tusenfem, the super duper space plasma physicist? Different states of matter completely.

Whatever suits your fancy, Solly, maybe you should go to your EU friends and have them explain it to you, or you can have a look in Perratt's book (which I am sure you have a pdf of) and check some things.

Originally Posted by Sol88

Leaves you'se mob in a touch of trouble. regarding understanding gas and plasma.

Beginners stuff really.

You have not even reached the beginner's stuff yet, baby.

[jonesdave116]

Well, shock horror! Who would have thunk it? EU is actively promoting intelligent design (creationism)! I always thought they were more reminiscent of a religious cult than anything to do with science. And to think of the number of EU people who used to criticise Tom Bridgman for lumping EU in with creationism, on his blog 'Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy'!

At ~ 12:00 in this latest bunch of nonsense;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKOu-g5_e4E

So, what say you Sol? Are you one of the IDers (aka creationists)?

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

As any plasma physicist knows, the plasma (or gas) pressure is calculated by Pgas = n k_B T, or better, the sum over the different species in case they have different temperatures. There you go, gas/plasma pressure.

I have no need to explain collimation of jets and gas pressure. I have not read the paper. Too many other, more important, things to do.



Whatever suits your fancy, Solly, maybe you should go to your EU friends and have them explain it to you, or you can have a look in Perratt's book (which I am sure you have a pdf of) and check some things.



You have not even reached the beginner's stuff yet, baby.

So, plasma is a gas? Is a gas a plasma?

You still seem to struggle a little still.

Hot gas anyone!

[Sol88]

Can a CURRENT DRIVEN PLASMA INSTABILITY happen in a gas?

How is the current carried with in the gas? What are the charge carriers? Plasma, not a problem, in fact EXPECTED. l

In you gas/plasma pressure example, what is contain the gas to cause there to be a pressure? No containers in space.

In fact when you do try and contain gas/plasma it misbehaves. Tokamak is great example of your misguided math!

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Can a CURRENT DRIVEN PLASMA INSTABILITY happen in a gas?

Yes. Example: Fluorescent lamps.

Quote:

How is the current carried with in the gas? What are the charge carriers? Plasma, not a problem, in fact EXPECTED.

It is carried by ions. Plasma consists of ions.

Quote:

In you gas/plasma pressure example, what is contain the gas to cause there to be a pressure? No containers in space.

Gravity, radiation pressure, electromagnetic fields are examples that come to mind.

Quote:

In fact when you do try and contain gas/plasma it misbehaves. Tokamak is great example of your misguided math!

False. Containing plasma is no problem. The problem comes when temperature and pressure are supposed to reach levels where fusion can occur. And it isn't misbehaving; in fact it is behaving quite as expected.

Sol88, do you have a point? Do you just spam questions to seem smart? ...In that case I'm afraid you are failing, badly.

Hans

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So, plasma is a gas? Is a gas a plasma?

Is a square a rectangle? Is a rectangle a square?

Struggling indeed.

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So, plasma is a gas? Is a gas a plasma?

Yes and no, you know the answer, Sol, don't play dumb.

Originally Posted by Sol88

You still seem to struggle a little still.

Hot gas anyone!

Nope, I am not struggling, you are trolling.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Yes and no, you know the answer, Sol, don't play dumb.

I... don't think he's playing.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Yes and no, you know the answer, Sol, don't play dumb.



Nope, I am not struggling, you are trolling.

Yes and no?

Quote:

... don't think he's playing.

Ziggurat

I may know but ziggurat is less knowledgeable on the 'ol yes/no thing.

Maybe ziggurat does? It would be rude of me to assume the negative.

Is a gas a plasma Ziggurat? conversely, is a plasma a gas?

Quote:

I did, however, not say "revert to the gas equations", because, what would be the use of that???? You know a plasma is a gas, with some extras. So, you should use the plasma equations.

tusenfem

[Sol88]

Good to question to start with and by asking an expert

Quote:

a plasma is a gas, with some extras

...what are the properties that gas has that plasma does not?

[jonesdave116]

Looks like Sol is trying to Gish-gallop away the fact that his cult is promoting creationism!

Tell us Sol; is God a designer? Is the designer a God? Which is it?

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by jonesdave116

Looks like Sol is trying to Gish-gallop away the fact that his cult is promoting creationism!

Tell us Sol; is God a designer? Is the designer a God? Which is it?

Perhaps jd116 can fill ziggurat in on the properties plasma does not have in common with gas.


after all a PLASMA expert states

Quote:

a plasma is a gas, with some extras

When asked by me

Quote:

Quote:

plasma/gas? like totally interchangeable?

No, of course not, and you know (or should know) better than to ask such stupid questions. tusenfem

Basics here mate, basics.

Only 'cos I'm itching to get stuck into...

[Sol88]

Quote:

If the collisions are negligible (most often in space plasmas) and the magnetic field is strong enough, then the magnetic field lines can act as wires and you can use ideal MHD to describe stuff. Then it is easy and Alfvén comes by and you can have an easy circuit representation of it all.

Tusenfem

Can I use ideal MHD for a CURRENT DRIVEN INSTABILITY? asking for a friend.

In relation to the

Quote:

We discuss the possible causes leading to the formation of the observed kink feature for the GRG, which includes precession of the jet axis, development of instabilities and magnetic reconnection.

LINK

If we leave out for the moment precession the other two options are...PLASMA. Not gas.

tusenfem, sorta has got an idea

Quote:

What is a circuit?
Are you talking about a circuit representation of plasma physical phenomena?
Or do you want to describe the whole plasma as a circuit, that will be mighty difficult, because there are no wires in a plasma and particles are not guided through wires, but can move around through collissions and other effects.

but you also say

Quote:

plasma "wires" can hardly be "charged particles". Charged particles would describe the currents. If anything, then the magnetic field would play the role of "wires".
And see, if you cannot even get this simple thing correct, then what is the use of discussing plasma instabilities?

Care to discuss CURRENT DRIVEN INSTABILITIES in relation to a ∼ 200 kpc "magnetic wires of plasma", a FORCE FREE FIELD ALIGNED CURRENT is a much better description.

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Care to discuss

Uhhh, ................. no

[Sol88]

Thought so. Your just no fun at all!

Currents of plasma guided by magnetic fields sound very EU to me. Careful the language you use tusenfem, lest you be called a crank!

As long as your happy to spout your nonsense on gas pressure in space...

Quote:

The discovery of the ∼ 100 kpc kink structure from our study provides a unique opportunity for testing various MHD models on large scales.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Is a gas a plasma Ziggurat?

No. Just like a rectangle is not a square.

Quote:

conversely, is a plasma a gas?

Yes. Just like a square is a rectangle.

It's like you've never encountered the concept of subsets before.

[Sol88]

Well you know the difference between a square and a rectangle That’s good. Can you do 3D shapes as well? A cube? A box?

Anyhoo, what properties does gas miss that plasma has? Pretty simple question, I’d assume, from your understanding of shapes n such that you would be able to jot a few dot points down.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Well you know the difference between a square and a rectangle That’s good. Can you do 3D shapes as well? A cube? A box?

Aren’t you somewhat ridiculous now?

Well, don’t answer, it is obvious that that you have no clue of the simplest physics, despite your talents for digging out random sentences from scientific articles. You sometimes resemble a bot.

And yes, even I who have no special knowledge of physics know what plasma has beyond those of a gas. It should not be too difficult for you to look it up.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Anyhoo, what properties does gas miss that plasma has? Pretty simple question, I’d assume, from your understanding of shapes n such that you would be able to jot a few dot points down.

Get to the point. I tire of your stupid games. You won’t answer my questions, why do you expect me to keep answering yours?

[Sol88]

Righto you mob let’s focus here...on this kink in the jet...from a current driven instability (plasma not gas).

Steenkh, this is how easy it is to contradict yourselves.

What is a “jet”? In this case a AGN “jet”.

Specifically, what is “out flowing” in collimated magenticaly confined “jets” from an AGN/BH.

Do you even know?

We can then forget the gas is a plasma but plasma is not a gas game.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Righto you mob let’s focus here...on this kink in the jet...from a current driven instability (plasma not gas).

You still haven’t gotten to the point. Why does this jet matter? What is it you think this jet shows us?

[Sol88]

Quote:

understand the overall mis- aligned structure of the source. Further observations at X- ray wavelengths to study the gas distribution, spectroscopic data to understand the cluster dynamics, high-resolution radio observations of the jets, and detailed polarization ob- servations would be useful for a detailed modelling and un- derstanding of the source.

barbell kink paper

Xray to study gas distribution? Ok...What’s the the pressure of this gas?

Why does in not diffuse, after calculating the gas pressure. You can use tusenfem’s formula couple post back.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You still haven’t gotten to the point. Why does this jet matter? What is it you think this jet shows us?

What is a “jet”? AGN/BH Variety. As discussed in the paper.

Do you have a link I can investigate?

[Sol88]

Quote:

Abstract: The magnetic field is believed to play a critical role in the bulk acceleration and propagation of jets produced in active galactic nuclei (AGN)

Polarization Observations of AGN Jets: Past and Future

Of gas?

[Sol88]

So, instead of waiting for a non existent answer...

Relativistic Jets from Active Galactic Nuclei

Quote:

The nuclei of most normal galaxies contain supermassive black holes, which can accrete gas through a disk and become active.

Quote:

Relativistic AGN jets are formed when the black hole spins and the the accretion disk is strongly magnetized, perhaps on account of gas accreting at high latitude beyond the black hole sphere of influence.

So....Gas?

‘Cos, just a little further on...

Quote:

AGN jets are collimated close to the black hole by magnetic stress associated with a disk wind. Higher-power jets can emerge from their galactic nuclei in a relativistic, supersonic, and proton-dominated state, and they terminate in strong, hot spot shocks; lower-power jets are degraded to buoyant plumes and bubbles. Jets may accelerate protons to EeV energies, which contribute to the cosmic ray spectrum and may initiate pair cascades that can efficiently radiate synchrotron γ-rays.

Magnetic stress? Disk wind? Still Gas, I ‘spose.

But

What’s this? proton-dominated state? A Gas dominated by protons?

Oh, I see.

Quote:

Jets may accelerate protons to EeV energies,

jets of proton dominated Gas can accelerate charged particles now?

Is a gas a plasma? Asking for a very confused friend.

[Sol88]

Quote:

3.3. Jet Confinement
A long-standing question about AGN jets is how they are confined and collimated. This question likely has different answers at different radii. If we accept that the jet originates from close to the black hole, then it has been most commonly assumed that the jet is initially confined by the walls of a funnel formed by an ion-supported torus. However, this may not be present and, in any case, cannot extend to large distances where we still see jets being collimated. A gas dynamical disk wind may confine the black hole jet close to the hole (Globus & Levinson 2016). Alternatively, if the wind is hydromagnetic, then the jet may carry an axial current I which supports a toroidal magnetic field Bφ ∼ 0.3 (I/1 EA)(r/1 pc)−1 G, for r ≥ rjet (e.g., Begelman et al. 1984; Levinson & Globus 2017; Section 3.1.2). Ultimately, at a large enough cylindrical radius rout, which may lie within the wind, there will be a return current and the outward magnetic stress must be balanced by gas pressure (Begelman et al. 1984). However this pressure will be ∼ (rout /rjet )−2 smaller than the pressure in the jet. As discussed, the galaxy jet is probably directly confined by gas pressure, and in the lobes, in the case of FR-II sources, by the backflow of jet plasma that has passed through the hot spot shock.

Ahhh, gas pressure...pardon my ignorance.

Wait...what? “Jet plasma”?

Confused....

Quote:

Alternatively, if the wind is hydromagnetic, then the jet may carry an axial current I which supports a toroidal magnetic field

....

Quote:

Ultimately, at a large enough cylindrical radius rout, which may lie within the wind, there will be a return current and the outward magnetic stress must be balanced by gas pressure

Gas pressure, again.


Again, mainstream struggle with a force free field aligned current.

Why? They roughly just described it to explain colimation.

Oh....hang on...

[Sol88]

Quote:

6.1. Toward a Working Model of AGN Jets
Relativistic jets are the conduits that connect supermassive, spinning black holes and their atten- dant disks to their host galaxies and the Universe beyond. They were once seen as exhausts that, like their automotive counterparts, remove excess heat from powerful machines. However, the ob- servations that we have reviewed suggest a rather different metaphor. Black holes are turbines that are spun up by orbiting gas to generate high-voltage electrical power, and AGN jets are lossy, glow- ing coaxial cables that ultimately heat their surroundings. This change of viewpoint is supported by observations of selected local AGNs, from which we tentatively generalize to AGNs in general.
Nonetheless, this view suggests causal and testable mechanisms through which the type of AGN that is produced is determined by the black hole mass, spin, gas supply rate, and strength of the magnetic field, which in turn may depend upon the manner by which gas is supplied to the nucleus at Rinf . In particular, it appears that only powerful jets can escape the nucleus as su- personic, relativistic flows. This model also suggests that AGN jets can accelerate protons to EeV energy and that they could be significant sources of high-energy cosmic rays. This further allows jet γ -ray emission to be mostly synchrotron instead of Compton radiation. In toto, AGNs con- tribute to and are constrained by the γ -ray background (Di Mauro et. al. 2018). Understanding the content, power, electrical current, and duty cycles of AGN jets will help quantify their role in galaxy formation and evolution.

However, the ob- servations that we have reviewed suggest a rather different metaphor. Black holes are turbines that are spun up by orbiting gas to generate high-voltage electrical power, and AGN jets are lossy, glow- ing coaxial cables that ultimately heat their surroundings. This change of viewpoint is supported by observations of selected local AGNs, from which we tentatively generalize to AGNs in general.


Tucks n rolls....

The Electric Universe....

[Sol88]

Care to discuss mainstream electric universe ideas?

Crickets....

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Care to discuss mainstream electric universe ideas?

Crickets....

1) What ARE "mainstream electric universe ideas"?

2) How do they differ from the current paradigm?

3) What observations do they explain better than the current paradigm?

4) What evidence exists to support them?

If you can't provide sensible and relevant answers for this, there is nothing to discuss.

Hans

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

What is a “jet”? AGN/BH Variety. As discussed in the paper.

Do you have a link I can investigate?

Stop playing games. Just make your point plainly, if you even have one.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Care to discuss mainstream electric universe ideas?

Crickets....

There are no mainstream “electric universe” ideas. It’s all fringe.

There are mainstream ideas about electromagnetism, including at galactic scales, but you aren’t actually trying to discuss any of them. You’re just playing stupid games.

[W.D.Clinger]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

1) What ARE "mainstream electric universe ideas"?

Utter nonsense. (We can thank Sol88 for making that so obvious throughout this thread.)

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

2) How do they differ from the current paradigm?

Notwithstanding any incompleteness and other flaws in the current paradigm, the current paradigm is not utter nonsense.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

3) What observations do they explain better than the current paradigm?

None.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

4) What evidence exists to support them?

None.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

If you can't provide sensible and relevant answers for this, there is nothing to discuss.

The answers I provided above are sensible and relevant, but I'm not seeing how those answers give us anything to discuss. I therefore predict that future discussions in this thread will resemble the past history of this thread.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger

Utter nonsense. (We can thank Sol88 for making that so obvious throughout this thread.)


Notwithstanding any incompleteness and other flaws in the current paradigm, the current paradigm is not utter nonsense.


None.


None.


The answers I provided above are sensible and relevant, but I'm not seeing how those answers give us anything to discuss. I therefore predict that future discussions in this thread will resemble the past history of this thread.

Or, we might say that your replies both start and end the discussion.

I am, however naively, hoping that Sol88 might at least give it a try.

Hans

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Or, we might say that your replies both start and end the discussion.

I am, however naively, hoping that Sol88 might at least give it a try.

Hans

Quote:

Black holes are turbines that are spun up by orbiting gas to generate high voltage electrical power and AGN jets are lossy and glowing, coaxial cables that ultimately heat their surroundings.

6.1. Towards a Working Model of AGN Jets

Lets discuss?

How does gas spin up a black hole? How does the spun up BH "generate" high voltage electrical power?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

How does gas spin up a black hole?

It can’t and it doesn’t. And your source doesn’t claim it does either.

And even a bit of consideration would show that gas can’t spin up a black hole. There isn’t nearly enough mass in an accretion disk to make any significant change to a black hole’s angular momentum.

[Sol88]

Exactly.

[Sol88]

Quote:

6.1. Toward a Working Model of AGN Jets
Relativistic jets are the conduits that connect supermassive, spinning black holes and their atten- dant disks to their host galaxies and the Universe beyond. They were once seen as exhausts that, like their automotive counterparts, remove excess heat from powerful machines. However, the ob- servations that we have reviewed suggest a rather different metaphor.

Observation are incorrect?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Exactly.

Exactly what? What's your point?

If your point is that the spinning of black holes is some sort of mystery, it isn't.

[Sol88]

Did you miss this bit?

6.1. Toward a Working Model of AGN Jets

Do you have a working model?