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Old 3rd November 2022, 12:57 PM   #2841
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
It will condense from a gas to a liquid
Depends on the details. Sometimes it will condense from a gas to a solid. The point is, the fact that a cold container wall can induce a phase change isn't relevant to the definition of a gas, and it isn't relevant to the definition of a plasma. And plasmas are still gasses despite any phase changes they may experience when in contact with a cold container wall.

Quote:
...and won’t “fill” the container like a gas.
No ****, Sherlock Of course a liquid or a solid won't fill a container like a gas.
But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.

Quote:
How does the tommahawk keep the plasma a plasma and not a gas?
Did you mean tomahawk? Because that's got nothing to do with plasma. And a Tokamak (not a tomahawk) by itself doesn't keep a plasma a plasma. Just like a jar doesn't keep steam a gas.

Quote:
Could you keep the gas container using a magnetic field?
Not relevant. What kind of container you use isn't part of the definition of a gas. As long as it fills the container, whatever that container is, it's a gas.

Plasma fills the container. It's a gas.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 01:02 PM   #2842
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Quote:
What is doing what in a plasma and magnetic field?
That is all dependent on the plasma-β, the ratio of the plasma(gas) pressure:
The plasma let’s take ions
Edited by sarge:  removed rule 10 violation
the ions being guided by magnetic fields, forming a current. A magnetic field is also collimating this plasma flow, something about Biot-Savart law.

Where should I use gas pressure?

Would this allow me to determine the total plasma density and the magnetic field strength to try and get a handle on the the power(current) this “jet” has? What could power such a current? Gas/BH magnetic field somting or other?

We observe them.

In an astrophysical jet what is the main function of gas pressure?

Or is gas/plasma (space gas) a new state of matter?
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Last edited by sarge; 10th November 2022 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 03:56 PM   #2843
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Depends on the details. Sometimes it will condense from a gas to a solid. The point is, the fact that a cold container wall can induce a phase change isn't relevant to the definition of a gas, and it isn't relevant to the definition of a plasma. And plasmas are still gasses despite any phase changes they may experience when in contact with a cold container wall.



No ****, Sherlock Of course a liquid or a solid won't fill a container like a gas.
But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.



Did you mean tomahawk? Because that's got nothing to do with plasma. And a Tokamak (not a tomahawk) by itself doesn't keep a plasma a plasma. Just like a jar doesn't keep steam a gas.



Not relevant. What kind of container you use isn't part of the definition of a gas. As long as it fills the container, whatever that container is, it's a gas.

Plasma fills the container. It's a gas.
What? F you could put a plasma or for that matter, your “space gas” in a container, it would fill the container touch the sides and not be a gas anymore.

Simple question to you would, in relation to the tokomake, can you contain a gas with a magnetic field?


Quote:
But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.


A plasma is a gas, in space? Space gas?
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Last edited by Sol88; 3rd November 2022 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 04:03 PM   #2844
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Reckon you’ve found the mysteries of space gas... it’s actually a plasma.

Not a gas. Use plasma maths to prove it...to yourselves.

Using, say MHD.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 06:19 PM   #2845
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Depends on the details. Sometimes it will condense from a gas to a solid. The point is, the fact that a cold container wall can induce a phase change isn't relevant to the definition of a gas, and it isn't relevant to the definition of a plasma. And plasmas are still gasses despite any phase changes they may experience when in contact with a cold container wall.



No ****, Sherlock Of course a liquid or a solid won't fill a container like a gas.
But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.



Did you mean tomahawk? Because that's got nothing to do with plasma. And a Tokamak (not a tomahawk) by itself doesn't keep a plasma a plasma. Just like a jar doesn't keep steam a gas.



Not relevant. What kind of container you use isn't part of the definition of a gas. As long as it fills the container, whatever that container is, it's a gas.

Plasma fills the container. It's a gas.
Quote:
Image of the inside of a magnetic confinement experiment during plasma discharge. In a tokamak, plasma particles are confined and shaped by magnetic field lines that combine to act like an invisible bottle. Pictured, the spherical tokamak MAST at the Culham Centre for Fusion Energy (UK), where over 30,000 man-made ”stars” have been created. Photo: CCFE
Gas or plasma?

Oh, I see magnetic fields are required to "contain" the plasma. Can a gas be contained in a magnetic bottle?

Gas looks easy to contain, plasma less so.

Magnetic confinement fusion
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Last edited by Sol88; 3rd November 2022 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 06:29 PM   #2846
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Old 3rd November 2022, 08:31 PM   #2847
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
What? F you could put a plasma or for that matter, your “space gas” in a container, it would fill the container touch the sides and not be a gas anymore.
If you put carbon dioxide in a container at 100 kelvin, the carbon dioxide will fill the container, touch the sides, and not be a gas anymore. That has **** all to do with the definition.

Quote:
Simple question to you would, in relation to the tokomake, can you contain a gas with a magnetic field?
Depends on the gas. But this doesn’t matter. The definition makes no reference to the type of container.

Plasma is a kind of gas. Just like squares are a kind of rectangle. Are you really unfamiliar with the concept of subsets?
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Old 3rd November 2022, 08:32 PM   #2848
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5
Well, I guess that settles that argument.

Cheers McBeth!
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Old 3rd November 2022, 08:47 PM   #2849
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you put carbon dioxide in a container at 100 kelvin, the carbon dioxide will fill the container, touch the sides, and not be a gas anymore. That has **** all to do with the definition.



Depends on the gas. But this doesn’t matter. The definition makes no reference to the type of container.

Plasma is a kind of gas. Just like squares are a kind of rectangle. Are you really unfamiliar with the concept of subsets?
Depends on the gas? Continue...which type of gas can be contained by magnetic fields?
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Old 4th November 2022, 02:59 AM   #2850
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Depends on the gas? Continue...which type of gas can be contained by magnetic fields?
Plasmas. Duh.
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Old 4th November 2022, 03:15 AM   #2851
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Even plasmas do observe the laws of gravity (except in the EUniverse).
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Old 4th November 2022, 04:38 AM   #2852
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Righto, space gas is Nowa plasma. Long way round, ey?

So, gas in space is a plasma. Got it.
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Old 4th November 2022, 04:39 AM   #2853
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Even plasmas do observe the laws of gravity (except in the EUniverse).
Sure, do. Gravity’s a thang man.

But a charged particle in an electric field is not too concerned with gravity.
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Old 4th November 2022, 05:56 AM   #2854
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
So, gas in space is a plasma. Got it.
Do you? Because that means that plasma is still a gas, and you seemed to have a hard time accepting that idea, even though it's obvious and trivial.
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Old 4th November 2022, 05:58 AM   #2855
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Sure, do. Gravity’s a thang man.

But a charged particle in an electric field is not too concerned with gravity.
That depends on the mass, charge, gravitational field strength, and electric field strength, none of which you have specified. But then, you've never been one for numbers.
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Old 4th November 2022, 11:34 AM   #2856
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
So, gas in space is a plasma. Got it.
Nope. As usual you don’t get it.

Not all gases are plasmas. Molecular clouds are for instance gases, but are not plasmas.
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Old 4th November 2022, 12:10 PM   #2857
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Nope. As usual you don’t get it.
He doesn't WANT to get it.

Hans
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Old 4th November 2022, 04:58 PM   #2858
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Sure, do. Gravity’s a thang man.

But a charged particle in an electric field is not too concerned with gravity.
Lol. And why would an electric field arise? What about at the Sun, where the field arises to maintain quasi-neutrality in the solar wind, and at the Sun? Why did that arise? Because ions feel the Sun's gravity more than electrons. Otherwise the solar wind would be composed pretty much solely of electrons.
Without gravity, the electric field doesn't arise.
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Old 6th November 2022, 08:57 AM   #2859
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Regarding the 'Open letter to cranks', Novella also wrote an interesting piece on the EU nonsense:
Electric Universe Is Crank Pseudoscience
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Old 6th November 2022, 02:01 PM   #2860
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Lol. And why would an electric field arise? What about at the Sun, where the field arises to maintain quasi-neutrality in the solar wind, and at the Sun? Why did that arise? Because ions feel the Sun's gravity more than electrons. Otherwise the solar wind would be composed pretty much solely of electrons.
Without gravity, the electric field doesn't arise.
You think "gravity" drives charge separation in space? What can i say but el-oh-el

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Old 6th November 2022, 02:02 PM   #2861
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Molecular clouds are for instance gases, but are not plasmas.
Citation needed

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Old 6th November 2022, 09:08 PM   #2862
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Originally Posted by fertilizerspike View Post
Citation needed

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Citation would be awesome.

I’ll just post a wiki article...


Cold magnetised space gas...

Quote:
Physics

The physics of molecular clouds is poorly understood and much debated. Their internal motions are governed by turbulence in a cold, magnetized gas
Wiki

Poorly understood how gas does this?

Quote:
The substructure of a GMC is a complex pattern of filaments, sheets, bubbles, and irregular clumps.[5]

Filaments are truly ubiquitous in the molecular cloud. Dense molecular filaments will fragment into gravitationally bound cores, most of which will evolve into stars. Continuous accretion of gas, geometrical bending, and magnetic fields may control the detailed fragmentation manner of the filaments. In supercritical filaments observations have revealed quasi-periodic chains of dense cores with spacing of 0.15 parsec comparable to the filament inner width.[11]
Mmmm....plasma?

Or

Your space gas?

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Old 7th November 2022, 05:21 AM   #2863
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I find it quite amusing that you keep arguing that plasma is not a specific form of gas, Sol88. It is amusing, because here's what Wallace Thornhill wrote in Toward a Real Cosmology in the 21th Century:

Quote:
Most cosmic plasma is a gas influenced by the presence of free electrons, charged atoms and dust.
Should we then conclude that you consider Thornhill to be wrong in his explanation? Are you trying to tell us that one of the important papers about the EU hypothesis, written by one of the founders of that theory, is not correct?
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Old 7th November 2022, 06:28 AM   #2864
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Originally Posted by lauwenmark View Post
I find it quite amusing that you keep arguing that plasma is not a specific form of gas, Sol88. It is amusing, because here's what Wallace Thornhill wrote in Toward a Real Cosmology in the 21th Century:



Should we then conclude that you consider Thornhill to be wrong in his explanation? Are you trying to tell us that one of the important papers about the EU hypothesis, written by one of the founders of that theory, is not correct?
Contrarianism frequently paints itself into a very tight corner.
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Old 7th November 2022, 06:51 AM   #2865
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No it doesn't.

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Old 7th November 2022, 07:07 AM   #2866
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Not all gases are plasmas. Molecular clouds are for instance gases, but are not plasmas.
Ah, you beat me to it.
But I had no time, I was indoctrinating school kids about reconnection and stuff this weekend. :-)
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Old 7th November 2022, 10:30 AM   #2867
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The next ridiculous thing doctrinaire physicists will be trying to tell me is that charge separation by wind can happen in Earth's atmosphere.
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Old 7th November 2022, 11:41 AM   #2868
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I guess a good paper on the composition of molecular clouds would be:
Irvine - https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-011-4211-3_19
of course, ions and electrons will always be present, e.g. through ionization by cosmic rays
e.g. de Boisanger et al. - https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996A%26A...310..315D
in dense clouds a ionization fraction of 10-9

Then gravity again, if it is "a thang" I wonder why planets can hold on to all that gas. There is no pressure in space, so all that gas should just flow out. Also there should be no molecular clouds.

Space is weird!
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Old 7th November 2022, 01:32 PM   #2869
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Plasma can also be thought of as a fluid, is this correct tusenfem?

@5:15 plasma Wakefield acceleration.

Plasma as a gas contained on Earth.

So plasma, can be though of as a liquid and gas too?

Can we manipulate liquids and gases like a plasma?

Is the new plasma majic, for the mainstream, correct tusenfem? Any correlation with this and molecular clouds?

Space, plasma, is indeed weird!
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Old 7th November 2022, 01:36 PM   #2870
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
I guess a good paper on the composition of molecular clouds would be:
Irvine - https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-011-4211-3_19
of course, ions and electrons will always be present, e.g. through ionization by cosmic rays
e.g. de Boisanger et al. - https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996A%26A...310..315D
in dense clouds a ionization fraction of 10-9

Then gravity again, if it is "a thang" I wonder why planets can hold on to all that gas. There is no pressure in space, so all that gas should just flow out. Also there should be no molecular clouds.

Space is weird!
So molecular clouds will respond to EM forces, as they are still a plasma.

These molecular clouds are littered with star formation on “strings” of current thru a dense plasma.

Easy stuff champ, easy stuff.
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Old 7th November 2022, 01:41 PM   #2871
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Ah, you beat me to it.
But I had no time, I was indoctrinating school kids about reconnection and stuff this weekend. :-)
To what degree does a gas contain free electrons and ions to be considered a plasma?

Or a better understanding would be, would these ions and electrons respond differently than gas when exposed to electromagnetic disturbances?

For instance and solar “wind” with in a molecular cloud?
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Old 7th November 2022, 01:45 PM   #2872
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
To what degree does a gas contain free electrons and ions to be considered a plasma?

Or a better understanding would be, would these ions and electrons respond differently than gas when exposed to electromagnetic disturbances?

For instance and solar “wind” with in a molecular cloud?
Seriously, I wonder what you get out of consistently exposing your ignorance.

Hans
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Old 7th November 2022, 02:33 PM   #2873
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Plasma can also be thought of as a fluid, is this correct tusenfem?
Hannes Alfvén
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Old 7th November 2022, 02:36 PM   #2874
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
So molecular clouds will respond to EM forces, as they are still a plasma.
Whatever gave you the idea that molecular clouds are “still a plasma”?
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Old 7th November 2022, 02:57 PM   #2875
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Gosh, I wonder what molecular clouds might be made of.
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Old 7th November 2022, 03:42 PM   #2876
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Gosh, I wonder what molecular clouds might be made of.
Evidence points to a cold dense plasma, except around star forming regions.

You would call this hot gas...

No doubt there is recombination somewhere along the line, why wouldn’t there be?
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Old 7th November 2022, 03:49 PM   #2877
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Are there any free electrons/ions in molecular clouds, steenkh?

Tusenfem, maybe able to lend you a hand.
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Old 7th November 2022, 03:51 PM   #2878
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Hannes Alfvén
So a plasma is also a liquid and a gas!



WoW! No wonder the maths is hard...
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Old 7th November 2022, 04:27 PM   #2879
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
So a plasma is also a liquid and a gas!



WoW! No wonder the maths is hard...
Liquids and gasses are both classified as fluid (the intermolecular forces allow the molecules to more freely move and to flow) and hence are modeled as such.

Thus the H in MHD

ETA: A typical science class lab demonstration on the flow of a gas.

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Old 7th November 2022, 05:21 PM   #2880
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Liquids and gasses are both classified as fluid (the intermolecular forces allow the molecules to more freely move and to flow) and hence are modeled as such.

Thus the H in MHD

ETA: A typical science class lab demonstration on the flow of a gas.

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