Electric universe theories here.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

It will condense from a gas to a liquid

Depends on the details. Sometimes it will condense from a gas to a solid. The point is, the fact that a cold container wall can induce a phase change isn't relevant to the definition of a gas, and it isn't relevant to the definition of a plasma. And plasmas are still gasses despite any phase changes they may experience when in contact with a cold container wall.

Quote:

...and won’t “fill” the container like a gas.

No ****, Sherlock Of course a liquid or a solid won't fill a container like a gas.
But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.

Quote:

How does the tommahawk keep the plasma a plasma and not a gas?

Did you mean tomahawk? Because that's got nothing to do with plasma. And a Tokamak (not a tomahawk) by itself doesn't keep a plasma a plasma. Just like a jar doesn't keep steam a gas.

Quote:

Could you keep the gas container using a magnetic field?

Not relevant. What kind of container you use isn't part of the definition of a gas. As long as it fills the container, whatever that container is, it's a gas.

Plasma fills the container. It's a gas.

[Sol88]

Quote:

What is doing what in a plasma and magnetic field?
That is all dependent on the plasma-β, the ratio of the plasma(gas) pressure:

The plasma let’s take ions

Edited by sarge:

removed rule 10 violation

the ions being guided by magnetic fields, forming a current. A magnetic field is also collimating this plasma flow, something about Biot-Savart law.

Where should I use gas pressure?

Would this allow me to determine the total plasma density and the magnetic field strength to try and get a handle on the the power(current) this “jet” has? What could power such a current? Gas/BH magnetic field somting or other?

We observe them.

In an astrophysical jet what is the main function of gas pressure?

Or is gas/plasma (space gas) a new state of matter?

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Depends on the details. Sometimes it will condense from a gas to a solid. The point is, the fact that a cold container wall can induce a phase change isn't relevant to the definition of a gas, and it isn't relevant to the definition of a plasma. And plasmas are still gasses despite any phase changes they may experience when in contact with a cold container wall.



No ****, Sherlock Of course a liquid or a solid won't fill a container like a gas.
But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.



Did you mean tomahawk? Because that's got nothing to do with plasma. And a Tokamak (not a tomahawk) by itself doesn't keep a plasma a plasma. Just like a jar doesn't keep steam a gas.



Not relevant. What kind of container you use isn't part of the definition of a gas. As long as it fills the container, whatever that container is, it's a gas.

Plasma fills the container. It's a gas.

What? F you could put a plasma or for that matter, your “space gas” in a container, it would fill the container touch the sides and not be a gas anymore.

Simple question to you would, in relation to the tokomake, can you contain a gas with a magnetic field?

Quote:

But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.

A plasma is a gas, in space? Space gas?

[Sol88]

Reckon you’ve found the mysteries of space gas... it’s actually a plasma.

Not a gas. Use plasma maths to prove it...to yourselves.

Using, say MHD.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Depends on the details. Sometimes it will condense from a gas to a solid. The point is, the fact that a cold container wall can induce a phase change isn't relevant to the definition of a gas, and it isn't relevant to the definition of a plasma. And plasmas are still gasses despite any phase changes they may experience when in contact with a cold container wall.



No ****, Sherlock Of course a liquid or a solid won't fill a container like a gas.
But a plasma will fill a container like a gas, because it's a gas.



Did you mean tomahawk? Because that's got nothing to do with plasma. And a Tokamak (not a tomahawk) by itself doesn't keep a plasma a plasma. Just like a jar doesn't keep steam a gas.



Not relevant. What kind of container you use isn't part of the definition of a gas. As long as it fills the container, whatever that container is, it's a gas.

Plasma fills the container. It's a gas.

Quote:

Image of the inside of a magnetic confinement experiment during plasma discharge. In a tokamak, plasma particles are confined and shaped by magnetic field lines that combine to act like an invisible bottle. Pictured, the spherical tokamak MAST at the Culham Centre for Fusion Energy (UK), where over 30,000 man-made ”stars” have been created. Photo: CCFE

Gas or plasma?

Oh, I see magnetic fields are required to "contain" the plasma. Can a gas be contained in a magnetic bottle?

Gas looks easy to contain, plasma less so.

Magnetic confinement fusion

[Hellbound]

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

What? F you could put a plasma or for that matter, your “space gas” in a container, it would fill the container touch the sides and not be a gas anymore.

If you put carbon dioxide in a container at 100 kelvin, the carbon dioxide will fill the container, touch the sides, and not be a gas anymore. That has **** all to do with the definition.

Quote:

Simple question to you would, in relation to the tokomake, can you contain a gas with a magnetic field?

Depends on the gas. But this doesn’t matter. The definition makes no reference to the type of container.

Plasma is a kind of gas. Just like squares are a kind of rectangle. Are you really unfamiliar with the concept of subsets?

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Hellbound

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5

Well, I guess that settles that argument.

Cheers McBeth!

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If you put carbon dioxide in a container at 100 kelvin, the carbon dioxide will fill the container, touch the sides, and not be a gas anymore. That has **** all to do with the definition.



Depends on the gas. But this doesn’t matter. The definition makes no reference to the type of container.

Plasma is a kind of gas. Just like squares are a kind of rectangle. Are you really unfamiliar with the concept of subsets?

Depends on the gas? Continue...which type of gas can be contained by magnetic fields?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Depends on the gas? Continue...which type of gas can be contained by magnetic fields?

Plasmas. Duh.

[tusenfem]

Even plasmas do observe the laws of gravity (except in the EUniverse).

[Sol88]

Righto, space gas is Nowa plasma. Long way round, ey?

So, gas in space is a plasma. Got it.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Even plasmas do observe the laws of gravity (except in the EUniverse).

Sure, do. Gravity’s a thang man.

But a charged particle in an electric field is not too concerned with gravity.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So, gas in space is a plasma. Got it.

Do you? Because that means that plasma is still a gas, and you seemed to have a hard time accepting that idea, even though it's obvious and trivial.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Sure, do. Gravity’s a thang man.

But a charged particle in an electric field is not too concerned with gravity.

That depends on the mass, charge, gravitational field strength, and electric field strength, none of which you have specified. But then, you've never been one for numbers.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So, gas in space is a plasma. Got it.

Nope. As usual you don’t get it.

Not all gases are plasmas. Molecular clouds are for instance gases, but are not plasmas.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by steenkh

Nope. As usual you don’t get it.

He doesn't WANT to get it.

Hans

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Sure, do. Gravity’s a thang man.

But a charged particle in an electric field is not too concerned with gravity.

Lol. And why would an electric field arise? What about at the Sun, where the field arises to maintain quasi-neutrality in the solar wind, and at the Sun? Why did that arise? Because ions feel the Sun's gravity more than electrons. Otherwise the solar wind would be composed pretty much solely of electrons.
Without gravity, the electric field doesn't arise.

[catsmate]

Regarding the 'Open letter to cranks', Novella also wrote an interesting piece on the EU nonsense:
Electric Universe Is Crank Pseudoscience

[fertilizerspike]

Originally Posted by jonesdave116

Lol. And why would an electric field arise? What about at the Sun, where the field arises to maintain quasi-neutrality in the solar wind, and at the Sun? Why did that arise? Because ions feel the Sun's gravity more than electrons. Otherwise the solar wind would be composed pretty much solely of electrons.
Without gravity, the electric field doesn't arise.

You think "gravity" drives charge separation in space? What can i say but el-oh-el

Sent from my SM-S111DL using Tapatalk

[fertilizerspike]

Originally Posted by steenkh

Molecular clouds are for instance gases, but are not plasmas.

Citation needed

Sent from my SM-S111DL using Tapatalk

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by fertilizerspike

Citation needed

Sent from my SM-S111DL using Tapatalk

Citation would be awesome.

I’ll just post a wiki article...


Cold magnetised space gas...

Quote:

Physics

The physics of molecular clouds is poorly understood and much debated. Their internal motions are governed by turbulence in a cold, magnetized gas

Wiki

Poorly understood how gas does this?

Quote:

The substructure of a GMC is a complex pattern of filaments, sheets, bubbles, and irregular clumps.[5]

Filaments are truly ubiquitous in the molecular cloud. Dense molecular filaments will fragment into gravitationally bound cores, most of which will evolve into stars. Continuous accretion of gas, geometrical bending, and magnetic fields may control the detailed fragmentation manner of the filaments. In supercritical filaments observations have revealed quasi-periodic chains of dense cores with spacing of 0.15 parsec comparable to the filament inner width.[11]

Mmmm....plasma?

Or

Your space gas?

[lauwenmark]

I find it quite amusing that you keep arguing that plasma is not a specific form of gas, Sol88. It is amusing, because here's what Wallace Thornhill wrote in Toward a Real Cosmology in the 21th Century:

Quote:

Most cosmic plasma is a gas influenced by the presence of free electrons, charged atoms and dust.

Should we then conclude that you consider Thornhill to be wrong in his explanation? Are you trying to tell us that one of the important papers about the EU hypothesis, written by one of the founders of that theory, is not correct?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by lauwenmark

I find it quite amusing that you keep arguing that plasma is not a specific form of gas, Sol88. It is amusing, because here's what Wallace Thornhill wrote in Toward a Real Cosmology in the 21th Century:



Should we then conclude that you consider Thornhill to be wrong in his explanation? Are you trying to tell us that one of the important papers about the EU hypothesis, written by one of the founders of that theory, is not correct?

Contrarianism frequently paints itself into a very tight corner.

[Little 10 Toes]

No it doesn't.

[/sarcasm]

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by steenkh

Not all gases are plasmas. Molecular clouds are for instance gases, but are not plasmas.

Ah, you beat me to it.
But I had no time, I was indoctrinating school kids about reconnection and stuff this weekend. :-)

[Myriad]

The next ridiculous thing doctrinaire physicists will be trying to tell me is that charge separation by wind can happen in Earth's atmosphere.

[tusenfem]

I guess a good paper on the composition of molecular clouds would be:
Irvine - https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-011-4211-3_19
of course, ions and electrons will always be present, e.g. through ionization by cosmic rays
e.g. de Boisanger et al. - https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996A%26A...310..315D
in dense clouds a ionization fraction of 10^-9

Then gravity again, if it is "a thang" I wonder why planets can hold on to all that gas. There is no pressure in space, so all that gas should just flow out. Also there should be no molecular clouds.

Space is weird!

[Sol88]

Plasma can also be thought of as a fluid, is this correct tusenfem?

@5:15 plasma Wakefield acceleration.

Plasma as a gas contained on Earth.

So plasma, can be though of as a liquid and gas too?

Can we manipulate liquids and gases like a plasma?

Is the new plasma majic, for the mainstream, correct tusenfem? Any correlation with this and molecular clouds?

Space, plasma, is indeed weird!

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

I guess a good paper on the composition of molecular clouds would be:
Irvine - https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-011-4211-3_19
of course, ions and electrons will always be present, e.g. through ionization by cosmic rays
e.g. de Boisanger et al. - https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996A%26A...310..315D
in dense clouds a ionization fraction of 10^-9

Then gravity again, if it is "a thang" I wonder why planets can hold on to all that gas. There is no pressure in space, so all that gas should just flow out. Also there should be no molecular clouds.

Space is weird!

So molecular clouds will respond to EM forces, as they are still a plasma.

These molecular clouds are littered with star formation on “strings” of current thru a dense plasma.

Easy stuff champ, easy stuff.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Ah, you beat me to it.
But I had no time, I was indoctrinating school kids about reconnection and stuff this weekend. :-)

To what degree does a gas contain free electrons and ions to be considered a plasma?

Or a better understanding would be, would these ions and electrons respond differently than gas when exposed to electromagnetic disturbances?

For instance and solar “wind” with in a molecular cloud?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Sol88

To what degree does a gas contain free electrons and ions to be considered a plasma?

Or a better understanding would be, would these ions and electrons respond differently than gas when exposed to electromagnetic disturbances?

For instance and solar “wind” with in a molecular cloud?

Seriously, I wonder what you get out of consistently exposing your ignorance.

Hans

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Plasma can also be thought of as a fluid, is this correct tusenfem?

Hannes Alfvén

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So molecular clouds will respond to EM forces, as they are still a plasma.

Whatever gave you the idea that molecular clouds are “still a plasma”?

[RecoveringYuppy]

Gosh, I wonder what molecular clouds might be made of.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Gosh, I wonder what molecular clouds might be made of.

Evidence points to a cold dense plasma, except around star forming regions.

You would call this hot gas...

No doubt there is recombination somewhere along the line, why wouldn’t there be?

[Sol88]

Are there any free electrons/ions in molecular clouds, steenkh?

Tusenfem, maybe able to lend you a hand.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Hannes Alfvén

So a plasma is also a liquid and a gas!



WoW! No wonder the maths is hard...

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So a plasma is also a liquid and a gas!



WoW! No wonder the maths is hard...

Liquids and gasses are both classified as fluid (the intermolecular forces allow the molecules to more freely move and to flow) and hence are modeled as such.

Thus the H in MHD

ETA: A typical science class lab demonstration on the flow of a gas.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Steve]

Originally Posted by The Man

Liquids and gasses are both classified as fluid (the intermolecular forces allow the molecules to more freely move and to flow) and hence are modeled as such.

Thus the H in MHD

ETA: A typical science class lab demonstration on the flow of a gas.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Basic science is incomprehensible to some.