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Tags apollo hoax , moon landing hoax

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Old 19th December 2013, 08:51 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Because colors in photographs are always true and unchanged regardless of technology or circumstances.
Jay you're not suggesting that in a mere 40+ years that technology may have gotten better - truly a radical and unsupported contention indeed....lol
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Old 19th December 2013, 09:06 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Jay you're not suggesting that in a mere 40+ years that technology may have gotten better - truly a radical and unsupported contention indeed....lol
As equally unsupported a proposition as that Ektachrome film and a CCD might render colors identically in any era. Or any two film types. Or any unequally calibrated CCDs. Or that the Moon is the same color everywhere.
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Old 19th December 2013, 11:03 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
As equally unsupported a proposition as that Ektachrome film and a CCD might render colors identically in any era. Or any two film types. Or any unequally calibrated CCDs. Or that the Moon is the same color everywhere.

I once shot a very well received monochrome photo of a snowscape. I broke a lot of rules, shooting up sun with a very short lens. In the print, the snow comes out a very dark gray with lighter highlights.* So Anders, if you saw that image, would you say it doesn't snow in Chicago, and landscape was covered with lava? How something appears on film, or any imaging system, including the human eye, depends on how it's lit.



*A lot of very expensive paper went into the trash getting the print right - the negative was very thin, except for the Sun and sky, which were very dense. I love the digital age!
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Old 19th December 2013, 11:10 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by SUSpilot View Post
So Anders, if you saw that image, would you say it doesn't snow in Chicago, and landscape was covered with lava?
Cherry picking a special case like that is unsustainable. My claim on the other hand is based on a large number of NASA color images of the moon landscape.
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Old 19th December 2013, 11:16 PM   #525
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The same accusation can be made for my Chang'e 3 claim, that I only cherry picked one special image that happened to look a bit brownish.

So here is another image from Chang'e 3: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ph...32968354_2.htm

From: http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/...235886501.html
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Old 19th December 2013, 11:23 PM   #526
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Compare with an artist's rendering of the Chang'e 3 mission: http://i.space.com/images/i/000/034/...jpg?1385823290

http://www.space.com/23965-china-moo...operation.html

The artist was no doubt inspired by the Apollo moon pictures. Totally black-and-white lunar landscape!
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Old 19th December 2013, 11:23 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Cherry picking a special case like that is unsustainable. My claim on the other hand is based on a large number of NASA color images of the moon landscape.

It's not cherry picking. My point is that lighting directly affects an image. After all, an overcast sky is blindingly white from above, to take an extreme example.

In this case, the sun angle reflecting from the dust is going to have a huge affect, with different spectra reflected to the camera.

Besides, as Jay mentioned, the Moon is not homogenous.

Finally, as any competent photographer will tell you, getting the true color (whatever that is!) in an image can be a monumental task.
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Old 19th December 2013, 11:53 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by SUSpilot View Post
It's not cherry picking. My point is that lighting directly affects an image. After all, an overcast sky is blindingly white from above, to take an extreme example.

In this case, the sun angle reflecting from the dust is going to have a huge affect, with different spectra reflected to the camera.

Besides, as Jay mentioned, the Moon is not homogenous.

Finally, as any competent photographer will tell you, getting the true color (whatever that is!) in an image can be a monumental task.
Now you have digressed to a straw man argument. You could check this out:

"An unbiased (representative) sample is a set of objects chosen from a complete sample using a selection process that does not depend on the properties of the objects." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_%28statistics%29
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Old 20th December 2013, 02:16 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by SUSpilot View Post
How something appears on film, or any imaging system, including the human eye, depends on how it's lit.

^^^ This times a thousand. Anyone who's ever worked in the movie or publishing industries understands this completely.
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:08 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
^^^ This times a thousand. Anyone who's ever worked in the movie or publishing industries understands this completely.
See also: anyone who's ever shot in RAW mode on dSLR and changed lighting mode from Sunny to Indoor
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Old 20th December 2013, 07:45 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
^^^ This times a thousand. Anyone who's ever worked in the movie or publishing industries understands this completely.
The "red" patches on Starfleet uniforms are actually bright fuscia, not red. They only appear red when lit by the studio lighting instruments and photographed with the appropriate equipment.

Lindman's claim is based on colossal ignorance of one of the most well-known facts of photography, digital or chemical.
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Old 20th December 2013, 07:53 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Fishstick View Post
See also: anyone who's ever shot in RAW mode on dSLR and changed lighting mode from Sunny to Indoor
Or, in the olden days, photographing under tungsten light using daylight film.
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Old 20th December 2013, 08:16 AM   #533
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Sensor calibration and the mixing of filtered wavelengths also explains how the Chinese lander manages to take images with a warm cast while the rover takes images of the same terrain, only with a blue cast. Most post-landing cameras are simple uncalibrated cameras used only to verify landing etc. After the post-landing checkup, the calibrated (but more delicate) scientific data-gathering instruments are deployed, which is why the later, higher-resolution images show a more neutral gray including the subtle coloration seen on the Apollo 70mm color photographs.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:28 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The same accusation can be made for my Chang'e 3 claim, that I only cherry picked one special image that happened to look a bit brownish.

So here is another image from Chang'e 3: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ph...32968354_2.htm

From: http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/...235886501.html
That's not a photo of the moon, it's a photo of a tv screen showing a video of the moon. Multiple levels of color inaccuracy.

ETA: Sorry, not a tv screen, a projection screen: http://www.china.org.cn/images/50988.jpg

Last edited by phunk; 20th December 2013 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:46 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
That's not a photo of the moon, it's a photo of a tv screen showing a video of the moon. Multiple levels of color inaccuracy.

ETA: Sorry, not a tv screen, a projection screen: http://www.china.org.cn/images/50988.jpg
I would like to see higher quality images from China's moon program. Here is another example, but this too is rather fuzzy: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ph..._132968354.htm

I haven't found any sharper images yet.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:07 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I would like to see higher quality images from China's moon program. Here is another example, but this too is rather fuzzy: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ph..._132968354.htm

I haven't found any sharper images yet.
Do you agree that the photos you initially posted were not true color images?
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:10 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Do you agree that the photos you initially posted were not true color images?
I think it was in favor of my claim that the Apollo images have black-and-white lunar landscapes with foreground objects in color. But I admit that more images from the China mission are needed to make a case.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:24 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I think it was in favor of my claim that the Apollo images have black-and-white lunar landscapes with foreground objects in color. But I admit that more images from the China mission are needed to make a case.
Will you please answer my question?
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:26 AM   #539
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Here is another picture from the China moon mission: http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/imag.../17/436407.jpg

From: http://www.ibtimes.co.in/articles/53...-wu-weiren.htm
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:30 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Please answer my question. Do you admit that you erred in initially insinuating those initial images as true color images of the lunar surface?
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:35 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Please answer my question. Do you admit that you erred in initially insinuating those initial images as true color images of the lunar surface?
No, my claim still stands. And the few other pictures I have found from China mission also support my claim. The general trend is that the moon surface is brownish instead of black-and-white, at least at that location.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:35 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I think it was in favor of my claim that the Apollo images have black-and-white lunar landscapes with foreground objects in color.
No.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:39 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
No, my claim still stands.
Nonsense. You didn't answer why the Moon was simultaneously orange and blue. It was conclusively proven that they are not true color images of the Moon, but instead suffer from well-known and well-understood problems in photographic rendition of color, especially via happenstance chains of compound photography.

If you continue to hold to your original claim, your argument is pure delusion.

Quote:
The general trend is that the moon surface is brownish instead of black-and-white, at least at that location.
You wrongly believe that all photography will or should depict it as such.

Last edited by JayUtah; 20th December 2013 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:10 AM   #544
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"Chang'e 3 achieved lunar orbit on 6 December 2013[8] and landed on 14 December 2013,[9] becoming the first probe to soft-land on the Moon since Luna 24 in 1976.[10]" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_3

That's several days ago! Where are all the high quality images of the lunar landscape from Chang'e 3?
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:16 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
"Chang'e 3 achieved lunar orbit on 6 December 2013[8] and landed on 14 December 2013,[9] becoming the first probe to soft-land on the Moon since Luna 24 in 1976.[10]" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_3

That's several days ago! Where are all the high quality images of the lunar landscape from Chang'e 3?
Ask China.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:19 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
No, my claim still stands. And the few other pictures I have found from China mission also support my claim. The general trend is that the moon surface is brownish instead of black-and-white, at least at that location.
You don't have a claim why are you stating you do?
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:20 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
That's several days ago! Where are all the high quality images of the lunar landscape from Chang'e 3?
Why do you assume China will release them freely to the world? As you discovered, the initial photographs were photographed by journalists from the TV screens.

How is China's release schedule and policy related to any hoax claims you may be making?
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:20 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
Ask China.
Or the U.S. government has demanded that China should NOT release the images to the public!
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:22 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Or the U.S. government has demanded that China should NOT release the images to the public!
Or you might be imagining things - what do you think is more probable?
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:22 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
How is China's release schedule and policy related to any hoax claims you may be making?
See my previous post.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:23 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Or the U.S. government has demanded that China should NOT release the images to the public!
Because the U.S. government has that much control over China. Guess again.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:24 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Or you might be imagining things - what do you think is more probable?
Why wouldn't the Chinese government release high quality images from their moon program? That would be great PR publicity for them.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:24 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
See my previous post.
I did. It's ridiculous.

Also, can you explain why the U.S. has released other photos of a "brown" Moon, if it's so dead-set on allegedly hiding that?
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:24 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
See my previous post.
In other words, AL is saying, 'I'm making silly stuff up so don't ask me for specifics'. Just pay attention to me.

lol
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:25 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Why wouldn't the Chinese government release high quality images from their moon program? That would be great PR publicity for them.
Are you China? If not, then you don't get tell us all what China ought to do.

Your argument so far is simply that China isn't doing what you think they should do. Explain why your personal expectations matter.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:28 AM   #556
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Apollo "hoax" discussion Part II

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Or, in the olden days, photographing under tungsten light using daylight film.

Then there was the f-stop robbing daylight filter you could use under tungsten lights.

Best part of RAW mode in today's DSLR's is that I can finally get a reasonable color balance under fluorescent lighting. There are so many bulb variants, you'd go crazy trying to get it right, so out came the strobe with the diffuser in the old days.

Last edited by SUSpilot; 20th December 2013 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:30 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Or the U.S. government has demanded that China should NOT release the images to the public!

Like the Chinese are going to acquiesce to that?
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:31 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Are you China? If not, then you don't get tell us all what China ought to do.

Your argument so far is simply that China isn't doing what you think they should do. Explain why your personal expectations matter.
We will see. Maybe they will release a whole batch of images later after having gathered and compiled a careful selection.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:31 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Are you China? If not, then you don't get tell us all what China ought to do.

Your argument so far is simply that China isn't doing what you think they should do. Explain why your personal expectations matter.
Maybe some day the ebil gub'mints of the world will realize that the easiest way to not show images of what they are trying to hide on the Moon would be made much easier if they just didn't go there anymore.....
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:36 AM   #560
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Just to give you an idea how subjective this all can be, back in college when I worked in a camera store, we used a pretty high-end lab for a lot of work. The shop's owner took some pictures of his son's junior league hockey team for the parents. Of course, there wasn't a color reference or gray card in the photo (why would you?), and it was before Kodak had color reference bars on the edges of their negative film.

We noticed that as parents ordered prints off the original negative towards the spring and summer, the kids in the image got more and more tan as the year wore on...
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