[Merged] Bitcoin - Part 3 - Page 68

psionl0 · 9th September 2022, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

If that wasn't an option the price would have never gotten anywhere near where it has. People looking at a crypto ad on TV and acting on it aren't going to be the most savvy bunch and understanding the nuts and bolts well enough to use a private wallet is a barrier to entry that very few of these people are going to cross.

The biggest hole in applying a deregulated caveat emptor sensibility to the modern world is that the world is so complex that expecting every person to be savvy about everything in their lives is essentially a rejection of the division of labor. This is as good an example as any.

Assuming that the average bitcoin holder is too much of a noong to figure out how to set up a bitcoin wallet is a bit of a fancy.

gnome · 9th September 2022, 05:39 AM

A distinction here... "can't" isn't the same as "probably wouldn't".

Suddenly · 9th September 2022, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Assuming that the average bitcoin holder is too much of a noong to figure out how to set up a bitcoin wallet is a bit of a fancy.

It isn't so much they can't.

If it were clear from jump that this is something they would absolutely have to do; that they'd need a working understanding of the blockchain, keys, addresses, and so on in order to get in on this great opportunity they see advertised on the building where the Lakers play... well... the amount of new money coming in is going to shrink.

If they can just transfer money to that site and watch numbers grow and fall, then that's a different story.

Protecting the unwary and making it simple for people to invest is always going to increase market liquidity.

psionl0 · 9th September 2022, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

If it were clear from jump that this is something they would absolutely have to do; that they'd need a working understanding of the blockchain, keys, addresses, and so on in order to get in on this great opportunity they see advertised on the building where the Lakers play... well... the amount of new money coming in is going to shrink.

You don't need to know all that.

All you need is some wallet software. You click on "generate wallet" and presto. All you need to do is supply somebody the wallet id (not your personal key) and they can transfer bitcoins from their wallet directly to yours. It's easier than setting up a bank account.

Samson · 15th September 2022, 04:30 PM

Watching people talk about this bear market as something that will run its course and then it's off to the races again amuses me. They generalise from a lousy data set of exactly 2 bear markets.
As a perma bear I am very patient.

FatherLukeduke · 16th September 2022, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Assuming that the average bitcoin holder is too much of a noong to figure out how to set up a bitcoin wallet is a bit of a fancy.

Many coin speculators are not that savvy, which is why the majority of coins are "stored" on exchange wallets. I use the scare quotes as it looks like the exchanges keep much of their business off-chain and use private ledgers to save on transaction costs.

From speaking to a few people who have bought some crypto, the lack of savviness is only part of it. The main reason is that withdrawing money from the exchange to look after yourself is seen like taking cash out of the bank and sticking it under your bed. People are scared of the thought of looking after the seed phrase for the rest of their life (and after if they are concerned about inheritance).

Samson · 16th September 2022, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by FatherLukeduke

Many coin speculators are not that savvy, which is why the majority of coins are "stored" on exchange wallets. I use the scare quotes as it looks like the exchanges keep much of their business off-chain and use private ledgers to save on transaction costs.

From speaking to a few people who have bought some crypto, the lack of savviness is only part of it. The main reason is that withdrawing money from the exchange to look after yourself is seen like taking cash out of the bank and sticking it under your bed. People are scared of the thought of looking after the seed phrase for the rest of their life (and after if they are concerned about inheritance).

Not sure exactly your point, but take Winkelvoss twins. They claim secure storage neither can recover independently.
Imagine wives and kids going forward. If they meet untimely demise.

Suddenly · 16th September 2022, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

Watching people talk about this bear market as something that will run its course and then it's off to the races again amuses me. They generalise from a lousy data set of exactly 2 bear markets.
As a perma bear I am very patient.

I figure there will be a broad based pump and dump if it gets too low. Enough money for a media blitz, get influencers to hype bitcoin's rebound, etc.

We'll know it's over when the Lakers are no longer playing at Crypto.com arena.

Dr.Sid · 16th September 2022, 05:35 AM

So ETH move to proof of stake was quite uneventful. Miners are sad, of course. But so far investors didn't all jump to ETH nor did they run away.

FatherLukeduke · 16th September 2022, 06:10 AM

FT piece on the ETH merge

"Has Web3 just had its Netscape moment? The launch of the first web browser in 1994 was a turning point for the internet. Now, if crypto enthusiasts are to be believed, the switch by the Ethereum blockchain to a new system for validating transactions — a move known as “the merge” — is an equally historic moment for what has become known as Web3.

Moving away from its previous, energy-intensive validation mechanism puts Ethereum on a more sustainable long-term path. For the network that has become the main platform for blockchain-based applications like non-fungible tokens and decentralised finance, that is certainly significant.

But nine years after Ethereum was launched, there is still a long way to go. Here are five issues that will help to determine whether or not the merge will one day be seen as a significant moment in the history of the internet.

First, the new validation mechanism, known as proof of stake, doesn’t on its own do anything to solve one of Ethereum’s biggest problems: that it can handle only 15 transactions per second (tps), a bottleneck that has led to very high transaction fees.

The merge at least clears the way for the network’s next big step, scheduled for the second half of next year. Called “sharding”, this would involve splitting the Ethereum database into 64 fragments. Since every computer on the network would no longer need to keep a record of every transaction, it would greatly increase overall capacity and speed.

There are still big, unresolved technical questions about how this will work. Also, sharding will not be a complete solution. A 64-fold increase would lift the network’s capacity to nearly 1,000 tps — not far off the 1,700 tps capacity of the Visa network. But the promise of Web3 is to use blockchain technology to mediate every online interaction, meaning far greater capacity will be needed.

Second, the merge brings with it a whole set of unknown risks. Essentially, a market currently worth $200bn is being shifted on to entirely new foundations, with new mechanisms and new roles for market intermediaries that haven’t been tested in real-world conditions.

Rather than the risks, many market participants are likely to be more focused on the potential for higher returns. Under the new proof of stake system, holders lodge their ether as collateral to validate transactions in return for “staking rewards”. That has turned a previously unproductive asset into one that now offers a yield — something that many investors are likely to find attractive. But at this stage, it’s anyone’s guess whether the yield will compensate for the new risks — not to mention the huge volatility in the cryptocurrency itself.

Third, the build-out of a broader layer of market infrastructure on top of Ethereum is still in its infancy. So-called layer-two networks, like Polygon and Optimism, act as “roll ups”, batching up many individual transactions themselves and lodging only a single entry back on the Ethereum blockchain. Along with sharding, Ethereum’s backers claim this might lift overall capacity to 100,000 tps.

The companies that operate on top of Ethereum in this way could themselves become powerful new intermediaries in the blockchain world — something that runs counter to the ideal of decentralisation on which crypto is founded.

This leads to the fourth point: as the broader Ethereum system evolves, its backers will have to ditch some of the crypto world’s ideological baggage in favour of a greater pragmatism. The challenge will be to work out which ideals can be compromised in the interests of a more workable system.

The emergence of influential new intermediaries could also give governments a new point of leverage over the system. For instance, if large numbers of holders turn to crypto exchanges for help with staking, then those exchanges would play an important role in validating transactions. That could expose them to political pressure to block certain transactions in pursuit of financial sanctions.

Fifth, and finally, improving the underlying blockchain infrastructure will do nothing to solve Web3’s biggest challenge: demonstrating why this technology is needed in the first place.

The optimists claim that, with the merge completed and work well under way on solving Ethereum’s scaling challenges, effort will shift increasingly to building the consumer-friendly experiences needed to draw large numbers of users. That means devising things like crypto wallets and marketplaces for digital assets that are easier for ordinary mortals to use. It also means coming up with entirely new applications that could not have worked as well on the existing web.

The Ethereum merge doesn’t provide any clues about what those uses might be. But, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, it at least shows that Web3 has got to the end of the beginning."

psionl0 · 16th September 2022, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by FatherLukeduke

Many coin speculators are not that savvy, which is why the majority of coins are "stored" on exchange wallets. I use the scare quotes as it looks like the exchanges keep much of their business off-chain and use private ledgers to save on transaction costs.

From speaking to a few people who have bought some crypto, the lack of savviness is only part of it. The main reason is that withdrawing money from the exchange to look after yourself is seen like taking cash out of the bank and sticking it under your bed. People are scared of the thought of looking after the seed phrase for the rest of their life (and after if they are concerned about inheritance).

Cool story bro. But I would like to see a study that is more than "speaking to a few people" before I concluded that the average crypto holder prefers an exchange to a crypto wallet. I'm pretty sure that most bitcoin hodlers don't leave their bitcoins in an exchange indefinitely.

psionl0 · 16th September 2022, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

I ~~figure~~ imagine there will be a broad based pump and dump if it gets too low.

ftfy.

You have no data to show that this is what happened in the past. Somebody on the internet saying "The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man" isn't proof of anything.

arthwollipot · 18th September 2022, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

So ETH move to proof of stake was quite uneventful. Miners are sad, of course. But so far investors didn't all jump to ETH nor did they run away.

The value of my ETH portfolio hasn't changed substantially.

Samson · 18th September 2022, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

The value of my ETH portfolio hasn't changed substantially.

The value of ETH has dropped dramatically, why not your portfolio?

arthwollipot · 18th September 2022, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Samson

The value of ETH has dropped dramatically, why not your portfolio?

Probably because my portfolio contains both ETH and BTC, I guess? I don't know. I just open Coinbase and see how much value I have.

When I say that it hasn't changed substantially, it's down about $10 from where it was last week which was when I last checked.

psionl0 · 18th September 2022, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Samson

The value of ETH has dropped dramatically, why not your portfolio?

The value of ETH has dropped from 0.08 BTC to 0.07 BTC since switching to POS which is still about average for the last 15 months.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Probably because my portfolio contains both ETH and BTC, I guess? I don't know.

BTC is hovering around the $20K mark and has done so for the last 3 months which probably explains why your porfolio is relatively steady.

Incidentally, do you trust coinbase to hold your coins (without mishap) indefinitely?

arthwollipot · 18th September 2022, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Incidentally, do you trust coinbase to hold your coins (without mishap) indefinitely?

Nah, but if I lose what was originally only a hundred bucks (and is now forty) I won't be too upset.

Samson · 20th September 2022, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Nah, but if I lose what was originally only a hundred bucks (and is now forty) I won't be too upset.

So not a true whale then.

a_unique_person · 20th September 2022, 05:36 AM

A hundred bucks? More like a true Scotsman.

Samson · 24th September 2022, 10:38 PM

This could be the most interesting week for crypto.
Wall Street will do 20% more declines, and correlation is strong with cryptos.
Will Michael Saylor buy more bitcoin on the back foot?
I doubt the new CEO of Micro strategies will see the far sighted wisdom in this.

Gord_in_Toronto · 25th September 2022, 08:45 AM

To quote the Kingston Trio's version of the Pete Seeger's song, "Oh, when will they ever learn?"

Helium evaporates.

Helium was touted as the best real-world use case of Web3 technology. But as it struggles to generate revenue, a Forbes investigation found that executives and their friends quietly hoarded the majority of wealth at the project's inception.

Quote:

Backed by investors Andreessen Horowitz and Tiger Global, the $1.2 billion Web3 company said it was building the “People’s Network,” a global wireless internet connection for objects like parking meters and dog collars. All Davis had to do was spend $500 on a machine that looked like a wifi router, plug it into her wall and receive Helium’s cryptocurrency in return — a recurring passive stream of income. One Helium investor claimed that owners could recoup their purchase in a few weeks.

However,

Quote:

Davis is one of thousands of people who bought into Helium's promise, together spending an approximate $500 million on hotspots they believed would pay steady dividends. But so far, citizens of the People’s Network have seen vanishingly small crypto rewards. After waiting more than six months for her $500 hotspot to arrive at her home in Houston, Davis has mined a single token in three months — about $5. “I could have used my money elsewhere and actually gained some income,” the 52-year-old real estate agent told Forbes, “not lose it after I pay my electricity bill.”

and,

Quote:

But Helium has made a handful of people disproportionately rich: its executives and their friends.

So,

Quote:

A review of hundreds of leaked internal documents, transaction data and interviews with five former Helium employees suggest that as Helium insiders touted the democratized spirit of their “People’s Network,” they quietly amassed a majority of the tokens earned at the project’s start, hoarding much of the wealth generated in its earliest and most lucrative days.

Ah ha,

Quote:

“This is a recurring pattern in the crypto economy,” says Lee Reiners, Policy Director at the Duke Financial Economics Center, who teaches cryptocurrency law at Duke Law. “This thing was set up to enrich the founders and early supporters at the expense of everyday people who bought hotspots thinking they were going to bring value."

I find it difficult to know if these thing really just start out a scams or evolve into them because, in this case anyway, the idea does not seem too unreasonable.

The Wild West was never this wild but PT usually got it right.

psionl0 · 25th September 2022, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

To quote the Kingston Trio's version of the Pete Seeger's song, "Oh, when will they ever learn?"

Helium evaporates.

Helium was touted as the best real-world use case of Web3 technology. But as it struggles to generate revenue, a Forbes investigation found that executives and their friends quietly hoarded the majority of wealth at the project's inception.I find it difficult to know if these thing really just start out a scams or evolve into them because, in this case anyway, the idea does not seem too unreasonable.

The Wild West was never this wild but PT usually got it right.

It should be pointed out that bitcoin is unique in the crypto world because it never had an ICO. Every coin was initially mined and not sold/given away by a developer.

It is for this reason that alt-coins are usually considered to be securities but bitcoin isn't.

Suddenly · 26th September 2022, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It should be pointed out that bitcoin is unique in the crypto world because it never had an ICO. Every coin was initially mined and not sold/given away by a developer.

It is for this reason that alt-coins are usually considered to be securities but bitcoin isn't.

Not a fan of bitcoin but will acknowledge it often wrongfully bears the stench of the various poopcoin and ICO shenanigans that come up every time interest in crypto peaks.

Dr.Sid · 26th September 2022, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Not a fan of bitcoin but will acknowledge it often wrongfully bears the stench of the various poopcoin and ICO shenanigans that come up every time interest in crypto peaks.

Or shenanigans not actually related to crypto at all. Like offering investment to crypto and then simply running with the money.

psionl0 · 26th September 2022, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Not a fan of bitcoin but will acknowledge it often wrongfully bears the stench of the various poopcoin and ICO shenanigans that come up every time interest in crypto peaks.

You don't have to be a fan to want to sort out the facts from the BS. OTOH a lot of unfans don't care whether their arguments are factual or BS as long as they are negative.

Samson · 27th September 2022, 01:33 PM

Bitcoin is now powered 62% by fossil fuels.
This could provide power for 28 million Argentinians.
This is not exactly the fault of the designer but in order to fulfill Michael Saylor's evil intent it is a corollary that it seriously destroys the climate.
That is why I would love to see cryptos disappear.
The world will keep turning.
One crypto to facilitate the lives of the unbanked without consuming fossil fuels would suffice.

jeremyp · 28th September 2022, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You don't have to be a fan to want to sort out the facts from the BS. OTOH a lot of unfans don't care whether their arguments are factual or BS as long as they are negative.

Conversely, many of the crypto bros don't care that they don't have any positive arguments and will attack sceptics for pointing that out.

psionl0 · 28th September 2022, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Conversely, many of the crypto bros don't care that they don't have any positive arguments and will attack sceptics for pointing that out.

I don't know who you are referring to but I don't have any vested interest in cryptos. I only "attack" sceptics who post BS.

porch · 28th September 2022, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I don't know who you are referring to but I don't have any vested interest in cryptos. I only "attack" sceptics who post BS.

Are you saying that you currently hold zero cryptocurrency?

lomiller · 28th September 2022, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by porch

Are you saying that you currently hold zero cryptocurrency?

psionl0's affinity for bitcoin probably come from his buying into banking system conspiracy theories that posit banks create their own money out if thin air.

psionl0 · 28th September 2022, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by porch

Are you saying that you currently hold zero cryptocurrency?

I don't hold enough to make a difference in my life. Of course, had I been a true believer in the past, I would be a bitcoin millionaire today and not have had to stake my life savings to achieve this outcome. C'est la vie.

psionl0 · 28th September 2022, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

psionl0's affinity for bitcoin probably come from his buying into banking system conspiracy theories that posit banks create their own money out if thin air.

Sure, banks don't create deposits.

Dr.Sid · 28th September 2022, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I don't hold enough to make a difference in my life. Of course, had I been a true believer in the past, I would be a bitcoin millionaire today and not have had to stake my life savings to achieve this outcome. C'est la vie.

That's a good point. True bitcoin believers are silly .. but damn are they rich.

Gord_in_Toronto · 29th September 2022, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

That's a good point. True bitcoin believers are silly .. but damn are they rich.

The ones that talk about it are. The losers just slink away.

psionl0 · 29th September 2022, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

The ones that talk about it are. The losers just slink away.

Who needs facts when you can just make them up?

wareyin · 30th September 2022, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Who needs facts when you can just make them up?

Wait, are you trying to imply that nobody has lost money with bitcoin? Or that the people who have are just as vocal about their losses as the winners are about their gains?

psionl0 · 30th September 2022, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Wait, are you trying to imply that nobody has lost money with bitcoin? Or that the people who have are just as vocal about their losses as the winners are about their gains?

Of course not. Speculation always produces winners and losers. But we don't know how many of each nor the sums of money involved. And we have absolutely no information whatsoever about how many people are publicizing their gains or losses.

But still, this was negative about bitcoin so it passes muster in this thread.

wareyin · 3rd October 2022, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Of course not. Speculation always produces winners and losers. But we don't know how many of each nor the sums of money involved. And we have absolutely no information whatsoever about how many people are publicizing their gains or losses.

But still, this was negative about bitcoin so it passes muster in this thread.

Given that it's human nature to not publicize a loss, do you really think we need evidence that we don't hear from the Bitcoin losers as much as we do from the Bitcoin winners? And from that basic knowledge of how humans act, we would expect to be getting a skewed perspective toward Bitcoin with people publicizing their gains while those who lost kept silent?

It just seems a bit odd that you'd need evidence for such a commonplace occurrence.

Samson · 3rd October 2022, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Given that it's human nature to not publicize a loss, do you really think we need evidence that we don't hear from the Bitcoin losers as much as we do from the Bitcoin winners? And from that basic knowledge of how humans act, we would expect to be getting a skewed perspective toward Bitcoin with people publicizing their gains while those who lost kept silent?

It just seems a bit odd that you'd need evidence for such a commonplace occurrence.

It is unfortunate that all bitcoin purchased in the last 22 months is showing a loss, this is most of the trillion that is alleged to be market capitalization across the crypto sector. As Warren Buffet says, I would rather own farms, because they produce something meaningful like food to keep people's ribs apart.

lomiller · 3rd October 2022, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

That's a good point. True bitcoin believers are silly .. but damn are they rich.

Only if they sell their bitcoin, which a true believer would never do...

9th September 2022, 12:10 AM	#2681
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by Suddenly If that wasn't an option the price would have never gotten anywhere near where it has. People looking at a crypto ad on TV and acting on it aren't going to be the most savvy bunch and understanding the nuts and bolts well enough to use a private wallet is a barrier to entry that very few of these people are going to cross. The biggest hole in applying a deregulated caveat emptor sensibility to the modern world is that the world is so complex that expecting every person to be savvy about everything in their lives is essentially a rejection of the division of labor. This is as good an example as any. Assuming that the average bitcoin holder is too much of a noong to figure out how to set up a bitcoin wallet is a bit of a fancy.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

9th September 2022, 05:39 AM	#2682
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,487	A distinction here... "can't" isn't the same as "probably wouldn't".
	__________________

9th September 2022, 08:34 PM	#2684
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by Suddenly If it were clear from jump that this is something they would absolutely have to do; that they'd need a working understanding of the blockchain, keys, addresses, and so on in order to get in on this great opportunity they see advertised on the building where the Lakers play... well... the amount of new money coming in is going to shrink. You don't need to know all that. All you need is some wallet software. You click on "generate wallet" and presto. All you need to do is supply somebody the wallet id (not your personal key) and they can transfer bitcoins from their wallet directly to yours. It's easier than setting up a bank account.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th September 2022, 02:29 AM	#2686
FatherLukeduke Thinker Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 130	Originally Posted by psionl0 Assuming that the average bitcoin holder is too much of a noong to figure out how to set up a bitcoin wallet is a bit of a fancy. Many coin speculators are not that savvy, which is why the majority of coins are "stored" on exchange wallets. I use the scare quotes as it looks like the exchanges keep much of their business off-chain and use private ledgers to save on transaction costs. From speaking to a few people who have bought some crypto, the lack of savviness is only part of it. The main reason is that withdrawing money from the exchange to look after yourself is seen like taking cash out of the bank and sticking it under your bed. People are scared of the thought of looking after the seed phrase for the rest of their life (and after if they are concerned about inheritance).
FatherLukeduke Thinker Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 130

16th September 2022, 06:10 AM	#2690
FatherLukeduke Thinker Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 130	FT piece on the ETH merge "Has Web3 just had its Netscape moment? The launch of the first web browser in 1994 was a turning point for the internet. Now, if crypto enthusiasts are to be believed, the switch by the Ethereum blockchain to a new system for validating transactions — a move known as “the merge” — is an equally historic moment for what has become known as Web3. Moving away from its previous, energy-intensive validation mechanism puts Ethereum on a more sustainable long-term path. For the network that has become the main platform for blockchain-based applications like non-fungible tokens and decentralised finance, that is certainly significant. But nine years after Ethereum was launched, there is still a long way to go. Here are five issues that will help to determine whether or not the merge will one day be seen as a significant moment in the history of the internet. First, the new validation mechanism, known as proof of stake, doesn’t on its own do anything to solve one of Ethereum’s biggest problems: that it can handle only 15 transactions per second (tps), a bottleneck that has led to very high transaction fees. The merge at least clears the way for the network’s next big step, scheduled for the second half of next year. Called “sharding”, this would involve splitting the Ethereum database into 64 fragments. Since every computer on the network would no longer need to keep a record of every transaction, it would greatly increase overall capacity and speed. There are still big, unresolved technical questions about how this will work. Also, sharding will not be a complete solution. A 64-fold increase would lift the network’s capacity to nearly 1,000 tps — not far off the 1,700 tps capacity of the Visa network. But the promise of Web3 is to use blockchain technology to mediate every online interaction, meaning far greater capacity will be needed. Second, the merge brings with it a whole set of unknown risks. Essentially, a market currently worth $200bn is being shifted on to entirely new foundations, with new mechanisms and new roles for market intermediaries that haven’t been tested in real-world conditions. Rather than the risks, many market participants are likely to be more focused on the potential for higher returns. Under the new proof of stake system, holders lodge their ether as collateral to validate transactions in return for “staking rewards”. That has turned a previously unproductive asset into one that now offers a yield — something that many investors are likely to find attractive. But at this stage, it’s anyone’s guess whether the yield will compensate for the new risks — not to mention the huge volatility in the cryptocurrency itself. Third, the build-out of a broader layer of market infrastructure on top of Ethereum is still in its infancy. So-called layer-two networks, like Polygon and Optimism, act as “roll ups”, batching up many individual transactions themselves and lodging only a single entry back on the Ethereum blockchain. Along with sharding, Ethereum’s backers claim this might lift overall capacity to 100,000 tps. The companies that operate on top of Ethereum in this way could themselves become powerful new intermediaries in the blockchain world — something that runs counter to the ideal of decentralisation on which crypto is founded. This leads to the fourth point: as the broader Ethereum system evolves, its backers will have to ditch some of the crypto world’s ideological baggage in favour of a greater pragmatism. The challenge will be to work out which ideals can be compromised in the interests of a more workable system. The emergence of influential new intermediaries could also give governments a new point of leverage over the system. For instance, if large numbers of holders turn to crypto exchanges for help with staking, then those exchanges would play an important role in validating transactions. That could expose them to political pressure to block certain transactions in pursuit of financial sanctions. Fifth, and finally, improving the underlying blockchain infrastructure will do nothing to solve Web3’s biggest challenge: demonstrating why this technology is needed in the first place. The optimists claim that, with the merge completed and work well under way on solving Ethereum’s scaling challenges, effort will shift increasingly to building the consumer-friendly experiences needed to draw large numbers of users. That means devising things like crypto wallets and marketplaces for digital assets that are easier for ordinary mortals to use. It also means coming up with entirely new applications that could not have worked as well on the existing web. The Ethereum merge doesn’t provide any clues about what those uses might be. But, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, it at least shows that Web3 has got to the end of the beginning."
FatherLukeduke Thinker Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 130

9th September 2022, 07:46 AM	#2683
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by psionl0 Assuming that the average bitcoin holder is too much of a noong to figure out how to set up a bitcoin wallet is a bit of a fancy. It isn't so much they can't. If it were clear from jump that this is something they would absolutely have to do; that they'd need a working understanding of the blockchain, keys, addresses, and so on in order to get in on this great opportunity they see advertised on the building where the Lakers play... well... the amount of new money coming in is going to shrink. If they can just transfer money to that site and watch numbers grow and fall, then that's a different story. Protecting the unwary and making it simple for people to invest is always going to increase market liquidity.

15th September 2022, 04:30 PM	#2685
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	Watching people talk about this bear market as something that will run its course and then it's off to the races again amuses me. They generalise from a lousy data set of exactly 2 bear markets. As a perma bear I am very patient.

16th September 2022, 03:19 AM	#2687
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	Originally Posted by FatherLukeduke Many coin speculators are not that savvy, which is why the majority of coins are "stored" on exchange wallets. I use the scare quotes as it looks like the exchanges keep much of their business off-chain and use private ledgers to save on transaction costs. From speaking to a few people who have bought some crypto, the lack of savviness is only part of it. The main reason is that withdrawing money from the exchange to look after yourself is seen like taking cash out of the bank and sticking it under your bed. People are scared of the thought of looking after the seed phrase for the rest of their life (and after if they are concerned about inheritance). Not sure exactly your point, but take Winkelvoss twins. They claim secure storage neither can recover independently. Imagine wives and kids going forward. If they meet untimely demise.

16th September 2022, 05:08 AM	#2688
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by Samson Watching people talk about this bear market as something that will run its course and then it's off to the races again amuses me. They generalise from a lousy data set of exactly 2 bear markets. As a perma bear I am very patient. I figure there will be a broad based pump and dump if it gets too low. Enough money for a media blitz, get influencers to hype bitcoin's rebound, etc. We'll know it's over when the Lakers are no longer playing at Crypto.com arena.

16th September 2022, 05:35 AM	#2689
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,993	So ETH move to proof of stake was quite uneventful. Miners are sad, of course. But so far investors didn't all jump to ETH nor did they run away.

16th September 2022, 06:21 PM	#2691
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by FatherLukeduke Many coin speculators are not that savvy, which is why the majority of coins are "stored" on exchange wallets. I use the scare quotes as it looks like the exchanges keep much of their business off-chain and use private ledgers to save on transaction costs. From speaking to a few people who have bought some crypto, the lack of savviness is only part of it. The main reason is that withdrawing money from the exchange to look after yourself is seen like taking cash out of the bank and sticking it under your bed. People are scared of the thought of looking after the seed phrase for the rest of their life (and after if they are concerned about inheritance). Cool story bro. But I would like to see a study that is more than "speaking to a few people" before I concluded that the average crypto holder prefers an exchange to a crypto wallet. I'm pretty sure that most bitcoin hodlers don't leave their bitcoins in an exchange indefinitely.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th September 2022, 06:25 PM	#2692
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by Suddenly I ~~figure~~ imagine there will be a broad based pump and dump if it gets too low. ftfy. You have no data to show that this is what happened in the past. Somebody on the internet saying "The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man" isn't proof of anything.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

18th September 2022, 09:11 PM	#2693
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 79,901	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid So ETH move to proof of stake was quite uneventful. Miners are sad, of course. But so far investors didn't all jump to ETH nor did they run away. The value of my ETH portfolio hasn't changed substantially.
	__________________ The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

18th September 2022, 09:55 PM	#2694
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	Originally Posted by arthwollipot The value of my ETH portfolio hasn't changed substantially. The value of ETH has dropped dramatically, why not your portfolio?

18th September 2022, 10:36 PM	#2695
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 79,901	Originally Posted by Samson The value of ETH has dropped dramatically, why not your portfolio? Probably because my portfolio contains both ETH and BTC, I guess? I don't know. I just open Coinbase and see how much value I have. When I say that it hasn't changed substantially, it's down about $10 from where it was last week which was when I last checked.
	__________________ The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

18th September 2022, 10:52 PM	#2696
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by Samson The value of ETH has dropped dramatically, why not your portfolio? The value of ETH has dropped from 0.08 BTC to 0.07 BTC since switching to POS which is still about average for the last 15 months. Originally Posted by arthwollipot Probably because my portfolio contains both ETH and BTC, I guess? I don't know. BTC is hovering around the $20K mark and has done so for the last 3 months which probably explains why your porfolio is relatively steady. Incidentally, do you trust coinbase to hold your coins (without mishap) indefinitely?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

18th September 2022, 11:19 PM	#2697
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 79,901	Originally Posted by psionl0 Incidentally, do you trust coinbase to hold your coins (without mishap) indefinitely? Nah, but if I lose what was originally only a hundred bucks (and is now forty) I won't be too upset.
	__________________ The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

20th September 2022, 03:11 AM	#2698
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Nah, but if I lose what was originally only a hundred bucks (and is now forty) I won't be too upset. So not a true whale then.

20th September 2022, 05:36 AM	#2699
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,911	A hundred bucks? More like a true Scotsman.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

24th September 2022, 10:38 PM	#2700
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	This could be the most interesting week for crypto. Wall Street will do 20% more declines, and correlation is strong with cryptos. Will Michael Saylor buy more bitcoin on the back foot? I doubt the new CEO of Micro strategies will see the far sighted wisdom in this.
	Last edited by Samson; 24th September 2022 at 10:39 PM.

25th September 2022, 08:45 AM	#2701
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,345	To quote the Kingston Trio's version of the Pete Seeger's song, "Oh, when will they ever learn?" Helium evaporates. Helium was touted as the best real-world use case of Web3 technology. But as it struggles to generate revenue, a Forbes investigation found that executives and their friends quietly hoarded the majority of wealth at the project's inception. Quote: Backed by investors Andreessen Horowitz and Tiger Global, the $1.2 billion Web3 company said it was building the “People’s Network,” a global wireless internet connection for objects like parking meters and dog collars. All Davis had to do was spend $500 on a machine that looked like a wifi router, plug it into her wall and receive Helium’s cryptocurrency in return — a recurring passive stream of income. One Helium investor claimed that owners could recoup their purchase in a few weeks. However, Quote: Davis is one of thousands of people who bought into Helium's promise, together spending an approximate $500 million on hotspots they believed would pay steady dividends. But so far, citizens of the People’s Network have seen vanishingly small crypto rewards. After waiting more than six months for her $500 hotspot to arrive at her home in Houston, Davis has mined a single token in three months — about $5. “I could have used my money elsewhere and actually gained some income,” the 52-year-old real estate agent told Forbes, “not lose it after I pay my electricity bill.” and, Quote: But Helium has made a handful of people disproportionately rich: its executives and their friends. So, Quote: A review of hundreds of leaked internal documents, transaction data and interviews with five former Helium employees suggest that as Helium insiders touted the democratized spirit of their “People’s Network,” they quietly amassed a majority of the tokens earned at the project’s start, hoarding much of the wealth generated in its earliest and most lucrative days. Ah ha, Quote: “This is a recurring pattern in the crypto economy,” says Lee Reiners, Policy Director at the Duke Financial Economics Center, who teaches cryptocurrency law at Duke Law. “This thing was set up to enrich the founders and early supporters at the expense of everyday people who bought hotspots thinking they were going to bring value." I find it difficult to know if these thing really just start out a scams or evolve into them because, in this case anyway, the idea does not seem too unreasonable. The Wild West was never this wild but PT usually got it right.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

25th September 2022, 05:06 PM	#2702
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto To quote the Kingston Trio's version of the Pete Seeger's song, "Oh, when will they ever learn?" Helium evaporates. Helium was touted as the best real-world use case of Web3 technology. But as it struggles to generate revenue, a Forbes investigation found that executives and their friends quietly hoarded the majority of wealth at the project's inception.I find it difficult to know if these thing really just start out a scams or evolve into them because, in this case anyway, the idea does not seem too unreasonable. The Wild West was never this wild but PT usually got it right. It should be pointed out that bitcoin is unique in the crypto world because it never had an ICO. Every coin was initially mined and not sold/given away by a developer. It is for this reason that alt-coins are usually considered to be securities but bitcoin isn't.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th September 2022, 09:05 AM	#2703
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by psionl0 It should be pointed out that bitcoin is unique in the crypto world because it never had an ICO. Every coin was initially mined and not sold/given away by a developer. It is for this reason that alt-coins are usually considered to be securities but bitcoin isn't. Not a fan of bitcoin but will acknowledge it often wrongfully bears the stench of the various poopcoin and ICO shenanigans that come up every time interest in crypto peaks.

26th September 2022, 10:25 AM	#2704
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,993	Originally Posted by Suddenly Not a fan of bitcoin but will acknowledge it often wrongfully bears the stench of the various poopcoin and ICO shenanigans that come up every time interest in crypto peaks. Or shenanigans not actually related to crypto at all. Like offering investment to crypto and then simply running with the money.

26th September 2022, 06:40 PM	#2705
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by Suddenly Not a fan of bitcoin but will acknowledge it often wrongfully bears the stench of the various poopcoin and ICO shenanigans that come up every time interest in crypto peaks. You don't have to be a fan to want to sort out the facts from the BS. OTOH a lot of unfans don't care whether their arguments are factual or BS as long as they are negative.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

27th September 2022, 01:33 PM	#2706
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	Bitcoin is now powered 62% by fossil fuels. This could provide power for 28 million Argentinians. This is not exactly the fault of the designer but in order to fulfill Michael Saylor's evil intent it is a corollary that it seriously destroys the climate. That is why I would love to see cryptos disappear. The world will keep turning. One crypto to facilitate the lives of the unbanked without consuming fossil fuels would suffice.

28th September 2022, 02:16 AM	#2707
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,278	Originally Posted by psionl0 You don't have to be a fan to want to sort out the facts from the BS. OTOH a lot of unfans don't care whether their arguments are factual or BS as long as they are negative. Conversely, many of the crypto bros don't care that they don't have any positive arguments and will attack sceptics for pointing that out.

28th September 2022, 02:24 AM	#2708
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by jeremyp Conversely, many of the crypto bros don't care that they don't have any positive arguments and will attack sceptics for pointing that out. I don't know who you are referring to but I don't have any vested interest in cryptos. I only "attack" sceptics who post BS.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th September 2022, 02:12 PM	#2709
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 719	Originally Posted by psionl0 I don't know who you are referring to but I don't have any vested interest in cryptos. I only "attack" sceptics who post BS. Are you saying that you currently hold zero cryptocurrency?
porch Muse Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 719

28th September 2022, 02:44 PM	#2710
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,671	Originally Posted by porch Are you saying that you currently hold zero cryptocurrency? psionl0's affinity for bitcoin probably come from his buying into banking system conspiracy theories that posit banks create their own money out if thin air.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

28th September 2022, 06:30 PM	#2711
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by porch Are you saying that you currently hold zero cryptocurrency? I don't hold enough to make a difference in my life. Of course, had I been a true believer in the past, I would be a bitcoin millionaire today and not have had to stake my life savings to achieve this outcome. C'est la vie.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th September 2022, 06:59 PM	#2712
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by lomiller psionl0's affinity for bitcoin probably come from his buying into banking system conspiracy theories that posit banks create their own money out if thin air. Sure, banks don't create deposits.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th September 2022, 08:00 PM	#2713
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,993	Originally Posted by psionl0 I don't hold enough to make a difference in my life. Of course, had I been a true believer in the past, I would be a bitcoin millionaire today and not have had to stake my life savings to achieve this outcome. C'est la vie. That's a good point. True bitcoin believers are silly .. but damn are they rich.

29th September 2022, 09:10 AM	#2714
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,345	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid That's a good point. True bitcoin believers are silly .. but damn are they rich. The ones that talk about it are. The losers just slink away.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

29th September 2022, 10:57 PM	#2715
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,869	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto The ones that talk about it are. The losers just slink away. Who needs facts when you can just make them up?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975