[Merged] Bitcoin - Part 3 - Page 73

jeremyp · 22nd November 2022, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This article was about a crypto exchange and not about cryptos themselves. Your entire narrative is based on a lie.

What do you think it is about cryptocurrency that has caused all of these crypto exchanges to be set up and then go bankrupt, seemingly with fraud or embezzlement being involved quite often.

Chanakya · 22nd November 2022, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Sure it does. Crypto brings out the crazy. You know it doesn't make sense, but the thought of all that money you could be making overrides common sense.

Some people say Crypto is just gambling. They are wrong - it's much worse. Crypto promises that everyone will be a winner, which other forms of gambling don't. And crypto pretends to be a better alternative to fiat currency - as if it has a firm financial basis and is morally superior - when it is neither. Bitcoin is fatally flawed and very immoral, but the thought of all that 'free' money stops people from looking too closely at it.

I feel sorry for Sam Bankman-Fried and his friends. I think they bought into the hype and thought that if they were smart enough then everyone could be winner. The FTX crash is proof that everyone isn't (even those who 'hold' forever). It won't be the last. Most have convinced themselves that FTX was a one-off anomaly, when in fact such events are an inherent part of the system. One day it may get to the point where (almost) everyone is loser and it collapses completely - while a few sad hodlers still insist that so long as crypto exists they will eventually win.

You're saying greed gone out of control, ended up clouding the man's judgment? (His financial judgment, that is --- moral judgment clearly ran right out the door long back for the likes of him.) Possible I suppose; in fact quite likely just that, absent some more nuanced explanation (or convoluted rationalization?).

Incidentally, came across this thread started in Trials, that I've just now subscribed to (but not commented in, having nothing worthwhile to add), that has a very detailed OP, and will no doubt explore the Bankman-Fried thing more fully.

Originally Posted by psionl0

This article was about a crypto exchange and not about cryptos themselves. Your entire narrative is based on a lie.

Actually that sounds like a fair point, the highlighted I mean. Crookedness at an exchange does not necessarily translate to crookedness or weakness in the assets it deals/dealt in.

Although I have to say, I suspect cryptos are inherently more susceptible to this kind of gaming than stocks say --- in practice at any rate, given the maturity of stock markets, even if not necessarily in theory (although perhaps even intrinsically and not just de facto). I readily admit, though, that I really don't know enough either about the mechanics of crypto as far as this aspect, nor about how crypto exhanges have fared since these things got going a decade or so ago, to really express more than just a vague unsupported hunch/guess/opinion on this, that I can't really defend if called on to.

As for the rest of the post, apart from the highlighted I mean, I find it curious how you tend to attack those that find fault with this sainted asset class. Even if you're right, and he's mistaken, why must that mean that he's lying, as opposed to merely mistaken?

psionl0 · 22nd November 2022, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

As for the rest of the post, apart from the highlighted I mean, I find it curious how you tend to attack those that find fault with this sainted asset class. Even if you're right, and he's mistaken, why must that mean that he's lying, as opposed to merely mistaken?

The same faulty arguments have been repeated over and over again for over a decade. The posters are just pretending that I haven't refuted them.

Pointing out problems with unregulated exchanges as if they are problems with the crypto itself (repeatedly) is just part of the dishonesty that crops up all the time in this thread.

jeremyp · 23rd November 2022, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The same faulty arguments have been repeated over and over again for over a decade. The posters are just pretending that I haven't refuted them.

Pointing out problems with unregulated exchanges as if they are problems with the crypto itself (repeatedly) is just part of the dishonesty that crops up all the time in this thread.

The problem is that the crypto bros keep telling us that the unregulated nature of crypto currencies is an advantage. These fraudulent exchanges keep popping up because of the nature of the assets they deal in.

psionl0 · 23rd November 2022, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

The problem is that the crypto bros keep telling us that the unregulated nature of crypto currencies is an advantage. These fraudulent exchanges keep popping up because of the nature of the assets they deal in.

This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters.

wareyin · 23rd November 2022, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters.

Yeah, it's not like they're both integral to each other and they each would disappear if not for the other....oh, wait a minute, it is, isn't it.

psionl0 · 23rd November 2022, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Yeah, it's not like they're both integral to each other and they each would disappear if not for the other.

Correct.

OTOH maybe the unregulated exchanges wouldn't exist if there was no bitcoin (or the more legitimate brokerages didn't constantly try to dismiss bitcoin as a joke) but bitcoin doesn't need an exchange to exist.

Chanakya · 23rd November 2022, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The same faulty arguments have been repeated over and over again for over a decade. The posters are just pretending that I haven't refuted them.

Pointing out problems with unregulated exchanges as if they are problems with the crypto itself (repeatedly) is just part of the dishonesty that crops up all the time in this thread.

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters.

Heh, I doubt this line of discussion will really get anywhere, but I can't help remarking, it's kind of odd that you think there's whole hordes of folks that are out to "lie", and deliberately "muddy the water", and whatnot, basically people out with an agenda to besmirch the fair name of crypto.

Speaking for myself:

Yes, agreed, an issue with the exchange does not necessarily amount to an issue with the asset, as I've agreed already.

But: Is it that the nature of the crypto is such that, technically speaking, makes it more susceptible to this sort of thing? Like I've said, I don't know enough to hold an informed opinion on this, but I kind of suspect that is the case.

Because if that is not the case, then why is it that crypto exchanges keep going phut? (Again, I've not rigorously compared crypto exchange failures and crypto market cap, to other exchange failures for other assets and their market cap, but it is my [vague, admittedly uninformed] impression, that these things happen more often with crypto than with other assets.

I suppose clearly pointing out whether crypto exchanges do tend to fail more than other assets, and if so whether there's any inherent technical reason for this, or whether there's some other regulatory basis for this --- that'd probably be the way to go, I should have thought, rather than briefly telling people they're lying and muddying the water or whatever.

But hey, I'm just the guy looking in, no dog in the race really, so well, whatever suits you.

Suddenly · 23rd November 2022, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Correct.

OTOH maybe the unregulated exchanges wouldn't exist if there was no bitcoin (or the more legitimate brokerages didn't constantly try to dismiss bitcoin as a joke) but bitcoin doesn't need an exchange to exist.

Getting a little semantic here. It needs an organized on-ramp to exist in any meaningful way. If for no other reason that it is a source of information about value and that information is vital to liquidity and vital to the concept of bitcoin as a store of value. If we are all exchanging bags of cash for bitcoin in private transactions valuing that bitcoin becomes virtually impossible.

Which makes bitcoin useless as a store of value and cripples it as a currency.

Theoretically I guess there could be an all-Bitcoin economy where the worth of the coin can be determined by market forces. Price of a candy bar, etc. Theoretically.

wareyin · 23rd November 2022, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Correct.

OTOH maybe the unregulated exchanges wouldn't exist if there was no bitcoin (or the more legitimate brokerages didn't constantly try to dismiss bitcoin as a joke) but bitcoin doesn't need an exchange to exist.

As crypto has no utility outside of the exchanges, and the crypto exchanges have nothing to do without crypto, you're obviously wrong.

psionl0 · 23rd November 2022, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

As crypto has no utility outside of the exchanges, and the crypto exchanges have nothing to do without crypto, you're obviously wrong.

Do you really expect anybody to believe that bitcoin and bitcoin exchanges were created simultaneously?

psionl0 · 23rd November 2022, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

But: Is it that the nature of the crypto is such that, technically speaking, makes it more susceptible to this sort of thing?

No, cryptos are just digital assets. Nothing in them technically causes exchanges to be risky.

It is the politics of cryptos that resulted in shonky exchanges. You couldn't trade bitcoin on regulated brokerages/exchanges. Whether this is because the regulatory requirements were too onerous or the brokers didn't want to facilitate trade with something they didn't understand I don't know. But there is a demand for a bitcoin market of some type and unregulated exchanges arose to fulfill that demand.

I have always said that bitcoin exchanges are a risky proposition. There is always the risk that the exchange could fail or that the operator might just take your money and run. If you must use them then don't leave any money or bitcoins with them. Take it out as soon as you have completed your transaction.

psionl0 · 23rd November 2022, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Getting a little semantic here. It needs an organized on-ramp to exist in any meaningful way. If for no other reason that it is a source of information about value and that information is vital to liquidity and vital to the concept of bitcoin as a store of value. If we are all exchanging bags of cash for bitcoin in private transactions valuing that bitcoin becomes virtually impossible.

This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Exchanges are just a convenience. As with any other product, you just have to check the ads to see what sellers are asking or buyers are offering.

a_unique_person · 23rd November 2022, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Exchanges are just a convenience. As with any other product, you just have to check the ads to see what sellers are asking or buyers are offering.

You are referring to bartering.

lomiller · 23rd November 2022, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto.

Maybe if crypto actually functioned as currency, but it doesn't. People need exchanges to trade crypto for real currency on anything more than the smallest scale.

psionl0 · 23rd November 2022, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

You are referring to bartering.

Buying and selling is "bartering"?

a_unique_person · 24th November 2022, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Buying and selling is "bartering"?

What fungible currency are you using?

Chanakya · 24th November 2022, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

No, cryptos are just digital assets. Nothing in them technically causes exchanges to be risky.

Ok, right. Thanks for clearing that up.

(I'm assuming you know what you're talking about, and that you're right about this.)

Quote:

It is the politics of cryptos that resulted in shonky exchanges. You couldn't trade bitcoin on regulated brokerages/exchanges. Whether this is because the regulatory requirements were too onerous or the brokers didn't want to facilitate trade with something they didn't understand I don't know. But there is a demand for a bitcoin market of some type and unregulated exchanges arose to fulfill that demand.

I have always said that bitcoin exchanges are a risky proposition. There is always the risk that the exchange could fail or that the operator might just take your money and run. If you must use them then don't leave any money or bitcoins with them. Take it out as soon as you have completed your transaction.

Makes sense. A regulatory issue, then. I suppose the obvious way out of that is via corrective regulation, including audit. Meantime, as you say, caveat emptor.

psionl0 · 24th November 2022, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

What fungible currency are you using?

What fungible currency do you use when you buy something (and why are you acting so dense)?

marting · 24th November 2022, 01:23 PM

From an interview with The Atlantic a few weeks before FTX collapse where he was asked about the need for regulation. He was advocating for FTX friendly regulation because he was a "good actor" and wanted to get rid of all the "bad actors."

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...dterms/671823/

Quote:

But I do happen to be a subject-matter expert on that. And so I’m thinking about crypto policy from the perspective of my time, not my money. And so I do spend a lot of time engaging day-to-day with people in D.C. on crypto policy.
...
Bankman-Fried: It is absolutely the case right now that there are not nearly enough guardrails, and not nearly enough customer protection. Having a real regulatory framework by which good actors can help build out the ecosystem while getting rid of a lot of the scams: All of those can be super-healthy things for the crypto ecosystem, and ultimately for the world, and for consumers.

I wonder how many other exchanges are running fast and loose without internal controls? The standard seems to be to insist everything is great just prior to halting withdrawals. Pretty similar to the way banks operated in the USA back in the 1930's.

novaphile · 24th November 2022, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Exchanges are just a convenience. As with any other product, you just have to check the ads to see what sellers are asking or buyers are offering.

Hmm...

This is true but only just.

You can buy bitcoin from anyone that has some to sell, all you have to do is give them money, and hope that they'll type your wallet address into their wallet software (and the amount of bitcoin you've bought), and wait for the network to validate that transaction...

However, you would need to find a person with bitcoin to sell, and that person has to be trustworthy.

In real life (meatspace) you can buy foreign currency from any person, but in practice people prefer to deal with currency exchanges because of similar problems.

psionl0 · 24th November 2022, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

In real life (meatspace) you can buy foreign currency from any person, but in practice people prefer to deal with currency exchanges because of similar problems.

That much is true. Crypto exchanges are the most convenient way to facilitate large volumes of crypto trading.

But that is a long way away from claiming that bitcoin couldn't exist without bitcoin exchanges (or that you would never know about the price of bitcoin).

lomiller · 24th November 2022, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That much is true. Crypto exchanges are the most convenient way to facilitate large volumes of crypto trading.

what novaphile described wasn't mere convenience, it was practical necessity. Currency trade as we know it can't exist without currency exchanges.

"Yeah but you could still exchange currency on an individual to individual basis without currency exchanges" doesn't alter how fundamental they are to a viable system.

psionl0 · 24th November 2022, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

what novaphile described wasn't mere convenience, it was practical necessity. Currency trade as we know it can't exist without currency exchanges.

"Yeah but you could still exchange currency on an individual to individual basis without currency exchanges" doesn't alter how fundamental they are to a viable system.

I'm surprised that you would call bitcoin a "currency" and a "viable system" (not that there is any merit to your argument whatsoever).

Dr.Sid · 24th November 2022, 08:24 PM

Bitcoin existed without exchanges. And there are still countries where you can't authorize to any exchange, yet you can do bitcoin transactions.
Exchanges certainly help, and are certainly needed to get the market cap.

psionl0 · 24th November 2022, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Exchanges certainly help, and are certainly needed to get the market cap.

Even then you don't need an exchange because we know precisely how many bitcoins have been mined so to get a market cap all you need is a price.

Brainster · 24th November 2022, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Stankeye

Where did you get that info about both parties?

Not even the WaPo has mentioned any donations FTX made to republicans.

Top execs of FTX donated $57 million to Democrats and $22 million to Republicans according to this article.

Quote:

After the collapse of FTX, a number of journalists reported on the fact that FTX executives deployed significant donations to political leaders in the United States. During the most recent election cycle leading up to the U.S. midterms in 2022, reports claim that Sam Bankman-Fried donated more than $40 million to Democrats via super PACs and direct contributions. Furthermore, reports also claim that FTX Digital Markets’ co-chief executive officer Ryan Salame gave $22 million to Republicans.

Although I do note that I got zero results for Salame's name at Open Secrets.

Dr.Sid · 24th November 2022, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Even then you don't need an exchange because we know precisely how many bitcoins have been mined so to get a market cap all you need is a price.

I mean THE market cap bitcoin has, $315B atm. Without exchanges bitcoin was insignificant IT oddity. Only exchanges allowed it to be headline topic.

Samson · 25th November 2022, 04:39 AM

I have been analyzing the technical chart and expect 4k bitcoin.

jeremyp · 25th November 2022, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters.

No it wasn't. I said the fraudulent exchanges appear because of the nature of the asset [crypto currency] they deal in. I said there is a relationship between the unregulated nature of crypto currencies and the fraudulent exchanges that deal in them, not that they are identical.

It's somewhat telling that you can only engage in this thread by misrepresenting other people's arguments.

jeremyp · 25th November 2022, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Even then you don't need an exchange because we know precisely how many bitcoins have been mined so to get a market cap all you need is a price.

How do you get a price without exchanges? How do you get hold of Bitcoin without exchanges?

At the basic level, I could find somebody who has got some Bitcoin and we could agree between ourselves what I should give them in return for their Bitcoin, but, as soon as you have a lot of people trying to get gold of or get rid of Bitcoin, exchanges will start to appear.

Unfortunately, the unregulated nature of crypto currency makes it easy for exchanges to create scams.

jeremyp · 25th November 2022, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

No, cryptos are just digital assets. Nothing in them technically causes exchanges to be risky.

OK.

Quote:

It is the politics of cryptos that resulted in shonky exchanges.

You just contradicted the sentence before.

Quote:

You couldn't trade bitcoin on regulated brokerages/exchanges.

I would dispute that. You could regulate crypto trading just like you regulate trading on the stock market or commodities.

Samson · 26th November 2022, 01:33 AM

Two things.
1. Bitcoin is an amazing piece of software, genius by any measure.
2. Nothing can stop it going to zero or a trillion.

But there is no chance technically that it does.not print new lows below 15k.
Do not purchase this nonsensical "asset".

wareyin · 28th November 2022, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Do you really expect anybody to believe that bitcoin and bitcoin exchanges were created simultaneously?

Why would I expect anybody to believe a point that I didn't try to make?

FatherLukeduke · 28th November 2022, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

I have been analyzing the technical chart and expect 4k bitcoin.

I've been analysing my tea leaves and they say you should stop posting "technical analysis" nonsense.

Suddenly · 28th November 2022, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Exchanges are just a convenience. As with any other product, you just have to check the ads to see what sellers are asking or buyers are offering.

Other people have hit around this, but it's going to destroy liquidity when people can't easily value something in relation to the dominant currency. Given that bitcoin's relevance is as a store of value and speculation tied in with that making it far less liquid would cause it to collapse.

Whether bitcoin being strictly barter is bitcoin existing is a question of taste, but a coin would end up being more worth a pizza than a car and irrelevant to the lives of almost everyone.

jeremyp · 28th November 2022, 10:00 AM

BlockFi has filed for chapter 11.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ftx-s-meltdown

Are there any Crypto currency institutions that are solvent?

The_Animus · 28th November 2022, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by FatherLukeduke

I've been analysing my tea leaves and they say you should stop posting "technical analysis" nonsense.

I second this. Past predictions have been wrong so often that the "technical analysis" is rightly viewed by everyone as the nonsense it is.

wareyin · 28th November 2022, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

BlockFi has filed for chapter 11.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ftx-s-meltdown

Are there any Crypto currency institutions that are solvent?

When the company that provides risk management for cryptoasset owners files for bankruptcy, it's time to get out of the crypto speculation game.

Samson · 28th November 2022, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

When the company that provides risk management for cryptoasset owners files for bankruptcy, it's time to get out of the crypto speculation game.

I suggest shorting bitcoin to 4k.

22nd November 2022, 06:35 AM	#2882
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 3,996	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Sure it does. Crypto brings out the crazy. You know it doesn't make sense, but the thought of all that money you could be making overrides common sense. Some people say Crypto is just gambling. They are wrong - it's much worse. Crypto promises that everyone will be a winner, which other forms of gambling don't. And crypto pretends to be a better alternative to fiat currency - as if it has a firm financial basis and is morally superior - when it is neither. Bitcoin is fatally flawed and very immoral, but the thought of all that 'free' money stops people from looking too closely at it. I feel sorry for Sam Bankman-Fried and his friends. I think they bought into the hype and thought that if they were smart enough then everyone could be winner. The FTX crash is proof that everyone isn't (even those who 'hold' forever). It won't be the last. Most have convinced themselves that FTX was a one-off anomaly, when in fact such events are an inherent part of the system. One day it may get to the point where (almost) everyone is loser and it collapses completely - while a few sad hodlers still insist that so long as crypto exists they will eventually win. You're saying greed gone out of control, ended up clouding the man's judgment? (His financial judgment, that is --- moral judgment clearly ran right out the door long back for the likes of him.) Possible I suppose; in fact quite likely just that, absent some more nuanced explanation (or convoluted rationalization?). Incidentally, came across this thread started in Trials, that I've just now subscribed to (but not commented in, having nothing worthwhile to add), that has a very detailed OP, and will no doubt explore the Bankman-Fried thing more fully. Originally Posted by psionl0 This article was about a crypto exchange and not about cryptos themselves. Your entire narrative is based on a lie. Actually that sounds like a fair point, the highlighted I mean. Crookedness at an exchange does not necessarily translate to crookedness or weakness in the assets it deals/dealt in. Although I have to say, I suspect cryptos are inherently more susceptible to this kind of gaming than stocks say --- in practice at any rate, given the maturity of stock markets, even if not necessarily in theory (although perhaps even intrinsically and not just de facto). I readily admit, though, that I really don't know enough either about the mechanics of crypto as far as this aspect, nor about how crypto exhanges have fared since these things got going a decade or so ago, to really express more than just a vague unsupported hunch/guess/opinion on this, that I can't really defend if called on to. As for the rest of the post, apart from the highlighted I mean, I find it curious how you tend to attack those that find fault with this sainted asset class. Even if you're right, and he's mistaken, why must that mean that he's lying, as opposed to merely mistaken?
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 3,996

22nd November 2022, 07:20 AM	#2883
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by Chanakya As for the rest of the post, apart from the highlighted I mean, I find it curious how you tend to attack those that find fault with this sainted asset class. Even if you're right, and he's mistaken, why must that mean that he's lying, as opposed to merely mistaken? The same faulty arguments have been repeated over and over again for over a decade. The posters are just pretending that I haven't refuted them. Pointing out problems with unregulated exchanges as if they are problems with the crypto itself (repeatedly) is just part of the dishonesty that crops up all the time in this thread.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd November 2022, 01:14 AM	#2885
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by jeremyp The problem is that the crypto bros keep telling us that the unregulated nature of crypto currencies is an advantage. These fraudulent exchanges keep popping up because of the nature of the assets they deal in. This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd November 2022, 07:30 AM	#2887
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by wareyin Yeah, it's not like they're both integral to each other and they each would disappear if not for the other. Correct. OTOH maybe the unregulated exchanges wouldn't exist if there was no bitcoin (or the more legitimate brokerages didn't constantly try to dismiss bitcoin as a joke) but bitcoin doesn't need an exchange to exist.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd November 2022, 08:01 AM	#2888
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 3,996	Originally Posted by psionl0 The same faulty arguments have been repeated over and over again for over a decade. The posters are just pretending that I haven't refuted them. Pointing out problems with unregulated exchanges as if they are problems with the crypto itself (repeatedly) is just part of the dishonesty that crops up all the time in this thread. Originally Posted by psionl0 This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters. Heh, I doubt this line of discussion will really get anywhere, but I can't help remarking, it's kind of odd that you think there's whole hordes of folks that are out to "lie", and deliberately "muddy the water", and whatnot, basically people out with an agenda to besmirch the fair name of crypto. Speaking for myself: Yes, agreed, an issue with the exchange does not necessarily amount to an issue with the asset, as I've agreed already. But: Is it that the nature of the crypto is such that, technically speaking, makes it more susceptible to this sort of thing? Like I've said, I don't know enough to hold an informed opinion on this, but I kind of suspect that is the case. Because if that is not the case, then why is it that crypto exchanges keep going phut? (Again, I've not rigorously compared crypto exchange failures and crypto market cap, to other exchange failures for other assets and their market cap, but it is my [vague, admittedly uninformed] impression, that these things happen more often with crypto than with other assets. I suppose clearly pointing out whether crypto exchanges do tend to fail more than other assets, and if so whether there's any inherent technical reason for this, or whether there's some other regulatory basis for this --- that'd probably be the way to go, I should have thought, rather than briefly telling people they're lying and muddying the water or whatever. But hey, I'm just the guy looking in, no dog in the race really, so well, whatever suits you.
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 3,996

22nd November 2022, 05:56 AM	#2881
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,277	Originally Posted by psionl0 This article was about a crypto exchange and not about cryptos themselves. Your entire narrative is based on a lie. What do you think it is about cryptocurrency that has caused all of these crypto exchanges to be set up and then go bankrupt, seemingly with fraud or embezzlement being involved quite often.

23rd November 2022, 01:05 AM	#2884
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,277	Originally Posted by psionl0 The same faulty arguments have been repeated over and over again for over a decade. The posters are just pretending that I haven't refuted them. Pointing out problems with unregulated exchanges as if they are problems with the crypto itself (repeatedly) is just part of the dishonesty that crops up all the time in this thread. The problem is that the crypto bros keep telling us that the unregulated nature of crypto currencies is an advantage. These fraudulent exchanges keep popping up because of the nature of the assets they deal in.

23rd November 2022, 06:10 AM	#2886
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 10,868	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters. Yeah, it's not like they're both integral to each other and they each would disappear if not for the other....oh, wait a minute, it is, isn't it.

23rd November 2022, 08:18 AM	#2889
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,310	Originally Posted by psionl0 Correct. OTOH maybe the unregulated exchanges wouldn't exist if there was no bitcoin (or the more legitimate brokerages didn't constantly try to dismiss bitcoin as a joke) but bitcoin doesn't need an exchange to exist. Getting a little semantic here. It needs an organized on-ramp to exist in any meaningful way. If for no other reason that it is a source of information about value and that information is vital to liquidity and vital to the concept of bitcoin as a store of value. If we are all exchanging bags of cash for bitcoin in private transactions valuing that bitcoin becomes virtually impossible. Which makes bitcoin useless as a store of value and cripples it as a currency. Theoretically I guess there could be an all-Bitcoin economy where the worth of the coin can be determined by market forces. Price of a candy bar, etc. Theoretically.

23rd November 2022, 08:20 AM	#2890
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 10,868	Originally Posted by psionl0 Correct. OTOH maybe the unregulated exchanges wouldn't exist if there was no bitcoin (or the more legitimate brokerages didn't constantly try to dismiss bitcoin as a joke) but bitcoin doesn't need an exchange to exist. As crypto has no utility outside of the exchanges, and the crypto exchanges have nothing to do without crypto, you're obviously wrong.

23rd November 2022, 03:07 PM	#2891
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by wareyin As crypto has no utility outside of the exchanges, and the crypto exchanges have nothing to do without crypto, you're obviously wrong. Do you really expect anybody to believe that bitcoin and bitcoin exchanges were created simultaneously?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd November 2022, 03:28 PM	#2892
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by Chanakya But: Is it that the nature of the crypto is such that, technically speaking, makes it more susceptible to this sort of thing? No, cryptos are just digital assets. Nothing in them technically causes exchanges to be risky. It is the politics of cryptos that resulted in shonky exchanges. You couldn't trade bitcoin on regulated brokerages/exchanges. Whether this is because the regulatory requirements were too onerous or the brokers didn't want to facilitate trade with something they didn't understand I don't know. But there is a demand for a bitcoin market of some type and unregulated exchanges arose to fulfill that demand. I have always said that bitcoin exchanges are a risky proposition. There is always the risk that the exchange could fail or that the operator might just take your money and run. If you must use them then don't leave any money or bitcoins with them. Take it out as soon as you have completed your transaction.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd November 2022, 03:33 PM	#2893
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by Suddenly Getting a little semantic here. It needs an organized on-ramp to exist in any meaningful way. If for no other reason that it is a source of information about value and that information is vital to liquidity and vital to the concept of bitcoin as a store of value. If we are all exchanging bags of cash for bitcoin in private transactions valuing that bitcoin becomes virtually impossible. This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Exchanges are just a convenience. As with any other product, you just have to check the ads to see what sellers are asking or buyers are offering.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd November 2022, 06:18 PM	#2894
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,911	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Exchanges are just a convenience. As with any other product, you just have to check the ads to see what sellers are asking or buyers are offering. You are referring to bartering.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

23rd November 2022, 08:04 PM	#2895
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,671	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Maybe if crypto actually functioned as currency, but it doesn't. People need exchanges to trade crypto for real currency on anything more than the smallest scale.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

23rd November 2022, 09:01 PM	#2896
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by a_unique_person You are referring to bartering. Buying and selling is "bartering"?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th November 2022, 04:41 AM	#2897
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,911	Originally Posted by psionl0 Buying and selling is "bartering"? What fungible currency are you using?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

24th November 2022, 07:14 AM	#2898
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 3,996	Originally Posted by psionl0 No, cryptos are just digital assets. Nothing in them technically causes exchanges to be risky. Ok, right. Thanks for clearing that up. (I'm assuming you know what you're talking about, and that you're right about this.) Quote: It is the politics of cryptos that resulted in shonky exchanges. You couldn't trade bitcoin on regulated brokerages/exchanges. Whether this is because the regulatory requirements were too onerous or the brokers didn't want to facilitate trade with something they didn't understand I don't know. But there is a demand for a bitcoin market of some type and unregulated exchanges arose to fulfill that demand. I have always said that bitcoin exchanges are a risky proposition. There is always the risk that the exchange could fail or that the operator might just take your money and run. If you must use them then don't leave any money or bitcoins with them. Take it out as soon as you have completed your transaction. Makes sense. A regulatory issue, then. I suppose the obvious way out of that is via corrective regulation, including audit. Meantime, as you say, caveat emptor.
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 3,996

24th November 2022, 07:38 AM	#2899
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by a_unique_person What fungible currency are you using? What fungible currency do you use when you buy something (and why are you acting so dense)?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th November 2022, 01:23 PM	#2900
marting Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,621	From an interview with The Atlantic a few weeks before FTX collapse where he was asked about the need for regulation. He was advocating for FTX friendly regulation because he was a "good actor" and wanted to get rid of all the "bad actors." https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...dterms/671823/ Quote: But I do happen to be a subject-matter expert on that. And so I’m thinking about crypto policy from the perspective of my time, not my money. And so I do spend a lot of time engaging day-to-day with people in D.C. on crypto policy. ... Bankman-Fried: It is absolutely the case right now that there are not nearly enough guardrails, and not nearly enough customer protection. Having a real regulatory framework by which good actors can help build out the ecosystem while getting rid of a lot of the scams: All of those can be super-healthy things for the crypto ecosystem, and ultimately for the world, and for consumers. I wonder how many other exchanges are running fast and loose without internal controls? The standard seems to be to insist everything is great just prior to halting withdrawals. Pretty similar to the way banks operated in the USA back in the 1930's.
marting Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,621	__________________ Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.

24th November 2022, 02:28 PM	#2901
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 3,981	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is not true at all. You don't need a fully developed exchange to facilitate trade or learn the current price of a crypto. Exchanges are just a convenience. As with any other product, you just have to check the ads to see what sellers are asking or buyers are offering. Hmm... This is true but only just. You can buy bitcoin from anyone that has some to sell, all you have to do is give them money, and hope that they'll type your wallet address into their wallet software (and the amount of bitcoin you've bought), and wait for the network to validate that transaction... However, you would need to find a person with bitcoin to sell, and that person has to be trustworthy. In real life (meatspace) you can buy foreign currency from any person, but in practice people prefer to deal with currency exchanges because of similar problems.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

24th November 2022, 03:45 PM	#2902
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by novaphile In real life (meatspace) you can buy foreign currency from any person, but in practice people prefer to deal with currency exchanges because of similar problems. That much is true. Crypto exchanges are the most convenient way to facilitate large volumes of crypto trading. But that is a long way away from claiming that bitcoin couldn't exist without bitcoin exchanges (or that you would never know about the price of bitcoin).
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th November 2022, 07:16 PM	#2903
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,671	Originally Posted by psionl0 That much is true. Crypto exchanges are the most convenient way to facilitate large volumes of crypto trading. what novaphile described wasn't mere convenience, it was practical necessity. Currency trade as we know it can't exist without currency exchanges. "Yeah but you could still exchange currency on an individual to individual basis without currency exchanges" doesn't alter how fundamental they are to a viable system.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

24th November 2022, 08:08 PM	#2904
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by lomiller what novaphile described wasn't mere convenience, it was practical necessity. Currency trade as we know it can't exist without currency exchanges. "Yeah but you could still exchange currency on an individual to individual basis without currency exchanges" doesn't alter how fundamental they are to a viable system. I'm surprised that you would call bitcoin a "currency" and a "viable system" (not that there is any merit to your argument whatsoever).
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 24th November 2022 at 08:10 PM.

24th November 2022, 08:24 PM	#2905
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,993	Bitcoin existed without exchanges. And there are still countries where you can't authorize to any exchange, yet you can do bitcoin transactions. Exchanges certainly help, and are certainly needed to get the market cap.

24th November 2022, 08:30 PM	#2906
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,868	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Exchanges certainly help, and are certainly needed to get the market cap. Even then you don't need an exchange because we know precisely how many bitcoins have been mined so to get a market cap all you need is a price.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th November 2022, 08:36 PM	#2907
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 19,562	Originally Posted by Stankeye Where did you get that info about both parties? Not even the WaPo has mentioned any donations FTX made to republicans. Top execs of FTX donated $57 million to Democrats and $22 million to Republicans according to this article. Quote: After the collapse of FTX, a number of journalists reported on the fact that FTX executives deployed significant donations to political leaders in the United States. During the most recent election cycle leading up to the U.S. midterms in 2022, reports claim that Sam Bankman-Fried donated more than $40 million to Democrats via super PACs and direct contributions. Furthermore, reports also claim that FTX Digital Markets’ co-chief executive officer Ryan Salame gave $22 million to Republicans. Although I do note that I got zero results for Salame's name at Open Secrets.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

24th November 2022, 10:35 PM	#2908
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,993	Originally Posted by psionl0 Even then you don't need an exchange because we know precisely how many bitcoins have been mined so to get a market cap all you need is a price. I mean THE market cap bitcoin has, $315B atm. Without exchanges bitcoin was insignificant IT oddity. Only exchanges allowed it to be headline topic.

25th November 2022, 04:39 AM	#2909
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	I have been analyzing the technical chart and expect 4k bitcoin.

25th November 2022, 05:00 AM	#2910
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,277	Originally Posted by psionl0 This is a case in point. Deliberately using cryptos and crypto exchanges interchangeably in an attempt to muddy the waters. No it wasn't. I said the fraudulent exchanges appear because of the nature of the asset [crypto currency] they deal in. I said there is a relationship between the unregulated nature of crypto currencies and the fraudulent exchanges that deal in them, not that they are identical. It's somewhat telling that you can only engage in this thread by misrepresenting other people's arguments.

25th November 2022, 05:16 AM	#2911
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,277	Originally Posted by psionl0 Even then you don't need an exchange because we know precisely how many bitcoins have been mined so to get a market cap all you need is a price. How do you get a price without exchanges? How do you get hold of Bitcoin without exchanges? At the basic level, I could find somebody who has got some Bitcoin and we could agree between ourselves what I should give them in return for their Bitcoin, but, as soon as you have a lot of people trying to get gold of or get rid of Bitcoin, exchanges will start to appear. Unfortunately, the unregulated nature of crypto currency makes it easy for exchanges to create scams.

25th November 2022, 05:21 AM	#2912
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,277	Originally Posted by psionl0 No, cryptos are just digital assets. Nothing in them technically causes exchanges to be risky. OK. Quote: It is the politics of cryptos that resulted in shonky exchanges. You just contradicted the sentence before. Quote: You couldn't trade bitcoin on regulated brokerages/exchanges. I would dispute that. You could regulate crypto trading just like you regulate trading on the stock market or commodities.

26th November 2022, 01:33 AM	#2913
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,270	Two things. 1. Bitcoin is an amazing piece of software, genius by any measure. 2. Nothing can stop it going to zero or a trillion. But there is no chance technically that it does.not print new lows below 15k. Do not purchase this nonsensical "asset".

28th November 2022, 07:00 AM	#2914
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 10,868	Originally Posted by psionl0 Do you really expect anybody to believe that bitcoin and bitcoin exchanges were created simultaneously? Why would I expect anybody to believe a point that I didn't try to make?

28th November 2022, 08:19 AM	#2915
FatherLukeduke Thinker Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 130	Originally Posted by Samson I have been analyzing the technical chart and expect 4k bitcoin. I've been analysing my tea leaves and they say you should stop posting "technical analysis" nonsense.
FatherLukeduke Thinker Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 130