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Old 22nd March 2021, 04:48 PM   #601
eerok
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Interesting defense... claim that you are innocent of defamation by claiming you lied to the courts.

(After all, her claims that the Dominion voting machines were rigged appeared in more than just the media... it was part of her lawsuit over the Georgia election.)
The argument is more like politically-motivated lies are protected speech. But yeah, that's supposed to extend to statements made in court. Sounds pretty sketchy.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 05:18 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did you miss the whole trying to stop a legit POTUS being sworn in? Inciting a riot? Trying to pressure Georgia election officials into throwing the election in his favor?
Trump gives himself enough weasel room to introduce doubt, and that has worked in his favor so far. His communication style makes it difficult to even quote him directly. So it's that much harder to say a threat was made, or a bribe offered, etc. Did he intend for his fans to break into Congress and force an evacuation? IMO that's a pretty high bar and I'm not sure the government can prove it.

Similar argument about Georgia. I'm not sure that's a provable crime. But I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And who cares that Trump will call it a witch hunt? That's a given no matter what.
You got me there
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Old 22nd March 2021, 05:31 PM   #603
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I happen to believe, yes, Trump has wiggled out of a lot of crimes, but he's too far out in the open now to get away with it.

We'll see.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 05:44 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Interesting defense... claim that you are innocent of defamation by claiming you lied to the courts.

(After all, her claims that the Dominion voting machines were rigged appeared in more than just the media... it was part of her lawsuit over the Georgia election.)
If she is now admitting to lying in court, under oath, that should result in

1. Immediate disbarment.
2. Immediate arrest pending trial for perjury.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 22nd March 2021 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 05:52 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Trump gives himself enough weasel room to introduce doubt, and that has worked in his favor so far. His communication style makes it difficult to even quote him directly. So it's that much harder to say a threat was made, or a bribe offered, etc. Did he intend for his fans to break into Congress and force an evacuation? IMO that's a pretty high bar and I'm not sure the government can prove it.
I could possibly see a prosecutor turning the tables here and using Fox News' (and now Sydney Powell's) tactic...

"No reasonable person could have understood Trump's words to mean anything other than a call to storm the capital and stop the counting of EC votes" After all, the whole event was literally called "Stop The Steal"

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Similar argument about Georgia. I'm not sure that's a provable crime. But I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
You got me there
Georgia's case is much firmer. Trump asked Brad Raffensperger to find the exact number of votes to win, and implied that there would be consequences if he failed.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 05:52 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If she is now admitting to lying in court, under oath, that should resaut in

1. Immediate disbarrment.
2. Her immediate arrest pending trial for perjury.
Her arrest needs to be on the nightly TV news. And it would be hilarious!
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Old 22nd March 2021, 05:58 PM   #607
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I hope some charges are made and can stick before he gets his media empire off the ground. All he has to do is start it. It will take on a life of its own. In fact, it would probably manage better if he kept his mittens off of it after the debut.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 06:24 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
It probably belongs more properly in the Trump's Coup thread, but here's more on it:

Sidney Powell Tells Judge ‘No Reasonable Person’ Would Believe Her Dominion Conspiracy Theories Were ‘Statements of Fact’ [lawandcrime.com]
Ah, the Tucker "I lie too often to be taken seriously" Carlson defense.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 06:26 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I hope some charges are made and can stick before he gets his media empire off the ground. All he has to do is start it. It will take on a life of its own. In fact, it would probably manage better if he kept his mittens off of it after the debut.
Oh, there are plans afoot to help it sink without trace as it comes off the launching slide.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 06:26 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I could possibly see a prosecutor turning the tables here and using Fox News' (and now Sydney Powell's) tactic...

"No reasonable person could have understood Trump's words to mean anything other than a call to storm the capital and stop the counting of EC votes" After all, the whole event was literally called "Stop The Steal"



Georgia's case is much firmer. Trump asked Brad Raffensperger to find the exact number of votes to win, and implied that there would be consequences if he failed.
I think a reasonable person knows exactly what he meant in that call. An unreasonable person would think he needs to explicitly say what he meant or it doesn't count.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 06:58 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Why should Trump have been treated better than Cohen? Both engaged in the same crime... if Cohen was punished for it, so should Trump.
Authorities had tons of evidence against Cohen, who was falling all over himself to provide it. They don't have nearly as much against Trump. For starters, Trump hasn't pleaded guilty to 8 felonies, or put himself under oath.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 07:39 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Authorities had tons of evidence against Cohen, who was falling all over himself to provide it. They don't have nearly as much against Trump. For starters, Trump hasn't pleaded guilty to 8 felonies, or put himself under oath.
His signature was on the ******* cheque for Christ's sake! That alone would get ANYONE else indicted, charged and convicted. Don't believe me? Try contracting someone to carry out a criminal act on your behalf, then personally sign then cheque, then have someone take the cleared cheque to the Police and report you.

Here's the thing. Mob bosses like Carmine Tramunti, John Gotti and Tony Corello were all convicted for crimes they didn't personally commit; crimes that they told others to commit. All that was needed to get them were witnesses willing to testify that they were told to commit those crimes.

The Trump Family are a mob family; DJ Trump himself is the Mob Boss. There is no reason why Cohen's testimony shouldn't put him away.


ETA: https://fortune.com/2018/12/07/feds-...paign-finance/
Attorneys from the Southern District of New York state explicitly in the court filing that Cohen “acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1” in handling payments to two women who claimed to have an affair with Trump long before the election. Trump is identified in this and other filings by U.S. attorneys as “Individual-1,” who “was elected President.”
Were it not for the DoJ's OLM memo as regards indicting a sitting president, this would have led directly to an indictment against Trump for a campaign finance violation, a Federal criminal offense - in other words, anyone else would have been indicted and charged for the commission of a crime.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 09:06 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Authorities had tons of evidence against Cohen, who was falling all over himself to provide it. They don't have nearly as much against Trump. For starters, Trump hasn't pleaded guilty to 8 felonies, or put himself under oath.
Exactly individual 1 could be anyone!
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Old 23rd March 2021, 10:34 AM   #614
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It's an odd one. Powell's defence attorneys are simultaneously saying that no reasonable person could have believed her claims were true, *and* that they were the facts on which she based her lawsuits.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 10:37 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's an odd one. Powell's defence attorneys are simultaneously saying that no reasonable person could have believed her claims were true, *and* that they were the facts on which she based her lawsuits.
Well essentially, the two claims are not contradicting. Together they do, however, imply that her lawsuits were baseless.

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Old 23rd March 2021, 10:46 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well essentially, the two claims are not contradicting.
How are they not? Unless you're suggesting that they are suggesting she's an unreasonable person, which would definitely be an odd defence.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 11:36 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
It probably belongs more properly in the Trump's Coup thread, but here's more on it:

Sidney Powell Tells Judge ‘No Reasonable Person’ Would Believe Her Dominion Conspiracy Theories Were ‘Statements of Fact’ [lawandcrime.com]
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Interesting defense... claim that you are innocent of defamation by claiming you lied to the courts.

(After all, her claims that the Dominion voting machines were rigged appeared in more than just the media... it was part of her lawsuit over the Georgia election.)

More coverage from the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...n-fraud-claims

Quote:
In her defense against the Dominion defamation lawsuit, Powell argued that whatever “reasonable persons” thought of her wild claims, Dominion had failed to demonstrate that she herself thought them to be false as she spoke them – a key distinction in defamation cases.

“In fact,” Powell’s motion reads, “she believed the allegations then and she believes them now.”
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Old 23rd March 2021, 12:09 PM   #618
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what reasonable person would call me reasonable
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Old 23rd March 2021, 12:22 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I could possibly see a prosecutor turning the tables here and using Fox News' (and now Sydney Powell's) tactic...

"No reasonable person could have understood Trump's words to mean anything other than a call to storm the capital and stop the counting of EC votes" After all, the whole event was literally called "Stop The Steal"



Georgia's case is much firmer. Trump asked Brad Raffensperger to find the exact number of votes to win, and implied that there would be consequences if he failed.
IANAL, but the statute i read says that a threat or inducement is not necessary. Simply asking an election official to produce a different outcome is illegal - even if the election official takes no action to change the result.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 12:46 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
How are they not? Unless you're suggesting that they are suggesting she's an unreasonable person, which would definitely be an odd defence.
Well, that was sort of my point.

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Old 23rd March 2021, 12:54 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Quote:
In her defense against the Dominion defamation lawsuit, Powell argued that whatever “reasonable persons” thought of her wild claims, Dominion had failed to demonstrate that she herself thought them to be false as she spoke them – a key distinction in defamation cases.

“In fact,” Powell’s motion reads, “she believed the allegations then and she believes them now.”
So no reasonable person would believe her statements, but she does. Hmm.
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Old 23rd March 2021, 01:00 PM   #622
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No reasonable person, I can go with that. There was a substantial portion of 74 million Americans that fit that category.
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Old 24th March 2021, 01:16 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The argument is more like politically-motivated lies are protected speech. But yeah, that's supposed to extend to statements made in court. Sounds pretty sketchy.
That is correct. Powell is not arguing that no reasonable person would believe her statements. She isn't claiming that this was parody or satire like in Hustler Magazine vs. Falwell. Or that this for the purpose of entertainment.

Powell is arguing that a reasonable person would not consider her statements to be fact, but rather opinion. The courts allow a fair amount of leeway for political rhetoric.

If a sports writer says a running back murdered the opposing team's offensive linemen, that is not understood to be an accusation of criminal murder but rather a figure of speech. If a political candidate says their opponent is a corrupt criminal who has committed every illegal act under the sun, that is understood to be hyperbolic political rhetoric. In that context, statements that are figures of speech or are vague or hyperbolic or political rhetoric are understood to be mud slinging opinions rather than rock solid statements of fact.

That does not appear to apply to Powell's case. She isn't a politician. Her accusations were not against another politician. In fact, Dominion, by the nature of its work, must be politically neutral. Her statements were not vague. She made very specific claims. They were not hyperbolic. They were not political rhetoric. She made the claims within a context where she expected the statements to be believed and provided information intended to be evidence supporting those claims.

It is not whether a reasonable person would believe the claims, only whether a reasonable person would believe the claims are facts or opinion.
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Old 24th March 2021, 03:17 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
That does not appear to apply to Powell's case. She isn't a politician. Her accusations were not against another politician. In fact, Dominion, by the nature of its work, must be politically neutral. Her statements were not vague. She made very specific claims. They were not hyperbolic. They were not political rhetoric. She made the claims within a context where she expected the statements to be believed and provided information intended to be evidence supporting those claims.
And she was speaking with the authority of a lawyer.

The other people who've used this argument have been media personalities first and foremost, even if Fox deliberately blur the lines between what's a news show & what isn't.
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Old 24th March 2021, 03:21 AM   #625
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She made the statements as a basis for a number of suits in a high courts of law on behalf of the President of the USA. That's no small claims or traffic court stuff. Nor is it Judge Judy made-for-crappy-TV-drama stuff. And I suspect even Judy Sheindlin would not allow that sort of play-for-the-cameras **** in her court.

So if Powell is now saying those statements she made previously were just "LOL Psyche! Gotcha!" then surely there must be penalties for her as a lawyer. Like disbarment if not jail.
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Old 24th March 2021, 06:57 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Her statements were not vague. She made very specific claims. They were not hyperbolic. They were not political rhetoric. She made the claims within a context where she expected the statements to be believed and provided information intended to be evidence supporting those claims.
That's it, but apparently she's going to flail around with arguments that skirt these facts. The other thing is whether she's off the hook for truly believing her nonsense, but I think it's relevant that she had no decent evidence to support her claims. I don't think there's an insanity defence for defamation cases.
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Old 24th March 2021, 09:11 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
His signature was on the ******* cheque for Christ's sake! That alone would get ANYONE else indicted, charged and convicted. Don't believe me? Try contracting someone to carry out a criminal act on your behalf, then personally sign then cheque, then have someone take the cleared cheque to the Police and report you.

Here's the thing. Mob bosses like Carmine Tramunti, John Gotti and Tony Corello were all convicted for crimes they didn't personally commit; crimes that they told others to commit. All that was needed to get them were witnesses willing to testify that they were told to commit those crimes.

The Trump Family are a mob family; DJ Trump himself is the Mob Boss. There is no reason why Cohen's testimony shouldn't put him away.


ETA: https://fortune.com/2018/12/07/feds-...paign-finance/
Attorneys from the Southern District of New York state explicitly in the court filing that Cohen “acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1” in handling payments to two women who claimed to have an affair with Trump long before the election. Trump is identified in this and other filings by U.S. attorneys as “Individual-1,” who “was elected President.”
Were it not for the DoJ's OLM memo as regards indicting a sitting president, this would have led directly to an indictment against Trump for a campaign finance violation, a Federal criminal offense - in other words, anyone else would have been indicted and charged for the commission of a crime.
For giving an old flame $130K to keep her mouth shut? It's chicken****. If he really is a Mob boss get genuine racketeering charges against him.

Cohen mystifies me. It doesn't seem to me like he even saved his own skin.
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Old 24th March 2021, 09:30 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly individual 1 could be anyone!
I don't think very many people care. I don't, and I can't stand Trump.
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Old 24th March 2021, 10:24 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
For giving an old flame $130K to keep her mouth shut.....
You missed out this really important bit

"....because it might affect his chances of winning a presidential election!"

If you pay someone (in other words, bribe them) to not say things that might otherwise affect you in a campaign for election to public office ie. - buy their silence, that is a Federal crime under 52 USC § 301— FEDERAL ELECTION CAMPAIGNS, and the punishments can be severe.

Quote:
52 USC § 30109
(d) Penalties; defenses; mitigation of offenses
(1)
(A) Any person who knowingly and wilfully commits a violation of any provision of this Act which involves the making, receiving, or reporting of any contribution, donation, or expenditure
(i) aggregating $25,000 or more during a calendar year shall be fined under title 18, or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both; or
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's chicken****
Potentially five years in the Federal slammer is not chicken ****. He'll be 75 in June, if he was jailed and served the full term, that means he'd be at least 80 when he got out. It could kill him given how unfit and how old he is.

But best of all, if he was in the slammer, he'd be muzzled and out of politics - you cant run for the presidency from jail.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If he really is a Mob boss get genuine racketeering charges against him.
Both things can and should happen.

If I was prosecuting him, I would not want other prosecutors to drop their cases, or litigants to drop their lawsuits. I would want to him to keep having to look over his shoulder, knowing that if he skates on one of the sets of charges or lawsuits, there are other charges or lawsuits awaiting him. Keep the legal pressure on him 24/7/365, and the lawsuits too. I want to see this vile asshat spend the rest if his miserable life in jail or at least being a defendant.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Cohen mystifies me. It doesn't seem to me like he even saved his own skin.
He's no mystery to me - I know exactly what he did, and why he did it. He knew that the Feds had him dead to rights, and the if he fought them he would almost certain lose, and spend a LOT of time in jail. I'm betting his lawyers told him his best bet was to admit guilt, and co-operate - give up Trump. Its what I would have done in his position, and what I would have advised him to do if I was his lawyer.
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Old 24th March 2021, 10:27 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
For giving an old flame $130K to keep her mouth shut? It's chicken****. If he really is a Mob boss get genuine racketeering charges against him. ...
Did you miss the point of that crime? It wasn't because he paid Daniels off. It was because he broke election campaign finance laws doing it. And he hid his actions to hide them from the voters (poorly executed of course).
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Old 25th March 2021, 04:01 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did you miss the point of that crime? It wasn't because he paid Daniels off. It was because he broke election campaign finance laws doing it. And he hid his actions to hide them from the voters (poorly executed of course).
Maybe I’m naive, but it offended me that he bald faced lied to reporters, and hence to us, about any knowledge of the payoff. On Air Force One, no less.

Reminded me of Clinton’s finger-wagging denial about “that woman...”. Maybe “all Presidents lie”, but some lies are more revealing than others.
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Old 25th March 2021, 07:10 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't think very many people care. I don't, and I can't stand Trump.
Yep felonies just don't matter against the rich.
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Old 28th March 2021, 09:26 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
She made the statements as a basis for a number of suits in a high courts of law on behalf of the President of the USA. That's no small claims or traffic court stuff. Nor is it Judge Judy made-for-crappy-TV-drama stuff. And I suspect even Judy Sheindlin would not allow that sort of play-for-the-cameras **** in her court.

So if Powell is now saying those statements she made previously were just "LOL Psyche! Gotcha!" then surely there must be penalties for her as a lawyer. Like disbarment if not jail.

She'd be fine with it ... as long as the cameras were on her.
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Old 28th March 2021, 09:40 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's an odd one. Powell's defence attorneys are simultaneously saying that no reasonable person could have believed her claims were true, *and* that they were the facts on which she based her lawsuits.
More correctly, her attorneys are saying that her claims were opinions not statements of fact.

Of course that still leaves her in a messy situation since you can base a lawsuit on opinion.
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Old 28th March 2021, 03:11 PM   #635
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The latest Opening Arguments podcast is about the Powell lawsuit. It's a bit of a Hail Mary on her behalf, according to Andrew Torrez.
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Old 28th March 2021, 04:19 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Potentially five years in the Federal slammer is not chicken ****. He'll be 75 in June, if he was jailed and served the full term, that means he'd be at least 80 when he got out. It could kill him given how unfit and how old he is.

But best of all, if he was in the slammer, he'd be muzzled and out of politics - you cant run for the presidency from jail.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not a crime, it's just one that I personally don't care much about. If they trace a bunch of secret money flowing through warlords to buy Trump's favor, that's the kind of campaign finance violation I care deeply about. If it's to cover up something embarrassing, well, OK, if it's a crime, keep the indictment option open, but these are not usually years-in-prison things.

Are federal prosecutors even pursuing this?
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Old 28th March 2021, 04:26 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Ah, the Tucker "I lie too often to be taken seriously" Carlson defense.
Wasn't it the Fox lawyers who said that of Carlson? While it might become known as the Carlson defense, you have to be clear it was not Carlson making the claim.

Just like the Twinkie Defense was not based on murdering someone because they ate Twinkies.
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Old 29th March 2021, 04:21 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not a crime, it's just one that I personally don't care much about. If they trace a bunch of secret money flowing through warlords to buy Trump's favor, that's the kind of campaign finance violation I care deeply about. If it's to cover up something embarrassing, well, OK, if it's a crime, keep the indictment option open, but these are not usually years-in-prison things.

Are federal prosecutors even pursuing this?
Not 100% sure, but this article seems to hint that Cyrus Vance might be

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-jr-nail-trump

Eight interviews with Michael Cohen would tend to back that up.
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Old 29th March 2021, 04:56 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Wasn't it the Fox lawyers who said that of Carlson? While it might become known as the Carlson defense, you have to be clear it was not Carlson making the claim.

Just like the Twinkie Defense was not based on murdering someone because they ate Twinkies.
the Chewbacca defense wasn't argued by Chewbacca
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Old 29th March 2021, 05:09 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Wasn't it the Fox lawyers who said that of Carlson? While it might become known as the Carlson defense, you have to be clear it was not Carlson making the claim.

Just like the Twinkie Defense was not based on murdering someone because they ate Twinkies.

Exactly. The Twinkies, not unlike Trump himself, were a symptom, not the disease.

OTOH, I think there is room to argue that Carlson is to some degree the disease, if perhaps also a symptom.
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